 I'm delighted to be in conversation with Sadhguru. What we'll do today is explore over the next hour or so what I'd call moral dilemmas. Moral dilemmas, various sorts, particularly with reference to the corporate world and maybe give a different look to it, a different look to this whole context from the point of view what I'd call a mystic's eyes. Thank you, Sadhguru. Before I venture there, I want to just share with you my first experience of seeing Sadhguru. That was on a flight to Davos and he was sitting a few seats ahead of me and I was struck, came to my mind was, who is this mystic? Because I could not place him as an Indian because the way he has a stubborn, well, you know, it is each one's eyes and how you behold somebody and it's only later that I got to know that this was the Sadhguru Jagivastu there. Some time I take off the bran coat. Maybe, you know, he has that ability, I would say. In any case, Davos that year, 2006 if I remember, he spoke of something very interesting. He spoke of something which he called inclusive economics. Inclusive economics wasn't a phrase anybody used six years back. We're talking of development, inclusiveness, we're talking of in the last three years or so. But six years back when this was postulated by, he also went on to explain that this is what holistic development is all about and that all the tools required for that are in place. But I want you to start with this because it's a positive note to Sadhguru. See the… because we're talking about business, the purpose of business or the purpose or the goals of big business is to expand. You can expand in two different ways. One is by conquest, another is by embrace. I can conquer you or I can embrace you. Both ways you will become mine. If I embrace you, you will become mine willingly and I will have better use of you in every possible way. I'm talking business, not… this is not my personal thing. But if I conquer you, I will still have you, but I have to sit on top of your head and make you do things and you will do everything possible to make my life miserable. Yes or no? True. Absolutely. So, people are trying to conquer and their businesses and their activity is doing everything possible to make them miserable and you can see it on their faces. Most successful people are showing miserable faces, which is a wrong message to send to the world, particularly to the youth. If you send a message that success is misery, you're destroying humanity. Success is the sweetest thing that can happen to a human being. But now you take the most successful ten-thousand people on the planet. You will see there are an epitome of tension and anxiety and misery. You're sending a completely wrong message. This you can see took such a bad turn in United States of America in the sixties. The so-called corporates brutally wanting to grow, conquer the world, set such an image of themselves. The youth thought it's better to sit in the street corner and smoke pot. And it's a better way to live, at least you're happy, you're not causing any damage to anybody. This is a horrible way to exist. So it's extremely important that successful people send a clear message, success is a beautiful thing. It is not a suffering, it is not a miserable thing to do in your life. If this has to happen, your expansion has to happen by embrace, not by conquest. So inclusion is the… is what you're trying to do, but you're trying to include by conquest because every business wants to expand. I think somewhere because of the way today, the financial markets and whatever is happening, lot of businesses have lost the sense that what they want is expansion. They're only looking at their quarterly balance sheets, which is not allowing them to expand, it's too short term for expansion. Very big visionary businesses, I'm sure ICIC Bank has looked at it this way, otherwise it wouldn't be what it is today. People are looking at expansion. Those who are really looking for expansion, they're not looking at what is somebody's opinion every quarter. You don't care what somebody thinks about you. People think all kinds of things about me in the last thirty years, but in the last four years, just to take last four years as a segment, in last four years we have expanded over twenty times over, we multiplied, not expand. This is because of a huge embrace, not because of conquest. When you have expanded by embrace, you don't become miserable with expansion. You become joyful and wonderful with expansion. I want to maybe stay on Davos for one more, maybe round before we move on. You have seen Davos from 2006 till after the crash of 2008. Just before we came here, we were having a short chat, and you said you addressed depression in the post-2008 period, and of course, you have seen the euphoria of the preceding years – euphoria to depression. How do these mood swings happen, and how does one balance out one's views as it were? I think one reason is a lot of people have not strived for their success. They are successful by chance. That's why they're euphoric and depressed. If they had crafted their success, you would know the mechanics of success. It doesn't matter what's happening today, you know where you're going anyway. Nobody can take that away from you. So people who do not know the mechanics of what they're doing, the fundamentals of what they're doing, by chance because of situational help, somebody becomes successful, he's euphoric, he thinks he's… they're hitting a lottery, they're not successful. Hitting a lottery is not success, it's just chance. So because of that you see too much of these swings, and anyway as I was telling you, they asked me to handle this session called recession and depression. It was 2008, just then recession had moved into the European and American market. All these billionaires were carrying long faces, so I am supposed to spread it a little bit. Spread a smile, ladies. So I said, recession is bad enough. Do you need depression on top of it? You always dreamed, you want to walk the beach, you want to swim, you want to go play golf. Okay, this is the time, let's work. This is not the end of the world. And above all, the way we have structured our economic process in the planet is such that if we fail, we will be depressed. If we succeed, we will be damned. I said, I prefer that you're depressed. Because our economy is all about more, not about all. I think the business leaders, people who have reached a certain level of success should shift their attention from more to all. All would naturally be inclusion… inclusiveness. What is taking, all is an embrace. Moving on to something that we see across India today, the mood of negativity. In a way, it is a continuum of this depression that we are looking at. But this collective mood of negativity, how do you look at it and how do you actually explain… I think you meet only the people in the boardrooms. Right now a lot of people, too many people including