 This episode is skeptical Getting real about the big picture questions We have conquered science, medicine, technology, and the physical world We search for something greater beyond our understanding We search for the origin of the universe The greatest conceivable existence And how the data from a variety of spiritually transformative experiences is staring us right in the face People who undergo these things are transformed in so dramatic ways How do you explain the fact that atheists now believe in supreme beings After having these spiritual transformative experiences Or dramatically change their opinions on major aspects of philosophical and personal life That first clip is kind of interesting It's from the movie Proximity when E.T. comes down looking for Jesus Or just somebody who can tell him what the real story is And the second clip was from returning guest, the very excellent Dr. Robert Davis Who I believe is really tapping into the keys of the kingdom when it comes to understanding E.T. And that is understanding spiritually transformative experiences This is kind of a wide-ranging discussion But I think it lands on a couple of really important points I hope you enjoy it Welcome to Skeptica where we explore controversy of science and spirituality I'm joined today by Dr. Robert Davis Bob has been on the show a couple of times He's kind of a go-to guy for me because, well, a couple things One, he has just his stellar academic background All the credentials, NIH grants, published peer-reviewed journals, all that stuff And then he goes off and he writes all these terrific books about all this Off-the-wall stuff like spiritually transformative experiences Consciousness beyond the biological robot, meaningless universe, nonsense UFOs just because it comes up, Kundalini stuff So he just recently sent me this Which is a paper he just published in Edge Magazine Which is from the Journal of Scientific Exploration Which, if you know this show, it's a terrific journal It's a peer-reviewed top-notch people who are thinking out of the box But are really doing science So Bob publishes this paper Spiritually transformative experience triggers Great stuff piqued my interest Particularly as it relates to time Just a lot of stuff together that is Like for all of us, that is us listening to Skeptico Skeptico, we get it We get that you can't just talk about Consciousness without talking about Near-death experience, auto-body experience, psychedelic experience Maybe ET experience And so what Bob is doing is kind of putting that all on the table Again, in a scientific way and saying Hey, maybe we need to talk about all this stuff together In order to have a meaningful discussion But then Bob made the mistake Of sending me a video he has recently stumbled across Which many of us have seen by this time With Dr. Gary Nolan at the Salt Connections Which, if you're unfamiliar, is kind of like Ted Talk kind of thing Like beefed up Ted Talk kind of thing Where he says 100% aliens have already arrived So I'm just laying the groundwork here And also for my friend Bob to let him know that Buddy, you've kind of laid the foundation For me pulling you in a million directions Beyond spiritually transformed experiences And let's get to it, right? Oh please, I look forward to it And thank you, I can't follow up on that introduction Thank you for that You know, this is a chess game And there are so many pieces out there That one tries to make sense of And I did that my whole life In a scientific setting, you know, laboratory setting Of course, in a published or parish environment And since retirement, I dedicate that same level of curiosity To what I deem to be the most important questions Of our time, of all times You know, what is the nature of reality, what is consciousness All of these things that we don't, that language Can't ideally explain, express This objective experience, the interactions with Alternate realms, non-human intelligences Kolomites, whomever, the deceptions and lies That are out there by so-called experts that we hear Brain hacking galore Misinformation abounds Oh wait a minute, why do you put those things together Necessarily? Like, that's the level, that's the level three stuff That you and I will talk about And then sometimes I think we breeze past things In a way that doesn't let other people Into the conversation we're having Because for you to say Spiritually transformative experiences Are clearly, if you study them scientifically As you have, they, we start to see these Patterns across these, all sorts of these experiences Patterns across near-death experience Out-of-body experience, psychedelic experience Dare we say ET experiences So you break that down in a scientific way And you write the papers and read it And we all go wow, there's these cultural filters That we can apply on it But when we strip past our individual personality There seems to be what science would call An observable pattern But Bob, you can't start laying on The deception and the misinformation Because that doesn't necessarily Have anything to do with that Why is it so hard For other academics, intellectuals People we rely on to kind of do the full stop With just where you're at With the spiritually transformative experiences Which seems obvious and say Okay, that's a reality that we have to deal with Why do we have deception and misinformation On top of that? Well, it's unfortunate And that some of that exists You certainly exist in all levels of society And certainly in ufology Because of the existing misinformation That we have all been exposed to And we continually hear that Trying to seek the truth Even today as we speak, for instance NASA is having a hearing on UAPs Arrow just had it I would focus on the scientific evidence For any definitive word When people start going into the Spiritual transformative experiences Which I don't denounce I fully am a proponent