 Hello, welcome to the Debecombe Travel Sponsorship both with Philippe Hens and Ganev. Thank you Welcome everybody and let us start out with a short description of the past methods which we used in the past years Basically travel sponsorship means that we have to look at multiple hundred people who want money to get sponsored and We had two different ways to do that in the past The first one was that everyone well Everyone has to apply for sponsorship and tell us how much they have an actual private cost and how much they want to have sponsored and The first method we used then was a very big ISE meeting where we actually talked about every candidate When we talked about every candidate and looked at his flight price and what he wanted to have and from where he came and Also the contribution to Debian to actually judge if he should get a travel sponsorship or not Everyone who was in the travel sponsorship team at that Debecombe could vote for him plus minus or nothing at all And in the end we got out Voting for every candidate and could rate them and had a ranking that ranking still had ties in it There are multiple people got the same ranking in the end and we had another ISE meeting to untie those people and In the past two or three years we actually do it by having people enter the data into Penta barf and then have all the members of The travel sponsorship go into Penta barf and rate the people inside there They do see the travel sponsorship amounts they want to have and they see from where they are coming They can also look up What they are doing for Debian and then they can rate people based on two values currently One is about the contribution in Debian and the other one is the requested amount compared with other people that are coming from the same area that also gives us a ranking and Afterwards we had an ISE meeting again where we talked about if we want to change the ranking and as we have Limited amount of money available where we want to set a cut-off line Everyone beyond that cut-off is getting told that they do not get any money at all and everyone before Appears in an order and we tell them you can have money when this actual Budget team is telling us yes. You have this amount of money available So those are the ways we are having in the past the way of selecting a team in the past usually Was that someone who started the travel sponsorship went around and asked people? Either on a mailing list or a lot of people directly like this year I asked about 40 or 50 people if they want to participate in the end We had a team made out of 12 people who rated in the past years. We had asked on mailing list or also Going around and just asking people One goal of asking those people is that you want to have people from all around the world because you have Applicants from all around the world and usually people local to those know them better and can better Judge if they contribute to Debian or if they just want some money to have a vacation somewhere So usually we end up with a team that is all around the world and an ISE meeting to coordinate is not all the nicest thing Some people end up being in the meeting at 4 a.m. Some people end up in the meeting somewhere around 10 p.m. or so and That's basically how it's working in the past well every year we discuss this and the problem that keeps on coming up again and again is that The rating system requires the last candidate to be in pretty much before you can start Ordering people which means that you have to wait till quite late in the day to give out money and That's a bit of a shame because prices go up So people's predictions of what things are going to cost are generally wrong And it sort of punishes people for applying early because their idea of the prices could be radically wrong by the time They get money to pay for things so it would be nice to come up with some scheme that actually Rewarded people for applying early and rewarded people for well the system already does reward people for giving us lots of information, but if the assessment started as soon as the first candidate applied then that might be some Way of encouraging people to apply early and also would give a way of giving feedback to people that give sort of insufficient details to To judge whether they're good or bad people to be sponsoring The trouble with that is that obviously you're gonna if you start giving out money before the last person's in then the best best candidate for sponsorship might be the last candidate and They might unfairly be Given no money But I guess that's all the tough is the way I look at that And there is one other problem with that to keep in mind because depth confusially gets money from sponsors And we didn't money ever label for something like travel sponsorship is usually available pretty late in the whole process because there are other expenses that are more interesting like you want to have a venue actually or Something like that or you want to have accommodation already done and stuff like that the travel money usually is freed up pretty late in the process Yeah, so we have some sort of Agreement from Debian that we should be able to have a budget in advance of sponsorship for next year Which would allow us to start handing out money as soon as we start getting applicants Obviously don't want to just give money to the first person that turns up So we could come up with some sort of metric where you wait until some number of people are in a queue Get all the people that are in the team or some proportion of the people that are in the team to Assess them all and if there's one standout candidate that everybody agrees definitely should be sponsored Then you can just give them the money straight away And then they can go and buy their tickets and that's someone that's out of the system So I think we should treat it like people walking into an emergency room So if someone is completely obviously going to die in the next two minutes They normally get them straight through the emergency room and don't put them in a queue In the same way if we've got a candidate that's either so good or so bad That we can make a decision straight away Then we should do that because that frees up the team for doing the choosing to concentrate on the difficult cases in the middle But how we do that is another