the business leaders and the media, everybody is constantly talking about India will become a superpower which makes me very apprehensive. You don't have legs and you want to climb Mount Everest. It sounds really apprehensive to me because we are going to flounder with this kind of attitude. Everybody is talking about India becoming superpower. You need to understand this, in this country right now for 1.2 billion people, you neither have the roads, nor the airports, nor the infrastructure, nor the homes, nor even enough trees or not enough… reverse, not even a piece of sky for 1.2 billion people. The only thing that we have is we have a population. We done well on that. We have a huge population. If you transform this population into a very competent, focused, inspired population, yes, we could be a superpower in a different way than you understand superpower in normal sense. Superpower means people have always thought military might and something else, but we will be a superpower because just about anywhere you go already we see that but in a much bigger way, every company on the planet could be led by an Indian, that is superpower. We are all over the place. Everybody was telling, see this is Bharat, Mahabharat is elsewhere else. It's in a different place. So I know there's one segment of people who are constantly morose about markets going down, markets going up and stuff. There's another level of people who are too… too loose in their thought that they think we are going to become a superpower. We don't have the fundamentals. I don't have to tell this to you, you know better. We don't have the fundamentals to become any kind of superpower, it's just too much of nonsense. Our problem is we're too dramatic in our minds. We exaggerate our success, we exaggerate our failures. It doesn't matter, the crowd sees it that way, it's all right. But people in positions of responsibility and leadership should be able to see what is the reality. Not imagining things about being superpower, not imagining things about going into dumps, both are not true. We are at a threshold. We are sitting with a possibility, a huge possibility in front of us. But between possibility and reality there is a distance. Do we have the necessary commitment, strength and focus to walk the distance? That's a big question. Is every one of us working towards creating an India which will have the necessary focus and commitment to walk the distance from possibility to reality? This is still a question mark, which way we will go, we don't know. What I hear you saying very rightly so is, we have this ability to exaggerate our success, exaggerate our failures and maybe miss the big step that we have to take. We like drama. Yes, we need to do that. Moving on to something else, which in the corporate world I find people hesitate to say. And particularly in today's fast changing world where things are changing at dramatic pace, three simple words I don't know, to be honest and admitted. I've seen you talk on this and I've been fascinated by what you have said. But in the corporate context, I think it is very much something that we are yet to embrace, the ability to say, I don't know your thoughts, Sadhguru. See the reason, the only reason a human being will seek to know something is, because he realizes that he does not know. If he does not realize that he does not know, there will be no longing to know. There will be no seeking to know and definitely there will be no knowing. It's not possible, whether it is spiritual seeking or any other kind of knowledge, you will seek only because you realize you do not know. If you think you know everything or you believe you know everything, you will be just too full of yourself, that's all. And that is a huge problem, that's a very big problem. Though we have a culturally cultivated humility that you see all over the place, everybody is like this only, but still too full of yourself, when you bend, nothing goes out of your head. It doesn't make any space I'm saying, because my head is open, that's why I'm bandaged, can you see? I think that this is something that we have to understand and acknowledge if we are to grow as a nation in a business context. One is the ability to say I don't know, maybe in today's context, you know, recharge yourself every year in those areas which you don't know and then proceed. This brings me to another corporate question, a problem, inability to have a clear mind, you know, perception clarity as you know, you have put it in your words, as applied to what we do. How exactly do we look at it and what is it that you think will stand business in good stead? See, when you say you're a leader, why would thousand or ten thousand or a million people think you're a leader? Because you are able to see something that others are not able to see. You have a little higher perch for some reason, for whatever reason, or you have a third eye or whatever. You have some… for some reason you are able to see something that everybody else is not able to see, that's the only reason why you will naturally become a leader unless you are a Maharaja's son and we have to bear with you. You know, if you have grown up to be a leader, that's the only reason. Because you are able to see something, if you are able to do something that others cannot do, you would be probably an engineer, you would be something else and something else. But you are able to see something that others are not able to see, that's why you become a leader, a certain vision, a certain insight into the nature of things. What people will see tomorrow, you are able to see today. Not as a prediction, but you are able to see it and you are able to plan to get there before others get there, that is… that's what makes you a leader. And now if they don't have clarity of mind, today I see that wherever I go, particularly in the corporate areas, I wouldn't like to call it a corporate world because it's my endeavor to see that there's only one world, that people don't go on creating their own worlds. But in the corporate atmosphere, one thing that you see is people are tense and anxious because they think they are gold-driven. You want mangoes in your tree. If you sit there and do mango meditation, it's not going to come. If you nourish the roots, you don't… you never even looked up, never even thought of a mango, if you take care of the roots, one day mangoes will land on your head whether you want it or you don't want it. It will just happen anyway. But that whole thing is gone today, everybody has become goal-oriented and new age meditation teachers are telling you, don't bother about doing anything, just imagine and it'll happen. You don't have to do anything. Yes? It's going on, isn't it? Just think about it and it'll happen. Okay? Just fanciful things which sometimes work. The problem is by chance many things work, all right? If you simply throw a stone, a mango will fall. That doesn't