of the evidence And continue to try to seek Ways in which we can make sense of it In trying to separate the sense of the nonsense Of the misinformation from what truly is scientific In other words And not biased by even science itself I see misinformation in science Because the explanations for these near death Out of body, Kundalini, et cetera Experience that transform people in remarkable Permanent ways And they try to seek explanations With fierce determination from that moment forward Their explanations are discipline-specific They're biased So we are being fed Not intentionally with misinformation But with inaccurate biased perspectives That are based on one's previous educational Experience If I'm a neuroscientist And I do an experiment with giving somebody DMT And they say they interacted with Unhuman entities Perceived an alternate reality And now they believe in a deity Where before they were atheists And life after death And the whole nine yards And they're transformed And this has happened We see this in studies of John Hopkins And in other places Well, that's meaningful That means something But does that really mean The person interacts with an alternate realm As they claim and believe During their nine to five job In an office setting At this time Even though it happened five years ago It's real, like the back of their hand Yet the neuroscientist will give An explanation of brain-based Ego dissolution based on connectivity Increases in this region versus That point of view When in fact that could be Misinformation may be the wrong term But the reader The reader is misinformed Or a donut is interpreting it too literally Hold on, let me pause you there Because we might start mixing things together Again in a way that I want to really Make a concerted effort to pull apart So I have this experience, right? I'm in the Rick Strassman studies In New Mexico They're ordained by the government Where you're going to give me DMT I take the DMT I go and I go into the shape-shifter world The shamanic world And I see these other things And they look a lot like what The DMT contactees have described in this net I have that experience and as you describe it That experience is real to me And then as you point out in your books Which are terrific because Your books are not just They are scientific because you're a scientist But they're also experiential You have experience with the UFO phenomena You have experience with the After-death realm, whatever Even though we can't describe that completely So you're kind of coming at this From a different perspective And I think when you then talk about The neurologist who's trying to process that I think we have to kind of make A cleaner break there In terms of that neurologist a lot of times Is operating in this as I call it Biological robot meaningless universe Materialist perspective That is just a major misstep We don't have to bring them into the club And say oh they have an opinion too No they're just kind of flat earthing it In a way for somebody like you Who's looked at all this evidence And all this science You would just kind of be nice But you pat them on the head and say Go do about 10 years of research and then come back So I think sometimes We confuse the issue When we talk about The neurologist who is just not Clued into Has this dogmatic view of things That has clouded their vision And we put that side by side with Who we're going to talk about in a minute A Dr. Gary Nolan who from Every way we look at it Is playing a game man He's peddling an agenda He's CIA And once you're partially CIA You're CIA all the way And there's all these other connections So whether he is all that or not I'm not against Gary Nolan Seems like a great guy to me Potentially is a different character On this playing field Than your normal You know run of the mill Sam Harris just kind of clueless Neuroscientist who's Caught up in their own I'm an atheist therefore I gotta protect My turf kind of thing Do you understand what I'm saying Am I kind of belaboring a point there That needs to be drawn out Or is it obvious to everybody Yeah, there's a lot there That's why I approach it Almost as As if it is a chess game You know you bring up my personal experiences Yeah I saw two armed jobs I had a shared death experience Not near death, a shared death A knowingness that my colleague died Which we discussed Something that's Indescribable but intensely meaningful And had a Kundalini awakening Remarkable energetic shift Very positive And it flipped me like it does many Many people and that Has been well documented by Wollacott I think she was A new interview to her A researcher Professor at University of Oregon What's going on and then you have Straussman you mentioned with the DMC Studies and John Mack the psychiatrist They met they compared their nose Between the People who claim to be have had Interacted with non-human entities Interacted with the new AP And Straussman's evidence With DMT subjects and they were blown away Literally quote unquote By the similarity Of the experiences Of these two distinctly dissimilar Groups and I take that And I embed that in the article Then I'll take other pieces That I regard as quite interesting From so called experts I try to seek out that kind Of objective information As best as possible Not that they're correct, no means Nor is my interpretation Of the evidence correct But I'm trying to make sense of nonsense Or misinformation, not intentionally Not purpose, not always Purposeful deception Not always but we see evidence of that Certainly and we'll get there To make a coherent whole As best as possible So neurologist will flat earth it Will put his or her diet tribe As simple and specific and biased as I mentioned But then you have You mentioned Gary Nolan I don't know if you want to go there now Well regarding his field As geneticist, immunologist From Stanford University Nolan