 I'm your host Matt. I'm Tyler. Welcome, everybody, to the Linuxcast. We talk about Linuxy things. It's going to be an amazing episode, I'm sure, because all of our episodes are amazing. I mean, seriously, we have never had a bad episode before. Last one kind of sucked, but what are you going to say? Yeah. Anyways, this is the Linuxcast. We talk about Linuxy things, which there was some housekeeping that I needed to take care of beforehand. But the stream has just totally messed my entire brain up. Oh, I am looking. Somebody asked me if we could start streaming to Twitch. I attempted it today. It didn't go well, because I'm obviously not going to abandon YouTube for Twitch, so I was going to try it to both at the same time. The process didn't work out well at all because I was using a service that is shit. So I will try again next week if I can find a different way to do it, but we'll see how that goes. But anyways, that obviously is the housekeeping. So before we jump into the main topic for the day, as we usually do, we're going to be going over the things that we've done this week in open source. So Tyler, you first, please. Mine's kind of easy this week, because I've been, I have been doing a lot, but improved my Hyperland configs, made them a little bit more modular, started using Ly, so I've got an actual display manager or login manager on my system. I also have a running C matrix, so it looks nice. So you like literally boot into my system and you get, you know, like the matrix style stuff coming down in a login screen. So it looks, it looks nice. It's still in the terminal. It's very lightweight. I like it. Trying to think, is there anything else in my system that I've been doing? Not really. I've done other stuff to my system, like configuring fonts and stuff, but nothing too big. I've updated my .files and also I've launched a new website, which it's the same. Like if you go to my website, zany.org, it's still the same like domain, but the website I'm now using Hugo is much better. Like Hugo is very, very nice. I was putting it, putting off trying out Hugo and stuff because I was wanting to either do something that was pure HTML, CSS, or maybe something that was 3JS, more, you know, visual and like 3D, but I decided I'd go ahead and give Hugo a shot and try it out since I hadn't. And that was a really good decision. Very freakin' good. I understand why most people use it now. It is extremely easy and markdown's great. So yeah, pretty much all I've been up to this week. I agree with you that things like Hugo are pretty awesome. I've been using 11D because that's what you're set up for me. Cause he does all the work for me, apparently. Steve, what you been up to this week? What? Okay. No, no, no, no, no, no. The other Steve. Can we talk about it? Yeah, yeah. The other Steve. The one next to you. The one the other guy. It's your turn. Come on. Okay, you're back. Okay, I'll do it all for you. Okay, so what he has been up to is, well, for the sake of repeating myself, still doing the Docker container on my system, but this time not exactly on my system. Now I have a VPS because Kudu, being Kudu, he got me into getting a VPS, a cheap one, a dollar a month kind of cheap one. I get 512 megabytes of RAM, one CPU and 15 gigs of storage. Okay, since I'm hosting my own Voltwarden or Bitwarden instance on there and my thingy of the week is hosted there. I'm not gonna say what it is right now. I'll say it when we get to the nuggies of the week. Because spoilers. So, but Docker containers, Docker containers. I can't stop. I can't stop. It's like, the more you give me the more I want. And I've been working on my private website thanks to the kid over here, Mr. Zany, using Hugo, which I second what he says is pretty damn easy on to live on my system. It's pretty damn easy until you hit a snag where you're using a theme that doesn't have responsive images or centering the concept of centering or responsiveness. If you use a theme like that, you're gonna get yourself in a deep hole. So I recommend get yourself a theme that supports all that out of the box rather than putting in all the work yourself. But other than that, it's pretty easy. It's just Markdown file. You just create a folder called post and you just for each post, create a folder with a Markdown file. That's it. That's all Hugo is a bunch of Markdown files. Just select the right theme from the beginning, make your life easier than the one I chose. But I've been doing that and I've been finalizing work on Zero Linux for this month at the Christmas edition. But other than that, no, that's it. Cool. Would have been hilarious is when I interrupted you about a minute ago if you said, shut up, man. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. So if you said, shut up, man. I'm talking. That'd have been funny. I don't say that. You're the boss. I don't say shut up to my boss. I don't say bad words to him. I would have laughed. It would have been hilarious. Anyways, I respect my boss. I respect my boss. Well, you know, that's a good trade, especially if you want to get hired. Something that might look for. All right. So I've been doing something stupid. I have been using GNOME for four days. So I started a challenge. I'm very keen on challenging myself to do things that I don't want to do. And I decided that I was going to spend some time in GNOME. Now, I've used GNOME, obviously, in the past many times and I even did a 30-day review of it about two years ago. And I decided I was going to spend some serious time at this time with six months in it. Good God, what was I thinking? Oh God, it's so bad. So bad. I'm being dramatic, obviously. It's usable, but man, you have to just fly through the extensions to get it to actually be usable, at least for me. I know a lot of people use vanilla. I don't understand those people. They can use it. I've seen people do it. Some people swear by vanilla. They just got the keybindings down and it works for them. They're just happy with the way GNOME made it, but I can't do it. There's so many things that I just don't like the way it works out of the box so I installed the extensions and I'm not looking to the next GNOME update because I'm assuming that everything is going to break and it's just going to be horrible and I'm going to cry and all that stuff. So it's going to be, you know, it has been an experience. And one other thing I will say is that I've done some posts on Macedon and on Discord and as defensive as the NixOS and the Emacs guys are about the things that they love, the GNOME guys are way outshining them. They are very, very defensive about GNOME. If you say one negative thing, ooh boy, you just murdered their