 because since it's all teared down moment and still we have a lot of people here, interesting. This is as well an interesting talk because it's Helen Lee who's going to present us actually give us an overview actually about what hackers you know in music meant actually in the history. So it's a given overview. I understood as well she gives certain examples and I think she's going to kick this a little bit further because she's going to talk a little bit about our current work and future objectives. So I would, well, fasten seatbelts I would say. Yes, yes, Helen Lee give her warm applause. This is a lecture about hackers and music technology. Hello, I'm Helen. If you want to follow me on the monitor, all my social contacts. Okay, right. I'm going to talk to you today about I'm going to give you a story about how the developers in the 1940s changed the place of music technology at the beginning of the 1940s by what they were doing. They still are really cool things by just some cool things. And I'm also going to give you an overview of some of the coolest projects being in London and Berlin at the moment. So I'm living in Berlin at the moment, but I'm actually living in the music hacking scene in London for a long time as well. So I'm just doing these projects. But before I start off on my story and I'm going to just introduce myself. I am a creative technologist, which is a ridiculous buzzword to us. In a box, but I'm basically a massive nerd who really likes artists. I like to smush them together. My favorite things to smush together are electronics and hardware, and I also make a lot of strange musical instrument creations, a lot of experimental music and interesting musical instruments. This is one of my experimental instruments and I've taken them on residencies in London and Shenzhen. I presented them in London and high in Copenhagen. And I like to experiment with buttons. I'm not so much for sounds like people's noise art, but for me I like my instruments as well. I also really like at the moment, this is this is made out of brass and made with lots of metals, but at the moment I'm on a big soft circuit kick, so I'm experimenting with electronic embroidery and soft metal. So I'll show you some of the things that look like sculptures. Obviously, this doesn't pay my rent, so I also do some product design and I'm a writer as well. This is a product design that I have in the box, very exciting. It's a powerful instrument for children, and it's a DIY wearable instrument for children to learn how to do it, and I designed that with a small project later, but that's some of the things. And I also do little things. This is still from one of my books. I wrote recently, it came out, and one called the Crafty Kids Guide to DIY Electronics, which is based on the needs of electronic origami, paper, just kind of like DIY robotics as well. I also write for Hackaday, I've written for blah, blah, blah, it doesn't matter. I wrote a couple of things, a couple of books, a couple of things, and so on. My favorite story is the story of this rather pretentious quote from a rather pretentious man who I still kind of love. So a guy called John Cage, who most people know him for his experience, he wrote a lot of books on this topic. He was also a pretty early on a hardware hacker, he made experiments on the first thing he says was him like smashing a piano and changing that. So he was a composer, he was also a hardware artist. And he said this, there was no noise, and the reason for this quote is that it kind of reminds you that all music is made up. All the instruments are made up. The violin was until probably the 13th century when the instrument work had converged, and someone used the old instruments, and in the years, they can evolve through the ages, right? And of course, think of an instrument as a new instrument thing. And we've just been messing around with science since we've been moving, basically. And just as we're people, and I think of classical musicians, we exchange instruments, we experiment as, for example, Stravinsky, Debussy. Some people think they're boring, hit pieces about them in the mail, you know, the daily mail of the time. So basically, anything that sounds strange to you now, or something that's experimental to us, could well have an impact in a long time. So yeah, okay, I don't think there's a very long period. Even dying to the note A, 140 Hz, it was not the letter, sorry, it was not 440 Hz until the 90 Hz. When a group of dudes met up in one room, in one room, we signed this agreement saying, okay, I'll give you the notes. So all that, it would mean to Italy might be different to a flute in France. You'd have, like, certain general variations. So it wasn't until yet that the 1950s that I think there's a wonderful series of conspiracy theories around the kind of theories they chose for me. So that's because it's a method of mind control. And there are alternative websites out there now. You can actually go and consider, like, some of those conspiracies. There are websites that are campaigning, like groups that are campaigning for it to be changed. So the whole group of people, like, to be to be changed, there were 432, and there's one out of 438. And if you're in the 438 of them camp, because there are opposing camps as well. So you're on the 38 camp, more on luck, because someone's made