mean you can do it once again. So if you somehow get to some place, when I say somehow, when you are not able to manage your own mind, how are you going to manage ten-thousand people's minds? Because in some way leadership means you are able to draw these thousand people and take them in one direction. You are able to inspire these people or instigate these people or like a pipe-piper if you walk, they walk behind you because somehow you captured their minds and they decided that your way of thought and your way of looking is better than their own. It's not a simple thing. For people to think that your way of thinking is better than theirs, you will have to prove it in a thousand different ways. Otherwise they are not going to surrender their own way of thinking and feeling and whatever. So for you to prove that, first thing is you must be in charge of yourself. When you do not know how to take charge of your mind, your energies, your body and yourself, how will you take charge of them? And they are not safe in your hands. I would say anybody who is scattered all over the place in his… in his hands, nobody is safe. Such a person should be… one of the departments, he should not be a leader. If he has to be a leader, in his lap everybody should be safe, then only he can be a leader. That is possible only if you have taken charge of yourself. Lot of people have gotten there somehow. Can I tell you a joke? Please. Please. On a certain day, a bull and a pheasant were grazing. Bull was chomping the grass, pheasant was picking off… picking ticks off the bull partnership. The huge tree at the edge of the field, the pheasant very nostalgically looked at the tree and said, oh alas, there was a time I could fly to the topmost branch of the tree. Now I do not have enough strength in my wing even to get to the first branch. The bull very nonchalantly said, that's no issue. Just eat a little bit of my dung every day. Within a fortnight you will get there. Pheasant said, come on, what kind of rubbish is that? The bull said really try and see the whole humanity is on it. So very hesitantly the pheasant started pecking at the dung and low on the very first day it reached the first branch of the tree. Within a fortnight it reached the topmost branch of the tree, just beginning to enjoy the scenery. An old farmer was rocking on his rocking chair, saw a fat old pheasant sitting on top of the tree, pulled out his shotgun and shot the bird off the tree. The moral of the story is, many times even bullshit can get you to the top, but it never lets you stay there. The phrase, the phrase was coming at the end, you know, where the joke really was cracked. I was just trying to sense it back. I know, I know, I know, you know, Sadhguru always says this, that drama is important. So you know, midway I think we all thought the joke was already cracking, but we didn't hear the crack. We heard it crack at the last minute. Slightly more difficult subject for us, I'm sure, and not for you honestly, egos, because this is something that we deal with every day in the corporate world. You have egos across colleagues, you build, you know, organization structures, I call them cages, because very quickly it is like you are in your cage and you are protecting your cage and you don't want anybody to come anywhere near it and so on and so forth. How does one deal with the egos or maybe a larger question, how does this whole thing arise and how do you, you know, where does this conclude? You want a business answer or a spiritual answer? No, I want a spiritual answer. Business answer we try in our own crude way, but I think we now have to try from your eyes how is this, how is this handled? See, a lot of people have taken on this mode. Whenever they do something nasty, they would like to blame it on you, but you are not willing to take it. So they blame it on Mr. Ego. Where is this Mr. Ego? He only comes in when you are nasty. When you are beautiful, when you are joyful, when you are loving, when you are wonderful, Mr. Ego is absent. Only when you are nasty, you want to put it on somebody else because you haven't found anybody else, you have invented one Mr. Ego. This is no such thing. It is just that human beings are right now in a condition where sometimes they are pleasant, sometimes they are unpleasant, sometimes joyful, sometimes miserable, sometimes wonderful, sometimes horrific. This is what they are. Is there anybody here who is twenty-four hours good? Huh? Oscillating. This moment you are wonderful, next moment you are nasty, isn't it? So because of this volatile inner nature, because it's not established in the yoga we say yoga sahakuru karman, first establishing your yoga, then act, that's not been done. First is action. When you are first action, this is what happens. Because you are unsettled, you are going from pleasantness to unpleasantness, just about any time it's smallest instigation, you have invented Mr. Ego. See if you say, me and my ego reside within this body, what it means is there are two of you. If there are two of you, that means you are either schizophrenic or you're possessed. You need either a psychiatrist or an exorcist. You're not sure what's the problem. So there are no two people, there is only one person here, you are an individual. If you are an individual, what it means is the very word individual comes from the word indivisible. That means you cannot be further divided. If you are an individual, you understand that I am sometimes so nice, sometimes so horrible. If you just realize this, would you want to be horrible? You will not want to be horrible. But this one thing they're dodging by inventing Mr. Ego. When people come and ask me, Sadhguru, what to do with my ego, give him to me, I'll kill him right now. Where is he? No, he comes once in a way. Whenever you want to pass the buck to somebody, he's always there ready. We insist that some people don't go through all that, if they become little religious and if they think they are spiritual, what they will do is, they will give up their ego and they find God. All the nasty things that they do, they say it's God's will. They're taking instructions from him, so you can't argue. People have waged wars, they've done horrible things to each other, the nastiest possible things they have done to each other because they were taking instructions from God. Others are taking instructions from a local guy, which is Mr. Ego. Sadhguru, I think in the corporate world we have to do something painful a lot of times, build businesses and then destruct businesses and Jack Welch was probably one of the masters. He said that if you're not number one or two in any business line that we have, we are going to cut you out. I think he was a brave leader and built a great company. For all leaders find it easy to nurture something and in your phrase, say, nurture and butcher, we may not use that phrase but it's exactly what we have to do, but we fail