 Good afternoon and welcome to another episode of Kondo Insider. My name is Jane Sugimura and I'm your host for this episode. And Kondo Insider is a show about condominium living and people who work around and live in condos. And today my guest is Raylene Tenno. She's the program director for Hawaii Council of Community Associations. Thank you, Raylene, for coming and being on my show. Thank you, Jane. Thank you for asking me to be here today. We're going to have to call this a Raylene and Jane show pretty soon. But anyway, we've got another topic about, and this is a very kind of tricky topic. And what we're going to be talking about is the request for reasonable accommodation that residents and condominiums have to ask their board. And basically, the reason for the request for reasonable accommodations is the residential type of law. It's called fair housing, and that's the ADA law, American disability law that applies to commercial buildings. The counterpart that applies to residential buildings is the fair housing. And this is the law that says if you're disabled, that the owner of the property has to make allow reasonable accommodation so that you as a disabled person can have the same enjoyment of their residential unit as a person who's not disabled. Correct. And this is a federal law. This is a federal law, so this is big fines, big enforcement. Can't play with it. Yeah, you can't play around with this, so you have to make sure that you kind of know what the law is, or if you don't know and you're faced with a situation where somebody comes and makes a request for a reasonable accommodation, the first thing you do if you don't know is you contact the Association Council and you say, I have a request for a reasonable accommodation. What do I do? Right. Right. Right. And listen to the attorney. I mean, that's where you go. I mean, sometimes the property managers know how to handle this, but if you're not sure and if your staff is not sure, that's the first thing you need to do is make sure you have advice of counsel because if you make a mistake, the agency that enforces fair housing is the Hawaii Civil Rights Commission. Correct. And also, legal aid will take action too. Okay, but the Hawaii Civil Rights Commission, I mean, they're the ones who come down and issue big fines, right? Big fines. Big time. Big time. And I've been told that they're not nice. No, they're not. It's not. They're not nice. And sometimes they can be heavy-handed and people grumble, and it's easy for a person who wants to make a claim, they just go down there and talk to somebody, and the next thing you know, you've got to investigate. You've got a letter in the mail saying, you know, John Doe has come into our office and alleged that you discriminated against him in violation of fair housing, and we want all your paperwork, and we want your firstborn child and, you know, everything else. And it's years. It's years of litigation that will bring you in for depositions. They want all your paperwork. Yeah. They'll even attend, I believe they'll even attend some of your board meetings. Yeah, I heard, you know, it can be really scary. And so for those of you out there, and when somebody makes a request for reasonable accommodation, don't fool around. Like I said, you know, contact, you know, you're a managing agent. If the managing agent doesn't know how to handle it, you contact the Association's General Counsel because this is serious stuff, okay? So, fair housing, it basically says that if you're the owner of a building, and in this case it's condominium, so we're talking about the board of directors, and somebody lives in the unit, doesn't have to be an owner, it's a resident who is disabled, and they want to make, and when they ask for a reasonable accommodation, this means that they want to make a request that kind of goes against the norm, the existing rules. And like if it's construction, somebody in a wheelchair may need to widen the doorway, so they have to widen the doorways and replace the doors, or you know, if they have mobility problems made, they want to put handles on the wall, so a grips, right, so that they can, and you know, a lot of these, I mean, if it's inside the unit, you only have to get the owner's consent, but if it's outside like a door, right, you would have to get the board's consent, and going back to the wheelchair example, let's say you want to put a ramp, right, and the ramp, because sometimes buildings have stairs, short stairs, and so yes, you can put in a ramp, but if you're the person making the request, fair housing says you pay for it. Correct, you bear the cost. You bear the cost of putting in the ramp, once you make the request, and if you can, you know, meet the tests about, you know, being disabled, and you can show that you have mobility problems, and you need that ramp, they cannot refuse you, you then have to go out and get an engineer, or whatever, get the proper permits, and you have to pay to put in this ramp, and the association can make you pay to remove it when you leave, right, and for all of those things, you know, you need to write a letter to the board, and that request, the letter to the board, is