a music adjuster, okay? So you can take what's like that you've done, and you can put it into a converse, and all of your music, so that's it. And there's even a wonderful fringe group calling for a French group in the 30th century. I love it. So if you ever want to go down to conspiracy theory YouTube, well, probably you'll do it on the camp, but you don't really know what's on the camp. So you can, like, look at that. But the basic point here is that music is all made up, right? And instruments are all made up. My main point here is that music is through, and one of the paths, one of the many paths of playing music, and I want to look at one piece of hacked technology, and we have different devices with it that they just have to do, change, modern history of production. This is the magnetic tape for that. It's a lovely device, and it was popularized in World War II by the Nazis, and after the World War II, and the BBC took over themselves to try and develop a version of this. So it's a relatively modern version of this radio, and it's just started becoming popular. And it used real-time broadcasts, and we used it to gramophones, and we used it musically, and they were relatively expensive, but as a bunch of hackers saw its potential to use it, and we also used hackers for musical hackers to create a bunch of these magnetic tape recorders, and as people wanted to do it, they just wanted to work with it, and I wanted to talk a little bit about it. What they did is they made it in Paris in 1940s, and I've taken one lonely guy in Egypt as well, but there was, like, he was a very good job this was doing. And what you do is you see that the actual tape that you use a razor blade to cut it, and then you can travel, flip it over, tape it back together, and in the middle you can cut it, and connect it together. This is how it looks. Okay, so not only can you chop things up and turn them around, you can speed them up. This seems so basically, if you do it faster, it will give you a higher turn, and if you do it slower, you slow it down a little bit, so we know that's fine. They think it's really never if you don't immediately get a low frequency, you could make sounds that were not existing. You can find, get a new sound in this area, if you want. If you do different movements, then you get different, for example, content, and in some of the instruments, you can use the sound to create new sounds, for example, one so you can create sounds that are not fast, which is short, and at the same time, there's the other important thing, which was to go outside, instead of having to record in a studio, you could have a physical recording, or you could carry around, and a microphone, so you could go and record sounds outside, find sounds, and then you could take it back to the studio, chop it up with a scalpel, sell a tape it back together, re-record it, and you could create, you know, it's just a huge part of new, and some of the more important aspects of making music. They basically were, as I say, these French artists in France, in Paris, and they were doing it, and they did, too, modern music, digital preservation techniques, and so on, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were so happy to have been listening to that. I won't lie, they sound pretty awful. Nobody wants to listen to them, but I'm sure of Parisia, they were not making the music they were making, as were the techniques that they were making. They were so efficient, and it was incredible, but actually was incredibly influential. We use something right now as just an ordinary thing, but this was the common thing that we came to a head in in the 19th century, and it was possible to use this technique on tour and other notes. Now, normally, while I would play, normally, when I'd be able to talk similar to this at the Hackaday, they'd make a 10-second snippet of the Beatles, so I've decided not to play the Beatles. But today, I'm not going to have to play the Beatles anymore, and you can hear them on the sidelines, and that's actually flipped. That's just flipped signs. So all of the Beatles brought in signs from their home. They flipped it around, speeded up, speeded up, speeded it down. So it sounds like a very high-pitched art. They really could hear a sign in that song, and it's just Paul McConaughey laughing, and he manipulated the scalpels and all these different tools, right? You can use these in modern music, you know, in your Ableton, or your Logic, or whatever, you know, those are just smart features, but this was the beginning of this. It's incredibly important. I think we're dying this off, but I'm actually going to take it to the end, and then to go on with the modern mainstream production, and I'm going to talk about this woman instead, who was my favorite thing about Hacker Culture is the way that we reaffirmed Hacker culture that we riff off of each other's work. So I'm going to go slightly sideways, and I'm going to cooperate with this artist and engineer. Her name is Daphne Orem, and her name is Daphne Orem. Who heard Daphne Orem here? Ten of you. Okay. Actually, more than usual. So Daphne Orem is an artist, I don't know her name, and that's why I never met her. And she was a musician, she was an electronics engineer, who was unfortunate enough to be a woman, and has a pretty tragic work history. But she wanted the iconic