at it. I want your views on this. I think on some of my books, I think one of the quotes that I have, they have put, I think they printed. I don't know if they're still using it, at one time they were using it. I said, a guru is a butcher and a very difficult butcher because he has to lovingly nourish something and then when it's ripe he has to slaughter it. So this is a thankless job because you nurture something, when it's ripe you have to cut it open. So if corporate leaders are doing it, they're very close to me. But I think they're not doing it, they're getting very attached to what they nourish and they don't do it when they have to do it. That is because they have too much of themselves in what they do. See the beauty of action, any action that we perform in the world, the beauty, the pleasure and the joy of action a human being will know only when he has no need for activity. If I sit here like this with my eyes closed, I can sit here till I fall dead. I won't have any interest, it doesn't matter what drama is happening, I won't open my eyes if I have to, if I don't have to. But at the same time, right now I'm on twenty hours a day, you know three and sixty-five days I'm on and on because something needs to be done. So are you performing action because it's needed to the situation in which you exist? Because the action is always about the situation, but right now that's not how it is with most people. The action is about them. They are trying to make themselves something with action. This is the wrong way to approach you, putting the cart before the horse. See your action is actually an expression of who you are. Instead of that, people are trying to perform action and become something. You first become something and then you act in the world, these problems will not exist. What is needed you will simply do, you will neither call it nurturing or butchering or anything, you will simply do what is needed. Right now so many unnecessary things human beings are doing on this planet, because it's about them. It's not about the situation in which they exist. So very right, I think in the corporate context it's probably the most difficult thing for most people to do. They probably develop some attachment which they cannot let go. They are like grandmothers. Like grandmothers. They are like grandmothers. So they were ready to die, but once the grandchild comes they don't want to die. Wonderful. Wonderful. Again in the corporate context you learn, you devote and you work. My interpretation of Gyan, Bhakti, Karma. Is that right or we need to sequence it differently in a corporate context or is there something else that we need to understand from these three words because they hold a lot of importance in a whole lot of things that you have actually talked about. And I'm trying to seek, you know, what this, how this could be used in a corporate context. See this is relevant for any context, whether you're a corporate leader or a political leader or a spiritual leader or whatever, or you're just one little thing you have started, you're not a leader of anything, it doesn't matter who you are, for everybody it's relevant in a sense. You can only work with what you have. You cannot work with something that you do not have. You can work towards something that you do not have, but you cannot work with what you do not have. Am I clear? We can work towards something that we do not have, but we cannot work with what we do not have. We can only work with what we have. So right now when I say what we have, the only things that you have as a human being right now is your body, your mind, your emotion and your energies, these are only four things you have. Rest is all imagination. Imagination helps to sleep well tonight, you know. You're tensed up because of whatever is happening in the corporate world or in the share market or whatever else, then you say this is all God's will, you can sleep well, it's a good tranquilizer. You know, when Marx said it is the opium of the masses, people took it as something negative. It is not a negative thing. Lot of people are able to sleep only because they believe in God, otherwise they wouldn't be able to sleep. This is a very inexpensive psychiatry, you understand? Really? If you go to the modern psychiatrist, he can take only one client at a time and he needs furniture. This is an inexpensive psychiatry, wherever you are, whichever part of the world nobody is around you, you say, God is with me, you can sleep well tonight. So without this, most minds would break. It will take an extremely clear mind to exist here without the help of an outer agency. All others need it. So I don't wish to destroy that support for anybody, but you must decide are you looking for solace in your life or are you looking for a solution in your life? If you're looking at solutions, there is another way to approach. If you're looking for solace, just believing something always helps. So when you are a leader, I believe it's eroding these days looking at many leaders, but when somebody says he's a leader, I believe he's a solution for millions of people who are not able to find a solution by themselves for whatever reasons, yes? That's what a leader is supposed to be. But right now in this country, you can become a leader if you create a problem. You don't have to find any solutions. Please don't take my advice, nobody should take my advice. Because you're Mumbai curse, I'm afraid of you. See, if you want to become a leader, by tomorrow morning you want to be a recognized leader. By midday, by the time the midday paper comes, by twelve o'clock tomorrow, you want to be a recognized leader in Mumbai, just, you know, hire one segment. You don't need the whole hall. One segment of these people, maybe on hundred people, go half of you block one main artery, ceiling, why? It's easy to block. You block the ceiling and block one important railroad. By midday tomorrow, by the time midday comes out, you will be a leader in Mumbai. You build ten ceilings, you will not be a leader in this country. You just block one or you break one instant. So this is something that has to change in the nation's consciousness that people who create problems, we are identifying them as leaders, this is a hangover from the Satyagraha days of Mahatma Gandhi. But Mahatma Gandhi was putting spanner in the works for an occupation force. Every day he will call for non-cooperation, Satyagraha, he will fast and putting spanner in the works essentially. Their industry, their business, if it flourishes too much, he will put spanner in the works so that there is an impetus for them to leave, so that it's not too lucrative for them to stay forever. That's understandable, it was fantastic technology without killing people, without fighting a war, an effective way of doing it and he did it successfully, that's great. But that hangover is not gone in us today, even today. I see chief ministers who are