 Distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for inviting me to moderate this very interesting session. I'd like to invite our panellists to come up and join the stage here. We have been asked to shorten the session, but we do want to work quickly through it so that we can have an opportunity for some questions at the end. Let's cross our fingers that we can get there. So initially, I'd like to invite our guests. Please, Pakhari Daryanto is the Secretary General of the Ministry of Forestry of Indonesia. Thank you Pakhari Daryanto. Mr. Shinta Kamandani, who is the President of the Indonesian Business Council for Sustainable Development, but also the Vice-Chair of the Indonesia Chamber of Commerce and Industry, Kadin. Ola Elvestun, the Head of Parliamentary Committee for Energy and Environment of Norway. Mr. Djoko Supriano, the Director of Astra Agro Lestari. And last but not least, Crystal Davis, who is a Senior Manager for Global Forest Watch of the World Resources Institute. Please welcome our guests to the stage. So just to get us started, a big theme of the Forest Asia Summit is the landscape approach, and we're going to focus on that. And it's very interesting for me. There's many people and stakeholders in the landscapes, and so it's beholden on us to be able to collaborate with each other. And that is the important topic of our session here today. And for me, it's important to understand that if we're going to solve the problems that exist in these various landscapes across the world, but particularly here in Southeast Asia, we need to be able to work together. And for that, we have to be able to collaborate with each other. And this is not easy or straightforward given some of the history of conflict that exists between people when it comes to questions of land. We have a long history, I think, of conflict between communities and companies with NGOs and also with governments. Yet getting over this past, this past history, is going to be fundamental for us moving forward. And I think in the recent few years, we've seen some absolutely terrific examples of this, particularly here in Indonesia. We've seen Golden Agri Resources, the palm oil company, working closely with communities, NGOs, and the government of Indonesia. We've seen recently Asia Pop and Paper doing likewise a long history of conflict with NGOs and communities, making new policy commitments to work with the stakeholders in their business. We've recently seen Willmar. And most excitingly, just last week, APP itself made a new announcement to go and talk about restoring a million hectares and conserving a million hectares of land through a multi-stakeholder approach. So indeed, I would say that this whole no deforestation push is something that started here in Indonesia. And given that Indonesia has long been a country when you come to these meetings, people talk about climate change. The next thing they say is Indonesia. And the next thing they say is deforestation. I think this is absolutely terrific and exciting that Indonesia is a place where this strong push for no deforestation is coming. And I think that Indonesia can be very proud of that. And it's a very positive aspect that Brand Indonesia is progressively delinking itself from this whole question of deforestation. And yet, the future is not yet secured for our forests here in Indonesia or elsewhere. And there's much more to do before we can truly say that we've solved the problem of deforestation in the landscape. And key to this will be the collaboration between multiple stakeholders. And this session has been designed by the organisers to start drawing on the experience of our very knowledgeable and experienced panel to share some of their experiences through their work on how they've resolved complex situations, complex challenges by working with multiple stakeholders. So we're going to get down to the nitty-gritty of the discussion. And for me, first I'm going to ask each panelist to start sharing their own experience. But central questions that I hope we can address during the panel is the challenges that they've each faced in their work with multiple stakeholders. What are the challenges they experienced to bring multiple stakeholders together? It's not always easy or straightforward, as I said, when there's a long history of conflict. But also I'd ask them to draw on what do they think the opportunities or what are the best collaborative approaches that they've seen or they've been involved in themselves to resolve these sustainability challenges. So these are the two questions we hope to draw out in the discussion. I'll come and join my panelist over here. Hopefully my microphone is working. And I'd like to invite Hari Daryanto first, please, to share with us your experiences, Hari, of a collaborative approach that you've had experience with. Thank you, Pak Scott. If we are talking about multi-stakeholder processes in Indonesia, we have many experiences. Amongst others is about when we are setting a timber licensure system. It is really a time to discuss. But I would like to share here how we finally have some legality timber standard in Indonesia through multi-stakeholder processes. First, it began the dialogue on 2003, which the stakeholder government has demanded. If we have a round table like this, and in front of the government is the businessman, who has the, who to operate the mandate from legal, what you have. In the other set, we have the North country and in other, in my left hand, as we can, civil society in Indonesia. The role of the, the principle of the dialogue is a partnership, a word of partnership in 2003 is very famous, with three principles that mutual, first is mutual recognition, mutual respect, and mutual benefit. And the stakeholder processes or the actor, I would like to say, have not been an individual, but as representative of institution. Why? Because if individual come in the dialogue, we cannot have some warranty with their talking. And the first dialogue, I would make separately with the government's institution, local people, business people. Why? If we make in the same room, they will blame each other. So for example, in the, in the department, in the government institutional, they will talking about, for example, people from ministry of agriculture, forestry, mining, home, where they will talking about their system, their law, their regulation. It is not enough one or three times discussion. And for the businessman, I'm not bringing them