 Hello and happy Sunday everyone. I'm Willa Taylor. I'm the Walter Director of Education and Engagement at the Goodman Theatre in Chicago. And I'm very excited to welcome all of you to what I'm sure is going to be a very riveting conversation today, doing it for ourselves. And this discussion is in support of our production of Martin Yusuf Zavari's Leilina, which is running one more week at the Goodman. It's a beautiful play that actually started its journey with us as part of future labs during the pandemic, and then went on to new stages for our new play development series and now is gracing our own stage. And this is a beautiful, wonderful rumination on the importance of family and the importance of being who you are and living your truth. And I'm so thrilled that we can have this conversation and discussion, especially because both the playwright and the director of our production are here. Before we get started, I want to thank all of the sponsors of the production and all of the artists, the artisans and the administrators at the Goodman Theatre that make these kinds of events possible. I also want to give a huge shout out to our co-presenter, Silk Road Rising, which is a community-centered arts organization rooted in Pan-Asian, North African and Muslim experiences. Storytelling, digital media and arts education, Silk Road Rising challenges disinformation, cultivates new narratives, and promotes a culture of continuous learning. And if you haven't seen their work, you really need to. I also want to thank HowlRound, which is making this live stream possible for us and will archive this discussion as well. HowlRound is a free and open platform for theater makers worldwide that amplifies progressive, disruptive ideas about the art form and about facility and facilitates conversation and connection between diverse practitioners. I particularly want to give a special shout out and thanks to Jamil Khoury, who really put this panel together and made the creation of this discussion such a wonderful, wonderful experience. So I will get out of the way and I will turn it over to Jamil, who will introduce all of the panelists. Thank you so much, Willa. Thank you, Goodman Theatre and HowlRound and the fabulous colleagues who are assembled here this late afternoon, early evening, depending on which time zone. It's really a thrill to be in conversation with all of you. I'd like to start by asking you to introduce yourselves. And we will do so alphabetically by last name. So let's start with Adam. Hi everyone. My name is Adam Ashraf El Sayg. I'm a theater maker, playwright, screenwriter and dramaturg and I'm an immigrant from Egypt originally. I feel weird about the term Egyptian American, but I guess at some point I have to start calling myself that. I see him pronouns. I'm New York based and I'm just so excited to be in this room with so many people that I love and so many. I've been a huge fan of this play and part of its development from very early in its life and so it's just such an honor to be here. Thank you, Jamil. Hi. My name is Sivan Batat. I use she and they pronouns. I'm the director of Lealina and in general I'm a theater director and a community organizer. I live in New York City on Lenape land. My family is Iraqi Jewish on one side of my people came from Baghdad with many, many generations living there and Ashkenazi Jewish on my mother's side. And I blend many, many experiences and in one lived body that I bring to my work. And I'm really grateful to be in this conversation and to invite you to see the play Lealina if you can. And in addition to my work as a director I'm also the associate artistic director of North theater company, which is a partner organization with Silk Road, and we are Middle Eastern theater company in New York City. So that's me really excited to be in this conversation with so many friends and colleagues I'll pass it back to you, Jamil. Thank you, everyone. Hello, hello, everyone, he him his. I'm a theater director writer and arts leader currently I am the associate artistic director and director of artistic programming at Oregon Shakespeare Festival, which is a long fancy title to see, say I oversee the role of all of our repertory in person productions and our community productions that both take place on our campus and off site. In relation to this panel I was born and raised in Turkey but I've been in the US, I came for college and state so about 23 years I've been here. I've been here longer than I've been back home. In terms of other titles I guess that are relevant here I'm a founding steering committee member of the Middle Eastern North African Theater Makers Alliance and advocacy group that's trying to sort of carve out more space for our stories in the American canon. And I was a founder of Maya directors a consultancy for artists and organizations wanting to engage Middle Eastern North African and South Asian stories. And lastly, I am a resident very proud resident artist of Golden Thread Productions in San Francisco, where I was on staff for many, many years which is the first theater company in the US. And that is devoted to the Middle East. So, and I'm calling in from Ashton, Oregon ancestral lands of the Shasta Takala peoples. Sarah. Thank you. So good to be here. Honestly, I don't even know if I can identify as an actor or a director which would have been what I would have said but moon lighted for a long time. And part of the reason I'm on this panel is to talk about what it looks like when you try to balance both a theater life and other life. I'm an actor and director on Iranian American born in Iran and connected primarily to Golden Thread Productions as a performer, a board member, and then a director Bay Area based currently in Oakland and very happy to be here. Thank you. And finally Martin. Hi everyone, I'm Martin Zabati. I use he or they pronouns. I am an actor and a playwright. I am currently in Chicago, which is my second home place on unseated lands of the Potawatomi. And but I'm currently also a late base. So I'm here working on the play and I'll be going back soon. I recently relocated to Los Angeles. Oh, I'm from Iraq. I was born in Baghdad Iraq and also have been here for about 20 years like you ever. Great. Well, thank all of you. And just a little background on myself my father was from Syria and my mother is American born of Polish and Slovak heritage so I am of mixed Arab and Slavic ancestry and that places me within the Swana context and also in our broader south road context that we love to talk about. So let's get started with a group question and please feel free to, to, you know, chime in that our global perceptions of being Southwest Asian North African and queer, all too often render our experiences through lenses of persecution, rejection and escape. The Swana heritage and queerness are eternally irreconcilable, forever at odds and bound to tragedy. As diaspora based theater artists who embody these intersections. How do you respond to these double negative depictions without trivializing or whitewashing some very real challenges and struggles. And if anyone would like to raise their hand and respond to. I'm happy to. I didn't raise my hand. Sorry. Yeah, I, this question's interesting I