baby. It's bad. I feel the same way about Hyperland, the way you feel about GNOME. But hey, I'm going to give it a shot just to make a video with our boy, Tyler, here. Wait, hold on. I was smiling and thinking about this for a second. I'm like, good, Josh, or Josh, Matt is talking about GNOME, checking out GNOME. You know, you're checking out Hyperland. This is great. And then it hit me in my brain. I was like, wait, I don't like KDE. Am I going to start checking out KDE here soon? Oh, no. So what we should do is everyone has a challenge to use the thing that they don't like so that they can empathize with the people who do like it. That's the challenge. You know, use something that's... The challenge, I already begun in my VM. I have Hyperland with Zany's config inside of VM, but don't do that. On hard word, doesn't count. Yeah, no. Well, also, just so we're clear too for anybody who is going to check out my config so it wants to do inside of VM. I didn't know this, but inside of VMs, I don't know what it is, Hyperland, or maybe my specific config for it. It does not play nice. Like at all. It's not only your config, it's Hyperland. It's Hyperland. It doesn't work nice inside VMs. I have somebody else's config that you can run from a minimal arch install. It will install Hyperland. It will do everything for you, as soon as you get into Hyperland, try to open a terminal. It flickers and it's not there. Everything flickers. It's slow as heck. Don't do that in a VM, unless you're doing pass-through, GPU pass-through, but if you're not, don't try Hyperland inside of VM. Wayland... Wayland compositors in VMs don't work very well in my experience. None of them do. Just don't. Even KD seemed to work okay with Wayland and VM. Those are desktop environments. They have a whole bunch of stuff that makes magic happen. Also, I should turn on the bugs. KD, looking at you. Anyways, let's go ahead and jump into the main topic. This week's topic came from Mr. Tyler. So, Tyler, why don't you broaden our minds and our horizons with the topic for this week? I don't know where that came from. I was gonna be grand and extravagant, but it sounded good. I liked it. So, I guess we can start it off with... The question that I initially asked was when it comes to documentation, is documentation overall getting better? But the conversation can definitely be had... Even if that's the question, the conversation of the importance of documentation and good manuals, good... Just in period, good documentation, no matter how you're doing it. It's one that's... I don't know if it's not talked about enough in Linux, but it's one that's highly overlooked in a lot of places. The value of having good documentation, it's really freaking hard to beat. Especially if you want to get people onboarded onto your project. So, I guess since it is my topic, I'd like to have you guys just pick it up and start talking. Like, what do you got to say? ArchWiki. First thing that comes to mind when you say documentation, the ArchWiki says most of us are on Arch. Well, except Boss here. Boss man here. Open Suzer for the win. Sorry. Yep. No, but seriously speaking, the ArchWiki is one of the most amazing documentation wikis out there, but my beef with it is documentation should be more like the Hyperland documentation because the Hyperland documentation, Vox3 and company have done such a great job and it's... The way it's laid out is more humanly readable by any average Joe, whereas the ArchWiki is more for the... I know what I'm reading. I understand what I'm reading. No, the average Joe is going to go like... It's a lot of text. It's a lot of code. It's a lot of commands. But what do they do? I don't know. They just tell me to run the code. I will run it. Oh, my system is broken. Oh, shit. Whereas the Hyperland, they tell you, run this command. If it goes wrong, then do this. In the Hyperland documentation, they cover issues that might arise by doing every single thing. Whereas in the ArchWiki, they tell you to run something. If it breaks, you're on your own. You backtrack. You should be knowledgeable enough to backtrack, to undo. The ArchWiki expects you before you come in. Expects you to know things before you come into their wiki. To have a basic Linux knowledge before you come in. With the Hyperland thing, I don't feel that you need to have a lot of basic knowledge because it's not very technical. It's written by humans or human. That's how I feel. Do you think that that's because Hyperland's a Weyland compositor and Arch is a distribution? That they're just kind of two different things? Or do you think it's because the ArchWiki is a wiki and the Hyperland stuff is not... That's just a series of website pages that aren't really... According to a table of contents. I don't know what Steve's opinion on that question would be. But my point would be, I don't think it has any... I don't know that the ArchWiki is even comparable to the Hyperland wiki only because the ArchWiki, the reason they are a little bit different than the Gen2 wiki is the ArchWiki expects you to have read their documentation on their methodology and how the system is built or designed to function. The Hyperland wiki has the advantage of... They don't have to explain to you how Hyperland works because for nothing in that documentation, you interacting with Hyperland, you need to change config options. You don't need to know how those configs work behind the scenes to stop problems happening elsewhere. Arch, on the other hand, does have that problem because you could follow their documentation perfectly fine, but if you have, let's just say, another program installed, it could change things, cause problems. I think that's where the Gen2 wiki solves a lot of that problem. The Gen2 wiki is very different than the ArchWiki. The Gen2 wiki expects you to know absolutely nothing before you read... If you go to the Hyperland Gen2 wiki documentation, it's actually for Gen2 better than the Hyperland documentation because it explains to you what Hyperland is, how to install it, configure it, all the things that you need to make sure are going to be there for pretty much any system that's going to run Hyperland on Gen2, where Arch... I don't think Arch has a Hyperland page that's even comparable to something like this at all, but if they did, most likely the way that they would go about it is the same way that they do most of their wikis where you should have a base knowledge of Arch before you read this page. I'm sorry. Tyler, you said exactly what I meant. Darth Vader in the chat says, that's because Gen2 users don't have issues. I couldn't not laugh. So we got another Josh in the room. Josh is out