figures of early electric music. She should be as well known as a figure or whatever. But anyway, so she's a great musician, and she got a job at the BBC queuing up these reel-to-reel acts, which is actually a pretty big deal at the BBC. So she was, um, she showed us reel-to-reel acts and, um, just studio recording techniques, you know, standard, um, and while she was there, um, I believe she met some of the music, correct? And she was, uh, basically, um, they met a couple of people. It totally blew up. She was like, oh, my God, I'm gonna die. She is cool, like, in the revolutionized everything. She took it back there and predicted Beale Neff. Everyone was like, no, go back to pressing buttons. So she did. And then she also would run around the BBC late at night after hours, um, and then she started printing at the time, and then they needed her own studio, and she would experiment with all these things. And then she, um, was an amazing person as well. She was one of the first people in the world, she was actually really liked my music, because she was one of the first instances of someone who recorded her oscilloscope. And she was doing this for maybe five, six, seven years, um, and she started to get to me, and she managed to finally convince somebody to give her a commission to create an incident. So, um, for a show, um, um, and, um, it was a success. Um, also, people hated it. Um, but enough people wanted her to repeat it, that eventually the BBC would have her own studio, which is, you know, out of the question for someone else. And, um, for a woman, um, so she just had to make this happen. She, yeah, unfortunately at this point, it's got the BBC radio and like workshop, which is one of the most iconic sound design, um, workshops, um, so she started this workshop, the BBC radio and like workshops, but a year later she leaves, um, to start her own artist practice because, um, they said she wanted my ideas and they wanted my work, but they didn't want me. Um, so she had to leave her life's work and she was largely erased, actually, um, from everything that she did, even though she found this absolutely useless work. Um, but she would have created, you know, she didn't have a son after that, but she would have often created, um, this wild synthesizer, which is in the London synthesizer, um, instead of, she was just looking at waveforms of music, so she thought she would use more than just the waveforms and then have the synthesizer very interpretive waveforms, and that's what the oramics, which she was looking at, was being wild, like that up on the internet as well, it's cool to look at. So, yeah, she's becoming a bit more popular now, now, because of the work of some of the, um, the guys at the radio phonic workshop who still exist, some of the old guys, and of course some of the people from her workshops, um, but also because she, um, she's, um, she's famous, and, uh, she's quite famous now, because of her, um, this lady here, this is Delia Darbysha, and who's heard of Delia Darbysha? A lot more than before, so, and it's Delia Darbysha, again the same, she's got a maths and music degree, she couldn't get a job, but she ended up basically pastoring into music, at the radio phonic workshop, um, and eventually got a job there, um, and then she got a job, she made the instrumentation for this, um, and then we can play this. Um, before I do, I want you to think about the fact that at the time every sound had to be physically cut and sticky taped together, every single, not, not every single, and there's no tape recorded on tape, on a cassette. Okay, so you have to, it's an absolutely enormous process of recording the science, recording the circuit, taking the science together, making our real recording of every sound, and then you've got this, and then you add more separate sounds like this, and then you have to, um, you've got a huge amount of multi-track technology, okay, they're literally different machines, shout out on different machines, um, and that's how they were charred, multi-track, um, but she's very blasé, but it was kind of, she's just ridiculous to me now, to be able to compose a piece of music like that, and she just shrugged and said, well, it seemed to work, um, which I'm kind of charming, um, but it's just, um, I'm gonna play a little bit. No! Well, I'm gonna play it for you anyway. It didn't exist, no synthesizers and devices that modify music, and she herself made the instruments that produced each element of this track, she used a lot of electronic engineering, electro-techniques, um, I did actually, um, want to, um, play one of her own songs, so that's why her commercial musicians were allowed, um, experimental musicians, according, she, I think you, you kind of forget, this is the kind of 60s, actually, kind of 50s and 60s, um, that music was, um, pretty cool, for example, this one, do you recognize this track? It was made for one show, Science Fiction, and it's, it's, it's, it's preserved as a very popular, um, example. If we go a little bit back to the studio, um, and so that's the, that's my story of the BBC Radio, um, one of the BBC Radio-Phonic Workshop engineers, um, unfortunately, a new country that I watched, and I just thought this was kind of a key sentiment, and because they're making things up, they weren't, they weren't the experts, you know, what they couldn't