was, I found it a little challenging as I was trying to think about what it is that I actually do to respond to, to those negative implications and I think I reached that my answer is nothing. I, I have discovered over the course I mean over the course of my career as an artist and being in the US but really heavily over the course of this plays development and working so closely with Siobhan on kind of curating and building rooms that this play gets to live in that. I think what we've done to kind of disrupt and dispute that is immense nuance and specificity. So we've spent most of our time thinking about how to tell the story in a way that is so specific that it becomes universal. And because of that, we haven't really had to focus on those negative implications right like I think we've been in some situations where we've been asked to speak about those things. And I'm just like, I'm not going to talk about what the play is not going to talk about what the play is. And so in doing that, we just create this safe and specific and nuanced perspective. And when I say safe, I guess I meant like brave and protected. Yeah, I think that's my, that's what I reached is my answer to that that specific. Thank you. Thank you for that. Yeah. I would say for me, it's and I totally agree with you, Martin. This is a question that's always a little difficult for me because when it and this is not unique to Muslim or queer or swan identities anybody who's coming in with any sort of marginalized identity that is misunderstood or purposefully misrepresented by the mainstream. You're, you find yourself constantly creating against something right to disprove something to discredit something. And it is actually a pretty dehumanizing and harmful exercise to put yourself in that's, you know, situation because you're basically feeling like you are bending or editing or strategizing about who you are or what your experiences are so that you do not add to a narrative that you didn't create. Right. And it's, I say this often, you know, in my directing, which is my main way of existing in the American theater, although I'm also a writer. As a director, you know, we work in a communal art form we create communally. We are work is seen and received communally so as a director you have to be aware of what's in the space in which you are making the play or you're sharing the play so I don't want to sound naive like I don't care what people think about my work because that's just like not actually how theater works in my mind. So I do. I tried my best to be a bit of a buffer between the room and that feeling of being watched or that burden of representation so that the artists that I'm collaborating with are creating, as you said, Martin from a place of who they are not who they're not right that they can actually just be and as an artistic leader and a programmer, which takes up more of my time these days because American, you know, talk to run a theater right now if you heard is I'm constantly looking for creating spaces in which artists don't have to translate themselves and that's for our people. However, we define that in this umbrella that we're sitting under swan and queer, I think in this one or the menaza Mina Middle East, you know, we depends on the day. But for everybody to be able to come in and sort of define who they are and be in their full humanity and start from there. And because I know that when that happens, it's good for everyone, including those people who are not coming from that identity right the conversation is more interesting. I think that is stronger and more impactful. It's funnier, sadder, more moving all those things and I've seen that happen at OSF under the work in the work that we've been able to do in the last four years so it's been. It's been nice to be able to be on these panels and I'm like if you do that it works. So I can actually say that so that's sort of the two ways and depending on my artistry or leadership positions which are related but separate. You know, those are sort of some of the ways I think about it but for me like you Martin like as a like artist. I'm never thinking about what I'm trying to disprove I'm always trying to figure out what I'm saying and how I'm saying, if that makes sense. Absolutely. Would anyone else. Yes, Yvonne. Yeah, I'll respond I found what you shared everyone just now so inspiring as a director and such a beautiful way to capture the work that we do as directors that we show up in the room to be sort of a conduit between the the broader picture on the outside so that the people in the room who are stepping on stage or creating designs don't have to like almost so they don't have to worry about it. Like so I can say, let me let me hold that one let me worry about that one let me think about those broader implications, because it's always that sort of forest to the trees process of directing where you can sort of step back and say, what is the overall picture we're telling here what is the overall story we're telling. So the actors can be free to live inside of the scenes in their deepest truth and so the writer can be free to live in their deepest truth and I can say this overall story that I'm seeing. Let me make sure it's telling the story we most want to tell and so you know that's a way to be in deep conversation with the social implications of our identities and of the work that we make while also staying grounded in the presence in the room and you know, we can't pretend that we're not like you said we're not so naive as to pretend we're not aware of these realities and of course grounding first and foremost and what is this character want with their what does their heart want from them right now, what do they need in this moment in their lives like that's deeply human and regardless of their queerness regardless of their swanniness like their deep human question at the center of every moment on stage is what is what sort of guides us right and so then the broader question of representational politic is something that I get to take on as the director and zoom out and step back and ask questions about are we telling the story in the way that is in most profound conversation with this politic that may may or may not exist in the world. And so like I perhaps I shoulder that burden too much on my own, but I think we all as artists can perhaps shoulder it in different ways and say what our part to play inside of that is. And I guess the other thing I wanted to add to this to this is that, like, regardless of these the double next negatives and intersection like queer people, we are everywhere. Like, we're everywhere we're all over the world we're in every community we're in every culture, we exist everywhere and so this, you know, like the intersection you know I've had people say to me that I'm too much right or too much of this or too much of that and because I'm I hold this and I hold this identity isn't I shared on a beautiful podcast called there's a podcast called the queer Arabs podcast which if you don't know about it's lovely, they profile and interview lots of queer folks from our community. And I shared in that setting that I think I came to the deep understanding that I'm a queer person and an Arab person on