labs and then we go on and on with his Vita And he comes out at the SALT conference Just a few days ago and he says 100% he believes 100% he is real and they're here Pause right there, pause right there We'll play it, it would be helpful To qualify yourself Because you are going to make some very bold Statements here today And I would love for people to understand Why they should believe you And so perhaps can you give a little bit of your background Sure, so I'm a professor In the department of pathology At Stanford The primary research work in my lab Is cancer, immunology, virology We also do a lot of work in biothreat So we worked with Ebola, Zika COVID When it was a big problem Primarily the work in my lab is the development Of instrumentation and algorithms To understand the complexity of the immune system In cancer and in the process Of doing that we've created any of a number Of technologies which we spun Out into companies, it's now nine companies Two of them are on NASDAQ And these immunology instruments Are used pretty much around the world In almost any advanced immunology Analysis and work Understood And I'm curious Do you believe That extraterrestrial intelligence Has visited planet Earth? I think you can go a step further It hasn't just visited It's been here a long time and it's still here We'll end it there and then we'll Come back to it But I want to let you know where I'm going With Gary Nolan And that's that I think he's Carrying water for somebody else What are you thinking when you see Gary Nolan? Who is he to you? What is he doing? What is he talking about? Gary I think is the modern day Version of John Mack Similarities and obvious Differences of course John Mack again, your audience I'm sure Is familiar with him for those not He was again a psychiatrist at Harvard Who had a fight for tenure after advocating Again that he Believed that people believed Back with non-human intelligence etc But Gary Nolan is saying That as it applies to You would think the nuts and bolts We have some metamaterials Analyzing it, I'm consulting With the CIA and others who have Access to it and He's likely not disclosing it And that's why he maybe says I'm 100% certain without disclosing it Not a purposeful Disinformation But maybe a little misdirection He's convinced He has the evidence but it's not The right time to share it In his sense He's letting the cat out of the bag Before the evidence in detail Is provided, that's the only thing I could think of why he says 100% Unless he's preparing us for some Disclosure that's about to happen Okay but here's the pause I gotta put in that And that's that This is who else Nolan is And I have pulled up on the screen That he makes to Fauci At the end When Fauci retires Thank you Dr. Fauci For your tremendously positive Contributions To immunology and Virology And I just gotta play A couple other little clips Into this one to fully Put that into context Because the first place I'd go with The Gary Nolan thing Which some people might have forgotten But Diana Walsh Posolka Who wrote the book American Cosmic Which was extremely influential Book The main characters in that book Are two guys And they're pseudonyms in the book One is James and one is Tyler Durden And James is the good guy He's the guy who's doing The real science And here's what she says about About James And James is outed later As none other than Dr. Gary Nolan Okay so the thing is And I thought and I hoped That I conveyed that At first I was very suspicious And to the point of being Frightened really Of a lot of the people that I met Because they were not at a level that These were not people that I'd ever met before And there were some who Were professors And who were studying this as well And I kind of bonded more with them Like James in the book I bonded with James a lot more And he's a good friend of mine And so the other people that are Way out there and doing that space Can I just interject something Because the weirdness never stops Yeah that's James right James is also an experiencer Who's had multiple experiences With E.T. if you want to call it that For simple terms And his main driving Ambition research project Is to kind of counteract This ability that E.T. Has to seem to just Bump into us In the extended consciousness realm Wherever he wants and he wants to have Greater control of that So again you know maybe I'm making Too big a deal out of this But James Phenomenal book showing about the Invisible college and how there's these Good guys Who you can really trust And I'm not going to give you his name His name is James so his name is really Gary No one as it's later revealed And he's a good guy He's a scientist like I am Because he's a tenured professor In religious studies right But this is also Gary In August of 2022 When he's saying Fauci To immunology and virology Now I don't have to remind folks But I think I will Who Dr. Anthony Fauci Turns out to be Now in 2023 So as I play these next couple clips Into this I want you to keep in Mind what is Gary thinking How is Gary the Stanford Scientist the Stanford Immunologist now all the data's In you can analyze it You can look across the board How is he maintaining that position Given Hold on one sec Let me play it I know I'm jabbering it up here But I'm not going to I can apologize for that I'm just going to play it in and we'll have plenty of time to talk Let me get this Hey conspiracy theorists As you know Questioning Albert Borla CEO of Pfizer Or Anthony Fauci Former head of everything important Is basically an attack on science itself So if there were a test that could Have revealed that many of the laws And measures that were undertaken during the pandemic Were unnecessary and the CDC ignored that test Then that would be what? Un-scientific It depends on what they Say it is stupid Yeah bloody conspiracy theorists You Remember Albert Borla saying That RFK in