there, man. He should have a correction. We have all the issues. Sorry, that was very funny. Let's talk... When we talk about the golden examples of documentation in the Linux world, we hold up three pillars. We have the Arch wiki, the Gen2 wiki, and the Linux from scratch documentation. We have those three things that are the pillars of... When people think great documentation, that's what they think of. So in the chat, we have people arguing about Arch versus Gen2, which I find absolutely hilarious. But what do you guys think when it comes to that? Do you think that... Let's talk first a little bit about which one you think is better. Because they all do things in a slightly different way. LFS and Gen2 are similar where they have a path that you follow, that you go through, especially during the installation part of it, whereas Arch just feels like it's... It's like Wikipedia. It doesn't have a start page. It has an installation page, but then once you click through it, you can end up in any number of places like a maze. So what do you guys think is better? Yeah, branches off infinitely. Yeah, you can end up... I mean, literal rabbit holes on the Arch wiki. I'm sure you can do the same on the others, but it doesn't... The Gen2 wiki, specifically, I've never done LFS, so I don't know for sure, but the Gen2 wiki has always felt like, you know... Literally, there's even forward and next buttons on the bottom of each page, right? If you're done with this page, you go to the next page. The Arch wiki is not really like that, right? LFS, just so you know, is very similar, if not the extreme of that. Gen2 has the next pages and leads you on. The LFS book is literally a book that if you skip around in, you're gonna have problems. It is straightforward. You only move linearly through it. Gen2, they guide you linearly, but you can bounce around and do whatever you want, and there won't be problems. In most cases. No, no. Gen2 users don't have issues. Gen2 users don't have issues. What are you talking about, man? Well, Josh did say something that is pretty true with Gen2. Like, most of your problems will be down to you. Like, it's not really a problem with Gen2. It's a problem with something you're doing. I mean, come on. Let's be honest. All Linux problems are user problems for the most part. Most of the time. As you're using KDE in which case, it's definitely a KDE problem. I just love pissing the KDE guys off. It's just become a hobby for me. I'm pretty sure Nicolo hates me. I'm pretty sure at this point. I saw Matt, or Steve's face, and she was like... KDE is just fine. GNOME for the win. There you go. Matt, stop preaching your love affair. Yes. Anyways, let me talk about this for a second. I don't know if you guys... How many people actually knew that Ubuntu actually has official documentation? I didn't even actually know that they had official documentation that you could download and look at in PDF form. It's hilarious. I didn't know it exists. I've never been in an Ubuntu user. I was surprised. Here's the thing. I wonder how many people are like me and how many people are like you guys. I didn't know. Because Ubuntu is the most popular distro, they have a big problem in that people don't search out their documentation. At least their documentation isn't surfaced in SEO. Instead, when you hunt for a problem for Ubuntu, you're going to get some random Joe Smo's blog to the solution. Probably from like 14.04 or 16.08 or 16.10 or whatever. That's where the SEO is going to point you in. You're going to go searching through blogs and maybe you'll find a help Ubuntu article or something like that. That's the way that... But when you search for a problem on Arch, you're probably going to get linked directly top with the Arch Wiki. If you search for a problem on Arch, the Arch Wiki is going to be the number one result whereas Ubuntu, because it's so popular and so many people are out there writing articles about how to do things and how to fix problems, that stuff kind of buries the Ubuntu documentation to the point where if you're like me, you didn't even know it existed. So I think that my question is this, do you guys think that third-party documentation is an issue, specifically when it comes to Ubuntu, but do you think that community contribution in the form of blog posts can be helpful, even though they age fast? To answer that question, I would have to go back to the Arch Wiki because I just discovered recently, thanks to Antis, an Arch maintainer or package maintainer, I discovered that the Arch Wiki was written by the community for the community. Anyone can contribute to it and that's why it's so big. Anyone can contribute to it. So when you say third-party and community, people can contribute. Yes, I would prefer it, but only if it was in human language, not in Arch Wiki language. Well, I mean, with the Arch Wiki, you have some form of control. I'm sure there's probably moderators or whatever there that go through it, right? I'm more talking about the random mats on the internet who are out there writing how-to articles on Ubuntu 20.04. But they require moderation, though still require moderation because it could be a guy you're writing according to your knowledge, but maybe your knowledge is limited and you're saying something wrong. You might be steering people to the wrong direction. Right, but they may require moderation, but they don't get it. You can post whatever you want on the internet and then if you're really good at SEO, that thing floats to the top and that's what people click on and you may be leading people. Yeah, that could be a problem. I can see that this can be a problem because maybe the guide you posted is what works for you but might not work for somebody else. And if it's not moderated and it makes its way to the top, that person is going to follow it and it's going to break his system and oh boy, that will be a problem. Even a bigger issue with that is as somebody who knew that Ubuntu had documentation, I have never once needed to download it or use it because even though it may exist, Ubuntu is so synonymous now that the documentation for Ubuntu is quite literally Google's results. That's like, sure, there might be documentation out there but for most people, you're going to find the information that you need easily accessible anywhere else other than the documentation because the documentation is not... I mean, correct me if I'm wrong but Matt, since you brought this up, do you know, does Ubuntu still... Do they only provide their documentation as PDFs? No, there's an HTML page as well. But it's literally just the PDF in HTML form. It's like they took the PDF and then pan docked it out into