 and welcome everyone to Generally Irritable on this fabulous, fabulous Monday evening. Oh, I hear a little echo now. Do you hear that, Ann? No. Is that just in my headphones? Hey, guys, let me know in the chat feature if you can hear that echo so we can make sure that we've got that figured out. As always, we are live on YouTube and Facebook, so feel free to put your questions in the comment section for my special guest this evening, Miss Ann Hassel. Now, I have introduced you a couple of different ways to different people, and I have said you're an anti-commercialization, you know, cannabis commercialization activist. I don't know if that's the right thing to say or to title you as, but you are sounding the alarm about some issues with cannabis commercialization. Yes, I am. I'd like to say I'm a physical therapist who cares about human health. I was a blood tender. I was a blood tender, and from what I saw working in the industry, I'm very concerned. Got it. Okay. So, Ann, I am super happy that you're here today. I had the Libertarian Party Chair on about a month or two ago. Now, I'm trying to remember when, and we just talked about the Libertarian position on legalization of marijuana and other drugs, just generally speaking as a matter of politics and government and things like that, but we didn't really talk about any of the moral questions. We didn't talk about any of the health questions, really, and I'm really glad that you're willing to come on because I feel like the side of the anti-commercialization doesn't really get a fair hearing when it comes to the media. How hard of a time have you had getting your message out, talking about, you know, the trouble that you saw with commercial cannabis in Massachusetts? Well, I've reached out to national journalists, even someone, Amanda Lewis in the Rolling Stone, because she wrote about these people who are crusading against the pesticides in marijuana. And I wrote her, I sent her the same information I sent you, and even more, and she just said, oh, well, that's amazing. I can't believe that. So, people don't want to show the negatives because this is so new. It's a hot topic. It's got so many people, I think, actually duped as to what actually is being sold to people. Yes. I think that very good point. Alice says, are you against marijuana? I hope so. Are you asking me, or are you asking Ann that, Alice? You know, I think a good place to start is, you know, we were talking about this a little bit before we went live, and now you are not saying that you want prohibition on marijuana. You're not saying it should all be, you know, we should burn it all and nobody should get to partake in cannabis. What you're saying, what you're really concerned about is informed consent and really the corporate and political corruption that comes from commercialization. Did I, did I characterize your position correctly? Well, I have evolved in my position. I personally, once I stopped using marijuana and reading more the scientific research, that changed my thought on it. But I again am someone who used marijuana for decades. I got arrested for growing marijuana in Virginia. I was facing five to 25 years for 12 plants. Oh my God. Yes. So, and I served a month in jail. I've been jailed for marijuana. So, I was someone who really believed in marijuana and looked to it to be legal. I voted for medical and recreational legalization. At this point, I feel I'm very much against the commercialized industry and the harm and they're perpetuating harmful super potent products and people have no idea what they voted for. I didn't know when I voted for recreational marijuana, it was going to be the whole plant, including these high potency THC concentrates. And those are adverse for people, Erica. So, let's, so let's put a pin in the high THC stuff for just a second, because I want to, I want you to take a moment if you would and and just give people a little bit of your history where you come from. Now, you shared with us that you had grown previously and that you, that you served some time even for it. I wonder, will your, has Virginia legalized weed yet? No, I think they're doing recreational, they have medical. That's good. That's probably coming up because by and large, I see Virginia, it's enticing people look at the tax money. They think of social justice. It's a whole complex thing involved. Well, I wondered, I wondered if you might be able to get your record expunged. That's what I was going to ask if you'd gone through that process at all. I did have it expunged because what happened was I was a 20-year-old with no criminal background at all. And I think they felt sorry for me knowing that that felony would be on my record. So, they actually did expunge it back then. So, I am sympathetic, but because I know people have been targeted if you look at certain minorities, but that doesn't give the right of states and for a predatory destructive industry to just steamroll America. That's good. So now, okay, so just for the record, just to establish for everybody listening, I am not for or against. I know people who have been harmed by marijuana. I know people who have psychiatric issues, who I've watched them. Unfortunately, I was present while they smoked and went crazy. I mean, not went crazy. They had, and then that's very rude to say. This young man that I was with had schizophrenia and he smoked and it started whatever that process is. But I also know people who have had cancer and or other medical illnesses that were really helped by medical marijuana rather than taking like opioids or something like that. So I am neither for or against. I am Switzerland on this topic. Although doing the research for this show was pretty disturbing. So just give people a little bit more of your background. So we know that you grew some plants and that you have a background in physical therapy. Why don't you share just for a couple minutes about, you know, why you came to be a bud tender, what that meant for you and, you know, why you were looking into it in the first place? Well, as I said, I consumed marijuana. I was arrested for growing in Virginia. And I later, I actually did continue to grow, you know, now and then. I strongly believe that it was helping me. It was what I thought was something that, you know, relaxed me. And what happened was I became a physical therapist, but I was just drawn to marijuana. You might know a lot of people, they are drawn to the marijuana plant for them. You said, you know, people who had adverse effects, but you might know people where it is their focus. And that was how I was. Oh, yeah. And they've got the, they've got the sweatshirts that have weed leaves all over it. And they're wearing weed earrings. And their whole life is, I'm about weed, you know? Well, I was like that, but maybe more, but I was also a physical therapist. But I kept thinking, I actually had some patients I'd go see as a physical therapist, and they'd say, I'd have to get something out of their Dora and I'd see a pipe. Like, that really helps me. And I thought, wow, no, these people are telling me it helps them. And that's how I actually, when I applied to be a bud tender in September of when I got the position in September of 2015, a lot of people applied, Erica. It was like the third dispensary in my state. And I was one of 800 people. They hired 25. So I remember just being so proud of myself because I knew so much about marijuana. I love marijuana. Marijuana was my life. And here I was going