questioning Certain medications is questioning Science itself Fauci essentially said in a weird judge Dreadway I am science Let's remind ourselves what these smug Victators were telling us just a matter Of months ago and try to remember This is the world you're still living in This is the price you're still paying What is your level of concern that we're going to Discredit public health officials to the point of You know look at Russia I see you're looking at them and I raise you Proxy war with them and also we can say That they even caused Donald Trump That's not going to work for long And none of their citizens will take it Because they don't trust their own government It's very dangerous Chuck Because a lot of what you're seeing As attacks on me quite frankly Are attacks on science Oh you are the embodiment of science Are you what a scientific Thing to say that an entire dogma Could be embodied in an individual Okay that was a very excellent Russell Brand we could also go to mainstream Media at this point which has The science is so overwhelmingly Turned against What they perpetrated With the jab thing and how the science Was completely the other way And they turned their back on it So I'm going to return to Gary Nolan I can't let him off the hook For what he says about Fauci I think that reveals more Than just about anything else we can hear Him say about his background About Stanford about his grants About his CIA work He's carrying the water for somebody Else because no one in the right mind Would say that at this point About Fauci to me It kind of reveals it all Well yeah I don't know If there's a cause effect there Maybe one way to interpret what he said But another way that the way I would Interpret it would be that he's Looking at Fauci's past achievements I do know a well Respected virologist Who actually patented The rotavirus and I asked him during COVID What he thought about Fauci And only said what the man is absolutely Brilliant, his contributions To the field of virology Are unquestioned That's why he holds the position So I think the point is Nolan's case And I think it was related to that And I want to be on your good side Well political and in recognition Of his great past And ignoring his COVID contribution Which in retrospect could be To interpret it could be a disaster You know it could be But it's more of an emotional disaster Discussed as left on society Are unimaginable That's where I focus And we get to even realize that I think What it's done to people all over the world Did you read RFK Junior's book on Fauci Are you aware of it? No So it's kind of the definitive work On his history Is the opposite of what you just said If you carefully go through it He's mixed in with the whole AIDS HIV thing in a very unscrupulous way Very very Despicable Career in medicine In my opinion and in the opinion of Many people who've read that book Which by the way was the number one Book on Amazon for the longest time And got zero reviews Got zero reviews In any mainstream publication So there's no New York Times Wall Street They completely ignored it just like they're trying To ignore him now as he's running For president. Point being There's 150 pages of Notes, you know footnotes In that book to the research that Fauci Did which contradicts What your friend who's just probably Going with the mainstream narrative Unforgivable I think for a serious academic Inverology to be Tremendously grateful For his contributions Without looking at him as Potentially someone who's just Run the largest scientific Scam in history Which at this point there's no other way The burden of proof would be on someone to Say that the pandemic was Something other than the largest Medical scam in history The burden of proof suggests That it is so I'm open to The possibility that it isn't but Man you're gonna have to convince me If you can't then what does that say About Gary Nolan That's why I keep coming back to this Because what does this say About how we're supposed To understand One aspect of the spiritually Transformative experiences And that is the ET If Gary Nolan is the guy Who's partially responsible For controlling the narrative Then he's controlling Your narrative as well In a way that maybe you haven't Fully considered Well you're exactly right He's a focal point Of public attention As well as attention by many In academia so of course He can persuade He consults with the CIA He consults supposedly according What he says with all peoples in the know As far as your APs are concerned He does meta material analysis He is an admitted experiencer People identify certainly with that Who else within The community other than Those who just don't focus on him And they're probably most people in society And just go if they're Interested in your following on what The DOD, NASA etc Are all doing about it As well as the Galileo project Which Nolan is also involved in And I credit Abby Lo To commend them in one Sense I don't know if they have Anything else up their sleeve But they're like a John Mack In a sense that they're risking Their reputation, their status In some ways and they're pushing the envelope And you need one white crow In a sense or a scientist Who does make that incredible discovery Maybe or it comes out Of citizen science In terms of the public Generating research On their own with limited funds To try to unravel this chess Game that we all seem to be playing I think you're a hell of a lot closer To unraveling it than these guys are That's my point. I think these guys Abby Lo, if you listen carefully to what he's saying He doesn't believe in ET I mean, not only does he not believe in ET He doesn't believe in UFO Right? So when you Fully process that, it's back to What I was saying like with your stuff With the spiritually transformative experiences And then you talk to Sam Harris And he's like, well hey, I think It's still an illusion, you