 Good morning again everybody. I am delighted to have next me Dr. Saganet, who looks after the biosciences for Eastern Central Africa network. Saganet, nice to see you. We've met, but not really had a discussion about this before I left. I am trembling, I am trembling. Good, I am glad you are. So you are a molecular plant pathologist embedded in a livestock institute. Are you out of your comfort zone? Very good question. Not really, because a lot of the technology is cut across. My training applies to livestock and so on. However, and I have been in my previous job also, I have worked on forages, which is really fit for cattle, for livestock. However, there are a lot of things I am learning and I am learning also. Talking to all these funny livestock people, they have a strange way of thinking. Do they not? Do you get on with it? Yes, I get on with it. Now, Becker is part of NEPAD's Africa Biosciences Initiative, right? This is along with Southern Africa, which is San Bio, and then there is a WABnet for West Africa and a NABnet for North Africa. Is that right? Who do you report to then? Do you report to any of this broader NEPAD or what? That's a very good question. These four African Biosciences Initiative networks, three of them are managed by NEPAD, directly under NEPAD, African Union. Becker is the only hub which is under Italy, managed by Italy and it is part of Italy. So we have an informal interaction with NEPAD and the other networks, but we have no reporting relationship with EU NEPAD. Why is that? That's a bit strange. Should it not be under NEPAD? Should it all be one family, otherwise you are losing the sort of thrust that NEPAD wants to have? Well, yeah. Tell me what's so funny. I think part of the success of... I think it's the path. I think part of the success of Becker is because it is part of Italy. So part of, for example, at the moment the Becker hub is probably 13 times larger than the whole of the NEPAD combined together. So the success is, I think, because we are part of... Let me explore that a bit further. My understanding is while there is a corporate mission to build capacity in biosciences, that each of them has got a different thematic focus. So you've got crops and livestock, you've got in Becker, you've got human health in Southern Africa, you've got environment, I don't know which one that fits in. How does that work, assigning thematic responsibilities on a geographic basis? I think the whole idea is that there would be a differentiation and specialization in different areas. However, that doesn't really exclude, for example, the Becker at the moment service, for example, a number of regions also outside the Eastern and Central Africa region also. So it's not completely exclusive that somebody who needs capacity building and crop, for example, from outside of the... So you're going to West Africa and do crop biosciences support? We provide support to those... You do? Yes, and the one need, for example, a number of one need scientists have been trained at Becker. So there is an interaction. However, we give priority to the Eastern and Central African... Now the Eastern African region has seen progressive decline in many laboratory facilities, particularly the veterinary side, which was my forte, and Illry has given lip service and some technical support to rebuilding that capacity, and then along comes Becker as a competitor to those very facilities that Illry was trying to help build. Is that not a little bit of an upside down situation? It's not really... We are not really competitors. We are really aiming at the upstream, research upstream facility while supporting the region to build their own infrastructure also. Otherwise, all the capacity building that we do would not have any effect unless the people go to... that we train have a place to work in their own home. But what direct input do you have to some of those institutes? You're training people, but what direct input? How do you help them keep those laboratory facilities to the level that they need when they go back following training? We do various things, but you have to remember we are a very small team. We are only 4% of the total Illry people. The number of people in Becker is a small team, but we work together with the biotechnology team, we work with other teams to really... another number of other partners to support the region. So in terms of infrastructure, we are, for example, supporting the Node EIR in Holetta to build this capacity in biotechnology. We are supporting the Guru University in Uganda. We are strategically supporting a number of laboratory sacrosis. Okay, let me follow up on that. Was it correct to build Becker at Illry? Would it not have been more appropriate to put it at Holetta, or Maguga, or Temeke? Why put it in Illry? That doesn't strike me as being consistent with development. Okay, I think it is correct to build it at Illry. First, because we use the existing infrastructure to build additional infrastructure to upgrade the current infrastructure. The location is very good. We get also a lot of support. We use the whole of Illry infrastructure, the procurement, everything, the financial system. So I think being part of Illry is part of the success of Becker. So it was really part of a risk reduction factor by the sponsors, was it? Well, yeah, it reduces the risk, I think, for Becker, but I think it is also a huge asset for Illry also, in a number of ways, as we see it now. Okay, I read on the Syngenta, you have support from Syngenta, I read on the Syngenta website, that Becker will increase access to affordable, note that word, world-class research facilities in Illry. But I understand your target clients cannot afford you. So here you are, building this up, and you're too darned expensive. Okay, I knew that was coming. Yes, I think for the general African client, we are expensive, we are inaccessible. However, we are raising a lot of money, including Syngenta, including Australia, Sweden, and the Gates Foundation, and many others, to make it affordable, to reduce the cost, basically for the African clients. We are sure that we can do that. Okay, your funding you mentioned, you've got CEDA, and this new CEDA of $12 million, or something like that. What is