 really disrespectful to animals, to kill them to be and then not eat all the other bits like the organs and the bones. Where we differ is that I think it's disrespectful to kill them when it's needless anyway. I would argue that it isn't. I didn't think it was even January, last January. Yeah. I didn't think I did it really, I'm not a scientific guy, did it really really well, made all the dolls and tried to hit all the micronutrients and stuff like that, you know? Yeah. Tried to like, you know what I mean? And I fell ****. What were you doing wrong? I don't know. Do you eat enough fruit? Yeah, I felt like I always just felt undernourished. Not enough calories. Did you track your calories? No. Because you know what some people do when they go vegan? They start eating more plant food, like more whole food plants, so like more vegetables, less calorie dense, not nutrient dense. They're higher in nutrients, lower in calories. So you really got to switch, what do you do with the switch? You really got to think of, okay, what was I eating before? How can I mimic a similar amount of calories but vegan? So eating bread, eating pasta, eating peanut butter, eating like the calorie dense foods, but vegan. So what I'm saying is if I got, if I got to say like, if you get in like organic, grass-fed milk from like farms where the animals are treated like lovingly and like eggs from like very small family farms. Where, where are these places? It's not a single car live. They do about 30 orders a week and I get an order of like, I don't, that's not usual, you know what I mean? Like I don't think most people, most people think they get, well, most people get a free range place, for example, could have the best marketing in the world and they slaughter all their animals, they torture all their animals. Free range eggs are horrible, disgusting hell holes. Yeah, no, they only have to let them out for an hour a day or something like that. Yeah, it doesn't matter. I've been to free range, I've seen free range places where they let them out, but what happens is because they're laying egg after egg each day, their body just sucks all the nutrients and they end up dying, suffering and dying in, in the sheds. But like, look, this, this place where you get your dairy from, guaranteed they slaughter those cows, they have to. Oh no, I'll get meat from that as well. Okay, so how is that okay? Like, I just wonder where we're lying. How is killing an animal for something needless, like eating their body okay, like in your opinion? Because if we can't, I don't, from where I felt from when I didn't eat meat and it felt like I wasn't healthy, I felt like it, it's not possible to thrive maybe just, it's just a group, we just. So it's a health thing? Maybe we find this so shocking. In fact, the world's so sanitized that you know what I mean, sort of like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously, I don't think the only reason it's even vaguely possible to like, not eat meat is because we live in a world where all the food can do all the billion air miles and you're getting all things. And also I worry about monocrop agriculture, where you know, we're growing the same crops over and over again, which if you're not going to feed 7 billion people doing this. Where did the monocrops go? Do you think people just eat monocrops? Well, a large amount of protein, for example, if you're going to have a protein not from. I'm just wondering, who do you think is the biggest culprit for consuming monocrops? Do you think it's human beings? It's partially good, about 40% goes to animals, I think? I think it's 40% goes to, well, 40% of soy is going to go to chickens and cows. No, well, 77% of soy goes to animals, the world's soy, yeah. And then 83% of the world's farmland is used for animal agriculture, 83%. It's not horrible, isn't it? Sorry? You're not a land that you can grow grass on it and you can farm cows on it, but you can't. I'm saying 83% of that land is either used for cows to be grazed on or for crops to be grown for animals. And if we all went vegan, you could reduce that farmland by 75%. And this was a study come out of Oxford University by Joseph Paul, really landmark study. And it looked at about, I think it was 40,000 farms in over 100 countries. And this is what they come to that the single biggest thing you could do to help the environment is to be vegan. This brings me back to my original point about health though. It's like, well, then possibly, right? Yeah. Even then, I mean, I've got my mom's, a couple of mom's friends are vegan, and they've taken it quite seriously for being healthy. And I know that like the risk of like hip fractures and osteoporosis, if people have been vegan for a long, long time. I know that that study on higher risk of fractures has been thoroughly debunked. This is not a good study. And the reason it's not a good study is because it has no statistical transparency. They do not give the details either in the paper or in the supplement about how they did it. And when you actually look at based on what they say, for the BMI, they are using stratification, which is not appropriate for a continuous variable that has a nonlinear risk. And based on the population skew, we have every reason to believe there's a residual confounding. And the same thing is true for calcium, two of the, at least five biggest potential confounders. You did a terrible job adjusting for it. It was inappropriate