HTML. Oh, gotcha. It's basically the same for every version. It looks like I'm sure they updated it a little bit but obviously also they had this really... I don't know if I can have this set up so that I can show you guys but not you guys, but at least on the stream, they had this really weird background that's about matrix or something like that where you scroll it like... seizure alert at you. So that's really bad design but I just... So the reason why I brought up the Ubuntu thing is because the other day I was searching for something I don't remember what it was but I searched for a problem on Google that had to do something with GNOME or a GTK application. I don't remember really what it was but it had to do with something that Ubuntu also used and the top result was for someone who had the solution but it was for 1204 which by the way is 11 years ago and my biggest issue with that whole solution that people seem to kind of gravitate towards for Ubuntu is that because Ubuntu has been around for so long and has been popular for so long a lot of the solutions for the things that you might still have problems with are for really old versions and sometimes that stuff still works fine a lot of things don't change that often but sometimes you do a solution for 1204 on 2004 and you're in trouble so when I think of... because that's the thing that we should talk to bring us back around to the main topic instead of just focusing on Ubuntu is that when people have a problem they don't... like if you're brand new to Linux but for whatever reason you decide you're going to start on Arch you don't know... maybe you don't know that ArchWiki exists so what do you do? you do the same thing you do with everything you go to Google and you expect Google to point you into the right direction and I mean you guys probably both provide tech support for other people who aren't as technically you know, adept as you guys you probably know that when they Google something that they don't know what do they do? they click on the first result so if the first result isn't the thing that the Linux community would like them to be pointing towards the official documentation then there could be some issues and that's the reason why I brought up the Ubuntu thing is because whereas with Arch you usually get the ArchWiki right to begin with on Ubuntu you don't but true and he killed the chat that's awesome so Tyler let me ask you this question let's see if I can fix this why did you think that documentation is getting better? well I wouldn't say I think documentation is getting better just like I don't really think that like Gen2's documentation is getting better Arch's documentation is getting better and I'm not saying that in a bad way I don't think they need to get better they are I mean there's a reason why most people refer to the Arch or Gen2 Wikis they're really good documentation but since I can switch over my screen to my desktop I can load up and go to this website here so one of the things that made me interested in talking about this is this kind of documentation over here so this is the theme that I'm using for my website and it genuinely does have some of the best documentation I've seen in a while for one documentation like this is getting more prevalent for a lot of projects where they have a good table of contents the documentation is well laid out it's themed well so you can delineate what's code, what's not links, all this stuff and I'm seeing projects and documentation related to projects starting to get better at formatting and their readability of them and for me I think smaller projects with this kind of work behind them is getting more prevalent a lot of people are not just overlooking documentation anymore and so I wanted to talk about it and see mainly at least at one point have you guys started to notice that these smaller projects that you use I'm trying to think of good examples but things like TOEFI your little program launcher or your notification center some small aspect of your system those smaller projects to me it seems like a lot of them are starting to actually get documentation that you would normally see with projects that have a team behind them not just one guy so that's kind of what sparked this whole conversation Do you think it's because it's easier than ever before to have you no longer have to pay for a VPS or anything to have a website you can just use GitLab pages or GitHub pages also I don't know how long these features have existed but both GitHub and GitLab have wiki systems that you can actually use as your documentation system if that's what you want to do you don't have to host it yourself and all that stuff is just done through Markdown so I wonder if the reason why it seems like things are getting a little bit better even for the smaller teams is because it's easier to host than it was before whereas before a lot of people like and I'm going to bring this up with love because I love man pages like man pages are great but if you've ever went spulunking through man pages the variation on quality of man pages is enormous so some like if you go to the VIM man page it's fantastic you can spend days and days reading it whereas you know the man page for BSPWM it's okay it's not as good you know so that was kind of like the past whereas like now it feels like it's easier to put that kind of stuff online because you don't have to worry about you know web design you can use Hugo or you can use 11D or whatever if you want to have like an actual website it's really easy to do maybe that's one of the reasons why also I think that there's like a element of shame of not having good documentation whereas before it was like and we don't have time for documentation and because we have development work to do now nowadays if you don't have good documentation there's kind of a a community shame there that you know kind of forces you to at least have something although it doesn't seem to affect the suckless guys any just put it out there those guys don't give a fuck they don't give a fuck will you say Steve? well I would yeah I just wanted to chime in by saying that small group documentations are easy because as you said it's easier to host but number two if the project is small enough yeah definitely the documentation is going to be great and easy to follow and if the project is big still is going to be easy to follow because it's written by a couple of people and especially if the project is not very complex those kind of small group documentations are going to be awesome to follow like that and I'm going to let you out of your prison Zany yes the Hugo documentation is one of the best I've seen out there because