like the same day as ridiculous as that sounds like I knew that I had been living inside of a queer, possibly labeled as queer living inside of a life as an Arab person but I had never been so comfortable as to claim those things as my own, until I could de center oppression at the center piece of that I always felt like why haven't suffered enough to claim that or I haven't suffered enough to claim that. And yet it's my truth and I was afraid to claim them and so I think what I'm trying to say is just that we're here and we're, we're in all communities, and in telling Middle Eastern stories, we will inherently be telling queer stories because there are queer people everywhere. And that's just what I wanted to add on on that piece I don't know if it's in direct response to your question but definitely love that. Adam or Sarah did you want to. Yeah, I mean I also have been there, there is, I really relate to everything everyone said I'm, I'm also often cognizant that if I like throw a thing and like my social media pool and ask 10 random people. What do you know about Adam someone who like knows me very peripherally queer and Arab is probably going to be one of the first things that come up. And that's something I'm proud of, and that's something I don't I don't attempt to negate at the same time it's. It can be somewhat demoralizing when it feels like that is the only lens through which people want you to speak explicitly because anything I like if I'm speaking about incarceration if I'm speaking about immigration they are going to be through the same thing they are from my lens, even if I don't explicitly invoke that and I find that there is there's often an attempt and I will say in our field that like being sequestered to speaking through certain frameworks that I find and and then even in a statement like the one I'm making right now. The fear is being is that I'm rejecting these things which I'm really not I just, it's not the only lenses that I want to be speaking through. Thank you. I love everything everybody's already said, but specifically over in something you said about who they are, not who they're not. I want to go back from an extended Indian family destination wedding in Bangkok. Think big think multi day think Bollywood 24 seven. And after years of attending these events, kind of like shrouded in like the simplest girly outfits or whatever I just decided to just show up. I wore what I usually wear to work which are suits. I put on show, you know, quick up pajamas and men's masculine presenting style, and I just felt myself so deeply. And it was, it was, it was seen. And, you know, trying to figure out which identity you step forward in my queer self my artistic self my finance self my Iranian self the Zoroastrian self the Muslim blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I think about my kid is now going to add Jewish and American and raised by two moms, and we can keep hyphenating. But to be able to really show up, just in your full self to be able to call on one element where you can identify, not see this code switching but really an opportunity to connect with someone. That's been, that's been like it as I'm getting older as we're raising a family. It's something I'm so grateful for. I don't have to code and think about who I'm going to be in this room. I'm, you know, I'm in a space where I can actually just be the full self. And there's no 100% anybody I'm going to fully identify with. The opportunity is there's a segment of anybody I can identify with. And so I hope we can. Yeah, I'm excited for that for, and I see that in the opportunity of a queer identity of a Middle Eastern identity. I mean, all of these such rich insights. So the next two questions are for Martin and C bond. And the first is as the playwright and director of Laelina, respectively, currently enjoying its world premiere production. And I believe one more week of opportunities to take in this really lovely, beautiful piece of theater. How has this collaboration informed your commitment to the idea that representation matters. Um, yeah. Well, I think Siobhan and I mostly we communicate non verbally, you just kind of look at each other, and then we have the same thoughts. And so in a lot of ways, that's another thing I hate to keep using this as a as an answer to these questions, but that's another way in where that kind of came as the bare minimum. We, Siobhan and I both very much understood kind of in sync, what this play needed in terms of people around it whether that be actors designers. And obviously, in, in terms of actors, we knew that they were going to be swan actors designers not necessarily we were trying to craft this kind of big room so in a way the the representation aspect just kind of happened naturally because Siobhan and I were going to prioritize the voices who this play is trying to prioritize and this production is trying to prioritize so. And that created for, you know, for I think a richer room because we didn't spend time talking about, you know, if what again what we were like not going to focus on we sit we just simply use all of our time to make the play richer and make the experience rich for everybody and you know, and I know I'm kind of simplifying that because Siobhan and I went through like a two and a half three months like team building process pre production and we spent a lot of time talking about who is going to be in in the room and who was going to be bringing the story to life so I don't mean to minimize that it. We handled it I think with care and respect and the way that I hope it's always handled. But then when we got in the room, we didn't have to think about that anymore because we did kind of we did that work, and then it was just about how do we make this play happen and it's also a new play so it's about picking folks who are going to be doing it who are ready for that kind of. Okay, new scene. You know, like everything short of a new character, right like new scene new rearrangements foot and even now post production I'm already drafting a new draft of the play so. Yeah, that's, that's I think one way we tackle that. And that I think. Yeah, Martin and I, I think, have discovered in our, our collaborative process, like a shared language that I think has been really, really significant and that would be like one reason why representation matters right in like us being up in partnership on this play. There are certain things that need not be explained that need not need, do not require our breath or energy to understand between us and I think that in a creative process when so much is so vulnerable is really, really beautiful can can be a beautiful offering it's not always necessary and also it's a beautiful gift when it can be and I think one example I'll give also in how representation showed up in our process in a way that was an enormous gift. So we'll shout out our brilliant intimacy choreographer Gloria Mseh Patrelli who was, you know, when Martin and I were looking at just the nature of the play. There's a lot of intimacy in this play and a lot of different ways right there's actual lip to lip kissing between lovers and there's also just like vulnerability and intimacy between hearts there's, there's, you