in the room of officer, but I bring those people in the restaurant. Why? Because if they are talking in the restaurant, they will say about anything positive or negative. They will blame the government people or the, but it is really, they can say what they do as business. And for the local people, I ask a local NGO with their mother language. And finally, if they already agree amongst the stake, then we bring in the same room, same room and discuss. In terms of legality timber with the flagty criteria, we have to this, to define the legality definition. And then it is also not easy. And then about the institutional who will give the licensee and the independence institutional will evaluate and agglutination. Then a dialogue in the big room, I just use three criteria. First criteria, everybody come in the room for discussion has their competency. Even they're just a government official or local, but they have their competency. Second rule, they can do wrong. For what? If they say anything, is there a wrong or right? So to say we need, you can do wrong. But the third principle, if we are agree, even it is ridiculous, we have to agree. And they said to be agree. If they're not agree, make a dissenting opinion. And finally, we have what we call Indonesian language as standard, legality, or timber legality assurance system. It is a long discussion, but finally it is very appreciated by Donald's country. It is very important for us finally about the key success of this multi-stakeholder dialogue is surlending from us, the government, we don't know about what is legality, what is the capacity. Also from the point of view of democracy, the civil society now can as a part of, I would like to say, the third power of policy development. And it is happened in Indonesia with young democracy, but finally when we are talking, when we are negotiate with EU, they recognize our result. And thank you. Thanks for having me. Shinta, could you share us some of your interesting experience? I'm sure you have many of complex situations. Yes, first of all, thank you for this opportunity. I would like to give my highest appreciation to Saifor for organizing this. I think I would like to perhaps share two examples, specific example. First is, I think in the private sector element, I have to say that collaboration plays a very important role. When we talk about sustainability in the private sector, the gap is also quite significant. So one of the first important part is how we can put private sector as one voice. When we say one voice is how we can put together all the different elements of the private sectors from the big companies to the medium to the small companies into one set. And I think that is perhaps one of the hardest challenges before we go outside to the different stakeholders. Interests are different and I think this is one element that needs to be paid strong attention in how we can listen to all the needs and interests of the different parties. Of course, the second stakeholder that's important for us is the government. And from the early days, I think our staff to mobilize the private sectors on the issue on sustainability, one area to identify is which elements of the government that we need to work with. And we start from the big picture of working with Bapenas, for example, because we want this issue to be included in the master plan of the government. So we now have collaborate and work with Bapenas in terms of putting in how the green economy is being put in the government roadmap. And I think this is a very big first step before we go into all the detail elements is how the green economy how Indonesia see as a green economy. And I think even that discussion itself comes from different perspective. And right now when we talk about green economy in Indonesia, it's more of Indonesia wants to be greener, but how do we want to implement, how do we want to become a green economy? I think that's the big question. So putting it I think in the government master plan is very, very important. So I think that's the first collaboration that we do it with on a bigger picture. Now I would like to to share a little bit what we did from the last Forest Summit to this Forest Summit. Last year when for the first time the Indonesian Chamber of Commerce and Industry was involved in the Forest Summit organized beside for, we realized they have to be specific target or objective that we'd like to do as far as talking about sustainable forestry. And I think one area that we want to facilitate of course is the low carbon use of option and red plus. And I think red plus has been a new paradigm that start being pushed obviously as a program by the government. And I'm happy to say that at the moment the government have already its own agency on red plus and that really helps significantly. But what we did is since last year when we want to commit ourselves to put red plus as one of our priority project program in the private sector in Kadin, we realized that we need to then involve the multiple stakeholders in all this discussion and dialogue and what what is basically our role in terms of putting this in the right perspective. We find that there's a lot of lacking of existing models, few resources on social conflicts, barriers on HVHSS management. We have oversight in licensing, in efficiency and many many challenges that we face in terms of trying to put this forward. One of the biggest challenge obviously the financing of red plus. So when we now bring in private sectors into doing more red plus project, we realize that we they cannot scale up. There's no financing available in order for them to be able to do that. So watching of identifying some of these challenges and opportunity, we realize that as Kadin, we need to play a bigger role in doing specific actions of facilitating and we then bring the three elements of government obviously business and civil society to the picture and we have been organizing a series of dialogue interviews as a verification on some of the issues that is faced on the site. Now what we come up with is we ask ourselves how can we add value on this specific issue. So we have come up with four areas at the moment as a result of this collaboration. One is establishing the social conflict resource unit at Kadin. We feel that we as an independent body may be able to play a bigger role in resolving some of the social conflict. The second is the facilitating some of the land swap because this is also a big issue. One of the area