adjustment methods. One of the five vitamin D wasn't adjusted for it all. I have no idea why this is being paraded. The study is being paraded around. It's just, it's just weird. For anyone who understands how research is done, why anyone would bring this to the table. It's just baffling. Like if you looked at the totality of evidence for plant-based diets, whole food plant-based diets, it's leaning towards being healthier for us. So heart disease is the number one killer of people. And there's no cholesterol in animal, in a vegan food. Yeah, it's funny, I've really learned up on this. I wonder why I felt so bad. I think you did something wrong. I think supposedly cholesterol is actually really good for you. The problem is we live in a world where you produce your own. But when you have dietary cholesterol, you talk to any heart surgeon. They'll tell you that it builds up in your arteries, saturated fat especially, and cholesterol builds up in your arteries. Only if it's oxidized though. If the low density cholesterol, the L, the L, the bad one, is oxidized by that lifestyle factor. And how does it oxidize? Inflammation? Yeah, yeah. And what causes inflammation? Glucose spikes are the biggest one, I think. Lack of exercise, smoking, alcohol. So let's just say what you're saying is true. Do you think you can be healthy as a vegan? You don't believe you can? Lewis Hamilton is a vegan. I don't rule it out, but I think it requires such an enormous level of, I think you'd like, and it's only possible if because we live in a globalized capitalist system, I'm not sure it would have been possible in our kind of... So you don't think it's possible for you to be healthy as a vegan right now in the UK? No. Okay. I don't think so. That's interesting. And what if you change your mind on that? Because I can't persuade you otherwise. Because I can tell you I've been vegan for eight years. I've run a 100K marathon. I can tell you all these things. I can tell you I'm healthier than I've ever been. I can tell you I used to be obese as a meat eater and feel like crap. I can tell you, I can tell you all these anecdotes, but nothing I say right here is going to change your mind on it. But... If I thought I could thrive, not on it, if I... Why do you have to thrive? Are you thriving now? You're a lot better, I think. But are you thriving now? More than I was. Now, I just want to know, in your subjectivity, are you thriving? I am as far as my diet goes. So you think you feel like you're thriving on your diet? Yeah, I feel healthier, I feel more alive. I don't know, I feel a different... And I don't know if that's just because I... So if you could get to a similar place right now on a vegan diet, you would think that that animal abuse was unjustified. But because you can't... And I try not to eat this. I try not to do this. And I feel like it's also like... I try to eat as well. I try to eat nocetails. So I feel like it's really disrespectful to animals. It's basically to kill them to be... And then not eat all the other bits, like the organs and the bones and stuff like that. So try and eat bone marrow, try and have one. So I think where we differ is that... I think it's disrespectful to kill them when it's needless anyway. But I would argue that it is a brutal reality of nature, you know. We're not... It's only because it's so detached from nature that we can... Yeah, but it's a reality of... I mean, murder is a reality of human society as well. I mean, it doesn't mean we should participate in it. Just because it's something that's a reality of nature or happens in nature doesn't mean we should mimic that or not try to be better and civilized. I just wonder whether if it causes harm to my health. I mean, I don't think you're very... Like, to be honest, you and I both probably haven't... Not really into the breadth of the science, but there are a lot of really intelligent plant-based doctors who do look at the totality of it. Because you could look at one study, right? But when you look at scientific data, you have to look at the totality of evidence and see where it's leaning towards. You can't just go, oh, that one says vegan's got osteoporosis, or that one says meat eaters, hair's going to fall out. You have to look at the breadth of the science, and that's how people analyze things. But do you guys want to take some? Why haven't you? He's scared, he's running away. No, he thinks that man needs meat. Men need meat. Really? Do you want to take one of these? Yeah, we'll let him try. Thank you. Hi. Hello, how are you? We have my sister a vegan because of you. Oh, really? Yeah. Where is she? Balas. Balas. Hello. Hi. Oh, hey. Hey. I'm the boyfriend who's vegan too. Oh, you're a vegan live stream chat. What's up? Who's been vegan for five years now? Five years, epic. That's good. Do you want to take one of these, brother? Try this, yeah. Go on. Have a crack. I'll give it another go. And let me give you some info as well. I'll take some. Some bumpies don't contain this, and there's others, right? You know, they're not. They do follow through with it. Look, Dr. Michael Gregory is one of them, isn't he? I mean, I don't believe that you only eat meat from that farm. I think you probably do, but I think you also eat meat and dairy everywhere else, because, I mean... When I can't get it from that farm, I do, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, because... And they don't like it. They don't like it. That's