it's by a by a small group and the fact that they have each theme has its own documentation built into the preview yeah that is amazing like you go to preview the theme the documentation on how the theme works is in there same for WordPress themes WordPress themes have the documentation in the preview so I prefer small team document based documentations because they're talking and I think it's because they know the type of people who are going to read their documentation but they are very it's like asking chat GPT to talk to me like I'm a 12 year old well I think it's mainly just because I mean you don't you don't have nearly as much to go through so you can explain little aspects better but even then like one team like small like pet projects essentially are have really great documentation well I mean not all of them but it seems like the majority of them are started I'm trying to think SWW there you go that's a good one I've just recently started using that the documentation on that is phenomenal and as far as I know it's made by just one dude like you know messing around making a wallpaper setter very good I think that part of it is that a lot of the because a lot of the stuff that's been created in the last few years when they created it they started the documentation as they were developing it right so we started the beginning because it's a lot easier to create your documentation as you're developing something and then you know edit it as you go through then code something develop something push it to everybody and then go back and do the documentation because that really seems like more of a chore than just doing it bit by bit as you go along I think that a lot of developers these days have gotten into the habit of doing it right from the beginning like you know that's one of the first things they do they create their GitHub project and they get you know they create their base C project or whatever they're going to do and they also create a read me right there along with it and that's their basis for the beginning of their documentation and they just kind of branch off from there I think it makes it much easier if any guys got to remember that I don't really know this for a fact but it feels like in the past it was more of a do it afterwards like the documentation was always last on the list because it was the least it was their last priority whereas now it just kind of something that happens as they go along and again it's not everybody but some of them and there's another type of documentation that that Zaini didn't mention or anybody thought of but the guided documentation the interactive type of documentation where they if you download a package for example you run the package you run the app and the documentation is a guide with bubbles it could be either bubbles or a video that starts up when you start the app or those kind of things well actually you brought up a good point because I think that's going to get much more popular over the next few years like having programs that have like maybe it's not like when you first launched the binary but because I feel like that could get annoying because you could just be reinstalling it on a new system and you don't want to go through a tutorial again or have to skip it or any of that BS I think probably the best way of going about it and will probably get very popular is things like you know how VIM has its VIM tutor like programs like that having their tutorial like documentation where they walk you through the program and the program functions differently than it normally would to walk you through everything like I think that's going to be like that's going to get very popular and it's probably the best way of going about doing it because you're not just like it's not just a resource for someone to go back to and learn how to use it it's literally a tutorial and you're guiding people through it that's definitely better of course and there's another reason that this will become better in the future because the more we go the more time passes the less people have the attention span to read the entire documentation like the longer the the guide or the wiki the less people want to read let me ask you let me ask you guys a question just real quick unless you're like an uber nerd like us do you know anybody who's just like a normal person who reads all of the documentation let's say it's like you buy a cabinet from IKEA you don't go through the entire documentation you just look for the instructions that you absolutely have to have and usually only half of those and then when you have inevitably either lose a screw or you put it together wrong then you go back and find where you missed a spot but for most people when they search for something when they need documentation it's because they have a specific problem so they're just looking for that one problem so reading all the documentation I was just curious because I've read the entire zipper man page from top to bottom but I'm a fucking nerd I had so much fun reading the zipper documentation it was fantastic it was an evening I was bored I read all of it it was wonderful driest reading you'll ever see reading that is about as slow as zipper itself but that was just a dig at my beloved zipper anyways you know I'm a nerd most people don't do that but let me there was something I was going to ask but now I've completely lost it it's just yeah I lost where I was going I'm going to say this although I keep telling users to go RTFM I used to I don't anymore because this is part of the things I was doing wrong and I'm working on rectifying that but the I keep telling people to RTFM used to tell people to RTFM I haven't read the ArchWiki ever because yeah I've never read the ArchWiki every time I go to find a solution because because of the fact I used to tell people to RTFM I was like I need to RTFM myself I should practice what you preach so I tried to practice what I preach as soon as I saw all the technical jargon and techno babble and whatever I was like uh oh no although I'm a distro maintainer not a developer I'm not a developer I'm a distro maintainer so although I'm a distro maintainer I don't understand everything and the ArchWiki makes things look so hard that to me I consider it the type of wiki that scares people off more than it grabs people's attention you know I think Steve should install Gen2 well no because if you're scared of the ArchWiki the Gen2 wiki will eat you up and spit you out the reason why I say that actually it was funny but beyond that the Gen2 wiki does a much better job of explaining why you're doing things as long as you don't skip from code box to code box it does a good job of