 Okay, I will call this meeting of the Marina Parks and Forestry Commission to a Porter. We will begin first with the Pledge of Allegiance, United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Okay, the first item will be a roll call. Alderman Decker is here. Rebecca Clark did not see. Jerry Jones? I'm here. I'm sorry. Oh, okay. My screen isn't up. Hello Rebecca. Jerry Jones, John Kaler, March Matter. Peter, Peter Mayer. Yes. Sarah, Dennis is here. Dennis, and Joel Curlin, and I'm here. We have a quorum and March. March Matter. Thank you. Is there any public input for this meeting this evening? If not, we will move right. If not, we will... I'm sorry. Was there? No. If not, we... This is James. I'm here and I'm observing and I might comment. Okay, could we have your first name? Full name, please. James Owen. Okay, thank you. And did you have a comment for us? Not yet. Okay. Okay. Well, if there isn't anything now, I will close the public input section of this of this meeting. The next item would be the approval of the minutes of the February 25th meeting that was sent out to all of the committee members earlier. I would make a motion to approve that. We have a motion and we have a second. Any discussion on that motion? If not, all those in favor, please signify by saying aye. I don't think I can vote on the minutes because I wasn't at that meeting. Okay. You're going to abstain then. Okay. Any opposed? Chair also votes aye. So that motion is carried. Okay. The next agenda item is the review and consideration of proposed JC Park master plan. And for that, I'm going to turn this over to Joe Curlin. Thank you, Chair. We started working on this plan in January, but David Bebel and myself have been discussing the need for this plan for several years. JC Park has been owned by the city since 1943 and used as a recreational destination since 1963. There has since been a few different plans and many different uses. It seems that the beach may have been used as a swimming area since 1965. Since then, it has gone from having lifeguards and concessions to being closed and then open with no lifeguards, no amenities. In 2013, the city worked with a private organization to open a pay-for-play area with the beach and swimming. The attraction, the big attraction at that time and still is is the use of wibbits which are inflatable elements in the water and had been growing for several, the use of these wibbits have been growing for several years in different campgrounds and other communities. After seeing the success that this new partnership had, it was really the basis for realizing that a new park plan was needed for JC Park. The plan would guide us for a future development of the park. Over the course of this year, the city hired Graf USA Consulting, an outside consultant to facilitate this plan. I would like to introduce Joe Porter, Ed Freer and Alex Thiel. They are representatives of Graf and they will be walking through the plan this evening. What I am looking for at the end of this evening is a recommendation of approval to be sent to the next Public Works Committee. Thank you. Joe? Thanks Joe. Can you hear me okay? We can. Okay great. Thank you all for your attendance and interest in this important master plan initiative. I apologize that you cannot see my face right now in having some camera issues, but more importantly, I believe you can all see the presentation. So that's better than nothing. I hope you're all doing well and staying healthy during these challenging times and is also the reason for doing this virtually. So bear with us please as we navigate the new technology that's required for this type of virtual presentation. As Joe Kurlin mentioned, we were hired by the City of Sheboygan Department of Public Works at the beginning of 2020 and have been working on this project basically in in full speed basically since March and what we will be presenting tonight is the result of all the work that's been done since March with a lot of involvement from the Department of Public Works as well as the City Appointed Steering Committee and a stakeholder group that represented Marriott users of the park and we also had a public engagement process through a public information meeting in October. So I think what we would like to do is kind of go through the process and run through the report briefly and then focus in on basically the final design that was a result of all the public input that we received since March along with a comprehensive analysis of the site of the site's existing conditions. So with that I'll jump right in and I'm not sure Alex Bill who is with Grape has been assisting with this process throughout as well as at Freer. And I think toward the end, you know, if there are questions and comments I'd appreciate those waiting until the end of this presentation just to make it a more seamless process. So as you can see here, this is the cover page of the report and kind of an iconic image associated with the park, JC Park. It's, you know, a former quarry and as a result of quarry operations, as a result of quarry operations, you know, you have really interesting and unique natural geography with the quarry lake and the surrounding bluffs. But the report kind of goes through the park itself has undergone a series of plans and initiatives since the 1960s. Some more practical and some quite ambitious on the ambitious end, you know, including in the 1980s, a proposed wave pool with 300 foot slides and amphitheater seating. And so there's been a lot of thought