know, father kissing his son on the cheek you know there are ways that Middle Eastern people, not across the board always but that we relate to one another that may not be culturally trans transferable like without speaking right and to have someone from our community who understands that profoundly and who's such a talented intimacy choreographer in the room to be able to do that without having to like, explain me having to be like, actually in Middle Eastern culture sometimes men are really comfortable kissing each other on the cheek even if they don't have a romantic you know relationship like there's just ways that obviously I don't mean this in a gender sensualist way or in any type of sensualist way about our communities and just ways that we might physically interact that might be a little different than, than other communities and having that cultural specificity in the room meant that we could play in a different kind of way that the actors felt free to play that the actors felt free like they were being culturally understood that they were legible inside of myself and the intimacy choreographers work and so that's just like one example of the way that that might show up in the room that allows us a different kind of freedom where it's like, you know, this is this is a way that two people might might engage with one another in this culture and, and, you know, there are some very very culturally specific things in the play that the play opens with a which is an Assyrian wedding dance that is like celebrated at Assyrian weddings, and that's a very very culturally and musically specific dance it's a very specific rhythm it's a very specific step to have people in the room, whether they were on stage who had danced a giga at an Assyrian wedding is an enormous blessing because they know what this what the spiritual with the spiritual experience of that is yeah you can learn the steps, but can you know what it is to be with 150 Assyrians on a dance floor and dance the giga I'm not a Syrian myself. I don't know that experience I know my versions of it a horror a debka I know the versions that I have lived. And so to have the people in the room who do know what a giga feels like right that those details. I think enrich the foundation of the play in a way to not make it more culturally specific but rather in making it more culturally specific we make it more universal we give everyone the particular thing that they can say, oh I can see these people are dancing this dance that means the world to them and has been this dance and their culture and their community that they get to tell themselves through. I know what that is in my family or I know what that is in my life so there are ways in which that that representation just shows up in the in the nature of the work that we make. And in nature of the way I can, I, you know, sometimes I joke that I like I can give a note to one of these actors by being like, it needs to be a little more. You know, and like that's a culturally specific note that I might not be able to give in different settings so there's there's blessings like that a bounding and we were able to assemble a team with many, many different viewpoints to help us sort of tell that story. And then what are you learning from audience reactions to the play and I know there've been several opportunities for talk back discussions and so forth, and particularly the reactions of swanna and queer audiences. Do you want me to start this time margin. Okay, well, I am. It's a delight to see audiences gasp at play at this play, and there are gaspable there are a few gasp moments of the play and it is just a, it's really feels good when you're in an audience, and a room full of people guests, feels really good or gets really uncomfortable and doesn't know what's going to you know those are really just delightful sensations in a room full of people. But our swanna and queer audiences I mean it's, I don't even know how to capture it in words like the the scale of what it has been to talk to some folks in our in our and at intermission in the lobby you know, just people turning around saying, my grandmother has that couch my dad grew up with that exact I have the set right behind me so you can see this is the bar that set because they're queer people in Iraq. This is the set of Act one of the play, which is set in Baghdad and you know we've had people pointing at things on the set Oh that is exactly from I know that that style I know that look I know exactly how that should feel this feels exactly right. And then in the second act we jump forward 17 years to Skokie Illinois and many of the characters who you met in Act one have learned more about themselves at this point and identify as queer people. And so you see this in the same space in the same breath you see people living in a homeland that they consider a homeland of Iraq, and living their culturally specific rich lives and then you see them in the same exact space living those same culturally specific same culturally rich lives in their, in their deepest truth as queer people and you get to see it all in the same space and in the same universe and in the same architecture. And I think that's tremendously been tremendously beautiful for our queer and so on audiences, and many folks who I've talked to specifically, and it's not always simple even coming to the play or knowing the nature of the play. But it's, I know for those who've been with us, of which there have been many, many. It's meant an enormous amount, and they've seen themselves represented so that has felt really beautiful Martin what do you want to add. Yeah, all of those things just you worded them beautifully and I think one of the most beautiful takeaways for me has been, which is, you know, when people ask me why did you write the play it is for this reason and when younger people say, I didn't grow up in my home country but Act one made me think about what my life would have been like. I, if I did an act to represents more of my life, and then older folks saying, I lived through Act one world and act to made me think about the things that I've been missing, or the things that I haven't done when I moved here. I love that kind of intergenerational kind of like where you find yourself in the play because the play is so expansive in terms of time. That's been really beautiful to speak with some, and I don't even think honestly most of the older folks, I don't know if they're, you know, queer or not but still really beautiful to say like to to feel like I feel represented and I also feel like I've changed about what I think and what I have taught myself and what I've told myself over the years. Yeah. Maybe I'll spoil one line in the play which is just like there's an older sibling character who's much older than the younger generation and one of the younger characters uses they them pronouns and the, the older brothers is learning trying to figure out how to use those pronouns over the course of the play having his own set of judgments about those pronouns, having his own experience with those pronouns, and at the end of the play he turns to them and says, they look beautiful using it like the second person using it for the third. Just trying, but