that's important is facilitating the one map development and this is something that we're working at the moment with the red plus agency because we believe without one map it's very difficult for all the actors to play. The fourth is facilitating the best management practices for all palm smallholders. We have to start paying attention to the smallholders. I mean I think the big companies have the support and facilities but not enough resources for the smallholders. So this is the four areas that we are collaborating. Kadin is leading in facilitating and how this now that this can be implemented and executed. Thank you Shinta. Ola could you share with us your experience of a complex process you guys have worked through with multi-stakeholders. Well me being here from the parliament of Norway first of all it shows that combating climate change is something that demands through cooperation between all countries in the world and I would like to thank the special minister from Peru and so in giving some optimism and confidence into the cop process which is something I really think the world needs is more confidence and optimism when it comes to how we can deal with and combat climate change and of course preserving forest is one major part in that in that work that we need to do. As a member of the Norwegian parliament I think for us first of all we have to make a broad agreement at home for us to be supporters of the red plus process. We just last year had an election we had a we had a change in the majority in the country but the commitments commitment is still the same. When it comes to the cooperation that we have with Indonesia of course this is a it is Indonesia this has to be the most important partner. We can only be a supportive partner in the work that Indonesia or other countries for that matter do. So it's got to be a cooperation government to government and I would imagine that in Indonesia as in Norway it is a challenge to make the different parts of the government work together. I say minister of environment you have to deal with the minister of finance you have to deal with all the other parts within a government structure and it's important that you have one goal and you have the whole the different parts work together this takes time and as the parliamentarian I will also emphasize the importance not only to deal with with the government but also include all elected officials in the process also the parliament I would imagine that is also something that is important also here in Indonesia apart from that working together it is not only important to be on the national level we have to deal with the regional level and also the local political level so that we all can work together and of course as was emphasized we have to we have to bring in the business community I mean you have to in when we manage the forest I think it was a good idea with forest development goals I think that is something that is necessary to work with in the future so that you can have something in common in different countries that we can work with but of course when we if this is not about just this is not about preserving forest what it is about is to have development at the same time as we manage and preserve the forest so of course to create incentives for industry to be a partner in that process is what is really really important and for Norway's part what we can be a partner in we have to work with the incentives but you need to work with you need research we need to develop together the legal framework so that you get to write incentives for the business community so that you get the right incentive for the local communities to preserve and have an interesting in preserving the forest so I think this isn't it's a huge undertaking it's a huge task that the world in common has and you need all the stakeholders from the local community all the way up to the national international level to work together to make this happen and I think it's most important it's only to have a understanding that yes it's a it's a largely how to do but it's definitely possible it can be done if we work together and the alternative is not acceptable this is something that we have to make all together excellent thanks very much okay so Pak Djokov your experience is a private sector company here in Indonesia what's your experience with working with NGOs communities governments to take your business operations forward yes thank you Mr. Paenton and also I would like to thanks to CFO for inviting us to join in the panel discussion yes talking about the palm oil is palm oil is everything for Indonesia I think Indonesia is a biggest producer also exporter of the palm oil and this valued around the 20 billion dollar US per year it is the biggest non-oil export earning for Indonesia it's very very significant and also don't forget this Indonesian palm oil is also about 4.5 million family working and also be a farmer of the oil plantation so this industry is has a significant role for Indonesian economy talking about the the climate change I think for palm oil industry what we're concerned is how palm oil industry to the sustainable practices I think that is the only way how the palm oil is participate or contribute to the climate change mitigation and adaptation as a biggest producer of the palm oil Indonesia I think is now we are on the way we are on the way to to achieve to reach the sustainability practices why because since two years ago I think it's a government issued the regulation it is the minister degree agricultural minister degree call it Indonesian sustainable palm oil it is regulation which is mandatory for the oil palm company that should be implemented in the in the 2014 meaning it is the the the deadline of this implementation of the Indonesian sustainable palm oil is this year why we should support the government regulation with regard with regard the Indonesian sustainable palm oil or ispo because ispo is basically an umbrella of the many regulation with regard the sustainable practices the the issue that the many time accused to the palm oil development is deforestation you know deforestation in Indonesia we have law of first rate which is regulate the land which is can be used for the palm oil and which land cannot be used for the palm oil and the since three years ago also Indonesian government imposed the regulation with regard the postponement of the new permission of the palm oil development in primary forest and also in pit land with