in terms of how this park could or should be used by the community. And, you know, when we were hired, we were tasked to kind of re-envision the park for not only the current needs and desires of the community, but also future needs and desires, not just the community, but, you know, in an effort to try to make this park a more regional destination. So, you know, we cover the history at the beginning of the report. And then we go through the methodology, which basically included a really extensive site inventory and analysis and a study on kind of the regional context of the park. So this slide or rather page in the report here illustrates, you know, the JC Parks relationship with other nearby destinations and, you know, the circles represent, you know, different biking and walking distances from Corey Park all the way to just about a 20-minute bike ride to Ballarat Park on Lake Michigan coast. So it's near a lot of other important destinations. It's the northern part of the park is formed by the Pigeon River, which is a tributary of Lake Michigan. And during higher water is important spawning ground for Steelhead Trout. And the Calamity Drive serves as kind of the northwestern gateway into the city. So, you know, on either side, you have Evergreen Park to the south of Calamity Drive. And on the north, you have JC Park, which basically frame this gateway experience as people enter from the northwest. The only problem is that you can't really see the park from the road. And so, you know, that lack of identity really was important to address as part of this process. This is another view that shows kind of the Pigeon River, you know, forming the northern edge of the park and running all the way to Lake Michigan there. Evergreen Park is on the other side of Calamity Drive. And Maywood is just upstream as well. This is just an aerial photo showing the existing conditions. The yellow lines represent the existing trails. You see the Pigeon River. There is a sliver, basically a triangular sliver of land that the city owns that is technically part of the park, but very difficult to access because it's the road grades along Calamity Drive. There are extremely steep and then there's no bridge to access across the river there. There is, however, an underground or sorry, an underpass, a pedestrian underpass below Calamity Drive that connects Evergreen Park to JC Park, which serves as an important safe passage for bicyclists and pedestrians alike. There's a 20-hole Frisbee Golf Course on site, which you can kind of see here. These are the actual holes and sorry, the tees and the baskets. And although traditionally, there are 18 holes, there's enough space in JC Park to accommodate for 20 holes. So when we first started working on this project, Grace met with the steering committee to walk the site and take a photographic inventory. And what we did is combining the photographic inventory along with a bunch of digitally mapped data. We pulled together a comprehensive analysis that identified opportunities and constraints or challenges associated with the site and how it might be reimagined in the future. And as opposed to getting into the, so this is an exhibit that we generated, which is basically the analysis. And we go into, we elaborate on those opportunities and challenges a little bit in more detail here in the following pages of the report. So, you know, and I don't want to belabor the analysis, but it was an important part of the process and informed a lot of the decisions moving forward as far as design recommendations were concerned and it helped educate people, even people familiar with the site. It helped educate, you know, everyone involved with this project about, you know, some of the nuances associated with the site, you know, the topography, their steep topography, low line wetlands, forested areas, the bluffs, etc. I'm going to hop back here, but as you can, as most of you probably already know, the, you know, 75% of quarry lake is surrounded by bluffs and that's, you know, a result of the former quarry operations, limestone quarry operations. And so that creates this beautiful scene, but it also presents, you know, a challenge in terms of physical access into the lake, especially when considering ADA accessibility. There's also liability issues, safety concerns associated with, you know, people, you know, cliff jumping and thanks of that nature. You know, a huge opportunity is to build upon that connectivity that underpassed between Evergreen Park and JCPark, below Kelamit Drive. You know, the park injury experience, there's an opportunity there to improve that via, you know, selective tree removal. You know, obviously, we want to respect, you know, the healthy trees that are on site, but if we can, you know, selectively cut and enhance views into the park and frame views of park shelters and the lake, I think that would really enhance the injury experience into the park. Trail enhancements, a lot of trails on site are single track mud and not very well maintained. You can see, you know, this middle shot is incredible purge views, panoramic views of the lake from the bluffs and the surrounding trails. There's passive recreation opportunities with the forest kind of on the northeast side of the park. The lake itself is actually spring fed, so it's consistently fair to good water quality, which makes it that much more of an important amenity for the community. The 20 hole Frisbee Gulf course is a very popular activity and it's, I think, one of two nearby, including