trying, but earnestly with his whole heart with his biggest open heart, he's trying and really trying to respect them and I think that moment really touches a lot of people because it's tender and gentle to the older generation that is working on learning and coming around and it's also tender and gentle to the younger generation in how we bring our communities and our ancestors and our elders or our older communities in and say hey this is how I'm living my life right now how can I share that with you. It's I think it's a moment that resonates on both sides of that spectrum and in sweet ways. Spoiler sorry. I have to say the evening that I attended there were a lot of so on and queer people in the house. So there was something just really extraordinary about watching the play, and watching the audience watch the play. And, you know that that hunger for representation, I think on the part of, of so many people in the house or to see to see themselves, you know, represented the way that they are, you know, it's it just reaffirms why all of us do the work that we do. You know that ability to either see yourself or somehow perceive yourself in the experiences on stage and, you know, what happens to you internally as a result and that was just it was it was very meaningful to to experience. I'm going to move on to Adam. Adam, you two are a very accomplished playwright and you grapple with themes of Arabness and queerness, your work very much expands the global story around our very existence. What role does activism play in your artistic process, and how has that role shifted over time. Thank you for that question it's it's it's really evolved over time I used to I used to be up the lens and understanding of art as activism I over time my perception of the intersection of those and how they are practicing in relation to each other and I speak for for my own experience like my own understanding of how I define these things for myself and not how I'm not for anyone else. I view my work as very much influenced by my engagement with the work of activists, my volunteering in spaces where activism occurs my interest in certain more support of certain causes and advocacy. I also view it as very distinct from activism I don't think that what I, I think of myself as a, ultimately a storyteller or someone who's interested in interrogating discourse. I'm less interested in creating work to push for a certain message or a certain belief I'm not. It's interesting where I'm currently with golden thread have a commission which is an adaptation of political prisoners life in Egypt and something we've been contending with is. How do you depict someone who is who is actually living in a prison right now is doing activism. And what does it mean to tell a story that is flawed where this person is flawed what does it mean to tell someone as complex someone and yet still and yet still having an awareness that there isn't there is real life ramifications to that and so I personally have come to identify with my work being influenced by activism and influenced, and I would say I'm in the business of changing people's minds and hearts or changes people's minds through their hearts, but I am not. I, I think I. I don't view myself as in the state doing the same type of work or in the same type of practice as someone who is a protester or someone who is advocating for policy change or someone who is in a hunger strike inside a prison. I think that's that is a very different type of experience it's. There was a time where I would say, I don't see myself as as doing something that is as valuable as that I think like doing that judgment or comparison actually feels reductive and so I'm just going to say they're just they're very in conversation and influenced by each other but distinct and probably more about posing questions then offering answers. Right. And, and I think your work does that so so beautifully. Thank you. Absolutely, thank you. Moving along to everyone, you have played and continue to play a very critical role in evolving and promoting swana narratives on America's stages. As you know it is often assumed that a queer swana theater maker has a responsibility to challenge racism within the broader culture and queer phobia within our swana communities. How do you unpack the question of responsibility. Thank you for that. I mean it's so funny, Jimmy, I was thinking about, you know, I was such. I still sort of think of myself as one of the babies of the Mina theater movement because I was working with Taranj and you and Andrea and you know, these folks who are like 1015 years ahead of me. I'm realizing slowly coming into my own as you know somebody who is holding it like a second generation kind of role in our communities. And so that's that's still something that you know, I'm sort of getting comfortable with. But the question of responsibility is so interesting to me because I think the question of responsibility the way we all have to be responsible for the stories we're telling the choices we're making. And what their impact in the world right like that accountability is really important but I also try really hard not to judge people's choices to tell certain stories or not I'm not in the business of telling other people what to say what to do. Right, but I want to create a situation in which I think a responsibility can be really weaponized so that we're eating each other rather than fighting the system. Because the problem with a play that I might find problematic isn't always that it exists, the fact that other plays aren't given resource at the same time to create a much wider range of stories from or about our communities so that they can. The audience can engage with multitude of narratives right so sometimes I find that if I spent too much time of my creative energy in fighting. In response to either creating from a place of responsibility or fighting another narrative due to response lack of responsibility that I'm actually taking away resource money time and creative energy from more stories being created right. And that was something that I feel like when I was at golden thread as a staff member I was part of, I was sort of leading their new work efforts for a long time. That felt really good because I was like oh that place terrible. Let me find ways to resource and give space to these 20 plays, you know that will in some way go out there and change the narrative in a different way right. And I'm not going to you know we do need to call people out we do need to fight the good fight don't get me wrong I'm being a little bit polemic and oversimplified to make a point. But yeah I for myself as an artist, you know in terms of outside of my advocacy work in terms of the work that I like to create myself. I actually, and I'm very thankful to Taranje Ghizarian the founding artistic director of golden thread for like, I, she sort of artistically raised me for my 16 years on staff and as a resident artist at Golden thread. Now that mantle is taken by Sahara staff beautifully it was the new artistic director. And I have a spot I feel like I've spent the last 23 years in this field 24 years in this field, like, building a spine for myself, so that as I'm making choices for myself. I'm