two regulation and then in the in the implementing of the ispo indonesia i think is in particular palm oil industry is moving forward to to how to to achieve the sustainable practices because with this the two two important to important regulation now palm oil industry is concerned also how to we develop our palm oil in the in the we call it in the in the marginal land on the degraded land and also how we avoid the pit soil in the new development so this i think is a good move and again we are moving forward to to achieve the implementation of the sustainability with regard the ispo and ispo i think ispo is a government initiative we have to support it is the ispo also provide a collaborative approach collaborative you know cooperation between some parties because in ispo many parties can join can give the you know proposal or give the feedback and something so let's go forward with the ispo implementation in indonesia with this regulation i think we will we will achieve the palm oil sustainable development and thank you all right thanks very much okay crystal some are you working there i i think you are yeah good um some experiences that you guys have worked with through i mean you bring a different perspective from you know from a no i guess global forest watch world resources institutes of ngo what what perspective can you guys bring into this situation of working with businesses working with governments to try and solve complex problems sure um before i jump into my specific experiences i actually want to share some of my thoughts about why multi-stakeholder collaborative approaches are so critical for resolving sustainability challenges at a landscape level we've heard a lot yesterday and also in the speeches this morning that when you try to bring together social environmental and economic objectives at a landscape level you often create trade-offs and conflict and trying to find a single optimal land use solution if not entirely unrealistic is at least a very difficult starting point for decision makers so in the face of trade-offs in the face of conflict i would actually argue that the quality of the decision-making process becomes just as important as the actual decision itself but at the same time we've all learned that a good multi-stakeholder process one that is inclusive that's fairly negotiated that's iterative and adaptive that's based off of transparent and equal access information is something that requires a lot of patience there are no shortcuts not at least that i've been able to identify so i think it's very important for us to recognize this and commit to being willing to invest the time and the resources that a good process requires and everything that we do and now to speak a little bit to specific examples from my experience on global forest watch for those of you who aren't familiar with global forest watch it's a new near real-time forest monitoring and deforestation alert system that was itself a product of a multi-stakeholder effort the world resources institute has built global forest watch with the help of over 40 partners from and collaborators from the private sector from civil society from government who have brought together the cutting-edge technology science and data that make it possible for the first time ever to be able to provide frequently updated and transparent information about where deforestation is happening literally all around the world and but simply providing data is not our end objective we see open data as a very important means to empowering and building trust between different stakeholders and to provide another example around that point in particular when we launched global forest watch in February of this year including a new global tree cover loss data set that was developed by one of our partners the University of Maryland there was initially some confusion and even some criticism here in Indonesia about why our numbers weren't necessarily matching up with the official statistics on deforestation here in Indonesia and I would actually like to frame the situation as an opportunity rather than just a problem when different stakeholders tend to come to the table with different values in terms of what the best scientific approach is and how you define terms like forest and deforestation but I actually think that there is a lot that can be learned through a very transparent process to compare different data sets and their underlying methodologies to have an open dialogue about what you agree about and disagree about what those data sets are telling you and then ultimately figuring out what these data sets are telling us about how forest landscapes in Indonesia needs to be managed and in fact I think this is the same type of process that has underlined the one map initiative here in Indonesia which is why I think it's been such a successful effort so far so just just to conclude I think the main point I'm trying to make here today is that in the context of a landscape approach I think it's just important to focus on the process as well as the outcomes and in particular this process of trying to reconcile conflict can be an especially valuable one but only when it is truly open and transparent and involving multiple stakeholders Excellent thanks very much well I'm mindful of the time and we are really required to wrap those up in about the next 15 minutes I think given the session was a little bit shortened so what I'm going to do is just sort of go through some of the key points that the speakers have made we asked initially when we started to talk about challenges and opportunities and then to think about what the best approaches could be and I think all of the speakers have touched on those points as they've gone through their presentations so I'm going to just quickly go through some of those and then we'll open it up to the floor for some questions so if everyone's got the microphones ready we'll get some questions in a second right starting through the discussions we heard this talk about mutual respect and mutual benefit I think that came out very early and I think one of the other interesting points that came out this is about the best approaches I think was a safe environment providing people with a safe environment in which to speak Hadi spoke about taking the businesses to the restaurant I think that's a great idea give people a place to where they feel comfortable to speak and I think that's very true and making sure that everyone in the room is competent and