know? I'm going to spin this stuff about meditation But it's still all brain based Consciousness is an illusion It's like you really don't have a seat At this table, like I don't know If you're just making that stuff up or not But you really don't have a seat at that table Abby Lo, when he says UFOs Hey, if we ever run across to them They might be real, it's like, bro If we ever run across them You are somehow, you don't Really have a seat at the table You on the other hand, my friend Is who I'm turning to In this discussion, because You definitely got a seat on the table You are way, way ahead Of the curve by virtue Of this Spiritually transformative experiences across the board Where you include This UAP UFO experience And quotes like this from that article As with any experience That's filtered through our layers of culture Language and individuality STEs, that is Spiritually transformative experiences Also share several similarities Themes and features Man, we could do a whole hour Just on that Because it's so deep That is not where Gary Nolan Is coming from Gary Nolan is trying to misdirect us Away from that He's trying to misdirect us by saying Well, none of that stuff could possibly Even be on the table Because there's no such thing as consciousness Consciousness is an illusion So here's where I'm going to take you to This guy Ray Hernandez, beyond UFOs A project to try And wrap our arms around those experiences And a project that you were Directly involved in You were called to be a part of Because you do have Not only the academic credentials But you have the academic Muscle to know how to Collect data Tell us about that project Because I think it relates more to The real story Of what's going on behind Gary Nolan And the rest of these guys Than the fake stories So tell me, what was this project? The Dr. Argumentals Research Foundation For extraordinary experiences I was developed by And certainly the sixth person Walked on the moon, founder of the Institute of Phonetic Sciences Dr. Argumentals, over time Ray Hernandez and a few others Developed the study And I came on board About a year or two in progress After I wrote my UFO book They heard me on some podcasts And invited me to join And I was thrilled, that was a kidney store I was always interested in UFOs I was always interested in research And this is a tremendous Opportunity for me to interact with Many scientists And actually I told them I'm going to get this published And I did in the general Scientific exploration I wrote it up with Russ Calpone Ray Hernandez was also a co-author And without Russ Calpone's Up, a statistical analysis It wouldn't have been accepted But so referee journal I'm proud about it Because it does say something quite Significant, again it's not Accepted by NASA Because it's not nuts and bolts We're talking about spiritual, transformative experiences Qualitative, subjective experiences And we did a survey Of over 3200 individuals Many people are very familiar with that And the results, you know I'm not going to go into great details about it But there are many limitations Obviously But the fact that 3200 people Are in it, it kind of weeds out The people who you Can't trust Are forming us purposely Or schizophrenic for instance And are making it up for whatever reason There's a secondary gain Nevertheless, a large sample size That was controlled as best as possible Statistically In terms of validity and reliability And again, I thank Russ Calpone for that We came up with some interesting data Which has been supported by subsequent studies By Kathleen Martin That the experience of research team at MUFON And a few others What we found was that The majority, again approximately 80-85% Regarded as a positive interaction The more times I interacted with the UAP Either physical or non-physical Either as an abductee Or a contactee They regarded it as a positive experience Especially if those interactions Were more frequent in nature And we saw an increase in positivity Which again was statistically derived In terms of four specific criteria That were weighted most heavily In terms of positivity criteria So again, it was finally tuned Analytically And using that criteria We saw an increase in positivity With increases and interactions Whatever that meant to them Entering another matrix An alternate realm and non-earthly environment Or a spacecraft Lying on a table, being subjected To experimental paradigms Given a hybrid, we know the whole story The point is Initially, of course It's horrific Let's not discount that Hold on before you go to horrific Because I want to go horrific too But I want to pause And let people know why I was Trying to rally you up a little bit Is because of this You got the goods here, Bob You've gone and done the frickin' Work And the last time you were on Some of the data And you push right back and say, no I know how to do this kind of research I know how to scientifically collect data In a scientific survey And analyze it statistically And get it published in a peer-reviewed journal And that still means something, man It does if it's done correctly And their peers are really looking at it And that lends tremendous credibility To what you're saying When I pull up that Edge article That's a spiritually transformative experience Now people know what I mean Bob knows what he's talking about With this particular Spiritual transformative experience Which was the ET encounter And how do we know that's A spiritual transformative experience Because we ask people They say, I had this experience That no spiritual transformative That makes you More of an authority on How these spiritually his work across the board, across the board being NDEs, OBEs, like we're saying stressmen and you just take DMT kind of thing. That conversation, they are trying to pull us miles away from that conversation. Gary Nolan, I would suggest, just like Lou