fighting for their right to call for a ban. Stopping the nation is one kind of technology. Making it happen is another kind of technology. But there is going to be respite for us because this whole leadership business, if you look at it, see a few hundred years ago, the most dominant leadership on the planet was always religious leadership. Then slowly transit it into the hands of military leadership. From there in the last hundred and fifty years, gradually it moved into the hands of democratic leadership. And now in the last two decades, and particularly in the coming two decades, you will see leadership will largely move into the hands of economic leaders, business leaders, they will dominate, already it's beginning to happen. So we have moved from the shackles of religious dogma to the tyranny of military leadership to the confoundedness of democratic leadership. Now will the business leadership deliver? That's a question. Very, very good question, and that leads me to the next question, Sadhguru. That is, and I know you have very interesting views on it. Greed, greed, I'm talking of in the corporate context, and we'll explore many hues as we go along of greed. But I'm sure, you know, we would all be very curious to hear your views. See, once we have chosen, there was a time about twenty years ago, twenty-five years ago when India was vouching that we are a socialist country. Socialism is a watered-down version of communism. When you don't have the courage to be a communist, you become a socialist. Which has always been one of the serious problems with our nation, that we don't have the courage to say who we are, what we are, what do we intend. We'll always beat about the bush, we always beat about the bush. Which leaves everybody in confusion, you know, because nobody knows where we want to go. So, communism as an idea is a fantastic idea. Karl Marx might have known a lot about economics, but he knows very little about human beings. He predicted that the richest nations in the world will become communist. People will share their wealth with each other and how wonderful it's going to be the world. It's a fantastic dream. It's a beautiful dream. It's one of the best dreams the world has dreamed, that everybody will be equal, everybody will have everything. Nobody has to… you know, it's by our need, not by our greed. You may produce a billion dollars, I may produce nothing, but you are willing to share with me. This is a very beautiful story, incident which happened when Mark Twine visited. He was so excited. Wow, rich are going to share their wealth with the poor and everybody is going to be equal, equal opportunity for everyone. This is fantastic. Everybody wanted with lots of thinkers and authors from America traveled to Russia because they were so excited, this is it, the world is going to change. So, Mark Twine was walking in a country road. A country's Russian gentleman was walking in front of him with two hens under his arms. He ran up to him, caught up and he said, Comrade, are you really a communist? He said, yes I am, I am a party member. He said, is it true that if you have two bungalows, you will give away one to your comrade? Of course, if I have two bungalows, I will give away one to my comrade. I am a party member, I am an office bearer. If you have two carriages, will you give away one to somebody who needs it? Of course, I am a party member, I am the president in my village. I have two and I will. You have two hens, will you give away one of them? What the hell, that's all I have. So, people wanted to give away what they don't have. So, when the poor, when the poorest of the poor on the planet started talking about communism, communism became ugly. It's such a great idea if the rich and the wealthy and the capable had taken it, world would have become an ashram. Yes, it would have been a perfect spiritual setting, really. If the rich had taken it, now the poor took up the idea. What they could not earn, they want to take it by beating, banditry became a philosophy. What should have been a fantastic process of sharing and giving and an embrace of humanity turned into an ugly idea, most horrific things were done. During Joseph Stalin's time, they say over twenty-seven million Russians died. This is three times the number that died in World War II. That many people, Russian people died because the poor were trying to share something that they don't have. If the rich had shared, what a wonderful world it would have been. And the poorest of the poor talking about communism made it ugly. If the richest and the most capable on the planet had spoken about communism, it would have been the greatest idea. So we gave up that idea and now we chose capitalism. Somebody very prominent in the world declared capitalism is dead, you know? So I was with him recently and he was talking, see they printed like these headlines that I said capitalism is dead. Why it was called capitalism is because capital was only with certain people at that time. Now you have come, I see, I see, I bank, I can also have capital. Somebody else can also have capital. This was not the reality of the world hundred years ago. Only a few people on the planet were capable of capital. Nobody else had capital. So it became titled as capitalism. Now we are calling it market economy driven by the market. Market means profit. No profit you shouldn't talk about a marketplace. And when you have set up such a system, there is no room. In your vocabulary, there's no room for the word greed. If you use the word greed, what it means is you're operating market economy with communism going around in your head. Only if you're a communist you can talk about greed. If your market economy don't talk about greed, talk about better loss. If somebody is making a billion dollars per day, let's tax him. Nine hundred million you can tax him and that will be distributed anyway. But enough to give him incentive to go on, not to take away his spirit. So this is how capitalism is managed. Here you don't talk about this whole corporate social responsibility. I think it's funny. It is just an eye wash. Instead of that the government, if the administration, if it has the necessary sense, you can bring the right kind of policies where businesses can grow unbridled, but it will naturally benefit the rest of the society. This can be done with simple laws, taxation and other kinds of laws, business laws can do this. There's no need to talk about service. There's no need to talk about greed. Everybody can live with dignity because if you are the receiving end of the service, you lose your dignity. If you are at the giving end of the service, you go to heaven, both are wrong. What I hear Sadhguru saying is profit is a good motive and if you call it greed, that greed is good. And I think that is something that, you know, profit is something that... No, if you look at the definition of greed, what is greed? See for somebody