why I try and like... But I do just... So, you're against animal cruelty, and a lot of the times when people don't want to give up animals, they start trying to find all these reasons why they sh... You know, because it's something deeper. It's something about the habit, something about the taste, and something else they're letting go of. Do you think it is sort of... Yeah, I think it is something deeper. I think it's sort of an incredible draw to it. I was looking for reasons not to eat animals when I was seeing that. I was like, is there... I was looking for protein... Can I get protein from plants? I was like, can I get this? Can I get that? Can we get maximally bi-available protein? You don't need it. You don't need it. You don't need it. You only need a certain... Once you get over a certain threshold of protein, you have enough for your body to sustain. What? I mean, is that necessary? You can get 100, 200 calories... 200 grams of protein, easy. I don't think you need more than 150, to be honest. 180, if you want 180, you're a big boy, actually. One and a half times the size of me. So you probably need 180. You can get that easy on a vegan diet. Can you? Check out this guy, Hench Herbivore. I've only had my supplements and the proteins in this. Don't get me wrong, I'm an open-minded person. There's 24 grams in a quart of that. Yeah, so one of those is 100 grams. But then it's that complete bone amino acid profile with leucine, you know, like... Yeah, but if you have a variety of food, once you get over a certain threshold of protein, you'll get all your amino acids. Check out this guy, his name's Hench Herbivore. Look him up on YouTube. Hench Herbivore. Hench Herbivore. He's a big... The swastika face, that guy. Neema Delgado from Game Changers. I know the guy called... I know the common game changer thing about this, the conflict of interest. All the people who made that, they were all selling plant-based products. You know, which is the profit. And I think the problem is the profit margin's way higher. The overhead's a way lower. If you look at these studies, right, look at who they're funded by. Dairy industry. Meat industry. And who's got more money? Meat, dairy and eggs. Everyone eats it. Everyone is like... Oh, well, no, but not everyone is a customer of pharmaceutical industry. Kids are customers of the meat industry. Kids, parents, grandparents. Everyone eats meat and dairy. Even people who ride bicycles and don't use oil still eat meat, dairy and eggs. One of the biggest industries on earth. It's tentacles stretched through governments and health system and science and everywhere. Like if this is... This is the beast. They're torturing the animals. We're asking people to stop and do something that's better, more sustainable, because they're growing... They're growing number one. It's definitely put me off buying meat from shit places. You know, like Matthew and stuff like that. You haven't even seen the slaughterhouse that your animals go to. They invited me. Really? Go in there. Go pet the cow, look him in the eyes and then watch him get slaughtered and ask if it... Is it justified? Do you wonder whether, like, in the kind of free and starving time, you know what I mean? It would have just been part of the natural cycle, don't it? You know what I mean? Like... We don't need to do it. It's just the kind of... There are no vegan hunter-gatherers. You tell me, like, we didn't evolve to eat this way. Just because we did something back then for our civilization to thrive, doesn't mean we should continue doing it. Or we need to continue doing it. If we evolved, you know, let's say human beings have been anatomically modern humans for the last, say, 250,000 years, or we've been eating meat for about 2 million years since Homo erectus, why, about 2 million years, and we've evolved specifically, then I just don't know whether we can just change it all in 50 years and eat something we've made in a factory. Well, you just need to know about... This isn't whole food, is it? This is a... The meat's been made in a factory too, generally, but... And the animals are all... The animals you're eating are not natural animals. They are in the organic grass-fed farm. They're not. They're 100% not. They're selectively bred. They're bred. Those breeds, those dairy cows, they're whole-steamed cattle, they don't exist in nature. What, producing all that milk? All the animals you eat are all selectively bred unnatural animals, human-created animals. Chickens freak me out, I definitely think they do. They only live like 12 weeks, and they go so big a night. Everything that's in meat, you can get from plants, except for B12, and you can supplement it. I think I have an open mind. You're a very smart person. You can think things through. Sure. Definitely, this puts me off... It puts me off even more than it already was at factory farming, because that is great. And that's where most of the meat's coming from here? I know. I know. And then the other places, if they want to invite me to their slaughterhouse with a camera, I'd be happy to come. Your magical farm, that only supplies 30 packages a day or a week or something? 30 a week. 30 a week, yeah. Probably like sort of, yeah. They represent a minority. Yeah, no, no, no. But I feel like you vote with your wallet. You vote with your wallet. That's why you can vote vegan every day, no matter what. I'll consider it. I'll continue to vote. Bless you, mate.