the request for reasonable accommodation, you're basically saying I'm disabled, I need for the board to give me permission to make a change to my unit, or to the building, you know, so that I can enjoy my stay here, just like somebody else who isn't disabled, right, and you know, we're hearing some really strange things about people with allergies, right, people with allergies, and so that means that they might be allergic to the cleaning stuff that the housekeeping people use. Cleaning, cutting grass, that's right, cutting grass, and you know, so this raises all kinds of problems, because it's like, well, what are we supposed to do now, you know, and it's not like you can, you can say, oh well, you know, you have to go and get some allergy medicine or something, I mean, that's right away, that's a violation, because you're not allowing them, you know, to kind of modify the rules, and they're coming to you and saying I'm disabled, you got to change your rules, which means you got to change the way you do housekeeping, maybe by non-hypoallergenic products, or at least products that don't set off the allergies that this resident has. Do it, try to use that detergent or whatever, maybe the person's always known to be at work, so it's not when they're occupying the unit and then you're trying to clean with the stuff that aggravates allergies, or even like asthma, some of it can activate the asthma. And so, you know, there's a whole gamut of things that a person can request, and you know, and some, you know, board members, you know, who may not know, be aware of the law, or may not be sensitive, I mean, they're, you know, they're likely to just try to brush it off and say, well, you know, you need to go and get some whatever allergy medicine or, you know, or, you know, we don't want you to put up a ramp because it's going to be ugly. You know, they can't, you know, what you guys who are listening to this have to understand is you can't do that. If the person is disabled and they come to the board, and they say, because of my disability, I need a ramp. And if they're willing to pay for it, and they go out and get the permits, I mean, there's not a whole lot you can do, but you know, you need to grant it. And they do have to pay for it. So it's not like it's going to cost the association money. And I can remember one, one incident, this is a townhouse project, and you couldn't get a ramp up they were in the second floor unit, they couldn't get the ramp up the stairs. It would have to because of the building code, it would literally have to go around the building in a circle to meet the cold requirements. And so what happened is they took the lanai, they took and opened up the lanai. Because what happened is the resident who'd been living there for like 20 years, she had some kind of a, I don't know what kind of illness it was, but they had to amputate, you know, a portion of her leg. And her other leg was somehow, you know, affected so she couldn't walk. And she couldn't even stand. So she was in a wheelchair. And so basically, she wanted to live in this second story townhouse. The only way she could do it is if they could get a ramp from the lanai. And so, and what happened is, you know, with with townhouses, they have courtyards, right? So there's this ramp that came into the courtyard. And some of the, you know, the there, I think it was maybe four, eight, right. And then there's a courtyard, right? And everybody kind of used it, you know, for playground, playground. And so there was some pushback. But that wasn't, you know, there wasn't a whole lot. And it wasn't, I don't think it was that intrusive. There was on the second floor and they made one zig and then one zag, you know, so so that it would take the whole car. Yeah, that's right. So so that the wheelchair could go. But that was the only way she could live in her unit, stay in her unit. And and I think she was able to live like that for maybe three years. And then when she passed, you know, her family tore down. That was one of the more extreme that is that is. Yeah, that's really, really extreme. Right. And and we had to tell the people, I mean, it did kind of break up their playground. It wasn't like they lost, you know, square foot I mean, they could still put their swing set and this sand box. You know, they just had to work around. Really, it's compassion on everybody's part. And you know, they have to understand that as the so and it wasn't their land. It was common area. The courtyard is common area. The fact that the association allowed them to have swing sets and a sandbox and stuff. I mean, it was an accommodation to them as well. So you know, when, when, when, you know, they were told, okay, the only way, you know, we can put in this, you know, ramp. And this is the only way she could live in the unit. And it wasn't and it wasn't as if, you know, she was a new person or a renter. She was a 20 year owner who got sick, you know, and, and, and all of these things and these things happen. And so I guess, you know, what, you know, we need to tell people who live in condominiums is you have to be flexible. You have to be sensitive. You have to understand that this is a