do, so they just didn't know what we were able to do, and it was really special and really cool, and something kind of was just iconic, you know, some of the biggest electorates in the mix, and it's still, still say that the work of the BBC Radio-Phonic Workshop was one of the, they didn't even know about it, um, so yeah, that's the BBC Radio-Phonic Workshop, um, and I think electronic music, um, we allow for, um, musicness and technology, and we allow for the noises and allow for, um, things that don't fully, um, you don't really, um, see what they're for, like the, the power of, um, allowing for, um, a good foundation that isn't very successful, but it's what isn't science, it's something that I hear is, um, is, um, it's, um, it's something that was at golden age, um, we got the invention of new technology, which is a new technology to a, um, a reasonable number of people, um, to this amazing sea change, and the way that people made music, made it, um, a way that we make music was changed by, by, um, in analogous mode, we created music, experimented, but it was, um, something that we're currently in a golden age, um, for, um, with experimental experiments, experimental science in general, and, and I think that's, um, we got, um, loads and loads of really exciting new technologies that are coming from us, just like controllers, we've, we can make our in modern, in modern era, for example, synthesizers, which is, which is a, uh, audio controllers, um, for example, um, think about Demphi, um, she didn't, um, find the VBDO radio phonic workshop until she had a spark of an idea from, from, from, from the initial moment that she was in the beginning, actually, she was learning techniques, and learning and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and in the room to learn that you don't have to touch somebody, right? There's the only way to do that, and for sharing your place, these communities are just way more accessible through online places and a lot of tribal community in about the same time. And this is what's in it, but it doesn't matter. And this is a little bit of a shift, too, now. And where the music technology, where one of the places where they did some music technology it was there and there were a lot of things, but we did a lot of things with a community called a Hack U-Stick community in London, and we did a lot of events there. And we did a lot of experiments, and we didn't like this idea, we just showed that hackers were making space in the house, kind of music technology partnerships. And those kind of things, actually, so that you can share things, and check out the needs of many of the events is really, really crucial. Actually, I do know why I put this slide in. So this slide, this is a great place for the three years, and then, I'm going to raise the rent for four months. And this amazing community all of us, so many of us, and the Hack Space moved from Central London to West London, and a bunch of other hack spaces in the labs closed as well. So this is a hack space in the center of London, in West London, and as a direct result of that, I moved to Berlin. So by aligning this kind of gentrification of our hack spaces, we actually do destroy community. So as much as we can create community, it's a lot of work. So this is an example of an online community. This is a unique community. So you are at the front of the London music tech hack scene, probably the most famous person on the speckled sound, but on the computer. And he's an electronic engineer and general purpose weirdo. And I'm sure I like him. And then, this is one of his creations. He made a musician, which is as terrific as you imagine, if not more so. So music sounds the same, but it's just an unique picture to not have a nice time. But he doesn't just show his instruments. He doesn't just perform what he creates. He does his own electronic teardowns as well. So I've done a bunch of stuff from watching his videos and looking at actually how he's done them. I've watched his video, as he's really excited. I mean, maybe five years ago, I would have had access to this kind of knowledge. I just wouldn't have even known my knowledge. And I probably wouldn't have even known my knowledge. I wouldn't have been exposed to him. I certainly wouldn't have been exposed to him. So I'm going down my look and I'm saying, hey, look at what he's doing on a weird Furby instrument with me. And they'd be like, cool instruments. So it's kind of nice to be able to share your weird passions with other people on the internet. And of course, have a world with these. This is me and my friends. We've done a fair bit of music tech hacking together. So this is actually the British version of Congress as a German man. I guess it's the version of Congress. So EMF camp, which is actually in 2020 this year. So the first people small and first of all, these kinds of spaces and these kind of events really allow, I mean, I've learned so much just by the year. The last thing that we should do is we should cherish the hacker spaces and the events. And we should also support people like Sam, who makes his living through Patreon. And you should also support these maker spaces and events and also by supporting individual people and creating share work, I think we can cherish this community. Okay, on to the final bits. I'm going to show you some of the