into the green rush. And I knew so much about it. I felt like I'd, you know, had had that, you know, been incarcerated from it. But now it turned around. I was just so happy. You'd arrived as they say. I was ready for the green rush. And I took the position as a registered marijuana dispensary agent, which is a bud tender, more or less, I probably would have been a cultivator if there was actually a location near me. But I was glad to be a bud tender. I liked patients. I have, I feel like a good rapport with people. And I was just, again, I easily, I totally just ace the interview, the role played, because I knew so much about marijuana. But going to work there, they were just some signs before about how the CEO of my corporation had been caught in a lie. And right there, I thought, and he, they almost did not get the licenses because the state said if anyone lies on the application, they're not going to get the license. That's what Deval Patrick said. Oh, what was the line? Yep, he said that he had a college degree. And he didn't have the he's like, Oh, well, something happened. But it didn't sit right with me. And I just thought about that. Yeah, why about something so obvious and verifiable? Well, that was it, because someone did verify and then he lied about when it was being verified. So that's even crazier. But he stepped down. But guess what? He actually still ran the company, even though he was told that he would not be, he ran the day to day, he was from Colorado. So that didn't sit well with me. But I started working. It was a very it was a really dark place in a way. I just couldn't understand. It was, I guess they were almost secretive and just just very close. But I thought they're worried about having a marijuana business. I don't know what's going on. But when I saw actually mold in the container and the bins, I just thought to myself, this should not be happening. Yeah, it should not be happening. So how long were you working there before you started to kind of get a bad vibe or a bad feeling about what was going on? Definitely. I'd say by the third month I was. And I also at that point, I went to the cultivation center. I was so excited because I had, I wanted to like be in the with the plants. I wanted to trim the marijuana that I had done before so many times and get paid for it. I was just so happy. We go to the cultivation center and they have this airlock. So it's something that you step into this space and it blasts you with air. And oh, like I think this makes people think, oh, well, this is just taking care of everything. It's a clean room or something like you're going into the make microchips at IBM or something. That's what it was. It was very and you had to do a dance. Even said do a dance. So what happened was I walked off the air. When I got through that airlock, it was very humid. It blasted in my face and I kept thinking and almost that rotting fruit smell. I don't know if you've ever smelled like marijuana that is rotting, but it was humidity. And I just thought, well, that's strange. And then when they sent me to trim, of course, I had some other crazy where I learned things weren't right when I was working in the kitchen. But when I went to the cultivate when I was trimming, that's when I saw all the mold and I can moldy bud for eight hours. And I said to them, excuse me, this this powdered mildew all over. What'll I do? They're like trim around it and that now what is there? Do you know? Is it different kinds of mold that can grow on marijuana? Or was it all different kinds of mold? What I mostly saw was powdered mildew. And what happens is if people look that up, it's very pervasive in the industry. You have high humidity. It doesn't help when you have 40 like halide lights just strung up from the steering with sheetrock. Okay, that's what the operation was sheetrock. And they couldn't even go for some hardy back or something like that. Like they put in bathrooms, they just put up regular sheetrock. Yes, it was sheetrock. Yes, it was. And of course on paper, Erica, they're going to do this high tech cultivation center. Well, no, that's part of the thing people need to realize that it's all about maximizing their profits and if they can get away with it, they'll do that. Do you know what the effect is of if you smoke mold? Like what that does to your lungs or to your body? Well, of course, for the immunocompromise, it's very serious for them. But as for Gillis, that's a type of fungus. It killed at least one person in California. So it can be lethal. And wow, the problem is they decide that they can remediate the moldy marijuana. And the way they do that is dunking it in the hydrogen peroxide like the cultivators told me and I actually saw. Or also, what is smoking hydrogen peroxide to you? That can't be good either. It is. And actually, that's part of what I've told the state. I said the CDC says that consuming hydrogen peroxide and actually in that article that I sent you, it's hazardous to your health. People would taste it. I always wondered why when I started to smoke it, I would cough, it aggravated my throat. And again, I wanted to see the best Erica because they told me it was the art and science. And I believed it. I mean, well, and now now we had that happen in Vermont too. Excuse me. The Oh my God, what's the dispensary downtown that you shank clean valley discovery? Excuse me. Yeah. So so that that was a digger article that exposed that that they also had a mold issue and a hydrogen peroxide solution. Yeah, I used to think that my corporation was an aberration. Then I realized it's the standard operating procedures across the entire country, Erica. That is really scary. And this is the thing that, you know, like I said, when I was reading through the various articles and listening to people's testimony, I thought, I've never heard any of this before ever. You know, I had a client in Los Angeles. It was a cannabis delivery company. I did their accounting. And so I knew, you know, he had told me that there were some shady dealings and that a lot of the people that he knew in the industry were akin to mobsters, basically, rather than farmers, cultivators. And that I thought was really unfortunate. Well, it's the love of money, right? It's going to do things. And I have to say, there was a coalition of growers in Vermont, organic growers, even social justice people who didn't want S54, the commercialization bill in Vermont to pass. They felt that it would be harming their interests and shutting them out. And that's what it's all about. It's going to be the big players, the Silicon Valley venture capitalists. Those are the people going into this. Is it the bill 54? That is the one that allows for companies to get into each stage of the process, right? Grower, processor, seller. Vertical integration is what they call it. Got it. Okay. So that allows for vertical integration, which basically means that it's going to squeeze out any small time people who want to, any entrepreneurs, any cannabis entrepreneurs who want to get into the industry, they're going to be squeezed out in favor of these really large corporations. That's how it's going to go, because let's face it, it's happened out west too. Like you can buy a gram for $15. Maybe people dream of being those craft cultivators, but how can they be when someone will be selling it for $4 a gram? And people need to understand the craft cultivation, it's not going to be what they think it is. I think everyone has high hopes for