federal law with really big consequences that could, you know, affect the association big time, as far as fines, and lawyers, and all that bad stuff that goes with, yeah, you know, litigation, and you're up against the federal government. So you know, you really need to make sure that you understand the law. And when somebody comes in with something called a request for accommodation, the word reasonable accommodations, the buzzword for fair housing, right? Right? If you hear that, you hear that, and you need to, you know, quick, call your lawyer, call the managing agent, say, Okay, what do I do? And, and listen and follow their instructions, right? Correct. Okay, well, we're getting into the our break time. And so we're going to take a one minute break and then we're going to come back and we're going to be talking about the other big thing about reasonable accommodations, that's people with pets, or people who want to live in condominiums that don't allow pets, but they have pets. And so they have to ask for reasonable accommodation. If the building is a no pet building, but we'll discuss that when we get back to our break. Thanks to our think tech underwriters and grand tours, the Atherton Family Foundation, Carol Mon Lee and the Friends of ThinkTech, the Center for Microbial Oceanography Research and Education, collateral analytics, the Cook Foundation, Dwayne Carisu, the Hawaii Community Foundation, the Hawaii Council of Associations of Abarbon Owners, Hawaii Energy, the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum, Hawaiian Electric Company, Integrated Security Technologies, Gail and Ho of BAE Systems, Kamehameha Schools, MW Group, the Shidler Family Foundation, the Sydney Stern Memorial Trust, Volo Foundation, Eureko J. Sugimura. Thanks so much to you all. Welcome back to Condo Insider. My name is Jane Sugimura. And my guest today is really Nintendo. And we're talking about requests for reasonable accommodations. And how do you deal with them? And the short answer is, you treat them very seriously. You take them very seriously, and you don't try to slough them off, or try to ignore them. They don't go away. And the consequences are huge if you violate their housing. Correct. You pay attention to those. Right. So in the first part of the show, we were talking about different types of requests for reasonable accommodation that dealt with changes to the unit, to the building, or if the building uses chemicals that trigger allergies in people. But the one, I guess, contentious area is pets. Everybody, well, first of all, everybody knows about service animals. And service animals are allowed everywhere. Okay. And that means if you have a no pets policy, the federal law, under fair housing says you must allow a service animal. And service animals, unfortunately, are not registered by federally, or in the state of Hawaii, right? Right. There's no registry system at all. So if you see a dog with a jacket, or, you know, something that says, you know, service animal, I mean, they can get them on the internet, right? Correct. That doesn't make them a service animal. Right. Right. And by definition, the service animal is some is an animal, and it doesn't have to be a dog. It can be a miniature horse, I believe. Yes. But, you know, they are animals that are trained specially to assist a person with a disability. And the only question, and because they're not certified, you can't ask them for certification or proof that they are service animals because there is no such certification or paper proof, or you can't go on the internet and find them registered anywhere. There's no registry system at all. No, nowhere. No. And all you can ask is, what does a dog do? Right. What tasks does he perform? What tasks does he perform? You cannot ask about the disability. That's a no, no, that's a hippo violation. That's big time fine. So you cannot ask about the disability. You can only ask, what does a dog do? What tasks does a dog do? And you know, when it's obvious, like somebody who's blind, and uses a seeing eye dog, I mean, that is very obvious. But there are some, some medical situations that, you know, use service animals that you can't wear the disability is not obvious. And what is it? The soldiers who come back PTSD, right? I mean, they look normal. But because they have this syndrome, they have a dog, a service animal that's trained to deal with this syndrome. Right. They can kind of sense when that an episode is going to happen, we'll speak. Yeah. And then you have these dogs that help people who have mobility issues are usually large dogs. Or what is it this the miniature pony? Right, right. Some stand helps them stand. And so in those instances, it might not be obvious what the animal does to assist these people. But the only thing if you are an association, you, you, you can ask them what does your your dog do? Right, what tasks does he perform? And then there's after the service animal and service animals, I mean, that's a no brainer. If it's a service animal, they have to be allowed. You have some, you know, you ask for a reasonable accommodation. And if it's a service animal, so no brainer, they must be allowed. And with