projects that I've been working on with other people. But the reason I've chosen the ones that I'm showing you is because they're also using some of my favorite ways to show you how to make, you know, how you can have a go at it. And so recently I've lived in London and Berlin and one of my favorite things to do is what I'm going to say is to make and instrument the context of two people's work, two or more people's work, like I always find like my work is going to be way better if I'm collaborating with somebody else. And I know that they're always doing what they do and they're always smushed together to create something that's sort of a good example of them on our aim. This is a good example, I feel. This is one of my first sonic circuit salt to reach us. So now I'm going to have a, um, just overnight hack with my commuter friend, Andrew Mocky, and Trace Dini from Oshka, and my partner's name is Huck. And we work together overnight to create something that is, um, if you don't know what circuit sculpture is, it's basically, um, instead of putting it inside of a box, um, all the parts or the key parts of it are showed and are actually celebrated as art in their own right. And so that's what circuit sculpture is. And there's a couple of wonderful people and it's like the low-heels that are made through to the fame and a person who's living in San Francisco and there's a guy called G.R.I.P. and they make really, really awesome, um, to make neat things. But, um, I'm not skinny and neat, so I make big, awesome messes. This is the first thing. Um, it was really interesting to meet, and I do like to touch it right now. Um, it's, um, can be unreliable, but I find it kind of really fun to work with. And it's very intuitive, um, and then it led to me to do more of this stuff. Um, I'm really inspired by kind of, um, utopian science stuff and I want to make a series to come out to the same world or something like that. Um, so this was the second in the series. This is a more traditional instrument. It's more traditional than that. The past one, the second one, was sort of like semi-generative. Um, and this one is more like one note per limb with two modes of modulation in space. In a more general sense. And here, each note makes something specific. And they can work together. So that's my base creature. Um, which I'm actually developing for the first time and this woman, an amazing bassist called I say her's Hassan, who is the bassist of the band from the 12 Pixies. And I'm gonna, I'm making her, um, her stage presence one. Um, so she's gonna be able to play it, but that's gonna be the foundation of her bass as well. But it's kind of interesting to try and create something that um, in this functionality is very traditional, but in the band, its form is really weird and that was kind of fun to play with. Um, but um, my latest one is another thing. Um, but this is kind of like an abstract cephalopod. It's gonna be human-sized. Um, and each of the limbs will pay a different part of the choral ring. Um, and that is like some kind of raxan-like feature at the time when modulating my touch with my copper rods. But she made prototype, um, which you can listen to. So this is the latest version of one of the limbs that you can listen to. Um, and it just makes it more than everybody seems to really like cuddling it. Um, so I decided to make it. Um, and I'm gonna finish my touch. If you wanna listen to my pairing tentacle afterwards, you can. It does sometimes work. Um, but I should say, actually, hello. Um, so this is the machine embroidered conductor thread. So that, that is able then to connect the capacitive, that's a capacitive touch sensor. That's a touch sensor. Um, so you can see that. It mostly worked. I made it yesterday, so. Um, yeah, that's that. Um, so you can see, I've been able to create the intricate sounds with the help of my composer friend. And I would not be able to do this. And I would not be able to get the implementation I wanted onto the people working with Drew. Um, so it's, it's, um, it's really nice to kind of, like, sit together and mash up your, mash up your emotions. Um, now, these are all used for these. And some of them are more of the instruments. This is a wearable classical piece of the, um, it's gonna be a vocoder. Um, but it's not finished yet. But, um, the reason I'm showing you that is because that's the sensor, my friend. This is, uh, the glitch, my friend. Um, it's, it's essentially, like, if any of you have used capacitive touch before, you'd probably be able to use it. And then we have one to one sensor. This is, like, an end to one to one sensor. So, um, it's the most normal one. It's got, A has got, like, 20 something pins, which is way more. Um, and it's, um, way more sensitive as well. So I find it really, really great. So if anybody's doing stuff with cap touch and they're having some problems with it, A, make sure you're grounded and B, have a go on that trail. It's like 10, 10 euros, I think, that, that sense. So you can see one of their books. Um, now I'm going to do a whole slide about that. And I'm going to have to go through them because, uh, they're going to take a step, now I can move it to use for embedded, um, systems, uh, for embedded engines. Um, this is how the science is this big. It's based on the Pocketeer, which is the size of a small Altoids, so it's