who is walking to his workplace or his home, somebody who rides a bicycle and refuses to take him on the bicycle is greedy man. Somebody who is riding a bicycle sees a man driving a Maruti car and he thinks he is greedy. Just single man riding a Maruti car, he could take me, his family and my family in the Maruti car because Indians are able to squeeze. You know? A man who is driving a Maruti car when a Mercedes or a BMW whizzes past him, he says vulgarity of greed. A man who is driving BMW looks at a man who is driving a Bugatti and he thinks that is greed. So who is to set this definition for what is greed? I am saying once you have chosen market economy, there is no room for that vocabulary in your life. You understand greed is the driving force. Now it is for the loss to manage the greed so that your greed benefits everybody else. In African lore there is a saying, when the lion feeds, everybody else gets fed. So if you are a lion, you have a big capability, when you feed, it is the loss which should make it in such a way, if you make profit, everybody should live well. Instead of talking about greed and service and corporate social responsibility, I don't know why they are deviating themselves into all this... So stay focused on maximizing profitability, tax appropriately and let everybody grow. For the corporate world, slightly more difficult question, integrity, because that is something that is today seen as a premium. Exploring this whole issue of integrity a little more, corporate world you come across what term as shades of gray, are these artificial like the ego or are they real and what drives them and how do you actually put them to rest because this is surfacing more and more and they choose this, well it was gray so I chose a particular path. Basically in human life, whether it's personal life or corporate work life or social life, you cannot eliminate the gray. But the gray areas become very dominant in a society where the laws are not crystal clear. For the gray areas to be reduced, we must simplify the laws, we must make the laws in such a way that everybody can understand the law, only then it can be implemented. Do you... If you are in the highest level of banking, do you really believe you understand all the laws that are there in banking in India? Let me ask, I know you don't. Because... Yes, I did. Because nobody can understand this. It is such a confused... confusing nonsense that you leave so much gray area, now the only thing you can trade is gray, when half the street is gray you will naturally go. So basically you are saying, yes it is... you need to be clear in your mind and then take the path... No, no, what I'm saying is, what I'm saying is we are leaving the law making... As I said, we are in the transition where economic leadership is going to become more important in the coming years. It is time that economic leaders, significant leaders like you take this step that you have a role in the economic, the formation of economic things in the country. Right now political leaders who have no clue about what it is are trying to do it. You look at the budget, it's a political statement, it has no economic consequence, it's a sad thing. A booming economy is being systematically dismantled, that's how I see it. That's my understanding, I don't know how you see it. A very booming economy is systematically being dismantled, it's not necessarily because they intend to do it, simply because you're ham-handed, you don't understand what it is about. Economic leaders must take part in making the economic... economic loss. Now the reason why this is not allowed is, business and corporate leaders are seen as vested interests. So one important thing that you mentioned about integrity is that the business leaders should be able to shed this tag of being a vested interest. You must... This is a high time. As I said earlier, will the business leaders deliver, whether the deliverer or not simply depends on, are they able to shake off the vested interest tag? If you shake off the vested interest tag and build a trust with the people, then you will see economic leaders will participate in making of the economic loss. When that happens, we can reduce the grey areas considerably and we can set up highways to development, not obstacle courses. A complex problem because once you bring in vested interest, vested interest, it gets even more complex. I want to go on to something again in the corporate world which we are coming up, which we face and you have used a phrase, coming, going and staying. We are seeing that happen in the corporate world with all the constituents or major constituents or people. The approach is you come and you think of going even before you come and staying is a little further away from the mind. Even marriage should be coming. So your perspective is as a guru. See because as we looked at a corporation as a whole, also is thinking in terms of short-term benefits, there is no long-term commitment to what they want to create. People human beings also taking the same attitude. No human being can create anything truly wonderful if he is not absolutely devoted towards what he wants to do. Whether it's sports or economics, business, spirituality, it doesn't matter what, whatever. No human being will raise beyond mediocrity if he is not devoted to what he is doing. That means if you are devoted to what you are doing, the consequence of your work is not even an issue for you. What you are doing is the main issue for you. Now whether you stay in this company, that company is not the problem, but you want to create this is the problem. If you have that focus, then where you are doesn't matter, benefits will happen. The chances of you coming and going is very limited because you would like to… because it takes a certain amount of time to build teams, it takes a certain amount of time to may… you know, I mean evolve into a trustful position in any organization. Without people around you trusting you, without people around you looking up to you, nobody is going to achieve anything significant. Only they may get better salary. If somebody gives them few thousand rupees more, somewhere else, somewhere else they keep shifting, shifting, shifting. That is their commodities in the market, you can pick them and drop them. As people come and go, you also pick and drop because they don't show that commitment. So for those who are aspiring to be leaders, it's very important. The question is not about what is the consequence of your work. The question is about are you committed to creating whatever is valuable for you, whatever you think is truly valuable in the area of work that you are doing. Are you committed to this? Without this commitment and devotion to what we are doing, humanity will not… Every human beings will not raise beyond their mediocrity. It will be only about counting money, which will not mean anything beyond a certain point. When