it, but it's going to be dominated by the moneyed interests. And money, anytime you're talking about money and an opportunity in an industry like this where it's growing like crazy, there is so much room for corruption. There's actually an incentive structure created to be shady. Right. Because again, if they can get $15 a gram and the crop gets moldy, they're not going to toss the whole thing out in Massachusetts. You have the pesticides, even, I think even as much of a problem is the mold. It's very harmful for humans and those are not being monitored. You have an ethical people applying them. We had a cultivation center using them illegally. They get away with it because in our state, the marijuana corporations drive their sample to the lab, but in your state, there are no independent labs. I believe that the marijuana corporations have the labs in house, which they do. I don't know why Vermont's doing that. That is okay. So hold on. So we're trusting the people who are making it to test it and make sure that it's safe. Yes. Vermont is and at least we have our third party. Eric, guess what? These people get paid by the dispensaries and there's been out in California. You had flour being tested and passing or not even being tested. It was passed anyway. People get lazy. They all want their piece of the marijuana pie. Some of the stuff is just, it just boggles the mind, especially in a state like Vermont that is so about small bit or at least used to be about small businesses, supporting the little guy, entrepreneurship. We have one of the highest rates of small business ownership and entrepreneurship in the country, actually. And so this idea that they're setting it up so that these big corporations will be able to protect themselves and set the rules up is really very astonishing. Right. I mean, is Vermont ready? I mean, you actually, I love going up there, by the way. I love Vermont, but I think you have so few people. Are you guys ready? Or is it going to be the foxes guarding the chicken coop? The henhouse. Yep. It's going to happen. And everyone thinks they're going to do it right. Oh, we're going to do it right. We're going to be better. An example was, you have the whole advertising. There was a legislator who did not want the advertising and the house bill did not have allow for advertising. Then it goes to the Senate. Now all of a sudden, the advertising is allowed. So what about the people? They say they want to reduce the adverse effects, but then they're going to just make it full-fledged. I'm going to write that down. I'm going to take a note. And you don't, you probably don't have an answer for this, Ann, but I'm going to ask you anyway. Because advertising is in the bill. It was put back in the bill. I'm going to look that up. Just put back in. And just as a reminder to everyone, I'm here this evening with Ann Hassel. We're talking about the implications of commercialization of cannabis in the state of Vermont. If you have any questions or comments, please feel free to write them, type them in the chat in Facebook or YouTube. Let us know what you're thinking. If you have anything to contribute, especially this, because Ann, if you don't know this, I'm going to look this up after. And I wish I had thought of it earlier. You don't happen to know if any of these large commercial operations or even small commercial operations donated to any political campaigns, do you? You bet they did. They all do. I'm serious. You should look that up. I should have looked that up. Someone told me that I should have gone to a certain site and looked that up so I could tell you specifically. But yes, in my state, they all receive money. I got to look that up because I have found when you, when some nonsense passes the legislature, if you follow the money, you can see why. And there's a number of bills in Vermont, and I won't digress too much, where they pass these egregious laws that shock everyone. And then you look and you realize that they're some of the largest contributors to political campaigns in the state. And it's like, Oh, well, now it makes sense. Now I understand why that's happening. Okay, we're talking about advertising. That came back up in the Senate version of the bill. So. And the governor signed it. So it's the law. Yeah. Now, I knew he was going to sign it. I actually, I liked it. I got to go meet the governor, which is more than happened in my state. And he listened, but I knew it was going to pass. There's just no holding back, especially when you add in the social justice component. But as I said before, not only were various growers against it, but also there was a social justice group justice for all was against this because they know it's going to be dominated by big money because that's big marijuana. Well, and that is the thing that I think was sort of the real kind of kick in the gut for a lot of people was this was billed as an opportunity to make things right and clean up the past for people who have criminal records because of cannabis and, you know, oh, we're going to make it so that people of color get in first because, you know, this and then that and whatever. And it's like all that just seems to have gotten sort of swept under the rug. Yeah, it's pot, smoke and mirrors. Actually, that's what it is. Pot, smoke and mirrors. That is amazing. I need to remember that one. Yeah. And now, so there's obviously all this room for corporate corruption. It's been documented around the country in California, in Colorado, in Massachusetts. You know, my experience in California was that it was that it was really corrupt. I also have a client in Texas who does things with vaping and they were asked to help with some product in California, because they already had the mechanism for creating all of the, you know, the pieces and whatever and so blah, blah, blah. And they also some of the nicest, kindest people you'll ever meet Christian family really gives back to the community. I was very involved. And they told me that they were super uncomfortable with the people that they were doing business with. And so like almost everyone that I have personal experience with and personal knowledge of who has done anything in the cannabis industry has said that commercialization and the people involved in commercialization are shady mob like corrupt and make them make people feel like they want to take a shower after they've talked to them. You know, I'm sure they're probably, I guess there's some, I know that I know people who aren't on that level, but they're very rare. But again, I think it's dominated most of it, in my opinion, is how you describe it. You people can perhaps get through, but no, people need to understand if they're unscrupulous and shady, what kind of marijuana are they selling you. They make their money off of how much they provide and how much. Why would I want to go get something that is, you know, I'm trying to remember the exact number that, you know, there's all these vape cartridge like 20%. I could, I could be wrong. Don't quote me on that y'all. But I remember it was a lot of huge percentage of vape cartridges come from China. And I'm like, why would I, why would I want to go to a store, let's say, a marijuana dispensary and buy stuff that is made overseas or out of state without any oversight? Apparently, you know, the FDA isn't checking any of this stuff. So there's no way to tell if it's good. They, we already know that they're lining. Well, okay, we'll keep the vape. No, I said I was going