question which you know contributions welcome The other thought I had was that we want diversity on the team and we could do that in by doing there's some research about Connectivity of social networks where if you pick people at random and then ask them who their most connected friend is Or we might ask them who they're most trustworthy for handing out money friend is then you actually get a very good set of candidates compared with random and it should We could do that by doing stuff like the outliers on the the GPG Trust keys key web of trust because that should like the first most the least connected person on our web of trust and The second least connected person are very far from one another probably on the planet And if we go through the list in that order obviously we need to worry about people then gaming the system by making up new keys and things But making up new keys or saying I don't sign all of you ten people until I have my travels from the ship I'm in the team or something. Yeah, so you need to be there are serious problems with that. So maybe random is better And you still need to make sure that you get a very diverse Yeah, keep on doing it until you've got quite a large team You can carry on doing it if it turns out that some of the people obviously you the person that's then nominated as their best mate Needs to say yes to being on the team Once you've got enough people on the team great if halfway through the process It turns out that some people aren't doing anything you can just create a few more team members if if you're using that method and That seems like a fair thing I think if I was I don't particularly want to be the chairman of this But I've been talking about it for long enough. So I'll probably end up doing the job If I was the chairman I would not want to be voting unless there's some sort of tie-break issue because I think it's too easy to assemble a bunch of people that know one another from previous dev comps and Then get all the the friends from previous dev comps along rather than people that have never been and It's much more important to have people that have never been come to dev comp Right with this wiki page The URL for it is this if you can see it It's wiki dev comp for wiki dev comp 11 travel sponsorship boff with the capital TS and boff If you've got ideas for this just edit the page as we go along and I'll I'll reload it occasionally I can reload it now if you want So we've pretty much done that but The rest of the page is that large enough or shall I zoom it down and we get more text on the screen? It's okay So I mean we've got a load of points here Which we can go through if people have got ideas that they want to contribute is someone monitoring IRC for this I think we've covered the idea that we should reward people for applying early I For the voting thing I would prefer that the people on the committee Be given as much information as possible like how much money we're likely to have how much money the person's asking for They can work out for themselves How much it's going to cost or they can discuss it amongst the team, but when they do their rating I think they should just put people in order as If they were the only person making the decision and then we have a mechanism for averaging that out because that way you can It's really easy if you've got an ordered list of people and a new person turns up in the queue to put them somewhere in that list It's really difficult to if you've got How useful they are to debut and rating and how worthy they are of sponsorship and something else The first person that you see you will always give sort of middle rankings Even if you think because you don't know if someone better or worse is going to turn up Of course, this has a trouble that the dev conf team It's it's a sponsorship team needs to give you a hard bj for that and that's If we get that thing you do because what you can do is so at the start we get 10 grand from Deb conf so we can decide that we're going to give out some or all of that Once we've got at least 20 people in the queue so once you've got 20 people in the queue and a majority of the people or The assessors or some other proportion have assessed people in the queue You can then do an average rating and if there's one person that's way over way up at the top You just give them the money and then you keep on repeating that process and if there's someone right at the bottom Then you tell them terribly. Sorry, but your application has been rejected That also gives people the chance to say oops. I didn't fill anything for any of the forming and Have another try which would get rid of some of the problems that we have where people realize quite late in the process They're not going to get Anything and that's partly because they failed to fill all the forms in do we have any Suggestion or something coming here any questions? Or are you all just listening to Phil and me discussing? This isn't really disagreeing with you. I think it's agreeing with what you're saying, but just to give a slightly different perspective I've mostly tried to keep out of the actual Allocation stuff this year partly actually is because I didn't see the email from GANF until after a long time I think but Normally I've tried to keep out of it but I think we have it has been a problem for many people over the last years how late we've given trials sponsorship and that's being perfectly fair to you with how we've worked that we haven't wanted to allocate until we've had the money but I think it Although it's going to be a hassle to do and it does cause problems It would be a much better system if we could give out money much earlier, so I mean whether that's Giving it a day after someone spends it or even or potentially for something I mean again There could exist people who should come to DevConf who do not have the cash to buy a plane ticket and Don't have a credit card or whatever again. Ideally we would have some system that in that case we can just buy it for them Before they come because obviously the most important thing is getting people here I think we've got quite a good system at the moment for people who are Well off from a rich country But just don't feel like paying for their flight But that's not really what we should have as our focus In this year for example, we