telling you exactly what you're doing now it doesn't mean you can go into it your grandmine isn't going to go in there and do it but you should be able to do from a go ahead I think the sentiment that he's expressing is more of there's a lot of technical jargon in there and that is true like in the ArchWiki that's true the Gen2 wiki that is also true and that sentiment I don't disagree with because that is genuinely speaking I understand that's the reason why most people don't read the ArchWiki Gen2 wiki whatever because you load it up you get this wiki that walks you through something but it mentions five different programs or pieces of software that you don't know what do or like a good example would be linking to or mentioning pipe wire without a link to the page on pipe wire because it assumes you're already doing something with an audio program you probably know what pulse and pipe wire is whatever it doesn't link to it you have no freaking clue what pipe wire is then it mentions down a little bit lower that you need like RT kit or something like that for whatever like you know just by glancing over and reading the page you've already read three or four terms you don't know what are and on top of that it's guiding you through something that you don't know how to do so you're like well I've got to go learn what these four things are so I can go with this guide I don't have time to learn all four of these things like I get the mentality of the sentiment behind it but really in all honesty like most of the time like with all of those with all that technical jargon in there it's not really a problem but that's an inherent problem with all documentation to some degree don't you think that it makes some assumptions based on what your prior knowledge is going to be now because there's I can't think of a single example of any documentation that doesn't make some assumptions that you know something along the line so like when you guys brought up the hyperland documentation earlier hyperland makes the assumption that you know that hyperland is a window manager and they call it a compositor whatever you know they make the assumption that you know why you would want to see the documentation in the first place and I'm sure that there are other technical assumptions that they also make somewhere along the line because every every piece of documentation makes some kind of assumptions now we can we can say that things like the gentoo wiki like the arch wiki take that those assumptions to a worst degree than they need to but we also here's gonna be something funny both gentoo and arch and I'm sure if there's enough people out there Linux from scratch and like basically any distro they all have their clubs they're basically like a more tame version of the suckless guys you know like on the suckless website they literally say this is not for noobs right both arch and gentoo have kind of similar attitudes although less blatant about it whereas you know they like the arch the arch pride like I use arch by the way guys they had the whole distribution has a pride that they are somewhat difficult to manage and maintain their distro they'd like to be complex they like to be like that in gentoo kind of the same way although I think gentoo is actually kind of less because they do a much better job of explaining it so as odd as it sounds gentoo feels at least from a documentation standpoint more noob friendly than arch does because arch makes a lot more assumptions I think than gentoo does doesn't mean that gentoo doesn't make assumptions about your prior knowledge they do but it doesn't feel as as rough going as the arch guys does so those assumptions the only problem with like I mean you are right but the only problem with recommending gentoo for like great documentation to people is the documentation is great it really is but there is a massive uphill battle with learning with learning portage and that's only because like the if you don't know this we're talking about gentoo the package manager so where you're going to install applications it's named portage portage you can do anything with portage like I'm pretty sure if you wanted to like make a cheeseburger with a toaster through portage there's some way of doing it you can't do that you can do anything you probably I wouldn't be surprised don't make a bet like that Josh is in the chat saying yeah you can do that you're right on that though is that there's some parts of gentoo that are there are just technical like unmasking it's like how are you going to unmask something if you don't first of all you have to know why they're masked what does masking even mean how do you unmask why is it saying all these why is everything that I want to install masked you know that's my experience with gentoo like man everything I install but why is it masked why can't I just install this like a normal fucking distribution I'm going back to open Suicide yeah I mean like that's the stuff that gets most people because like it's like it's not that gentoo or portage is like really hard to like do it's that gentoo is set up in a way like it's already a pretty advanced system for especially when it comes to the control you have over the system and then it puts protections to help you from unknowingly breaking your system like masking packages that are essentially in testing they're not they're not really known to be stable at all so they mask them and keep them back and then most applications that a lot of people use nowadays are masked in gentoo because they're not fully what you would consider stable so like it gets annoying like that's that's my thing right there I'm right with you on gentoo like once you go over to gentoo the wiki documentation great once you start using it you're like what can I just install one package without having to make a mask file or adding it come on there's one last thing that I want to talk about before we move on to the nuggies of the week so and this pains me guys I hate artificial intelligence with a fucking passion like with a thousand burning suns I hate it almost as much as I hate cryptocurrency but that's beside the point our AI apparently this time is here to stay and we have things like co-pilot and chat GPT and stuff like that what do you guys think the role just put on your predicting caps here for a second what do you think the role of AI is going to be when it comes to documentation in the future because I tell you man this is definitely you're definitely going to see some developer who doesn't want to do documentation they hate documentation and they're going to go to chat GPT and they're going to say here this is my project right documentation for me you