to wait on the vape stuff. So I let, don't let me forget. Why wouldn't I just go keep going to the farmer down the street? You know, the guy that I've been getting it from for years, you know, he knows the farmer and the farmer is like organic. And it's, you know, blah, blah, like why, why would I participate in the legal market when the illegal market sounds like it's actually safer? Actually, as with legalization, it is increased the legal market across the board. It really has because you bring up a good point. Why would you buy, like in my, in Massachusetts, an ounce for $420 when you can get it from someone for $200. So they keep saying that if we legalize it, it's going to make, it's going to reduce the black market, but it only increases it. And if you're bringing, also you have to realize, I don't know if you knew this, Erica, there was a big bust out in Tacoma, out in Washington state. And you have hotels, you have people from China who are coming here and setting up grow houses. It happened in actually, it's happening in states. It even happened here in Massachusetts, because again, it's the big draw. It's the money. But I bet you they're not doing a good project because again, it all comes down to the weight of the yield. And it's just people have to understand just because you make it legal. Oh, it doesn't make all the problems evaporate. No, it magnifies the problems. Well, and this is, so this is, we've got a question, Ray says, is there statistics on toxins with the underground sales, like it's been for years in Vermont. So like, do we know, Ray, correct me if I'm, if I'm re paraphrasing incorrectly. So basically, do we know, like, if, if the black market sales versus the dispensary, if the dispensary is using pesticides and hydrogen peroxide and all this other stuff, do we know what the black market folks are doing? Well, people would say to me, Oh, it's so great, we have these dispensaries because now the product is so much safer. And I would just think they have no idea. Now granted, you will have people using banned pesticides in terms of illegal growers too. But in my opinion, if you're going to tell people, Oh, it's just so safe. That's my biggest problem. They're telling people that the state is regulating this. It's not there for it's safe. And that makes people, it lays their fears, Erica. They think, Oh, because it's legal. And because they're regulating it, it's safe and nothing could be farther from the truth. This almost is like, it's so interesting. I've been having a lot of conversations with people recently about informed consent, health freedom and things like that, where for many years people talk about, Oh, this is a conversation between me and my doctor and it's none of your business. And, you know, but then there are certain things that they think it is their business. And okay, good. Ray, thank you. And so this idea that you can trust the government to tell you what's safe, you can't trust the government. I used to, before I went to the mayor, went to work in the dispensary, I trusted all of my leaders and I trusted the government. Well, it was a tough wake up call, because I realized they're not doing the right thing, because again, the power they want the votes, the money, because they're getting the money, they don't care about the average person, Erica. Now, there have been a number of corruption charges. So, so not just corporate corruption, but political corruption, like you talked about, where public officials have been found to have taken bribes and things like that. Yes, in my state, the fall river mayor had was taking bribes and had at least several hundred thousand dollars in his safe. And then you had also the Russian oligarchs wanted to make money. So, they decided to get into, you know, make a deal with Cureleaf and try and get some licenses in California, Nevada, Nevada politicians. And it's just really upsetting to think that, I mean, these Vermont people must think, oh, it's going to be about the farm or it's going to be about the local. No, I think it's going to be about these multi state operators. That's what they bill it as. That's what they billed it to Vermonters as. Oh, it's going to be, oh, it's going to be safer. Oh, it's going to be, look at us, Vermont. And, you know, we've got this, you know, we've already got marijuana, what the heck do they call it? Tourism, right? There's already weed tourism in Vermont. Now, we're just going to make money off of it. Right. Do they have something like the weedery instead of the winery or, you know, I just don't think that eco, I don't think it's going to be people always, every single state thinks we are going to be the center of marijuana tourism. I mean, every state like this New Jersey, every city just thinks that's going to happen. I don't think that's going to be evolving. You had, interesting, you know, the Emerald Triangle out in California, that's been growing the most marijuana in California. It's the Emerald Triangle, Mendocino, Trinity, and also Humboldt County. Well, they voted against legalization because they wanted to preserve, you know, their livelihoods and they knew what would happen. Yes, even the most pro-Marijuana people voted against it. The way the government works. So Benjamin said also stocks, I'd be interested to see what politicians have money in cannabis and CBD stocks right now. Yeah, what about John Boehner? We'll get $20 million if marijuana is nationalized federally. What? Shut up. Yeah, $20 million payout. Isn't he with acreage holdings with Governor, well, my Governor Weld? Yes, they are getting lots of money. And Nancy Pelosi's son has been the candidate's business. Did you know that? Oh, so the person who at the same time, we're struggling with COVID. Yeah. We need to pass a COVID thing that they instead passed the legalization of marijuana in the house. Nancy Pelosi, that Nancy Pelosi. And her son is in the cannabis industry. How many people know this? This is hysterical because for people who don't know, Congress does not have to abide by the same rules that we do as American citizens. So they can actually participate in insider trading. So that, so they're able to profit off of the legislation that they're writing on our backs. That's amazing. Oh, Ray says it'll cost too much for tourists in Vermont. They'll bring their own. You know, I said the same thing and we talked about this a little bit. The only people who are going to go down to the bevy and buy marijuana from the dispensary or whatever are tourists. Absolutely. The ski tourists, I know that happened out in Colorado. And I actually went to a, I went to a grocery store and I was telling them because I had bought things from the grocery store and I wanted to know about the marijuana where I worked. And they knew all about it because they had other workers from my company in there. And then he said, those people, I said, I said, what about those poor people buying the product? And he's like, they deserve it. And I'm like, he's like, they deserve to be poisoned. And I said, really, what about people who don't know marijuana? I mean, I thought that was pretty heartless for that gross store owner to tell me that. What about the people, the older people, now they're telling older people, you don't have any energy, your body has aches and pains, you're lonely, use some marijuana. So they're going to these dispensaries and they don't know that what good marijuana is actually, I don't think they do. Do you, do you remember, I'm not