you are earning only five hundred rupees, a hundred rupee increment will mean a lot to you. But after some time, it is not something that even concerns you, what you are creating, what you are doing, what the situation allows you to do, whether you can find expression to your talent or not is the important thing. Instead of creating that space, if every two years you are shifting here and there, you lose out on that possibility of being a full-fledged human being. Instead of that, you will settle for being a commodity in the market. Very true. A lot of times in the business world, as in outside life, you try to say, I am doing this for the greater good. And people don't try to probably see where to draw the line. And for example, would you lie in the greater good sort of situation? I think most people already know it. I came on the television, somebody asked me, Sadhguru, would you lie? When would you lie or something like that? I said, whenever necessary. So they went on playing this thing on the television, Sadhguru says, he will lie whenever it's necessary. So obviously one who says he will not lie is lying because the definition of what is a lie has to be established within you. Now you are trying to create something for everybody's well-being. The thing is to make it happen. You are going by verbal realities. What is true and what is not true verbally is not the thing. In reality… So right now let me ask a simple question to all the audience. See, right now there is one new Kasab walking on the street. I was there also. He asked… Because he wants to find a packed house for his work. He asked, are there people in the hall? Tell me shall I lie or tell the truth? You tell me. Accordingly I'll do. Should I lie to him or tell him the truth? I will lie to him without batting an eyelid. I will. If you don't like it, I can't help it. That's how I am. That's a very, very, very perceptive question. Because the question is, are you ruled by morality or are you ruled by your consciousness of inclusiveness? That's a big question. Are you existing here as a piece of life or are you existing here as psychological structures of morality? I am here as a piece of life. My life reverberates with every other life and I will do whatever I have to do for that. Whatever. So there is a concept of greater good. As long as the good is something that you have, you can clearly identify, evaluate and then take a view on. I wouldn't say greater good or lesser good. Is your action inclusive or exclusive, that's all the question is. Inclusive means you're trying to take everything inward, exclusive means you're trying to push things out. Whatever you do something, will this lead to a larger sense of inclusiveness or will this set up exclusiveness? This is a question, this is the only crime on the planet, isn't it? See nobody has to tell you, nobody has to teach any human being, do not cut up your child, do not cut up your own little finger. No such thing is needed because what is a part of you, with that you are safe. What you think is not yours, that is where the problem is, isn't it? Someone said, you know who, he said the other is hell. If you think there is something other than you, you will start creating hell anyway. If you see everything as a part of yourself, then whatever is needed you do. That was very well put, in fact it drove home the point so well and you used such a… an example where nobody felt guilty in taking a view. I'm saying this because sometime back the same question was posed by a professor in a different way. Same situation, he says to find out where this person is going to next attack and or do something, we need to torture him, will you torture him or not? Now, I think the example that you used brought out the morality of it very clearly, that is it an inclusive act or is it not an inclusive act, can you take a view based on that? No, we have found better solutions in India because we are a land of truth, we have a truth serum. We don't beat them anymore. The question I have is still on the… in the corporate world. One big issue that is coming up now is work-life balance and the young Indian is today seized of this question as indeed young people everywhere in the world. So particularly in the American milieu, I see because I mix with this, you know people there. In India it's not so tight, people still are little between both. In United States it's so strictly done, Friday morning they are already in their beach shorts in the office. Inside their trousers they got beach shorts, when they come out of the parking lot they're pulling it out. Because Friday evening they don't want to be seen in their pinstripe, they want to be seen in the beach shorts. So this distinction between work and what is considered fun or pleasure is too stark. That is mainly because you're suffering your work. If you are enjoying your work, that distinction wouldn't be so stark. If you… if you went to your work like you're going there to have a love affair. If it was a love affair, for me my work is a love affair. If I work twenty-twenty-two hours a day, I don't feel that you know something has been taken away from me because you're doing what you care to do. If you're doing what you really care to do in your life, if you're constantly creating what you care to do in your life, everywhere you go no matter whether it's a workspace or on the street, wherever you're constantly striving to create what you care for, then you will see you're like on a holiday always. It's always pleasure. Sometimes you need a break from the… this thing for the physical body. If you need a break from work, I think you need to look at yourself. That means you're doing something that you don't really care for. If you're doing something that you truly care for, why would you want to break? I would like to have forty-eight hours per day if it's possible. But you know, even a mystic is not given extension. I just tricked on the twenty-four hour schedule. I'm willing and I'm energetic enough to go forty hours a day, but they don't give extra time. You know. I asked this question of Sadhguru as you're driving here, you know, how long is your day? Very differently. And Sadhguru said, well it's around eighteen-twenty hours and of course, if needed it extends even longer. I didn't know that it extends beyond twenty-four hours, but I can well believe that it extends beyond twenty-four hours for you sir. No, even a mystic and a yogi is not given even a minute extension, that's a problem with the creation. It doesn't matter who you are, you don't get an extension, it gets over, it gets over. So now this distinction between work and pleasure being so stark is not a healthy thing, that you enjoy the weekend and you suffer the week. It's not a good way to exist. The last question I'll ask before we open it up is to do with social media and the rise of social media. How do you see that impacting our lives? And as broadband