know it's going to happen if it hasn't happened already what do you think it's going to be responsible for creating the worst documentation you've ever read bar none stop it's going to it's going to destroy the world I don't think it will destroy the world but it will definitely make it to where you're going to go with projects it's going to create a documentation on how to create the end of the world well you know what will end up happening is like these projects that use chat GPT to generate their documentation are going to be used as examples of why we pay people or have people in the community write documentation for us they're going to have like that that will they're going to have some it will happen yeah so many issues after that happens like immediately the issues on GitHub are just going to pile up on top and why like it says to do this one thing but your documentation says to do another thing it's just all wrong why is it wrong and then exactly there's going to be a scandal absolutely a scandal of some major project out there some major open source project that chose to do their documentation through chat GPT or whatever but didn't tell anybody that they did right and eventually they're going to have to admit that the reason why there's so many problems in their documentation is because they used AI and then there's going to be the whole thing because people are going to use it for documentation but not tell people that they did for documentation because there's no rules that you have to disclose that kind of thing what we're going to say Steve sorry but you just said they're not they're going to do it without telling anyone they did it well I am the first one to admit that I did use chat GPT to explain a guide I got from the ArchWiki I told it please explain what the ArchWiki means by that Judas he is there you've infiltrated us what is this I asked chat GPT to explain a guide I didn't understand on the ArchWiki I told it hey convert this as if you were taught it was meant written for a 12 year old only then did I understand what they meant I must be a 12 year old in a 40 year old body Steve is the problem so I'm the first one to admit this alright anything else you guys want to say on this before we move on to the last one the last section can I get my two minutes now or should we leave it to the end wait till after the nuggies of the week we'll give you your minutes jump into the nuggies of the week Tyler your nuggie of the week I was going to make it Hugo but nah let's make it something more interesting so I've been using sway and see as my notification I can just swap over here and load up a new tab so I don't look bad and this is my sway and see it's a really nice little notification center I can clear it off it's got like key bindings for loading up different stuff it's super easy to configure and use it's very very good I could not recommend my notification manager or center anybody sway and see it's really good it's very simple to config so yeah definitely check it out alright Steve what's your thinking of the week my thinking of the week as I alluded to at the beginning of the episode my thinking of the week is related to docker containers but it's a docker container that I fell in love with it's called Joplin you only run it's a not note taking app I cannot share my screen because it's gonna mess up the transforms because I don't have a virtual camera cannot have a virtual camera because I use droid cam both cannot exist cannot co-exist but anyway Joplin if you go to Joplin something the link is in the show notes so whatever Joplin is a note taking app that the docker container is the server side the app doesn't have a web UI so you run the server the docker container on your vps and then you access you synchronize from all devices your computers, your cell phones, your tablets whatever it may be but having full control over the server where you're synchronizing your notes gives me a godlike feeling Steve discovered docker containers and all of a sudden his nerdom went from here all the way up to here thank kudu for that thank kudu and you for that both of you guys man, kubernetes is freaking awesome let me discover it first but Joplin is so amazing it supports markdown it supports html it supports all types of things and you can create books, notebooks in those notebooks you put your notes a collection of notes and within each note you put a sub note and whatever and you can give them icons emoji icons really nifty touch so it's a simple app but the server side the fact that I'm controlling it makes me feel so freaking powerful and in control does your docker container does your docker container integrate with the thing that you covered last time the I forget what it was called the docker it integrates with that it integrates with that but it's a little bit complex because kubernetes does not support HTTPS and that one requires HTTPS unless you figure out how to make it work with HTTPS but I run a reverse engines reverse proxy on my VPS so I am able to run it via 0linux.xyz website so my Joplin server has a url my vault warden has a url I have all my docker containers that exist on that VPS going through 0linux xyz and I use dockage by the way to manage all my docker container I love Joplin it's very simple you can install the server you can install the app on any device you want you synchronize and you have full control over what you do add users, remove users if you want more users on your server or what not so my thingy of the week was real quickly you guys know that I have all of a sudden become a gamer again I have been gaming like fucking crazy I have been using the steam deck which I have right here and yes there is a linux cast sticker on the back those are stickers shoptheflinuxcast.org but I also decided that I wanted to do some gaming on the phone, it's a mobile gaming and I wanted a controller to do so now you can just use a regular bluetooth controller with both android and IOS but they make these things that attach to your phone holding one of these up to the camera this is called a backbone controller it plugs right into your phone and it's a playstation style controller and it's pretty good there's one that was covered on retro gamecore yesterday or the day before something like that that looks better and it's actually cheaper than the backbone so don't necessarily just buy this one do some research but this one here is about 100 bucks and it works really well with android it's supposed to work with IOS, I haven't figured that out yet because they're this is the most stupid thing ever because obviously the iPhone 15 is the first iPhone with USB-C so the USB-C ones have existed