old enough to remember seeing them, but I've seen them where all of those old ads where it's like nine out of 10 doctors smoke camels or, you know, like your doctor prefers Marlboro. And I'm like, I just can imagine we're going to look back on marijuana ads in, you know, 20, 30, 50 years and laugh the same way at the ridiculousness of it. Well, you know what bothers me about, you know, big tobacco is they were, it took over 80 years and they were before Congress and the CEOs were asked, is your product addicting? No, it's not. And they all lie. And I really feel like that's what the marijuana industry is doing too. And they did it with opioids. Yep, absolutely. And in T.J. Dunovan, our attorney general has even gone as far as to say that marijuana is not a gateway drug that, and I've heard people for years say that marijuana is not addictive. And as a recovering addict and alcoholic, I would tell people who would try to say to me, Oh, I don't like I sponsor people and they'd be like, I don't have to quit smoking weed because it's not addictive or people would argue with me that weed was not addictive. And I was like, if you believe that, then you've never been a weed smoker. That tells me you've never been a weed smoker. Yeah, go ahead. Actually, they called actually in the terms of the sobriety world. If you say I'm giving up everything except weed, that's California sobriety. That is good. That's what they said. And like even my dispensary manual said that 9% of the population can get a cannabis use disorder. And you're describing the person who would smoke it. I've seen friends of mine actually go into a psychosis. There's something called cannabis induced psychosis. It's in the DSM five. If you look it up, it's actually a medical or a psychological issue. People don't understand this cannabis induced psychosis. That's amazing that we just our own attorney general is out there saying things that are that are demonstrably false. That that's concerning to me. And why I don't know if he says uninformed or again, it's inconvenient because guess what? He's a politician, right? Yeah. So there you go. Yep. Yeah, exactly. To stay in office or to go to a higher office. Oh, yes. Hold on. Hold on one second. And mom is asking for the link to the show tonight. My mom is a great supporter and watcher of my show. She's awesome. She always calls me up after and rants about whatever she thinks that we were talking about. Would you? You're so sweet, honey. My husband and producer, mom, Benjamin is sending you the link right now. She just texted me. So would you text her? I love you, honey. I have the best husband in the whole wide world. I'm sure I've said that a thousand times, but I really do have the best husband in the whole wide world. So so we know in fact that cannabis can cause, I mean, it's it's classified as a hallucinogenic. If I recall correctly. Yes. So we're not just talking about like cigarettes that release a little norepinephrine in your brain. We're talking about a chemical that can induce hallucinazate hallucinazate. Wow. Why can't I talk today? Hallucinations and and psychosis. Do we know if cigarettes do that? Cigarettes don't I don't alcohol doesn't do that. And unfortunately, the young brain especially I didn't know this, but until the age of 25, your brain is still forming. And there is a great deal of risk for young people, but the dispensaries are selling to 21 and older despite that. And Canada, I think it's 18 and older. It's so crazy what's going up there in Canada. So I want to talk a little bit about the cartridges in particular, because this was a big topic. Vaping was a big topic several years ago. As I mentioned, I have a accounting client who does vape stuff. And I remember when they were going to start making them go like FDA process of their juices. And then there was a big push to ban vaping. And I thought to myself back then because I didn't know and I didn't understand. Back then I thought, well, you know, I'm an ex smoker. And my father died of lung cancer. And I lifelong smoker. And, you know, I quit several years ago after my father died because I was like, I don't want to die like that. And, and I just kept thinking, you know, if people are quitting smoking, shouldn't we just be grateful rather than trying to ban the thing people are using to get off cigarettes? But it sounds like there's a lot of problems with product being shipped to the United States for vaping purposes. That's right, Erica. You described the hardware I read in 2015 of the New York Times learned about it because, you know, my corporation, we had these terrible vape batteries. Those things would break all the time. I had a customer told with his blue up, right? My God. Yes. And I actually documented that included that in my list to the Department of Public Health and never heard back. One person actually was vaping and actually not from my corporation, but actually had a part of his jaw blow off because here you have that again, that device, you have this lithium ion battery. And people are puffing on this, not realizing, first of all, you have the hardware, which sometimes they coat the lead coil, the coil with lead to make it malleable. That's cheap. And then you have a, a cartridge you attach, right? That may have that marijuana with pesticides and what heavy metals and, and mycotoxins. And then you also have again a solution like the propylene glycol, the propylene, propylene glycol. And those were, they actually now Colorado is going to start banning some of those because they realized that that's harmful. As you described, you had that evapy mysterious illness last year. And actually in my state in Massachusetts, there were six instances of people who had evapy, who bought their products from a marijuana dispensary. So it's not just the black market. So that I need you to back up for me a little bit so I can understand the mechanisms. When you say there's something that you said is coated with lead, right? The battery. So you have a, a coil in the battery and also that's the thing. Oh, sorry. What's that? That's that the, the, the vape pen I've, you've ever done, like it's, it looks like a little pen. It's the, it's the battery and you, and then you attach the cartridge to it. So it's the, so it's the coil that heats up. Yes. That makes the vape. Yes. And it's got lead in it. What if it has, and no one's doing a test of, wow, let's see what happens when we draw from this vape device. And I know people in the cannabis users and enthusiasts have been saying for some time, why are they not looking at that? So is that, and forgive me, I'm going to treat me like I'm stupid. Okay. And, and because this is, I really want to make sure people understand this. The goal of these shows is really to educate people, right? So, so say this is my vape, this is my pen, pen, but say this is my, this is the battery for my vape pen and this is my cartridge, right? Yes. Is the coil in the battery or is it in the cartridge? It's in the battery. So it's in the battery, right? And now the cartridge, which we're getting, that's what's got the, the, the, the liquid inside has the propylene glycol and these other things that are just chemicals to be like binders and fillers. That's what I call it. I used to be a pharmacy tech. So it's like, it's whatever they put to make it liquid, right? Yeah. Like as I described before, for the flavor, because let's, that tastes right back. They add the terpenes to make it flavorful, just like Juul had the