sort of checking to see if it feels good. And I mean that not necessarily an intellectual way because whenever I've actually limited my judgment of my decisions or responsibility from an intellectual so sense. It usually gets pretty capitalistic pretty quickly gets pretty colonized pretty quickly, and then I'm sort of confused pretty quickly and find myself going down past because I'm also like everyone on this call. So I want to make it in the big white American theater right and so I want to sort of push for our stuff I do feel like my success can be tied to bringing other people along with me, but I got to do a gut heart check. And that whenever I've actually listened to my gut heart gut slash heart together. I find that I usually the responsibility just take care takes care of itself because I can actually stand by the things that are in the play that feel true to me. Right. And that's the thing is like I think we are all deciding in various ways to stand under these various umbrellas and being communication with each other collaboration with each other in advocacy together Jimmy you and I have certainly like been in so many rooms where we were in the good are still in rooms fighting that good fight. But it's important that like for me responsibility is such an individualized thing I and I, for me, that's what I like to call for from artists who are making work that like, you got to make your gut tells you that this is right. And if you do. Okay, we might disagree. And the other thing I will say this is the hardest part of this responsibility question is, we're all Middle Eastern North African Swana, like argument is part of our culture. Like, like disagreement and like passionate hand waving disagreement and banging heads and then like fighting and then walking away and coming and having coffee and then like being fine like that is built into the fabric of our cultural narrative and cultural process. And I feel like because of the context of the American theater around us we don't always allow ourselves to do the thing are very beings and upbringing and cultures have built into us. And that is something recently and I'm on the West Coast where like argument is even more problematized you know everybody needs to feel good all the time. It's say like, it's been actually a real recent last couple years I'm like, can't we just fight this out but can't we just argue this out. And I don't mean like disrespect I don't mean, you know, you know, like personal attack I mean really is your meal you and I disagree about a play. Right. Can we argue about it. And like can we can that actually be at the center of our process as me know folks is that can that be the thing that our community brings to the American theater, like argument and difficult dialogue. That's like our expertise that's what we've been doing for centuries. Let's teach these Americans how to do that. And this sort of like passion towards this so that question of responsibility. I have my own take on it but I also am like, let's argue about that and figure it out for ourselves individually out of my, I'm sorry that I Oh no sorry I was I think I was going to cut you up I was, I want to like go a step further even and say like argue, argue it out and we don't have to agree, and we don't have to want to have the same artistic lens and collaborate and we could still like appreciate and exist in this room, like, Martin, can I share this last May we were in DC. Martin was acting in my world premiere for Golden Thread we were in a remount and the cast of drowning in Cairo and Sahar the director of Golden Thread who was also directing the play, and I were in her hotel room and we got it to this very heated that lasted an hour and a half, and involved a lot of hand waving. And we did not end up agreeing in the end I think we still don't agree on the thing we were arguing about that day and we were all still friends and I've been texting and feel great about it since and we'll probably collaborate. I don't I think there's a, there's a consensus model that is very that I think like exists in the nonprofit American theater that is like, not always realistic and feels like it, it attempts to assume that the right thing will win as if that's something we can all agree on. And, yeah, and I just I, I want to name that that's not always true. And that's okay. Absolutely. And, and thank you both. Everyone, I think I speak for a lot of us when I thank you for all of the advocacy work that you do and all of you know people really feel you have their backs and so that goes a long way and means a great deal. So moving on to Sarah. After years of involvement in both swan and queer theater making, primarily as an actor in the San Francisco Bay area. You started paring down your involvement about five years ago. And with the benefit of distance and hindsight. How do you believe the commitment to creating change through art has succeeded and fallen short. And what could have been done differently. I know it's a big question. Thank you so much for inviting me to be part of this conversation and this esteemed panel. I'm going to jump into that answer but before I do I want to globalize this conversation about argument and consensus. I often found myself as a board member reminding Torange and the Golden Thread Group. But the conversations we're having are not within just the theater world. This is larger sad and your point about nonprofit. I could layer point about any any industry any space. I think each culture can add an element. Absolutely let's let's argue let's have those difficult conversations. But as my Jewish American therapist wife reminds me I can't get away with just saying I'm from a culture that argues there has to be repair as well. And the ability to pause and say okay I've blown off steam I've allowed myself to really get aggravated and I'm safe with that. But you're not safe with that okay. How do I make it so that I can have this this space and you can begin to learn to be in this space as well. But that we can move through it because otherwise we're just arguing and arguing and that was a part of me that I was very very proud of. But that she reminded me and she has really educated me in being able to balance. And now we have an extremely verbose five year old who was intellectually and verbally very mature and emotionally very mature. And the other thing I wanted to touch on is. You said gut and heart and of course we all know jigger jigger the liver is such a part of the Middle Eastern identity of another place you can pull from and bring up all your emotions. So adding that to the for the piece on. I already touched on this I was born in Iran and our part of the family because for many Iranians at least but many immigrant stories their waves of immigration and we were second wave. So I came here when I was 10. And being part of an immigrant family with all the struggles that came with it. Being an actor was not on the table. I couldn't be an actor I couldn't be in the arts. So eventually and it's not even a thing that was like it was that's your hobby. Good for you. That's your hobby. So yeah I went and got an MBA and ended up in finance I mean social finance I do balance that part. My work is focused on