Elizondo before him who was carrying the, you know, go watch the videos on Lou Elizondo from a year ago. He's off the stage right now because he somehow discredited himself, but his thing was like, man, it's about protecting our airspace. And you know, hey, if it's up there and it's a threat and this and that. So he had a message, he delivered that good. Before that, it was Tom DeLong. You know, hey, man, you know, I'm I'm the cool generation, Blink 182. Here's my message. Carrying the water. I would suggest that that's the only way to view Gary Nolan and Avi Loeb. Is there just carrying the water with another message? You, my friend, are not. You're at the next level of trying to put this together. And the first step is to say there is an experience associated with this. And as you have written about and researched about so fantastically, it is the most profound experience we can imagine. It is a spiritually transformative experience. If we look at cultures, if we look at time, these are the things we value most are these experiences that scientists would say are spiritually transformative. Now you're saying that is at the core of all this stuff that these guys are talking about. Do you get where I'm going? Do you get why I'm kind of poking you a little bit on that? Yeah, there's no question. And thank you for your kind words as an authority. You know, I may be familiar a little bit with the literature trying to put the pieces together and you don't know whether or not you should include as as objective evidence is that's not biased. Of course, what's the value validity of the information that you hear in ufology and beyond. And that's why I knew it would lead to it beautifully. The the data that's qualitative in nature that we generated in survey designs, it lacks in terms of what hardcore materialists regard as as reflections of the ultimate truth. Despite the fact that that people who who undergo these things are transformed in so dramatic ways. How do you explain the fact that atheists now believe in supreme beings after having these spiritual transformative experiences or dramatically change their opinions on major aspects of philosophical and personal life? To me, you know, at least it can be argued metaphysically, philosophically, which I'm not, but you can regard that as being the ultimate reality truth. If it if it makes one more ecologically sensitive. And that's maybe a big issue. One of the pieces that I think you are aware of and certainly many others are when people have these kind of experiences, it seems like, of course, they're not the center of the universe anymore. They become like a particle of the wave. You want to go into that wave particle duality thing? I mean, you really go in that direction and also make the analogy between the subjective experience and true reality because the unit of experience that underlies the spiritual transformative experience, that unity where I feel interrelated with with the world reality, the environment like they never have before. And it feels beautiful, normal, natural, peaceful, loving, all that glittering gold, new age stuff, but it's but it's there. Let me interject something here, because I think you're doing it in more of a way than you might even realize. The thing I always point out is so the survey you guys do at Free and You Publish is about experience in a way that we generally accept in science, right? So if someone is experienced depression, we accept that they are experiencing depression. If someone is experiencing grief, we accept that they are experiencing grief. We don't double clutch on that. We don't say, what is the physics? You know, how does it relate down to quantum physics kind of thing? And we don't just stop there. We say, we can measure that. That's what you're bringing to it. It's not like you're off in your own kind of thing. Oh, it's all anecdotal. You are applying rather well understood scientific principles to experience and you're just applying them in an area that no one ever wanted to apply it to because it's the third rail and you're going to get electrocuted on your career. You're exactly right with respect to how we rely on surveys in order to inform our medical community, how severe the pain is, how severe the depression is, you're exactly right. And often tailored appropriate doses of a specific drug to minimize the severity of that particular symptom. Largely survey based, largely anecdotal. How else kind of psychologists, psychiatrists, medical physician get an understanding of your physical condition that they understand how you express it. Yet, yet you're exactly right. Yet when you see survey results as it relates to the free survey or other surveys, and that's all they are in spiritual transformative experience related research or surveys, except for the DMT, which is survey in terms of understanding the semantic, thematic content of the individual's experience under the DMT or psilocybin, but also correlating that with some underlying EEG, neurophysiological patterns, whatever that may mean, and that's not an answer other than there's major changes going on. There's no question about it, you know, is a DMT in the penis when we can only, we can only throw these things out and suspect. Let me just recap what you're saying, because it's important is so we go look at Strassman spirit molecule and we repeat it and we mix in the DMT component, I would say almost as a way of apologizing for the fact that what all that research is really about is the qualitative, the anecdotal, that's what it's all about. Because if you go look at the ayahuasca experience, right, and you go down to, Hey, I was down in Peru and the same thing, I'm taking stressman's work and they had the DMT and down there they gave the DMT and then one person goes, Well, you know, as a matter of fact, I didn't drink. They just came along and they just moved the feather and I had