for a while but on Amazon the backbone guys advertise their controller to work with the iPhone 15 series the problem is that they are shipping backbone controllers without the firmware to work with the iPhone and on their website, this is the stupidest thing ever it says you must have an android phone to update the controller firmware to use with an iPhone who actually has most people aren't going to have an android phone they're not going to have both, it's fucking stupid but anyway, so that's one hit against it, but otherwise I've been doing some racing games on this and I'm going to install all my emulators and stuff on this it's going to be fucking awesome one thing I will say is that it eats your battery live so just don't leave it plugged in forever when you're not using it because I did that for a while and came back and my phone was completely dead but that's awesome, anyways that is my Nuggy of the Week and those are the Nuggies of the Week that he needed to say thank you boss it's a two maximum three-minute word it's very hard for me to say this I'm just saying it here because I can't make a YouTube video right now about it but the gist of it is I need to apologize to all the community who's watching who knows about Zero Linux it was brought out to me recently during a certain discussion for five hours the guy who started it all is smiling right now but anyway whenever I appear online on any live it was brought to my attention that I keep steering towards Zero Linux as if Zero Linux was the only thing in existence that was wrong on my part I need to apologize from the entire online community and who knows about Zero Linux the fact that I wasn't really paying attention to the Discord server and I had the wrong type of attitude towards towards the users shouldn't have had that kind of attitude now I'm opening up and the whole structure or the whole way I react to things has changed and it's working thank you Tyler thank you Tyler for that it was a real heart to heart talk and that was the first time I see Tyler talking serious and he meant it I normally say pretty light hearted yeah you were speaking from the heart and it showed I needed I needed a few slaps in the face to get to see things the way they were happening but thank you for that so far things are on the up and up and they're getting better and I will try my best to keep an open mind from now on no more RTFM because I don't even RTFM myself so I just admitted that because the ArchWiki every time I go there it scares the shit out of me and I tend to use chat GPT to convert what they say into a 12 year old something a 12 year old can understand so I understand you the user that yeah the ArchWiki is a bit overwhelming it can be overwhelming so I will stop sending you to RTFM and I will do my best to help you instead of being dismissive as I used to be so thank you very much hopefully we can put all the bad things behind us and move on for a better future for ZeroLinux and now ZeroLinux will keep on and ZeroLinux will move on as a KDE only I had to drop again because the people who were helping me maintain it because I couldn't do it on my own left the server so I can no longer do it on my own but this time around the code is still online on GitHub so anyone who wants to help continue them I'll be more than willing as long as I receive help but alone I can only do one thing and do it good because I mentioned my situation again that's all I can do and I'm going and by doing one thing and doing it good I'll be following the UNIX philosophy so yeah so I am from now on doing KDE, KDE only unless somebody is willing to pick up the code and open-mindedness through and through no more blocking anything and yeah thank you boss that's all I need it I'm glad you got that out Steve but I do want to make one comment about you using the words KDE and the UNIX philosophy in the same sentence sorry no it's just doing one thing and one thing good I had to be the joke man I had to take it the opposite direction sorry so if you want to get contact with us there are a number of ways probably the best way is to head on over to the website which is soon to have a refresh of some sort I gotta add some I haven't been doing a very good job of keeping it updated but I promise I'm working on it head on over there the linkscast.org is where you'll find all of that stuff you'll find all the previous episodes most of them anyways like I said working on that and also previous blog posts that I posted there as well you can also follow Tyler he has a YouTube channel where he's actually been posting stuff it's amazing he went like a homeless whole year without doing anything he lost his password then he's back it's amazing he's alive again Zany is available on YouTube and Odyssey I believe at youtube.com Zany OG I don't know about the Odyssey part does anybody use Odyssey anymore? probably not rambling man I know his videos are still getting synced there because I see them but anyways youtube.com Zany OG before we completely move on since we are talking about my channel just so you know I'm going to be doing a zero ed stream later probably with some of these people in here and if Matt would narrate it that would be incredible but we'll see about that he's a busy man so never know I might be around later like after supper but we'll see anyways Steve is on fosterdon.org at zero linux zero with an X is where you'll find him so find me at youtube.com slash the linux cast you can find all of our contact information at the linuxcast.org slash contact there you'll find the discord servers for all three of us Macedon links and all that kind of stuff there that we don't have to actually you know type that stuff in because laziness is the name of the game also if you want to support the channel you can do so by heading on over to the merch store where you'll find a lot of awesome freaking merch if I do say so myself that includes desk mats and t-shirts and stuff like that so head on over there shop.linuxcast.org you can support me on patreon at patreon.com slash linuxcast that's where the section gets longer every week patreon.com slash linuxcast for patreon also on kofi and youtube and all that stuff so that's it for the contact information we record this live every Saturday at three o'clock p.m. eastern time release most Saturdays we have I believe two episodes left after this one we have another another topic from one of us and then we're playing a linux trivia game for the last episode of the year so we have those things to look forward to it's gonna be really fun so make sure you hit the subscribe button hit the like button and 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