able to speak and lead and I think that were these are great points and I always say one of my I do a lot of sort of discussion between conflicting parties myself and I always say it's amazing what you can achieve when you sit people down together and people come together and actually have a chat it's amazing what you can achieve and I think Hadi made the point that he said when we talk together we can achieve many things and I think that's very true since I started talking about the importance of being aligned getting people aligned making sure that the small mediums as the large businesses are all aligned and what you've got to say and I can understand very important when you're going into a dialogue that everyone's and going in the same direction and I think that's right the other point was who to speak to who should you have a dialogue with which person and which government department you know you could spend some time talking to the wrong people and going up the wrong alley and I think that was also an interesting point setting targets setting targets was important and the concept of a facilitating role we've seen at many times that people sometimes get together and end up fighting each other even more and actually having someone in the room who can facilitate the discussion can actually help it move forward certainly what we've seen in our work at the Forest Trust being inclusive Ola spoke about a supportive role and I think that comes into this facilitation part being inclusive trying to get everyone together the different levels the local regional national level trying to bring in all of the communities I think you talked a lot about the need to be inclusive and that came through a lot of your discussions and I like the idea of the research and thinking through the frameworks to bring people together I like that and ultimately you said be positive and I like that too you can't go into these things expecting it to fail you may not think go in expecting to reach your ultimate goal in five steps either but I think being positive is absolutely critical so these are great points I think Puck Jocode focused on the process with the ISPO and how that has developed and how this gives us a framework under which people can work together to achieve sustainability for the palm oil industry with the government in particular a government led process which is quite interesting but with businesses following that and adhering to a process set up by the government but with stakeholder consultation involved in it so that was interesting too and we're all watching to see how the ISPO unfolds and Crystal helped us finish off I think which with I think there's a very also a key point is the decision making process the quality of the decision making process and the quality of the conflict resolution process giving people the opportunity and having the time and resources the patience to let it unfold is absolutely critical and a key point you mentioned Crystal I think is trust trust transparency and open dialogue this also came out through all of the discussions and I underlined here process and outcomes being as important as each other I think the speakers have given us some great insight into their own experiences and if we had longer we could really go into some real details about their specific processes but for me those were the key points and so what I'd like to do now is open up to the floor for some questions to the panel please feel free to ask anyone a question but I would ask if you can to really try and draw out some of these opportunities of these multi-stakeholder processes of bringing people together have we got any questions from the floor yes please get a microphone there here it comes thank you my name is Zainuddin from Separa I am the Vice President of the Small Scale Furniture Producers and this is the first time for me to join in the Forest Summit Asia and thanks for C4 inviting us to be part of the Forest Asia discussion so from the presentation from the speaker I say about certification and facilitation for the smallholder so we are the smallholder now and I have a big question about what is the benefit for the smallholder if we are implementing the SVLK or care aware about the forest forestry because you know that our position now at Separa it's a smallholder maybe I have a question to myself what food we eat for tomorrow but maybe you here you have a question what type what kind of food you will eat for tomorrow because we have a problem even we have implemented now we as the Small Scale Furniture Producers we have certified but it's thankful for the ministry because we have funds so we can have a certified SVLK but the most important thing is we must do the action no we have action we do action to implement to access the certified product but what is your action we are waiting your action to buy our certified so you contribute to the conservation of the forestry and you know that it will be a special treatment to Separa people because Separa consumes around 1 million meter cube of wood and it's the many people maybe around 5 million people it depends on the wooden industry so I think I bid your action to buy the certified product thank you thanks so perhaps I think the key question there for me in terms of the session is what benefits do people get from being involved it's a question for smallholders I'm sure not just in the wood industry but in the palm oil industry as well so we've got little time but just rather than giving us the benefits of SVLK perhaps Pak Hari and then Pak Djoko can just share with us your thoughts about what is the benefit from being involved in a multi-stakeholder process just concisely yes it's a good question the benefit is the smallholder financial have the access market to the EU and also an incentive that no local people in Java especially they plant the trees and the government not do any intervene now no needs the letter of legality if they come from the plantation in their homeland as you saw now in Indonesia especially in Java the forest is increased phantastic then it is what we know of course the question how about the market it is a good question to the european countries please buy it but of course we know know in the recession economy to do so we do together with some of friends of let's say EU and UK now profits some with the state budget profits some budget for facility or certified of the small to have this certification it is the answer so I think what you're saying is