that for? That is for, principally, the fund was for food security, for Africa, however, it was supposed to be 100% for research. However, we negotiated a portion of it to be for capacity, we deemed to make it also accessible for African Africa. Okay, I was going to ask you, so your general funding that you're raising, are they under specific research funding, or institutional development, and you're basically saying they're both? Both, yes, both. Otherwise, it would be very difficult to make it accessible to our African clients, or the major and basic clients that they're interested in. Okay, but I'm also a little bit confused. I understand that you've been praising the fact that you're in Illyria. Illyria is a livestock institute, but I understand you're more involved in crop research than livestock. Are you known for guinea pigs, mushrooms, and mycotoxins? I think it is a misconception to say that it's all the majority crops. The demand, there's a high demand in crops, and I think it reached a dim reset. There is also, I think, at the moment, there's quite a bit of balance. We have research on, we support research in visiting the biotech team in African Swine Fever, BBBR, in CBBP. We have work on aflatoxin, which cuts across for animal as well as human and crop hills. We have work also on a variety of animal health issues and genetic resources. So it's really a mix of this, because I think it only cuts across all organisms. Okay, so you do a lot of support work for Illyria, biosciences. Is that correct? Okay, you tell me, do you? I think the support comes from both sides. I think it's more of a partnership work. Do you work with Illyria or do you provide the technical support to Illyria's research? We work for Illyria and with Illyria. This is our study. We are not a separate team, and we want to be seen and we want to be embraced as 100% part of Illyria. Isn't there some... I mean, you've got a biosciences group and you are running a biosciences facility, so you've got all the hardware and some software, and they've got some of the research issues. Do you not confuse people by being aware of who does what? Yeah, a lot of people get confused. I think a lot of people within Illyria get confused. Even within Illyria? When you come in, for example, when you come into Illyria, in Nairobi, there's a huge billboard. So the first thing you see is biosciences, and then all of us are hosted in institutions. That gives the impression that we are a separate institution. So that is part of... So it's quite a bit of confusion on that. So yes, we are focused on Africa. We have created to really serve Africa, to enhance biosciences capacities in Africa. And the whole infrastructure at the moment, the whole laboratory infrastructure is under breakout management. But when it comes to getting money and research grants, etc., you are in direct competition with Illyria. No, no. We are not in direct competition. Explain how you are not in direct competition. How would we be in direct competition with Illyria? Well, you are going for research grants on certain things. You're competing for the same pot of money. We are not competing for the same type of money, but I think, for example, the biotech team can actually leverage Beckham to raise a lot more money without it. There is no direct competition. We are picking some areas which are, for example, are not covered by the biotech team, which is not a major, for example. We find an African scientist to work on poultry diseases, for example, and Illyria is not doing that. We are supporting some things that are a priority to African countries, but they are not a priority in the Illy portfolio. There is really not that big of a competition. It's not a competition. However, there is a lot of synergies that can be created to really boost Illyria's bio-sciences capacity and ability to attract new scientists. I noticed on the website, which is quite a nice list. You've got a long list of publications. On your Becker publications, I noticed that some go back to 2003 and to me, I saw my colleague, Subash Mazzaria, on one of those and I thought, who's Subash left eight years ago? What's he got to do with Becker? While I praise the availability of publications and references, you've got the highly somnastic prize in 1974 from Emperor Ali Somnasticus before you, but are you also an empire building? Okay, very good. I think everybody should aspire to build the empires. If you stop having ambition, then you are sort of some idea. So my advice is that everybody has to aspire to that empire building. However, on the part of the publications, some of the publications that are listed are basically also relevant publications that doesn't mean that those are better publications. Publications that are relevant, which will enhance the whole of Illyria and its capacity what it does. But everybody knows that Becker was not even functional in 2003. So that doesn't mean that those are completely Becker's publications. Okay. And thanks for being your co-worker. Well, I was actually just down the road in 1974 because I lived here that time, and you were probably, you know, the Charlie Tanya. I've been told that we need to start wrapping up. So your relationship with it, how are you going to, you say it's an evolving relationship? What are the specific things that you've got planned to make this partnership more functional and more transparent? A partnership with Illyria, particularly with the Biosciences Group. Okay. I think there are a number of things that the biotech team and us need to do to create a win-win situation not only for the region, but also for Illyria as a whole. So there will be a number of areas that we are going to work together. And this is quite a bit of also, previous from Jimmy that for us to do that and we'll do that. So I think coming together also, I want also to emphasize that a lot of our capacity building, the BACAS capacity building is done in collaboration with the biotech team and the other partners that have hosted with us. So without that, as I said, it's where only 4% of the total are Illy workforce so that it will be very difficult to achieve what we have achieved so far. Okay. Dr. Sayounid, thank you very much. Enjoy talking to you. Thank you.