flavors in theirs and Juul got into big trouble. Do you remember the whole thing with Juul? All of a sudden, everyone was consuming, instead of consuming like one little pot in a Juul was equal to a pack of cigarettes. So you had kids that were consuming multiple packs of cigarettes worth of Juul. That's so gross. And they actually are now suing them, I know in my state, because they felt like that was again targeting to the youth, because I have to say, when you look at alcohol, when you look at cigarettes, especially alcohol, you have an industry where 75% of the product is bought by 25% of the users. In the same in marijuana, I would be a heavy user by the time I didn't start off as a heavy user. By the time I started consuming the concentrates, I became a heavy user and I was just consuming more and more and more. And that's eventually what I believe the industry wants are these heavy users. So we just did, are you listening? Because her audio just went funny. Is that just my headphones or is that my fault? Or is that something? Say something for me, Ann. Okay, can you hear me? You hear that? Yeah. Does it sound funky? Yeah, you just got a little far away for some reason. We'll keep talking. Maybe it'll correct itself. I can still hear you. So I'm assuming everybody else can still hear you too. Ray says billboards will be everywhere and seen by all. How will this influence the youth in society? No, we don't. So Ann, your sound is getting worse, gradually worse. I'm not sure. Do you do you have plenty of power on your phone? If you would, Ann, leave the broadcast and then log back in. Okay, we'll see if that helps. I'm going to try to do this without her for a little bit. Ray, yes, store signs. You are not joking about that. Okay, she came right back in. Hopefully that makes it easy. All right, let's try that now. Can you hear me? Oh, much better. Yeah, we got you. I just think it's sad with those billboards. In my state, they weren't supposed to have billboards. You were not supposed to have advertising related to marijuana to a population that had at least 25% under 21. And in California, they banned marijuana billboards, but they still made their way up. Yeah, I was going to say, I saw Mad Men billboards, and I probably shouldn't be advertising for people on my show, but there were definitely weed billboards in LA when we lived out there. And one of the things I've been listening to somebody down at the Howard Center in his testimony, he was saying that even though you aren't, even though we aren't advertising, even though there isn't billboards of advertising marijuana, the normalization of it and this rhetoric that, oh, it's good for you and it's medicine. Oh, marijuana is medicine. It's medicine. It's medicine. It's medicine is telling people that there really are not side effects for it. Right, right. And then you're going to have what I have here in Pioneer Valley. You're going to have marijuana smelled everywhere on the streets. People are smoking with impunity. They don't care. And it's sad because even I read about the YMCA, they have a daycare and they wrote a memo for parents saying, please do a smell check of your kids before you drop them off so they're not wreaking of marijuana. Well, you know what? They got into trouble for saying that instead of like maybe some parents saying, I should not be driving in my car with marijuana, you know, hotboxing my kid, instead they had to apologize for even suggesting that that that was not a good thing to have your kid wreaking of marijuana. So we can't have secondhand cigarette smoke and that is the worst thing in the world. And if you smoke out in public, you're the devil for smoking around people, but you can't. But the Y had to apologize for children smelling like weed when they came in. Yes. And then also I have to think you're going to make cannabis consumption sites. They're working on that. Well, how is that going to work? Yes, but you're going to go into, uh, we don't have indoor smoking. So I don't know. Maybe it'll be edible. So yeah, the next thing will be now people, let's face it. Let's say you live in public housing and you can't smoke your marijuana. Well, Erica, you have to go somewhere and use it. We need to have a location where you can use it. Designated smoking areas basically. Or a cafe. I mean, I think it's gone too far. I never thought any of this was going to happen. I thought it was a good thing that again, people would have the opportunity to consume what at that point I thought was not harmful, but it's gone over the top. It's really been kind of remarkable to see what's happened. Now, I remember you mentioning and I think I read it somewhere else about heavy metal toxicity from smoking marijuana. How does that happen? That's right. I was actually heavy metal poisoned when I left. And that was a big problem. I have this whole book measuring heavy metals, contaminants and cannabis and hemp. It's a problem. This writer is saying that we don't have the testing that we have done. We only test for four heavy metals. There are many more. But if you have fertilizers, if you have nutrients, because they're again growing this hydroponically and a lot of you might know people who do hydroponics, but they don't want to do it with again anything that's harmful. But if they can get away with it, you have again insecticides, you have nutrients, you have fertilizers. And that all has metals in it. It can have. Or you know what else I learned? I learned that let's say you have your plant drenched in the pesticides. Maybe some are approved, maybe not. But when you are making the cannabis concentrate with butane and propane, that makes a reaction that increases the heavy metals. So basically there's all this science to growing and people who are not thoughtful or careful about it are poisoning people basically without maybe intent or maybe knowingly, but maybe even unknowingly. Well, it's upsetting people like even this cannabis book again written by really, you know, people who support cannabis are saying they're unethical people out there in terms of production and had a chapter on heavy metals and pesticides that I was reading. And it's just a dark underbelly of the industry that people don't know about. So what do you think about what do you think would be a good solution? Do you think government should just stay out of it? Keep it, you know, like in Vermont as an example, it's not legal. Technically, it's just decriminalized. And if you are a person, you can grow your own plants. Somebody right in the chat, I used to know what the answer was. You can have like three adult plants and like five immature plants do not quote me anybody. Do not make your decisions based on what I just said. But it's something like you can have so many adult plants and then some whatever, and then you can give it to your friends or, you know, you can give it away or you can smoke it, but you just can't sell it. Do you think that's a reasonable thing? Or do you think we should go back to it being on, you know, a schedule? What is it a schedule? A narcotic? What do you think about any of that stuff? It's still a schedule one. Schedule one. That's what it is. The fact is, I don't see a way even in terms of with just people growing it, people grow a lot more. They really do. I have to admit I've known people in Massachusetts, you can have six per person. You can have up to 12 plants. Well, you can grow these really big plants. And the hard thing is this, let's say someone has their 