ball rest that kind of people within Shibuygan and the surrounding community use. Challenges, as far as beach access right now, it's pay to use beach access, but from an ADA accessibility standpoint, you know, trying to consider how to make it more universally accessible. The quarry view center, it's, you know, it's a dated structure, but more importantly, it blocks views of one of the most important assets of the park, which is the beach. And so considering how that plays into the future of the park in terms of entry experience and visual access into the park is important. There's a chain link fence that surrounds a significant portion of that beach and adjacent shoreline, which, you know, serves as a deterrent from physical access into the lake. There's outdated playground equipment. There's dead end parking off to the east near the Frisbee Gulf course that is somewhat underutilized. There's steep slopes along the east side of the park that, you know, again, you know, make for interesting terrain, but it's a challenge in terms of physical access to certain parts of the park. There's significant erosion along the Pigeon River that's starting to threaten the usability of some of the trails that run along the river there. The eastern entrance off Mill Road is nice, but there's no really good signage there, so it's hard as you're driving by unless you, you know, are familiar with the park. You know, if you're just a visitor driving by, you would never know that that's kind of the eastern gateway into J.C. Park. So, you know, I kind of just breeze through that and of course you will all have access to the report, you know, after this meeting to read a little bit more about kind of those opportunities and challenges that were identified during the analysis phase of the project, but another important phase of this design process was community engagement. So, along with the analysis, you know, community engagement really helped inform decisions moving forward with the design. So, the community engagement was kind of three, there were three tiers of engagement. There was engagement with the steering committee, there was engagement with a stakeholder group that represented, you know, primary users of the park, and then there was a public information meeting and all three of those meetings we presented some very preliminary concept diagram alternatives, three alternatives that focused on some preliminary program elements that might be included in the future of the park and the relationship of those program elements geographically with one another to try to facilitate dialogue and get input from the three groups, you know, to try to identify likes and dislikes. So, as you can see here that these are photos of a couple of those workshops where we presented the three alternatives and allowed people to not only provide input narrative afterward, but to also mark with green or red dots what they liked versus disliked respectively in each one of the design alternatives. To supplement the design alternatives, we had some design precedent imagery that illustrated how some of those program elements could be exemplified on site. So, you know, these design alternatives for very high level diagrammatic, you know, we didn't want to get too presumptuous about what should happen in the park, but just diagrammatically showing some of the program elements that seemed to make sense based upon the analysis we did and then supplemented with the design imagery, we were able to facilitate pretty constructive dialogue with those groups that participated in the input sessions. And so, this page of the report here just shows kind of a snapshot of those results, which were then summarized, but you can see here each one of those design alternatives or diagrammatic design alternatives were presented and then the bulleted program elements below. So, you see here JC Park concept alternative one, you know, one option showed a new building in place of the core review center. Another showed a renovation of JC core review center with a new multi-use building kind of on the southeast corner of the lake. And then another option where there was a new building in place of the core review center with a smaller shelter kind of at the southeast corner and then another ancillary structure like a tiki hut of sorts kind of on the north side of the existing beach area. So, those were the free alternatives that were discussed during those input sessions and then the precedent imagery to supplement those diagrams are also included in the report. And so, as you can see the red is obviously a dislike and the green is a like, but you know, we quantified the likes versus the dislikes of the precedent imagery that were associated with the program elements proposed in each one of those design alternatives. So, you know, a lot of the likes were associated with a new park building as well as new concessions possibly a beer garden. There is seem to be a lot of gravitation, gravitational interest toward some idea of a beer garden or concessions area that could be shared between not only the pay per use beachgoers but the general park users as well. There is a, you know, a lot of interest in the frisbee golf activity and but not so much interest interestingly enough in any sort of playground. There's a lot of interest in enhancing the trail system both for pedestrians and cyclists. There's a lot of interest in more passive recreation for bird watching and nature enthusiasts. And again, kind of been a lower left here, you know, a