lending capital to small businesses, particularly businesses of color women, immigrant, or starting up and using entrepreneurship as a way to immigrate and as a way to assimilate into the American dream. And as as work became more and more demanding balancing work and life, which is already getting very hard, made it so that I had to be very selective about the pieces I was going to be working on, which as an artist really takes the risk out of it. And without risk, there's really not a lot of, there's, there's not a lot of potential for growth, which is the same in finance to write, but, but yeah, taking the risk out of it made it so that it really was very limiting. So I was already struggling with that. When we knew we were then going to have our first child we have to. And the last piece I actually did, thanks to my wonderful friend Evan was about an Arab American couple who were expecting their first child. And they were trying to think of the name, whether to lead into the child's Arab identity or not. And it was a question my wife and I were also struggling with. I really wanted our child and our children to have very Iranian names. And she struggled because they're, they're part American very much so so you know how does that identity show up because they have my last name. The piece was called a is for Ali by savon green. And it was part of the reorient group presentation and it really I know everyone chose it, especially in us. Thank you. It was such a gift. And it's such a great memory. But I chose after that piece really kind of pinpointed for me being away nights, weekends. I chose to be very present for my family. I couldn't balance all three of those things. And the attention it needed, especially the discipline as an artist that I felt was required to not only be present in the project but to grow. I thought it was better serve to allow those who had more capacity and space. And to be very honest in a space that's already limited or to be representative I thought I couldn't be taking up a seat if I wasn't going to be very holy present. It's a decision I come back to a lot. And I wonder whether I've made the right one. I've been blessed to have wonderful friends, like everyone, like to dange to dange and then moebrahim and a community of theater makers that continue to tether me to the world. But there may come again a season where I can kind of step into the full identity of an artist. But right now it seems very peripheral and I'm grateful to be able to jump in in moments like these and in moments where I can can see a wonderful show. And I hope that the beauty of the American experience as I touched on a little bit earlier is that these hyphenated identities aren't like cut off forever. But at some point I can come back and step into wherever I may be able to pick up, but to be able to commit to the discipline so that I can grow, grow, grow beyond any talent or opportunity just grow and keep experimenting. I hope that answers it. Yes, and I want to add that, you know, we welcome any opportunity for you to jump back in to to art making and very much look forward to that. Thank you. So our our final question for for this discussion is also a group question. The title of this discussion is doing it for ourselves, so on and queer in the global story. I think we all envision a world in which swan swannana swannanness sorry, and queerness in all their varieties and complexities are seamlessly integrated within global storytelling. I think we all want our work to be the representation that we want to see. So with that said, and with permission to be bold and expansive. What are your hopes for the next 10 years of plays movies TV shows that include queer swanna characters and themes. So yeah it's a big question. Yes, Adam. Oh, Martin go ahead. I mean it really, I think it comes down to what everyone said earlier. There are so many swanna play, there are swanna plays that I like, but where it where I have complex feelings about what they represent because it is you know, the one of two plays that I think will be done in a regional theater that year, or I think that's that's maybe not that's reductive, but I think I, it really would be wonderful to get to a point where, where character where me characters can be flawed or where are flawed I think there are many characters that are flawed I mean I think more lately now has brilliantly flawed and beautifully flawed. Mina characters but I, I think I can speak for myself when I say that I in writing. In the finding myself, having to define myself but what I'm not but rather, after writing a draft, being conscious of how is this going to be received because there is also a larger bias and there is a larger projecting let's be honest that I find that non swanna folks can sometimes make on to our work. And I think that the answer to that is, I mean, is just more narratives and more stories that allow for that nuance for that complexity and so. Yeah, I really want more Muslim and Arab and more queer villains and superheroes and, you know, terrible people and I don't know people whose politics I disagree with. And yeah that's what I want the next. So write those characters. Just jumping off of that. Kind of along the same kind of thought of complexity and abundance, I guess, I, but this point, I'm a baby play right and so although you know I've had to do a lot of press opportunities for this play that it's something I'm new to and I. I'm not articulate when talking about my own work I usually let see fun talk about the play. So it's always interesting to be in those conversations and I hope that in the next 10 years. Swana and or swan a queer and or just queer artists can talk about their work, as it relates to the work and to the people and the world that they're trying to build, and that not all of the questions that we are faced with and the things were left to unpack and think all come from as a queer person. How do you navigate this as a swan a person. How do you navigate this. And I find that no one ever asks me like, what plays do you want to write, what genres do you want to explore. Why are some of these care like who are some of these characters modeled after. I'm often asked, as a refugee, how do you feel about your work being amplified and I'm like, great, really great. It's really great. I wrote it because I just want to be like, but I wrote it because of this and. That's that's me being reductive because I have had some great kind of few great experiences. So I wish that for all of us that we are able to talk about our art as anyone else is allowed to and often talks about their art which is the heart and the creation and the conception of it and not as a marker for diversity. Yeah, I'll add to that. Like, I want the craft to be at the center right like that's the that's the thing it's I want the craft to be at the center in answering this question I'm like, my hopes for the next 10 years of play movies and TV shows that include queer swan a characters and themes is that queer swan a people are involved in making them like I really that's perhaps that's an overly simple answer but I really do hope queer swan a people are involved in and making money from making them like. You know, inshallah there will