service animals, they're pretty much trained, you know, so that they're not going to pee in the hallway, and they're not going to be aggressive. And you know, they're always on a leash, right? They're not gonna be barking. Yeah, they don't bark. And so you know, so those animals, you know, it, you know, they don't seem to be a problem. The issue is, for people, and now I guess the term is emotional support animal, right? They these used to be the comfort animals, what else were they called therapy animals, therapy animals. Now they they're lumped together in a category called emotional support animals. What exactly is an emotional support animal? A pet, a pet. Of course, if you call a pet, they say, Oh, no, this is not a pet. It's an emotional support animal. So I'm thinking, okay, so what is an emotional support animal? I have many at home. But anyway, under fair housing, the association if a reason request for reasonable accommodation is made. And it and the request comes from a professional health care provider. The association really has no recourse but to say, Okay, I guess we got to let this person have the animal, right? But just remember though, whoever writes that that letter has to be licensed in the state, it has to be one of your, your physicians or doctors, it can't just be like, I've, I've seen some that were written by a dentist, one guy turned one in that was written by the OBGYN like really, you know, so it's got to be legitimate because they're going to the board is going to verify that that person actually wrote it and he and that you are his patients, right? And he has the authority to be able to do it. And some people I mean, what they do is, you know, they they want to they they decide they they want to get a pet. And so they go to their their their, you know, general GP, they've seen for 20 years. And they say, Oh, I doc, I need a letter. I need a letter from my association. You need to, you know, and you can get forms right from the humane society. And some associations even hand them out to people who want to make a request for a reasonable combination to have an animal. And, you know, so, you know, they come to the doctor and say, Oh, here, you know, just feel, you know, assigned this. And, you know, with that with no examination without even making a determination that the patient has a disability as required, you know, as defined by federal law, doctors will sign it and voila. And, you know, there's and this is what gets some associations really mad. Right? Because they figure, Okay, this is bogus. It's not like they really have a disability and they really need an animal. But we got to let them in because this professional signed the letter that says all the right things. Yes. And and and so you were talking about some letters and you have some examples of letters. Yes. Yes. And some of them, I mean, like, some of them will ask questions. What is the connection between your disability and the requested accommodation? And that's kind of like a direct no, no, because you're asking them what their disability is. And which is something you cannot ask. Right? That can only ask that. What task does the animal perform? Right? You cannot ask them any questions about their disability. Right? And that means that, you know, even if they show up, you know, at the board meeting, none of the directors can say, Well, tell us what your disability is. Correct. Tell us what function you can't perform. They can't do that. Right? That's right off the bat. That's a no, no, that's a violation you can hit for the big fight. But those are questions you cannot ask. Right? And also, like, if you ask the doctor to disclose information about the patient, that is also number one, you can't ask it. Number two, that's a hippo violation, you know, healthcare violation. Oh, it the doctors can't disclose that disability at all. Right? In other words, HIPAA basically says that that is private, whatever health condition you have. But you know, if this person is in a conversation, that person can, you know, talk about their disabilities, you know, add to an item. Because then it's the person disclosing. Right? If the board were to ask, and that's where HIPAA says no, you cannot ask. Right? Right. And if you ask, then it's a violation. And, you know, there are big fines involved. And these are forms that, and you know, those, you know, you guys who are listening, Humane Society I think has forms. I think the Humane Society forms are pretty much current. They don't ask questions like that. I mean, if you have a form that's been developed or that's being used by your association, you might want to have your general counsel check it out to make sure it's still current. Because, you know, fair housing is a law that keeps changing. And, you know, and some of these forms that are out there, you know, at least these two that we have, you know, don't seem to comply with the law. Yes, so all the condos need to make sure that they're in compliance with the correct fair housing laws in the language that they use in their forms. Right. And, you know, by using a form that, you know, asks questions, asks for information that you're not supposed to be