lot of interest in, you know, some sort of outdoor gathering in staging area. And to help summarize what we heard in the report, we kind of included a lot of the reoccurring statements, the most popular statements and included some of that in the report to give people an understanding of of, you know, what was, you know, the most popular thoughts moving forward with an informed design, you know, so you see the trail improvements in hierarchy needed. The idea of a multi-use building was something that a lot of people liked beer garden sustainable design elements integrated throughout the park. So with that, you know, all that public input and, you know, this comprehensive analysis really informed the final design, which is really an amalgamation of, you know, all of, you know, the best ideas from each of the three alternatives. It wasn't just taking one of those preliminary alternatives and moving forward with the refinement of that, but it was really kind of picking and choosing elements of each of the three into a into a fourth kind of preferred what we are calling a consensus plan, because what it represents is basically the, you know, the the needs and desires of not only the City of Sheboygan's Department of Public Works, but the community as a whole. And that was a reflection of that, the the engagement process. So there's a numerical keys of significant proposed improvements for the park. And we kind of dive into each one of those elements in the subsequent subsequent pages of the report. But to summarize, you know, providing some framed views into, you know, the the number one asset of the park, which is Quarry Lake, right? So to really improve kind of the identity of the park along Calamity Drive and to enhance visitors entry experience so that they have, you know, there's this aha kind of point of discovery moment as you enter the driveway and it tees into a couple of different parking lots. There's a new beach house proposed in place of the existing Quarry View Center. There's also a new multi use building kind of at the southwest corner of the lake. The existing beach is preserved, but for those park users who don't want to necessarily pay for that beach access, a perched beach that doesn't have physical access to the lake, but provides an opportunity for people to have those similar beach experiences without paying to access the pay-per-use beach is available is another experience. We're preserving the Frisbee Golf Course. There is a 10 foot wide paved multi-use path that creates a loop experience around Quarry Lake. And not only does that create a new experience for park users, but it also provides better service access for maintenance vehicles to maintain the park in a more efficient manner. On the north corner of the lake, there's a smaller open air shelter that's perched up on top of the on top of the bluff there and in between a tiki bar on the north side of the beach and this shelter is an kind of open flexible lawn area for larger events and activities and you know what we really tried to focus on was the flexibility of how these proposed improvements are used both for public events and private events. So a lot of these amenities could be rented out to generate revenue to support kind of ongoing maintenance of the park in the future. There's a kind of the north-eastern corner of the lake right off this loop trail. There's a more intimate counseling with commanding views of the wasn't horizon kind of looking back towards the beach and then as moving clockwise you know the loop trail wraps around kind of the opposite end of the parking area that helps support the new multi-use building and in a way that segregates those somewhat uses. So people who might be at a building for private events aren't going to get in the way of you know cyclists enjoying you know their lake loop experience and vice versa. There's also you know we were careful to propose some vegetative buffering between the frisbee golf course and the multi-use building as well as the loop trail. And kind of the north-eastern half of the park remains quite passive. We are proposing some trail improvements within that area as well as a section of shoreline stabilization along the Pigeon River where there's a significant erosion evident and we thought it would be an opportunity to provide some some enhanced access to the water where that stabilization would occur. So that's kind of a brief summary of the consensus plan and then we kind of dive in a little bit deeper into each one of those proposed improvements. So the report is organized so that each one of those keys keyed elements in the plan is elaborated on with its own kind of narrative kind of describing kind of in a little more detail what that program elements represents and and what it offers to the to the general public along with kind of a class the you know order of magnitude cost. So as you can see in the lower left corner this is kind of a planned enlargement of that multi-use building. You know we think with any new building in this day and age there's an opportunity to integrate Korean infrastructure whether that's through you know recycled materials you know gray water used for toilets, stormwater, bio-infiltration, you know green roofs. There's opportunity to do things that not only are sensitive to our environment but actually kind of expand the life cycle cost of the structures. So it's its wise investment on many different levels. So kind of the north or sorry the top right corner you can kind of see a character sketch