just setting up the SVLK setting up the certification is maybe not the final result you've got to go further and talk to more stakeholders talk to the EU bring those guys involved so these processes never end I think is perhaps what the conclusion is you've got to keep working on making these processes work that there's never any end goal in the whole process you've got to keep talking but Joker we'll just pause for a second because I'm mindful that we've got about five minutes have we got another question that we can bring from the floor particularly about the process of working through difficult situations there's one way up the back there there you go yes thank you my name is Susana Kroger from Greenpeace and I have a question for the gentleman from Astro Agolistari in your answer about collaborative approaches you expanded on ISPO well that's a system to meet legal compliance so my question to you is how do you perceive the other initiatives from other key palm oil producers who are engaging in collaborative approaches with NGOs and other stakeholders to implement and meet no deforestation commitments yes again ISPO is a government initiative but in the development of the ISPO all parties are involved it is government itself and then private company smallholder and also NGO but I'm not sure which NGO that is involved or include in the process this kind of process is basically continuing and again the process of the ISPO development is now is just in the first step you know we basically the other target is to develop in the entire of the palm oil supply chain but unfortunately currently is just the first step which the principle and criteria is applied for the company we are now developing for the criteria for the smallholder this kind of the principle criteria in ISPO as I mentioned before that is all regulation in Indonesia because the ISPO is basically regulation base so all the regulation applied in Indonesia now we put in the ISPO together like just also just I said before that is like moratorium regulation is also one of the reference of the ISPO criteria so with this criteria meaning that this palm oil company cannot get the new permit in the land which is in the form of the primary forest you never got the permission from the primary forest also you never got the permit from the pit soil so the important thing is how the law enforcement are how to strengthening the implementation of ISPO and it's also the law enforcement of the implementation of ISPO because with the strong implementation including of course the law enforcement is I think is the violation of the legal principle in particular we got the deforestation and also pit is I think can be done through strong implementation so initiative yes but I think the most important thing is how we support and strong implementation is needed for our partners wonderful I think we've got time for one quick question and let's not make it about ISPO has anyone got another question there about the process there's one down the front there thank you just down the front here please for a microphone here it comes yep here here down the front yes oh thank you we have to be quick everyone's waiting for a cup of coffee thank you the Sushitraja and the Kunfa Department of National Park and Raleigh Conservation Thailand as I heard from the Minister of the Peru and the Minister of Norway mentioned about forest dropment goal is very innovative idea I would like to know what your perspective from the Minister of Norway how the key process to achieve this goal and do you think how how long it takes you are expected thank you thank you you've got two seconds let's say the forest development goals I think it's a it's a good idea and I think it's from as the minister from Peru said it I think it's when you we need to energize the cop process there's been so many negative views and negative news when it comes to the achievements have been made but when you now go to Peru and we get back into in Paris we need to get that final national international agreement whether it is strong enough or not you need a national international agreement and I think forestry has to be one central part of this and as we work with the sustainable development goals as you have the millennial the thousand year goals and millennial goals they have had an impact sustainable development goals will also be able to have an income impact I think it's right that will work from the bottom up more than you just have to we cannot expect that one major international agreement is enough everyone has to do their part you have to work from the bottom up and if you have some common criteria is also within forestry that is something that will help also with the collaboration and the cooperation countries in between and also that we talk about the same thing in different countries that you talk about the same thing have the same goals on different levels also of government so I think it's it's one part that is a something that I liked and it's something that I will bring with me to Norway it's something that we can work with more in detail thank you very much and we'll bring the end the session to an end so that we can get out and have a cup of coffee but I really would just highlight those positive points that we each of the speakers raised about their processes I think we've had a very interesting dialogue around some of the things that are absolutely fundamental to working together with people and I would reiterate I'd finish on a note of great hope as I said at the start that Brand Indonesia is who would have thought that Indonesia would have been leading the way on these collaborative approaches and in Asia more broadly I think but certainly within Asia Indonesia is leading the way on these collaborative approaches to solving very very complex problems through the partnerships of companies civil society communities and government at all levels and I hope that the Indonesian experience can be shared and obviously with the role that Norway is playing broadly in the global effort on deforestation it's great to have you here too global forest watch our eyes now on the forest which is very valuable all of these processes are going to help us so I conclude with great hope that the experiences that we're learning here in Indonesia around collaborating together with other governments with all sections of society are very positive and leave us with great hope for the forest so enjoy your coffee and thank you very much thank you