asking for, can get you into big trouble. If they, you know, if the person, you know, wants to go to the Humane Society, not the Humane Society, the Civil Rights Commission, and complain about the association. So you really need to have those forms checked out. And, you know, while we're at it, there's talk that there's going to be some legislation in the next session. Why don't we talk about what the legislation is going to be all about. Okay, so part of it is to kind of crack down and really come down on the people that are, that are fraudulently writing the letters, that are really not authorized to write the letters. But they're only doing it because, like, if you're my patient, and you know, I've seen you for 20 years, you want a pet, and you come to me with a form, and I'm sure really, and I'll sign, where do I sign? I'll sign. But they have it under their medical license, they have an ethical duty. And there's ethical standards that they have to also comply with. So in some cases, writing that letter will be a violation of their code of ethics under their medical license. Right, because just, you know, in the form, what they're basically saying in the form is that if you were the resident, and I'm the doctor, the form basically says, Raylene Tennell is my patient. I'm the professional who's signing the letter, so I have to attest under oath that you are my patient, and that I've examined you, and that I have made a professional determination that you are suffering from a disability as defined by federal law. That means that I have looked at the federal law, and I know the definition of what a disability is, and you have it. Right, right. And so when I sign this letter, you know, when I sign this letter, I'm telling the whole world that I've done, that that number one, you're my patient, which you are. Number two, that I've examined you, which I haven't, and that I've, based on my examination, I found out, I've determined that you have a disability as defined by federal law, and I haven't done that, but yet I'm going to sign this paper. But if I'm by signing it and not doing all those things, I've violated my license so that somebody can complain against, and if I, you know, so it'd be the medical board. Right. And the medical board could have a hearing and decide, you know, you shouldn't be doing that, we're going to find you. And if you do it again, maybe we'll take away your license. Right. Those kinds of things, right? Right, right, right. And the whole purpose of this statute would be to make sure that the people who are making, signing the request for reasonable accommodations are complying with their professional and ethical obligations when they write these letters. Correct. Right. Really, really bringing, bringing, bringing the whole issue down to what's real, you know, and get rid of all the fake stuff. I mean, you know, people have to realize that when you go into a condo, the people that bought in there, bought into their, into the, into the building, for lots of reasons. Some of it was because it's pet friendly, not, not pet friendly because they don't like dogs or they don't like animals because they have allergies or they just some people just can't stand the barking. They don't want to deal with that like cats. You don't want to go by an apartment and it just reeks of cat litter, you know. So I really, truly believe that some people have to be, be aware that there's reasons why people bought into certain buildings because they don't like them. Yeah, they have to have respect for those people. And there are organizations in town, including the Humane Society, that have pet friendly buildings. They even show up on the internet. Right. Pet friendly buildings. You want to, you have a pet, you want to live in a condo, live in those condos. Right. Right. Right. Instead of picking a condo that has a no pets policy and then then then you're you're going counter, you know, to the people who live there. And even if the board gives you grant your request for reasonable accommodation, all condos have rules. And if your pet, if you don't clean up after them, if you don't let put them on a leash, if they bark, if they create a nuisance, they can ask you to remove the animal. Yeah, because most of the buildings that were typically no pet buildings, but now because of the situation, they have, they've had to allow the pets, they are now constantly picking up dog poop where they never had a problem before, you know. So some people that want to bring in these pets, I mean, you guys are creating the part of the problem, you know, because you're not even picking up after your own, your own dogs. And I know we could go on and on and on, but we've run out of time. And so, so, so we're going to have to, we will, I'm sure we're going to come back and revisit this during the legislative session where that bill goes through. And we'll let you guys know what the bill number is so that you can call in and, and, and offer your support. But anyway, thank you for joining us for this episode of Kondo Insider. And please tune in next week for another exciting and informative episode of Kondo Insider about Kondo living. Thank you and mahalo.