the same experience. And now you go, Whoa, the stressman has to push the materialistic and I'm not saying he's pushing it, but the way that gets interpreted is it's about the DMT versus if we look more broadly at your work, I think your work points us to what's really going on. Is there something called a spiritually transformative experience? And we're not exactly sure what the correlation is between that and this biological robot part of us. And that's the heart of the current debate. There's no way to get an objective measure of one having an NDE. It's impossible because it's spontaneous in nature, except the one in which you can control here. Here's some psilocybin DMT at an appropriate dose. And you get some incredible things happening. The value of psychedelics is significant in terms of those who can play around with it and try to make sense of something that changes their personality. At the same time, you can get some hard data. So it pleases the materialists and they go in that direction in terms of an explanation. And the question is, do you interpret hallucinations as real events? You know, they don't. They regard these reports as hallucinatory in nature and not evidence of an alternate reality, whereas another person would would look at it in the reverse. So how do you relate to this objective experience of these transpersonal events? And we know the statistics. Just to remind some people, 70 percent chances of people who have a native experience, you know, Alex, have a divorce within seven years. It's remarkable, much higher than expected. But we see this with STEs, we need more data with scratching the surface, not only how it affects the person involved, the experiencer, but the family members. First, second, third person. And that's where we need to go. That's thematic, the semantic content of what the meaning meaning was of that event. Look for these comparisons. And it's going to take a long time before science adopts this as a true, valid reflection of reality. You are in the middle of creating this documentary, which you think is going to move the ball forward a little bit in terms of the issues that you were just talking about in terms of consciousness. It's called the consciousness connection. Let me play a little bit of just the end of the trailer and then we'll talk about it. Will we break through the stigma of the science of the extraordinary and challenge the true nature of reality in the consciousness connection? This we're putting your energy and it's where we should be putting our passion and our energy and the many materials and the anti-gravitational stuff. I'm not saying that's not a path, but in terms of a more direct path, we have to go with the experience. It is the closest thing we have to potentially finding out the meaning of this. It's the experience and that's where you are. It is a passion, it's an energy. My experiences I mentioned earlier certainly fueled that, gave me the determination, that little hint that there likely is something more. My experiences told me something that beyond belief, never thought I could experience what I did. So I'm trying to make sense of it, but I'm making the documentary because I'm trying to find the pieces and keep researchers who look at human to human interaction on an invisible pathway or existential perception, human to physical system interaction, psychokinesis. A near-death experience is certainly we're going to be filming at the International Association for Near-Death Studies, once a Monroe Institute, on and on ions. And yes, Gary Nolan, let's bring that into UFO, not everything. You're very selective what he's doing. You have a top knock, active in addition, like many others. Dean Raiden, Eben Alexander and unfortunately as a producer, I'm out there saying we need funding for travel primarily to get from here to there to make these kinds of interviews. But more than that, Alex, and you mentioned it, the experiencer, we do have experiences near that people have had many of these. And that's the value of the film. Okay, Bob. So last question then. What concerns do you have about the signal to noise ratio? If one does take as you're talking about the Big Tent approach, which I think is awesome, talk to a lot of different people, but tying it back to the misinformation, disinformation, how do you balance that? Oh, very, very careful. I will do my very best to make sure that that's not the case because the intent and I can't be perfect. Certainly we're all all human and make those areas of inductive reasoning, deception abounds and it certainly exists in all media forms. And I can help hostage to that. So I and Dave and Bady and Wilson Hawthorne that my co produces, we talked about that and that's why we don't want to include UFOs. And we debated that and you're getting Gary Nolan on board is wonderful. But let's focus on other stuff. I don't want to really go there. I don't want to go there. We talked about Chris Bledsoe. Let's get some orbs, you know, and all that jazz. He's doing another documentary and he can't and he doesn't even address that. You can't get you can't do it before he got the documentary. Come on up, spend the night, you know, take all of the videos you want. He's wonderful. I have great respect for him. CAA is involved. John Alexander, I know what spoke with him and he's been up there and and he believes and I may have mentioned before that that Chris Bledsoe is the one responsible. He's the one that calls down these all. Well, that's his interpretation. But the CAA is always a CAA, retired or not. And they will gather information among the citizenry and see what they're up to. And that's probably the best source of information they can get. That's what that's their discipline when they do it very well. Even even getting up front and close and establishing personal relationships with people who are experiences to try to extract information