connectivity grows and it's growing at a rapid pace in India, I think a billion Indians will be connected and could be participants in this big net as it were. I even met the person who started this Facebook thing and you know about eight months ago I was telling my daughter, show me this, what is this Facebook I've never seen. She said, oh this is not for you. I said, why is it not for me? Am I so ancient that I can't book up somebody's face? She said, that's not it. She said, that's not it. You are anyway connecting with millions of people just like that. So why do you need Facebook? She said. I said, but I want to see what it is. She said, no, it's not why it's just rubbish. Then I said, it's rubbish, why do you go on it? She says, I have no other way to connect. You just connecting with people like this, so you don't have to go on it. I have no other way to connect, so I go on it. And my time on the Facebook is from I have this, she was telling me, it's from the age of sixteen, now she's twenty-two, she said it is reducing for me because I am able to connect better as the days go by. And when I was sixteen, I couldn't connect with anybody, so I was always on the Facebook. Now I'm able to connect better, so I'm going off the Facebook gradually but I'm keeping it like a little bit. So in some way, from her wisdom I am understanding this, some way if you're not able to get along with people who are sitting right next to you right now, you would like to connect with somebody far away. It's safe, it is, it doesn't cost anything. If you have to fall in love with the person who is next to you right now, it costs life. You have to give away a part of your life, otherwise it's not going to work. You can love somebody in New Zealand. Every day he will write love letters to you, you can write love letters to him, you don't even know whether it's a man or a woman because we do not know how many faces he has. And it is a kind of an entertainment and a distraction. This is not new, I want you to understand. People have been doing this for a long time. Now this Facebook or long-distance love affair is not a new thing. People have been doing this in their own way without technology, now they're using technology. I'm not saying it's wrong but I'm saying it may make people wear a remote islands in the world that they think, sitting in their room, they're having a great relationship with the world without ever knowing what human transaction is because every human being has to learn human transaction because if you do not learn human transaction, you will not become a human being, you will become a psychological being, a mass of nonsense in your head and you think that's everything. Only when you're transact with people, when there is giving and taking and the borders are crossed and somebody irritates you, somebody steps on your leg and somebody steps on your head and they do all kinds of things, when they do all these kinds of things, you understand your limitations, your boundaries, your struggles. This is very needed for human growth. In some way, in one way it is enhancing but in another way it is making lots of people a kind of islands. So what I would say is technology has no quality of its own, it's just an enabling. How we use it, it can be, it can make us or it can break us. So it is left to the individual and it is left to the cultures, left to the educational institutions and people who are educators who are involved in it to bring this awareness into the child that technology is made for our well-being, not to destroy ourselves. If this is thought to every child, I think they will use it in a positive way. Thank you. We can open this a few questions to the audience. I said in the making of the laws, economic leaders have to be included, especially the economic laws. Once that happens, the next step of how it is used also will come into their hands. I am saying the law making should not be the prerogative of people who just from nowhere they pounce and just land in the parliament just like that. I mean the statistics that they are giving, I don't know if it's all genuine statistics or you can trump up cases against people in this country. But what they are saying, how many people have… I mean yesterday Anna Hazare has been going about giving statistics, I don't know if all this is real. I can't… I would like to believe it's not real. Number of people against whom murder cases are there, number of people against whom rape cases are there, number of people who have other kinds of criminal cases against them, convictions, convictions must be true, cases may be trumped up. When you look at this, if these people are going to decide how the money is going to be used we very well already know how it's going to be used. Now the thing is we have come to a place, we have come to a place where people are not even expecting integrity from the political leadership. Even that expectation is gone. Even if there is somebody with some integrity he comes, we already branded him that he's no good, anyway he's going to be a thief. If this has to change, one thing is corporate leader, leadership has to show a different dimension of integrity and they should get a foothold into the lawmaking process, particularly concerning the economy because today almost everything in the country is determined by an economic process. The whole world is like this. There was a time when little countries were divided in terms of ideologies and stuff. There's only one ideology, are you successful or not in the economic market? So when that is, that is the mode we have taken, I'm not saying this is an ideal thing. When that's the mode we have taken, we better succeed in that. See you, you start playing football and now you want to take the ball in your hand and run away, that is destroying the game. You've chosen to play football. In football you have to run with the same two feet and also kick the ball, which makes it little less efficient. If you take it in your hand and run you could be more efficient, but you've chosen to play football and that's the way you play it. You can't change the game in the middle of the game. Suddenly you can't say, I will play some other game, okay? Now we have chosen a market economy, our business is to make it a successful process which will bring well-being for all the people in the country and in the world. If this has to happen, people who are the real participants in the economic process, which is the economic leaders and the business leaders, they must have a role in making of the law and to some extent in the enforcement of the law, otherwise how? Thank you, Sadhguru, on that note, wealth to well-being and all the challenges in between and that we explored a whole range of issues, most of them relating to the business world, the corporate world, a few of them to the real life beyond the corporate world and I'm sure we're all the rich here for it. Thank you very much.