of what that structure might look like with kind of commanding views on top of the bluff looking toward the toward the existing beach with concessions kind of on the southwest corner that bleed out into flexible open space. Oops bear with me here and here's another kind of aerial shot to help everyone imagine what that could potentially look like. Again this is a master plan so we're talking about big ideas here. You know we're not getting into the the weeds of the details yet you know that would happen once the master plan is approved and funding becomes available for one or more of these proposed improvements. So try to keep that in mind when you're looking at these images that you know that you know the architecture you know it's it's it's right size for 150 capacity you know it it addresses the desire for concessions and for private events but it really you know needs to be there needs to be another layer of detail before any of this stuff gets implemented or constructed but you what it does what this illustration does show is its relationship to the lake and views across the lake to the beach and to the tiki hut and you can kind of see Calamity Drive and the distance kind of coming down the hill from the western horizon there just to orient you. Let's see here stalled out there we go and so the the new beach house to replace the core review center you can see a plant enlargement of that in the top right of the page. It's generally in the same location you can see the the the ten foot wide multi-use trail kind of wrapping around the one important thing to keep in mind from a liability standpoint is that there will there is and will continue to get pay line for people that want to use that beach and access the water so there will be some type of fence or barrier so that people that are using the park daily users of the park that don't want to use the beach can do so without co-mingling with people who are paying to use the beach and in the the lower left corner you can see kind of a reimagined part shelter again you know focusing on transparency so you see a lot of glass here because we don't want to obstruct views of of that beach amenity and then there would be expanded infrastructure so large you know there'd be a bath there would be showers of bath house there would be concessions in this building as well and and and some storage for not only the tenant of the beach house but the Department of Public Works as well and you can kind of see in the background the the the tiki hut across the lake kind of on the north side of the beach there one big idea that I think everyone seemed to like was expanding the waterfront kind of along the southern shore of the lake and I'm going to flip back to the plan here but what we did is we shifted the parking lot further away from the lake to create more usable space close to the lake for park users and activities that those users might be interested and we talked about this perched beach area so again kind of close to that new beach house you know is a publicly accessible perched beach does not provide physical access you know it's on that bluff there it doesn't provide physical access to the water but it allows people to enjoy the beach experience without paying to use the beach that's associated with the water park this is another illustration kind of if if you were kind of floating above Calamity Drive kind of looking to the to the southeast over the new beach house the little overlook you can see the beach wrapping around the southwestern corner of the lake and then the tiki the tiki hut kind of book ending that experience and the tiki hut I should say would is is meant to be flexible enough to accommodate both private and public uses so it could also be rented out for for private events it's also a staging area for a potential ropes course that people express interest in we talked about the multi-use lake loop trail so that's that's something that really builds upon the you know the the asset of the lake and celebrates it as a unique feature unique to you know the lake makes this little inland lake that's a result of former quarry operations really and the the surrounding bluffs really makes jc park you know just as as a currently is one of the most unique parks in the region so you know really trying to build upon that asset and celebrate it and and get the most out of that is um you know one of one of the our objectives of of this project and and the the paved multi-use lake loop trail does that it creates kind of a destination experience for people who might be using the bike trails in evergreen park that want to kind of finish with the loop around the lake or it might attract people from well outside of of shabuigan to do a a loop lake kind of experience you know it's it's short enough it's long enough to be interesting but short enough to take the entire family so we think it's it would be a great addition to the park and this is a view kind of looking to the north side of the beach kind of with the tiki bar framing the left side of the composition and looking back toward the new beach house you can kind of see how those elements relate to one another and then on the right side would be the the multi-use path kind of wrapping around we talked about a ropes course there's a lot of interest in that you know we were thinking that it could be located in that open space kind of on the west side the northwest side of of the lake adjacent to the tiki hut the tiki hut could serve for for rentals for the ropes course along