be money for for our community to that is a big a big and important gift and so you know and well deserved so craft at the center that those people should be telling those stories. And that there can be nourishment and sustenance from that work. Any other yes. Yeah, I would say so many thoughts. I want it all different, but the, for me, a couple of things I think I want to be on a panel with the same group of people where Sivan Sivan and I get to talk about like how we like to create space in our rehearsal hall, how we actually collaborate with designers and, you know, like, I feel that a lot of my expertise as an artist is limited to content in what people want to talk to me about for directing what people assume I'm interested in directing and, you know, so those kind of things. I'm just always excited. I hope that we're able to be a craft or style or approach or process that those things. And in a way I'm super curious. It took me a long time to actually start identifying what in my work like visually was Middle Eastern beyond the obvious, you know, like I know which rug is the correct rug to use for this Iraqi play. And that's such a reductive way to think about the visual worlds I create, which is a big part of my work. Right. I work visually and as such, like, I've had to, I had to create that opportunity to figure that out and be in conversation with people, myself, because I do happen to have this leadership as well. So I do have the luxury of making that happen for myself, but I wish that for the, you know, college student who's graduating now that like when they are in my position 20 something years from now, that they're having a different conversation about their artistry. That's not just content or activism or representation based. Similarly, I'll get more specific Sivan you said like I hope they're making money and they're, you know, I think like this is the third play I know in the last two years there have been so many swana pieces done all over the country and this is the third one I know where the director is also swana for these larger theater companies Lord and New York right. I programmed and directed unseen shawty directed selling Kabul at signature theater in DC, I think. That's it, right. So, and I just want. I do. I don't think it's a swana director should direct a swana work just because they're swana, but I do feel that that's as an artistic community something we have to sort of start talking about and figuring out how we approach on the flip side of that, what I would like, you know, I know Sivan you did like a workshop of a big American musical at roundabout. You know, I was supposed to do Yerma Lorca's piece with in Canada switches beautiful adaptation which got canceled that was due to financial troubles. You know, I was supposed to do glass menagerie at OSF couple of years back which got didn't even get announced because of the pandemic. You know, I love Lear I love the Scottish play I love morning becomes electric. I would direct the out of, you know, rose tattoo by Tennessee Williams these are all things that I am a perfect director for right and not despite, but inclusive of all of my traditional identities. And I wish for us that in 10 years are our artistry not just our stories but our artistry has become part of the American canon, whatever this canon 2.0 new canon is that it's not just that we sort of carve out our 10% of plays that are about our experiences. And that's all we are allowed to sort of engage with that we actually own get to own parts of all of it, and can be in spaces to advocate for ourselves in a way that's beyond just our identities but is inclusive of it. So, those are sort of things that really come to me like I just. I personally would like to be able to direct it all. Right. And I want to be working at a theater field that allows me to do that. And I want to as a leader be charging forward for a kind of field that I want to see in the world so I want to be part of creating it and I take that. You know, responsibility on myself as well. So those are some of the thoughts that come to me in terms of like future facing. Great. I think I think in 10 years, we have to regroup as a panel and assess all that has all that has to inspire. Sarah, I would love to give you. Thank you. A couple of thoughts. You know, there's a period where I was extremely hesitant to identify as with Mina and specifically Middle Eastern theater companies or artists and was actively not trying to be part of golden thread. And so I had to like couple of pull me in and it was a proud production of dollars I that everyone cast me in and it was like just come and audition for this I don't even think you're going to be fit for it and ended up being this like turning point. And I remember I had to exit another show to be part of that show. It was a really hard decision. And the director of that other show basically said you realize if you go into this direction, you will then be pigeonholed as a Middle Eastern actor. And are you sure you want to do that. It didn't happen by the way but but it's certainly actually after a while I'm like into my earlier point about being selected. After I was like, yeah, this is actually if I'm going to pick and choose what I'm going to be working on. I actually do want it to be representative. And as someone whose kid is probably going to pass for white, or certainly, I don't know. It's something that actually eats at me of how much I really want to step into the identity. I'm never going to pass for white, but my kids may. And there's a blessing in some of that and there's a loss in some of that. But I think so as much as it is hard to be like, I would love to be this and this is a fleeting moment for the Middle Eastern American community. Maybe it's going to become so assimilated in two to three generations that will be like oh yeah my so and so and so and so used to come from so and so and so and so. And that could have its fruits and it could also lose a lot of history and story. So I appreciate some of the separation, because it gives us a moment to celebrate. So it's a little bit complicated but I think I'm just sitting at this moment watching the next generation that I really have to work very hard to instill our history and story for because it may just pass. Well, I have to say I expected this to be a great and fruitful conversation and we have met and exceeded all of those expectations. Thank all of you for your, your wisdom, your, your courage, your artistry, your brilliance and beauty. It means so much to, you know, once again just be in community with this community at this time I'm going to hand things back to to Willa Taylor from from the Goodman Theater. Thank you Willa. Thank you so much, Jamil. And thanks to all of these brilliant wonderful panelists, Sara, Evan, Sivan, Adam, Martin, and of course Jamil. And thank our captioners behind the scenes. Thank Liam Collier, our tech person, and thank all the folks who helped make this possible. Again, this will be archived at Hallround TV. So you'll be able to check it out again. Again, I want to thank Hallround and very much I want to thank Silk Road Rising for partnering with us in this. I hope you've enjoyed it. Thank you very much and goodbye.