have cynical arguing people who couldn't pay the tickets up front and as it was decided They get here. We could get the money via SPI to them It's not exactly the most liked way currently because there is trouble with getting the receipts and all the stuff later on Of course earlier we give it out in nicer days So if we get the jail and that's as 10,000 20,000 whatever at some point very early on that would be really nice Hector yeah, I Don't like the voting system. I think it would be better to try to think on a kind of a filter of a table and have like not like We value contributions or we value like have a set of rules and then apply these rules because voting Yeah, I know this guy. He's my friend and I bought him and give him a lot of points And then some other people. I don't know maybe so it is a bit biased So it's just a suggestion that could yes change and there is also Wait, let me answer to set from please and send the next There there are humans involved. So there's always a trouble with I know this guy So I will give him a little bit more That's one reason why we always try to get the team as large as possible As I've said earlier this year I wrote to 40 or 50 people and we had about 12 in the team later on and We had the people as far away from each other as was possible As long as you have some kind of human involved you will always have a be a thing in to If you have a technical way to find out who's contributing more and who should get more money for something We are all happy to hear about it. We would like to include that Okay, it means like when you try to get into a government position They they kind of have a give you points. They have a table. So if you have This certification then you have more points that other that doesn't have it and things like that So it's kind of more fair to people that you don't know or and there is also about the money allocation Might be helpful Or just a thought of like the money if there's money left over from this depth conf to be Allocated for travel sponsorship on next next step conf. So you already have the money and So, I don't know. I mean, I don't know the accounting But if you have like 20,000 left over you could allocate that for next year and how like You have you have depth comp minus one I don't know if they make sense Right the problem with doing the we have a table and it says this person's got a higher rating than that person is that it's very difficult to do that and Start the handout procedure before you've got the last person in Because the temptation is always to think there's one person that hasn't applied yet Who is better than all these people and we need to reserve some money for them? Okay, so That's why I think that you should just get every person in the team to assume that it's their personal responsibility And that they should be if they put someone at the top of their list They should be able to justify why they did that and they might do that by being informed by a Table that says that this person has made contributions But they should be in a position to defend their decision and if if everybody acts as if they are the one person making the decision I think we're a strange bunch in Debian So one of the things that I think just to make sure that there's sort of openness if we can Work out a way of including enough people. We should make sure that all those people are people that aren't applying for sponsorship So it's only people that don't need it that are making the decision because then there's no even appearance of vested interest and That makes it a lot easier for everybody to trust the team if you do that Most of the people in Debian who end up handling money at all don't even Claim legitimate expenses unless you sort of drag them screaming towards the money because it's really difficult to look like or not It's really difficult to be in the position where you have access to that sort of money and Not open to actually accusation of fiddling somehow, so I think we're Comparing this situation to politicians is completely ridiculous basically All the people that are involved in Debian have already volunteered in a big way They're not in it for some sort of weird self-interest so Yeah, maybe there are one or two people that apply for tourism funding, but it's not that often the case I mean that that depends on what the policy of the rules you said Is it on yeah fine Also, I want to reply to the part where you said if you have left over money at the previous step comps and already give out that money I Don't want to give it out at Debian for shortly before at the last step comp That money should in total go back to the Debian BJ as we are based with that And only when we are opening the next BJ for Debian comp and now that we are having some money either by the DPL applying it to us or By getting income from somewhere we should actually spend money For various reasons first because it's not our money. It's Debian's money So we shouldn't give it out and second I myself wouldn't be comfortable running around with three four five six eight hundred euros When I am When I cannot be sure that I'm actually attending the next step comp They could happen a lot of things that actually prevent me from going to Debian comp either my work says no You cannot go or Debian says we don't have Debian comp anymore or whatever may happen And then I'm running around with multiple hundred euros of Debian money that I don't actually Can do anything with except for spending for a flight ticket for a Debian comp that might not happen for me Well, I was more meaning like if you go to LCA you pay a fee and this fee Doesn't pay anything of that year but pays next year because they already have the money from previous years so I don't know and also I value more to Sponsor people with she's in Debian because I feel like it's more like a family. I'm happy to see people I don't see it during the year then maybe new people that you don't know and Well, maybe they might do good things for Debian in future, but maybe they just come once and you sponsor for as a new developer, but I Don't know might not be I Mean I prefer to sponsor well-known developers if they if they need it rather than new people that haven't been here we Actively try to sponsor more than the well-known developers. Of course, we