with rentals for small crafts associated with the beach entry signage both on the northeast side of the park and the main entry off color minute drive we think could and should be improved upon to really enhance that entry experience and people's first impression of the park as they're entering and from a wayfinding standpoint just to help people navigate and understand where they are all open air structure on the northwest sorry the northeast corner of the lake is a simpler structure but it provides another definition that could be used for the general public as well as rented out for both small and large events it's you know takes advantage of the views looking south and we think that there would be an opportunity maybe to have some sort of fireplace or fire pit that could be used and extend use of this amenity kind of through the the shoulder season spring and fall where temperatures get a little bit cooler this is a view of that council ring some more intimate experience a little bit off the beaten track there's a small a narrower four foot wide trail that kind of hugs the the top of the the eastern shoreline there but it's off of that ten foot wide trail so it offers a much more intimate experience and as you can see there there's there's currently quite a bit of vegetation kind of along that shoreline so that you know we we would intend for that to be preserved and and really contribute to the intimacy of that experience but you can see that from here you can you can have panoramic views looking back across the lake toward the the new beach house on the tiki hut and then this last image kind of just provides a more comprehensive aerial view of the proposed improvements so you know you can't really see the pigeon river on the left but you can you can see that kind of vegetative riparian corridor that wraps around there you see the the new the new beach house kind of in the lower left corner on the right side you see the new multi-purpose building you know the perched beach kind of on the south side of the lake and the tiki hut on the north side of the beach and then that's that multi-use path kind of wrapping around and looping around the the lake to kind of enclose the more active recreational zone of the park and then Kalima Drive is is right along here forming kind of that that bottom portion of of the view so everything that is proposed in this master plan is you know I just want to reiterate it's a result of not only our own internal analysis of the site which is something that we do for every project we're involved with but more importantly it's it's a reflection of what we heard from the community so not only the the Department of Public Works but the community as a whole like you know the stakeholder group workshop was imperative to understanding the the needs and the desires of park users and hopefully this master plan you know garners some enthusiasm moving forward with these proposed improvements when when funding becomes available and so you know the next steps in closing would be you know implementation and you know we I'll go back to this more interesting slide but you know we we there's the Department of Public Works has their comprehensive outdoor recreational plan that is up for renewal here shortly and and once this master plan is approved it will be adopted into the into the corp and then be eligible for federal state and local funding so you know we're hoping that this report can be used not only to generate enthusiasm but but also to to be used to to help encourage funding and partnerships in the future that really make some of the proposed improvements a reality so with that Joe I don't I don't know if you have anything else to add or Alex I don't know if you have anything else to add I kind of breezed through the report knowing that that it will be available to everyone after this meeting I just I didn't want to get bogged down in too many of the details you know there is over six months of work that was put into this document and I certainly didn't want to belabor the process too much but if I missed anything please feel free to to jump in and and say so thank you Joe just I guess for your information the committee was provided a copy of this report I think many of us tuned in to the October 1st presentation where the three different concepts were were shown which was a was a public hearing at that time and I guess as committee chair just just want to congratulate you to see this boiled down into this this forum is is is very good they the three different concepts were almost overwhelming so I think as far as a presentation to this committee in the format that you put together I really congratulate you it's it's it's very good but the committee has seen this report so with that I guess if anyone in the on the committee has any questions for Joe Porter or or Joe Curlan now would be the time to ask those questions questions or comments Peter Joe I also appreciate all the detail that you put together clearly it was a very thorough process with stakeholder involvement and community input I did have a question about the number of buildings right now this park has one building one physical building and your planner proposal has effectively for the multi-use park the beach house the tiki area and an additional shelter is your sense that all of those should be constructed at the same time or is this something that would be done on an incremental basis as usage of buildings would increase or or what was your idea of going from one single building