12 reeking plants outdoors and there's someone who lives next door. Is that fair to them, Erica? At what point are you infringing on someone else's ability to enjoy their lives? Well, that's a good question. And that's what, you know, it was funny. We were joking about growing some in our backyard, which is right on the bike path in Burlington. And I was like, they would immediately get stolen. Like we would never be able to get away with that. And I wouldn't want it in the house. And I wouldn't like, for what? And like, it just, it creates a lot of interesting conversations. And, and I just think, you know, if we know that the government is terrible at everything, and they just have a tendency to screw stuff up, how do we do this in a way that's reasonable, fair and just? Well, the thing that worries me about nationalism, you know, federal legalization is that the marijuana lobbyists will become so powerful. They're already are getting so powerful. I think they spent, you know, they're spending millions and millions and pumping and pumping it. And yeah, you do have people that are trying to, to stand up against them. But they're just being bulldozed because it's so much money, it's going to become so powerful. And it's global. I didn't realize the global implications. Now they're talking about how this is going to be something exported between countries and this and that. And maybe one day someone said, Ann, why are you so worked up about it? One day, you're going to go to a convenience store, go to Cumberland Farms, and they're going to have packs of joints. And I thought, that's really sad. I'm not. Well, here's, here's my thing. Oh, Ray, thank you. He said it's three and three. So three immature and three mature. Here was the thing that I found really concerning about it all. You know, when, you know, we talk about what weed was like, you know, back in the day, when it was just grown and it was just normal. And people weren't doing this hybridization and genetically modifying and, you know, like we've done to our food, which a lot of people have suggested has made us sick, that all this genetic modification we're doing to our food and all this processing is making us sick. And then we're going to do the same thing to a medicinal plant, you know, that has legitimate medicinal purposes and is used in various religions ceremonies. So it's, it's legit, like it has a purpose. I get it. We're going to take this thing. We're going to, we're going to screw it up because that's what we do. And then we're just going to make people sick. Yeah. And one of the testimonies I heard was that in the 2019 youth risk behavior survey. So in Vermont, they do this youth risk behavior survey. And that in 2019, we saw a huge spike in suicidality and more than normal, but also in correlation, maybe, maybe not, maybe causation, maybe not a huge increase in marijuana use. So at the same time, we're decriminalizing it and telling everybody that it's medicine. Young people are using it more and having a higher risk of suicidality, suicidal thoughts and attempts. Yeah, especially out in Colorado, they had even a greater than Vermont because in that culture, it's been there longer. I think 2012 is when they started doing really more medicinal. They were one of the first to do, even before California, they did actually recreational. And yes, what about that? And I know that I consumed, why I eventually stopped is it was producing after dabbing that high potency THC concentrates. I never had a psychological problem and I wanted to end my life. So when people tell me that that is related, I understand because it brought me to a dark place. I never thought marijuana could do that because again, I was used to the 1980s marijuana, the 1990s marijuana getting stronger. I wasn't any way ready for what this is now. I call it frankenweed. I think it's abomination and I think it's disgusting. Do we have to be toxic and dangerous to this extent? That's what so for people that don't know, for anybody that's watching and doesn't know dab, I'm trying to remember all the different terms. There's dab, shatter, glass or something. Isn't there like a bunch of names for it? Well, you have the cannabis concentrate. It's what I said before you take the cannabis and you strip it with a butane and propane or CO2 extraction. The thing is you have a highly concentrated concentrate. It can be and you dab it and that's when you take a little bit of the shatter or the wax and then basically just like a little it's basically just like a waxy, like a little ball of resin. Yes. Right. Yes. Okay. And then you heat it. But I'm telling you it's very powerful. I had never, I mean, I just remember that first time I tried it and then of course it was like you, it's like you got high for the first time and then some people are reporting that you can be a decade smoker and smoke that and it's like over the top the palm leaves and once you smoke that the concentrate you can't go back to the flour because it doesn't give you the same high. It's like crack cocaine versus just powder cocaine. The high is stronger, more intense, but leaves you wanting essentially. Well, it's interesting that the marijuana, it stimulates the same receptors in the brain as the opiates. So there is a correlation. People say that, oh, we need to have the marijuana because it'll stop people from being on opiates. And that's just not true. There might be some people who say that happens. But if you look at the, in fact, the surveys of what's happening in the studies, it isn't helping. That's really interesting. I did not know that. Well, and I've read studies, this was back when I was looking at quitting smoking and a mentor of mine in recovery talked about how if you are, if you were, you know, trying to abstain from, you know, alcohol, whatever, if there's anything that you hold on to that you're addicted to, then you are more likely to relapse on whatever it is you're trying to abstain from. So he said if that the studies showed that if you were a recovering alcoholic as an example, but you did not quit smoking, or if you quit smoking as well, you were less likely to go back to abusing alcohol because you'd gotten rid of all of your addictive behaviors, basically. Yeah, it's really interesting. You have your brain and you have dopamine and dopamine can be a natural reward. Let's say Erica, your husband says something nice to you, you do something nice for him. It's just a good feeling. But unfortunately, as a society, we're not content with that. Instead, we're getting swept up in these actual drug producing that. And whereas, let's say if I go on a bike ride and my dopamine, and I'm feeling good, but when I was doing the shatter, it jacks it up to here. So I could not feel anything positive unless my brain was stimulated to that level with the concentrate. Well, and now that let, you know, talking about America as a whole, right? So we, well, okay, let me take a step back. So Vermont, we have one of the higher rates of suicidality in the country, higher than the national average, which people don't talk about. We also have a huge problem with opioid addiction. A lot of these problems correlate with economic activity. So people don't have jobs. If people don't have hope for the future, they're more likely to be consuming things to try to make themselves feel better. And when we're talking about the United States as a whole, where we are hyping up those neurotransmitter releases, right? So we drink a ton of soda