have a limited amount of money That's also one reason why last year Joey has and got the depth Deppconf newbies fund actually from Debian and this year we repeated it again to have people that never have been in a Deppconf or More than three years ago or something to have some new faces coming to Deppconf and not only those that we are seeing regularly here I'm happy with having more people sponsored if we have an unlimited amount of money everyone can come the more we have the better It is actually Setting a table with a punctuation That leads to the precisely the same having a table Even if it says well, you're granted three points if you are a DD then you're granted two points if you're doing video job That doesn't really Solve the bias problem because after all We would be biased to To setting a scheme in a way that benefits Each of the individuals in the in the group or their close friends. I mean any system can be tricked and the I think nobody Well, nobody should accuse the the team of A of knowingly is being selective about who is Granted more sponsorship or higher ranking or whatever. I mean any any system will have a Good consequence and a bad consequence This time it well This discussion came if I'm not mistaken after one incident of one person that was well in the opinion of many Unjustly Ranked well, it happens. I mean we cannot just avoid that I think that the idea that you have this time to bring people who have not been very involved in that coffee for is a very good one because we The deaf comfort organizer team have Have made well a very a real social group. I mean we work together a lot along the years So bringing new people I think Lessons this if you well I was not this year part of the team. I was two two years before that It's not just that I enter and rate my friends and they rate the people. I don't know There's also a lot of discussion afterwards. So Even if One of the things that most triggers discussion is that if I rated you with the plus five and he writes you at Minus four then there's a huge disparity and that's the the people that get more more discussed and That tends to cancel any personal personal bias or impressions. So I think that I Mean just describing the process. It's not something we just came up with and Hope hope did works. So there's a question over on the last row actually to Um This more can Next one was more concern. No, I was I was waiting for you actually quite a long time I think that one of the things that would make it Easier for if we try to document it before I mean we are we now have some written things But maybe get these spread out and one of the things is this year incident was make a lot of noise But last year we had a couple of incidents. We just had a little bit more time They send an e-mail and we fix it it. So Every year we have this disparities Unfortunately this year we couldn't fix it in time So as they said if we have humans involved there will be even Everybody thinks about the case where we leave somebody out of it But if we start to change a lot the process between not so that doesn't happen We will have in the other type of error is having people that shouldn't be sponsored inside the list so This is a trade-off that we have to keep but I think that The list of how we do the processing would help and there are some singles that people requested And that would be very easy to others like Having no it is hard to find the volunteers and although I think Phil has this new method this proposal to find people It's always hard because you can ask them and keep saying no Some things are like Don't have people that I asked for sponsorship and I was in the travel sponsorship team So I could not accept the to be in the team next time to make it more transparent Or changing like for everybody that is part of the team the video team have it outside this lease This is another team, but then creates two lists of people And there are some ideas of that we should maybe think a little bit more is that the Having some sort of maximum amount per place But it's a huge work and this is one of the things that we are discussing yesterday And I have no idea because it would be great to have such or if you're coming from Germany the mode that the maximum We will bring burst use a thousand But then who will make sure this is the right number and this is actually quiet hard to do with the airline prices They are mostly a lottery I'm working for one and I talked to one of us doing the process and forget it. So there's nothing predictable in them so I was thinking about What I think we need to define what what we're aiming to do with the system that there's a couple of ways of doing it either it's It's very subjective based. So you have people rating essentially and and that's got one set of problems Now or you can do it as mentioned before about it being a very factually based So setting up with points and then that becomes quite clear and the second one it can work We do it in Cambridge with a project called homelink, which is essentially for Social housing so people who can't afford rents Essentially as a as local authority. We give them somewhere to live and we pay their pay their rent and that uses very much a process of points and bidding so It used the When the property comes up the person with the highest number of points gets the property And so it is certainly possible to set up a system which does that I think we need to try and work out what we're trying to do when we order people and and what we're trying to work out Is it just do they meet certain criteria or is it a lot more about? The value we think that they'll bring to debcom for the amount of work Is it a reward and trying to work out those fundamental points? I think would would certainly be be useful I think working that out is probably a task for the list because that will take some time There's not just the other value able for debcom, but there are examples for it. Let's take a Big example in that case is Otavio where you also need to keep in mind that he's handicapped and needs extra help And so has a higher amount so a simple system is not all that but probably a big Discussion on the list would be the best for that point We've been talking a lot about the rules that should be put in place and the system for allocating the money But