to two four in terms of land use yeah thanks for that question absolutely the ladder it would be you know with any with any kind of large-scale master plan like this phased implementation is critical to it otherwise it's just way too overwhelming you know so you know I I suspect that you know once once this master plan is adopted you know the Department of Public Works is going to start looking into funding and partnership opportunities and to see you know if there's some some initial interest in any of the proposed improvements in conjunction with what they consider a priority just from a functional aspect you know so you know I I could see you know this multi-use building potentially you know being constructed well the existing core review center is used over the next several years and you know maybe you know replacing core review center I'm just thinking you know hypothetically speaking here as as how this could happen but you know you know the multi-use building you know potentially being constructed and core review center the existing core review center being used for the next several years until you know that resource has been completely exhausted right now it's it's it's quite dated but it still functions the way it it needs to you know the tiki the tiki bar building and in outbuilding that ancillary building you know I could see that being you know a you know a third or fourth priority not not one of the first priorities I could see the path you know this loop trail being a single project that's implemented on its own as funding becomes available so I think you know phasing these improvements is critical to the success of the project and I don't think it would be realistic to assume that the the entire plan could be constructed all at once so I I hope that that answers your question and and you know this this document should also be considered is is is a working document so you know the we understand that the the the only constant is changed these days and you know this the the needs and desires of the general public and the surrounding community you know they're going to evolve over time and so you know which is why the master plan can't get so detailed it needs to be flexible enough to accommodate for changes in the needs and desires throughout the years so you know there could be some slight modifications to to what's currently being proposed when funding becomes available which is another reason why when funding does become available that that more detailed design occurs to that and and that that detailed design should include kind of a reevaluation of the needs and desires and the program elements associated with any proposed improvement. Joe thank you very much for that answer it was very detailed and and it was very helpful a quick follow-up question to that since your firm did such a great job on going through the process of obtaining stakeholder input and community input do you think that you have the information that could be used for purposes of determining best phasing right now or is that something that would need to be done at a later stage by somebody else? Well I think that it really yeah so oftentimes with master plan we'll pull together an actual phasing diagram but when we spoke about that internally we thought that that might be a little bit too presumptuous because we then would be assigning a priority to something that might not necessarily attract funding so you know if you for instance you know if there's you know an entity, an individual or a business who's you know particularly excited about the annual news building and provide you know a significant donation to make that happen then you know you're not I would imagine you know Sheboyin is not going to say no no to that and so you know although programmatically you know that might not be a priority if funding is available I would imagine that that would become you know priority number one so I think it really comes down to you know future funding and partnership opportunities. And I understand Joe that was probably not a fair question to ask you but I'm just trying to get an idea of if phasing is necessary how we would go about doing that again I think it is you're probably right it is a little presumptuous even for our committee to be looking at phasing instead of the master plan I'm always thinking the next steps though thank you Joe. Sure thank you. Any other questions Dean? Yes Joe I just had one question I didn't see anything I know you you brought it up a little bit about barriers and things like that what kind of thoughts did you have on something that's a little more aesthetically pleasing than chain link fence around the but what would did you have any thoughts or any ideas as to what you what could be something that would make the area safe but still be a little more aesthetic. Yeah so that's a that's a really good question and I think it's the combination of hard scape and soft scape materials so around the beach you know we don't we want to maximize transparency into the site so you know the the beach if people are paying to use the beach we still want to allow you know people using this this loop trail to look inside and you know frame views of the lake and the beach and you know who knows maybe don't garner interest and then paying to use the beach after they run the loop so as far as any sort of physical barrier or hard scape barriers concern you know we were thinking and there are a couple a couple of the renderings do show that if I can go up a little bit but see here