very, very small. And I put it in the, uh, it runs this guy's computer. Um, and, um, it's going to be awesome. It's a super low latency response. Um, it's super fast. Super. Also the cool thing is it runs this. It's pure data. It's a visual programming, um, visual design creation, and a lot of artists and designers and music creators. Um, you might, um, you might, um, this is something called Max, actually made by the same guy. Um, but this one's open source. Um, yeah. Um, so that's Bella. I'm pure data. I'm checking out if you're interested in, um, um, the reason why this is special is because, because of the low latency response and because no other, so you can't get a microcontroller that will run pure data. Um, it's actually the Raspberry Pi, but the latency on the Raspberry Pi is, like, me. Um, so I was just trying to use the Valera, and the Pure Data's a nice combo. Um, Bella, I think that's that one. I wanted to talk to you briefly about is, uh, this is Ariana Grande, who I don't know who she is, but anyway, she's 13, certainly will. Um, here she is demoing, um, um, demo. Um, she's controlling, um, she's doing looping, she's doing looping, um, obviously just, um, thank you, Ariana. So that's also the, um, this is what she's using here, and this is coming off, um, um, called Mimu, um, um, and it's written into my image and heap, if you know how. Um, and I just thought I would like to do quite a lot of teaching, as well. I just thought, I was like, oh my god, if I showed this to a 12-year-old girl and told them what I was doing, they wouldn't have used that mind. So, these people can't be around though, and they can't be using the classroom, so that's a huge advantage of her. Um, and that's true if I could make a children's version. Um, and um, um, she said yes, and um, she, um, wait, this is the most technology called the microgrid, um, and it's DIY, it's like my first microcontroller that was made by the BBC, it's like 10 pounds, but what it does is that it's quite cheap. Um, and, um, I was able to um, make an approximation of a $5,000 glare where the microcontroller was made. Um, which is nice, it has the core of the microcontroller, which is the end. Um, but, um, I haven't got time to talk to you about that. That's my led, I've got a robot Unicorn, my gesture control. I've got a lot of time for that. Going on to the next one. Um, I was able to um, with one bridge, one microgrid, um, and a little bit of code, and she worked on the software. This is the position of Bishy, who's really awesome. Um, this is the... I need to follow a hack to do a little bit of a little bit of doing almost the same things that they did on to um, it was a fun project for the last 5,000 5,000 euros of expensive tools. Um, I have, um, all this, by the way, um, how I did that. Um, that's all my help, all of the code, um, you can go to a microgrid, you can do, um, or you can get the kits like 30 bucks. And you can, of course, buy these um, which costs 10 euros. Um, and I'm pretty, um, reacting to more information about foreign music technologies and hacking. Music, music, music. Thank you. Thank you, Helen, for this fantastic presentation I'm wondering how are we going to play that thing there? I don't even know how we're going to play that thing that I left there. Yes, yes, only the war's there. No, you're fine with that. So, the question from the internet is have you ever considered um, if you've ever considered um, if you've ever considered um, if you've ever considered um, if you've ever considered um, if you've ever considered um, if you've ever considered um, if you've ever considered um, um, if you've ever considered um, if we were to um, uh, we'll probably ah, we'll probably taste ham. So, you know. Um, yeah, yeah, you know. Thank you. Good night. Uh, um, personally um, I'm a very tactile person. Um, so I'm like a, music without the influence of a person, for example, an automated marble run, it will trigger sounds, which is really really cool, there's lots of people doing it, but for me personally, I just, I know, I like touching the objects that I need, you know, and the kind of street When I can directly use, interact with my devices, it's all built as a conductor, for example, in shops where you can buy small elements, small capacitors and so on. I believe in you and I have already received strange views. The question is, have you also created instruments that actually have the ability to trigger sound processing? In fact, if the tentacle itself, the sound it produces would be amplified in some way, it's going to mean more of the processing of the actual sound that comes out. Actually, when the tentacle is done, it will have some kind of, when the tentacle is ready, then it will also react visually to the touch, not just music, but, for example, if there are sensors in there, not, not like, uniform, to get it to react nicely to the touch, to it's irons, it's movable and manipulative as well. And you can also code it to that as well, so basically it's all, you know, like the number of touches, how often they, and then how people have played with that, how much time they've spent, how much they've touched, and so on. Thank you. Unfortunately, we have a spoiler, but we have to finish this now, because we don't have time. Talk to her personally here and come to the stage. Thank you for this fantastic presentation.