we don't actually have it clear at the moment kind of the starting point again It was a slightly different thing for our Nils thing, but what we I don't think we have a good idea really of what the Social expectation should be of who should even be applying I'd say I mean there's some people who think They are working for Debian and they should the all right one I'm not saying individuals thinking about themselves But just out of the ideas some people at one end of the spectrum some people say Anyone working for Debian should apply for travel sponsorship. They're coming to debcom which is Debian work They should get there for they should apply as many people as possible will get it That's a valid view in itself. The other end of the spectrum is people who think well Only people from or we should be we don't have that much money therefore it should only be Targeted towards people who really need it Who couldn't possibly afford to come otherwise Obviously, there's a sort of gray area in between but still there's a question of what's actually What is right here? I mean personally I haven't yet applied for travel sponsorship for debcom apart from in Edinburgh where my application for one penny was denied But because I've kind of had always had the assumption that That I know kind of there's not that much travel sponsorship money around and there's a lot of people who are poorer than I am Obviously, I'd be quite happy to be told actually it's fine to just apply for it if you feel like it But we kind of haven't really had that discussion in a very serious way yet. I think I Think most of those questions are unanswerable And that most people will think that there's a mix of all of those things in all of the decisions Which is why I'd quite like to have a large team Using a process that's very lightweight So that it's not much effort for them to do it if that's at all possible I've no idea if it is because I've never actually done this any of this stuff myself So I have no experience whatsoever. So this is probably the ramblings of an idiot But if we can do something like that then each of those individuals can decide what that waiting They're going to put on each of those things and if we make the selection process random enough We'll get a representative sample and then the result will be something like what most people think hopefully I Mean that that's that works around dealing with the situation that we don't agree But it would still be quite friendly Of us if we announced what we expected who we expect should be applying Do we think as DebConf organization that everyone should apply and we'll hand it out as we get it? Or do we think that it should be people looking at their own circumstances and Applying if they really need it I Think that's also something we should discuss on the list because we are way too small a team for that My personal view on that has been that I've always applied for travel sponsorship But I've always taken only a short part of the actual travel amount I had so it's Some kind depth Conf is helping me pay the travel fare. I'm doing lots of work for depth Conf That's what I'm taking on that But let's see what we are getting out on the list As we have Debian policy I would suggest an action after this meeting of having a like a depth Conf policy and And Phil for example is saying we apply. I mean we have to justify why we gave maximum Punctuation for these people so you probably have a criteria to give that evaluation so just writing down this criteria and Trying to get a consensus between everyone. I think that that will help Writing down stuff will help unless you are getting too much written down than you are drawing and stuff So you need to be careful how much you actually write down Over there. We have one more is somewhere visible what was Asked and what was spent on traveling money And it's visible inside Penta bar for people that have a Administrative committee or reviewers white. It's not visible in the public at all Are we I think except yeah, are we obliged to our sponsors? Okay, everyone have a laugh at that picture for now That's actually is travel sponsorship money, which we had to give out to people Where the local banks system is well politely said completely fucked up And now let me see if you actually can answer that What's that for a keyword the idea behind my question is What are we talking about it is it the large as the large impact we got a request around 50 to 60,000 Eurs and got out 35,000 euros something like that the past at some point We had a maximum in the statistics. That's why I'm looking here, but doesn't look like we have so statistics this year We can give out the maximum number in a without our travel money. There we have it so we got a Complete travel fair for to bring people here of 64,000 That is what they have in complete travel and request its sponsorship is 46,000 and a little bit euros Okay, thank you Any other questions and more a once more. Yeah, it's actually kind of the same point, but now you've got the numbers I was just gonna say I think if we did decide that Everyone should be a everyone who feels like it should be applying then the number asked for would go up a lot here Yes, that's another thing about the kind of it's been a slightly Although it's been in theory in principle an open process. There's been a kind of Clue a group who knew about it and who felt that they were qualified and who had possibly some of them been involved in it before and knew who else had got it and so on So again, that's a kind of non-ideal thing at the moment that maybe there's a lot of people out there who just assume that they Don't qualify some of the people involved in the team have thought well They probably do qualify compared to other people that and then had a better chance of getting it That's actually one thing that comes new we also try to avoid that people think they are not qualified and we made multiple statements on lists and on planet and on wherever that we have that money available and Seeing that I got something like five thousand US dollars assigned by the DPL for that and I can only spend something like 2,000 because people just didn't come to me and asked and I cannot go to people and say you should have money come up over to Defconn They needed to be a newbie to qualify for