you can kind of see you know in this in this lower left image you know there's a knee wall condition with a transparent fence that might be six feet high for instance that still allows views into the beach and the lake without while still providing some physical deterrent now along other portions you know they're that that that barrier may exist as this enhanced natural shoreline where we're really you know I should have I should have mentioned this I failed to mention the fact and I'll go back to the to the master plan here but where we're expanding the waterfront experience along the southern shore you know the in order to maximize versatility in the use of that space from a from a visitor standpoint and activities associated with you know how the visitors want to use that space I we were we're also recommending that there be a kind of an enhanced vegetative buffer between the lawn area and the lake and not only will that help deter people from going where they shouldn't but it'll also help from a stormwater management standpoint to intercept and infiltrate any stormwater running off either the parking lot or the open lawn before it enters before it enters the lake so we think as far as physical barriers concerned it would be a combination of of built systems as well as natural vegetation Mr. Chairman this is Ed Freer could I also add a few sentences that is right oh yeah by Amit yes yeah so I'm part of the consultant team and I just I do want to leave you with some optimism and positive thought on the phasing and also partially in answer to the buildings during the interview for this project we were specifically asked if we had any experience and if we would be able to identify revenue generating opportunities for the park as we all know there's never enough money in our budgets and our capital improvement so that this master plan and the proposed structures is part of an answer to that that charge that we were given and so that any of these structures whether they be pieces of architecture with controlled environmental or they become structures that have open air opportunities pavilion shelters whatever we label them that become wonderful opportunities to make this park useful 12 months out of the year and to use them right now your big revenue generation is the operation of the beach so all of these structures could dramatically enhance that side of the financial in terms of the phasing and paying for these as well as any other improvements in the in the park yes we we can help you in that and we I want to say in my 40 some year career there's never enough money in the cookie jar and I want to say that most of the success and the implementation of projects that I've been involved in with a variety of public whether it's state or city or county levels have been a result of public and private partnerships you already have the JC name on the park so the service groups are a wonderful source of helping improve these things you also have a number of state and federal funds that could be applied towards the the vegetation and improvements could be demonstration areas using DNR money coastal management money fund for Lake Michigan money the trail system could be part of a federal grant access to the water's edge is there's a number of federal programs that offer handicapped access for recreation and fishing so I want to leave you with a positive bit of more than hope they exist it's hard work but we can help Joe and and his colleagues in the city maybe focus on some of these areas and prioritize and so in terms of the logical phasing you know historically we'd say okay we're going to put this road in we'll part part b we'll follow part a part c we'll follow part b so that aspect of phasing is no longer a traditional way of looking at a project but if a funding source becomes available that addresses one of these wishes you would certainly not say no to the money it's available and if you don't pursue it another community will so I think we can have a conversation at the end of this and maybe at least talk through a variety of strategies that might be a path to implementing some of it and might reinforce a stronger thread of how this might be implemented that's all I have to offer thank you do we have any more questions from the committee members if not we are looking for a recommendation actually a little stronger than a recommendation we'd be looking for a motion from this committee on what your pleasure is regarding this project and developing the master plan a recommendation excuse me motion would go to the department of public works so so is someone inclined to make a motion thank you mr chairman I'd like to make a motion to recommend the final consensus plan as presented by the consultant to the public works committee for adoption thank you do we have a second we have a second from Jerry thank you any additional discussion on the motion if not I will call the question all those in favor please indicate by saying aye aye opposed aye okay noted we have one opposed chair also votes aye the motion does carry I wasn't opposed actually I think it's my sound just came in late I'm sorry what was she's not opposed not okay it was a delay thank you it's unanimous okay motion is carried that is the only agenda item we we had today our next meeting is tentatively scheduled for February 2nd presumably at the department of public works conference room probably it's possible okay so watch your email I thank everyone for attending tonight and with that this meeting is adjourned