and deceiving them, deceiving them to do so in gaining their trust, but also picking their brain, you call it brain hacking, whatever you want. But there's an ulterior motive. They're not mean and vicious, but they're deceptive. You know, they're deceptive people. They could be being a vicious too, but I was just going to say, I was just going to say, but that's unethical. It's unethical, you know, to be that way with another human being, as far as I'm concerned, you know, mission aside, and they admittedly tell people they're encountering intelligence. They admit that. So I said last question, but actually I'm going to stretch it out with one more question because, like, look, at a deep level, if one reads your books, one understands that you have this deeper spiritual connection yourself, the signal to noise ratio isn't lost on Dr. Robert Davis. I'm not sure that we can extend that courtesy to some of these other folks. And in particular, you know, the little thing you just did on the CIA, it's like, I guess I'd wrap this into the question of, you know, what do you think about my lab? Because one of the holes in the free survey that you did with Ray Hernandez is, hey, man, these things are 80 percent positive. Well, number one, can't be absolutely sure that deception on that other side in terms of screen memory and all this other stuff, which we acknowledge isn't somehow contaminating that in a way that we just effectively cannot measure because the technology on the other side on the non-human intelligence is sufficient to disguise it from us. So I just throw that out there. And if you want to respond to that, that's kind of one thing. But the other thing is, then we go to the other 20 percent, which are negative. And it is clear to me at this point that the military abduction thing is 1,000 percent in play. And the reason I'd say 1,000 percent is because Gary Nolan said 100 percent. We've got to beat him. But the other thing is if you just look at the data, like, look at Randall Schemhorst. I was just looking at that again, because there's a new book out that's more research, more interviews with the participants, with the observers, the military guys who were there. That's 1980. And you know what they do to those guys who observe it, who see the trees being knocked down, see the trace elements of the craft, see the craft fly over the nuclear missiles and targeting. What do they do with those guys? They round their ass up, they bring them back to the base, they would lock them down. They bring in the men in black, kind of not literally, but they bring in the heavy hitters. They illegally induce them with sodium pentothal. They subject them to just the worst kind of tortured interrogation. They threaten them that you will be killed. Your family will be killed if you ever tell anyone about this. And this is not just unique to the Randall Schemhorst case. This is we hear this all the time. The connection that I haven't heard a lot of people make is that's my lab. That's at least the beginnings of my lab, because it's saying the military understands the abduction process enough to say, we got to figure it out. We got to know what those guys know. And if that is your 20 percent, what you guys found on free, I'm not sure that's not the big story rather than the 80 percent think it's positive. It's an interesting take. You can't discount that as a possibility. And I thought I thought of that. How do you exclude my labs and my labs has happened? Yes. The question is, does it still happen? I don't know of abductions. Happens like sauces aren't seen and we don't have trace elements anymore. You know, you know, things change over time. Why does that mean motivations have changed? Objectives have changed decisions. And some unencouraged access program has changed or modified to conform for whatever reason to comply with changing event. I don't know. Could the 20 percent be the my lab to be whisked away and subject to sodium benzoyl and steam memory? Yeah, it happens. I know somebody who would happen to. And that's the basis of my books. Here's the facts. Go figure it out. I'll throw in a little too sense of my bias. Yes. But I'm trying to orchestrate it. And here's that section of mutant instruments. That section, that section. But let's bring it together and make music as best as possible. And that's the basis of what I'm trying to do. And whatever that means to people, if they can support it in whatever way, and I hate to keep bringing it up, but visit our website at consciousnessfilm.info. We have a GoFundMe page and thank you for the opportunities for mentioning this and for the time in which to do so. So to help with travel, we're not expecting to make money on this. This is a what Dave and Wilson tell me is a passion project. They're artists as as producers, cinematographers, they make money. Great, you know, I'm tired and, you know, 10, 20 years at best. And that's and I'm okay. Point is it's the message. It's not ego, maybe a little bit that I saw the human. Yes, it is a little bit of ego, admittedly. But more importantly, what can I what can I bring to the table, leave a legacy of and maybe resonate with some people that benefit in some way. Well, it's excellent, Bob. I always really, really enjoy the perspective you bring to this and the work, you know, you put in the work. So thanks again. I'm sure we'll do it again. And when that when that movie gets out. Thank you so much. It's always a pleasure speaking with you. Thanks again to Dr. Robert Davis for joining me today on Skeptico. One question I up from this interview is what are spiritual? What are spiritually transformative experiences telling us about encounters with ET? Or you could ask that in reverse and kind of get an interesting question as well. Either way, take a stab at it and let me know what you think. Love to hear from you until next time. Take care. Bye for now.