that dumps various neurotransmitters in our brain, eating fast food, right? McDonald's knows exactly how much fat, sugar, and salt put in their food to make a dopamine kick in your brain so that you'll become addicted to it. Like we know that they've been doing these psychological things to our foods and all that other stuff. And now, so now we have a more depressed, especially now with COVID, right? So we have all these deaths of despair already. And then we make even more available this thing that looks like it's going to help you feel better. But it's really just like pot smoke and mirrors, like you said. Well, people actually, I thought that I was feeling better from it. Because actually, if you're online, as you say, hallucinogen, how do you know how you're really feeling? What's happening to your brain? You don't know. Yeah. And that said, and you bring up a good point because actually the rates of alcohol and marijuana use are unprecedented. And look what's happening in the world. It's really sad. And again, I feel for Vermont. Vermont has the number one in terms of college marijuana use, because Vermont was a very much, you know, going back to, I guess, Woodstock and all that, a lot of people came up there. It did happen. Oh, yeah, it's a beautiful state. It's very outdoorsy. But I am UVM was rated number one party school in the nation. Wow, years in a row by Rolling Stone magazine. And that's incredible. Even compared to California. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And that's what, you know, we have all these big name music groups, like Wu Tang comes from Burlington. You know, yeah. And people are like, what? Really? And I'm like, Yeah, this is known as a place that you can come, let your freak flag fly, whatever it is, and then get into some get into some nonsense. But it's, I know it really bothers me though about everything is that out in Portland, they, they basically decriminalized, let's say three and a half grams of meth, three and a half grams of heroin, 40 tabs of acid. So what's going to happen with that? What's going to happen there? More people are going to be using drugs and they want to say, but people use drugs anyway, we might as well do the harm reductionist thing. But I really think that's a bad way to go. Because you do have people that are openly using IV drugs. And I don't think that that is good for, for people to see. And what point again, is it their right to do that? And how, what about other people who don't want to do that? But I feel like right now, our society is just not, it's not going in a good direction. You know, we're definitely very dysfunctional as a whole overall. So, and we have come around the hour. And so I just want to give you a moment to take, you know, take a couple of minutes to share any last thoughts that you have with folks, anything that you want to make sure that either, either make sure we talk about, or, you know, just like a closing statement or whatever you want to share with folks. Well, I've talked to, I've been up to Vermont to tell people about the industry and what's really happening in the marijuana industry. They're touting it as being healthy. And it's, you may go in these stores and they seem so clean. But you don't understand really how the product's being grown. You have assurances of people who are actually in the business to make as much money as possible. And it's just a shame. I have to say I thought that, again, commercialization would be a good thing. And I became a part and I worked in it. And I realized that I had been duped and actually I was duped to harm others. So I actually got out. And I have like, I remember you told me, Erica, you don't have any skin in the game. You don't, hey, you're just doing this because you want to inform people. And me too. When I went down to the FDA to speak, I went so by my own means and paying for it. And I've been ignored by politicians and officials. And that's going to keep up. Actually, I don't see a way that this will be widely shared with people. So I appreciate you, Erica, by letting me tell people. Because that makes a difference. And I really fear for what's going to happen. I would say in another 10 years, there are going to be a lot of weird cancers. And there are going to be a lot of people with psychological problems, maybe even who knows what the aftermath will be. But maybe then people will wake up. I just wished people could wake up sooner. But I guess it comes down to it's just what the system is. The system is greater than you. It's greater than me. But I want the people to be very wary. Right now, it's happening. You're going to have commercialization. But by all means, if you start seeing advertising everywhere and things that shouldn't be happening, then I would get involved. Stand up and say something. But people don't do that now. So you've got to stand up. Yep. And thank you so much for joining us this evening. I so appreciate it. What I would love to, and I'm going to write this down, I want to see if I can get somebody, folks from the Howard Center and stuff that I heard testifying. I'm sure they have resources that they can share with people. I'm going to look to see if they have something that we can post in the comments for people to go look at. But I would also just encourage people, if you have questions about this, if you have concerns, do a little bit of research about it. Go to the Howard Center, call the Howard Center and ask them for their opinion and what they think about things. Don't just take a politician's word that something is fine. At one point, they told us cigarettes were fine. At one point, you could get speed prescribed to you or over the counter. At one point, you could get all of these things and nobody cared. And the libertarian side of me was like, just legalize everything and then we'll deal with it and then all this stuff. But at the same time, what the reason I do this show is because I want to help facilitate an engaged and informed community. I want people to know what is going on, what their options are, what we're dealing with and give a voice to people who otherwise wouldn't have one because it is so easy to just go, oh, well, they said it was fine. So I guess it's fine and then just take people's words for it. And so I just am so grateful that you are willing to share your story, share your experience, even though it's probably uncomfortable sometimes. And it's got to be frustrating when people don't give all sides the same respect to be heard and considered by the public. So thank you so much, Ann. Thank you, everyone, for joining us this evening. If you have any questions, feel free to keep commenting. Thank you, Ray, for joining us. Keep questions, you know, keep commenting and asking questions if there's anything Ann can answer. I can help answer. We'll see about getting stuff from the Howard Center and come visit us next week for the next show. Next week is Dan French, a doctor in rhetoric, and we're going to be talking about why people are so bad at talking to one another and how come we've, and how we've ended up in this polarized position rather than being able to just talk and persuade one another. So Ann, hold on with me for one moment while I end the broadcast. Thank you, everyone. Good night. See you next week. Oh, actually, hold on. And a little teaser, there's going to be a new news program, a new generally irritable news program coming out. So be on the lookout for it. Okay, I'm really ending the broadcast now.