this. Yes I needed to be new but there should be new with there should be people who haven't been to any Defconn Ever there are lots of people in Debbie and who never have been here We actually got two people who guessed it that should have from team members and stuff unfortunately both of them had to refuse Someone had a visa trouble something like 90 days. They told him it takes for him to get a visa first off it would be really helpful if all the people here could write their names on a piece of paper if nor Put themselves into the wiki probably on the paper is the easiest way of doing this because You're enthusiastic enough to actually sit here for the duration So maybe you can help if we want to bias this towards people that haven't come then if we're doing some sort of random Selection process we could wait it towards people that haven't come and you know do that so that at least When we asked them to nominate someone the person they're nominating knows someone who hasn't come Which would then help their application and also encourage them to think about applying because they know that someone that they know Is going to be on the assessment committee? Yeah, people in the people in the teams that actually know other people in their teams and want to have some and want to meet Them and stuff encourage them to do so tell them to go there apply and keep track of them Actually staying in the timelines because many people somehow Managed to miss all the timelines for some reason Just kick them repeatedly and tell them you want to have them at that conference a completely different even from everything They might know from the past and it's really worth being here I think also if we can be if we can actually do the early handout thing And we can be public about that Then that will encourage people to apply because if they see that people have been rewarded for an early application Then they'll suddenly rush into the queue rather than thinking. Yeah, I can do that at the end Someone else was a question What I haven't heard and that Ideally I would think would be one of the one of the factors is is someone that gives a talk that that we want that has a Strong plan of work for them camp or something has a it's a factor in a priority Giving talks of course cons as contribution and if you have a Very good filled out pent up of applications and you usually also have something written in the field by the heck Do I want to go to depth camp and if you have written something very impressive whatever you want to do there and One two three five ten whatever evens listed for you where you are contributing as a speaker or something That counts at least as much as having ten million packages for Damien or being in five core teams Whatever was there any attempts to to use a travel agency or to contact them Up up to now there was no attempt as far as I know. I think at some point we talked to someone You wouldn't who has travel agency experience using that for the UDS and in the depth of discuss lists They actually wrote about it that usually if you are using a travel agency You are having a high-cost edit on top of the usual ticket fare because that's how they are staying alive So it's actually giving out more money if you're using a travel agency also Another problem with using travel agencies is that well we can only Give a give a travel refunds. We cannot pay in advance and a travel agency's a work only when you pay them in advance There's one thought actually that came up if you can do payment in advance if you actually have to be J If he says it DPL says yeah, you have something like 10,000 do it and have fun Then we could pay in advance actually we still need to keep in mind that travel agencies actually want some money to live at the job after all and But we are usually trying at least to do a plenty good way in Telling people that there are things like Czech Felix or Oporto or something where you can search for flights going over multiple airlines multiple other providers and stuff Of course, it's not a perfect travel agency, but usually it makes it out cheaper and well not only that but It's also that we don't usually know that how much money will we have for the conf usually until Say this year April May it started looking is Close to what we ended up having but figures always look very bleak at that point in time so we never know how much money we will be able to approve at some point in a Well team meeting it is told to the to the sponsorship Okay, we will have a 30,000 the autos for for that and we can just wish it works But we have to be close to real figures for that Right looking at the time we are nearly out of time. So if there's one more question here, we could do that There is one more question Hector once more not a question just a comment and it's just Maybe the fundraising team should might need more help and look all into other ways Not just look into sponsoring companies, but maybe set up Kickstarter projects and things like that I know how would you feel like that? I mean people could be paying 20 euros and you can collect a lot of money out of out of that as well I did have a comment from someone here that we should allow people who can afford to pay more than they need to to Realize that they'll actually make sure that people come here and possibly provide routes outside Debian and DebConf for Funding particular people if they want to so that those people don't need to come to us for sponsorship Which seems like quite a good idea. I don't think it is necessarily something that we can directly get involved in because of the SPI being a nonprofit and So if you say here's $50 for a particular person that doesn't really fit with a nonprofit thing But if we had a structure outside of the SPI money handling for putting the Individual sponsors in touch with individual Sponsories That might help take the load off us and would allow them to negotiate something way before we have to do any of the assessment Okay, and the set Time is up. Thank you everybody for participating and please participate on the list and on the wiki and wherever and Help to get the travel sponsorship process next year. Maybe a bit nicer. Maybe a bit less complaints We always had complaints. We will always have some but maybe we are getting a bit less. Thank you for participating