 Hi, welcome to CCTV Channel 17, live at 525, the Preservation Burlington Show. Preservation Burlington is a non-profit, 501C3 organization, and our mission is to preserve and protect the historic architecture and livability of Burlington through education and advocacy. Good one, Ron. The bottom part of that is for when we're done with the show. I need to constantly remember that, so thanks everybody for joining us again this month. Thanks again, me and Lisa, and we've got a guest who I'm trying to figure out how to introduce him. So we have Will Gansel with us, who's a graduate student. You graduate this spring, don't you have one more class to take? Are you done? I'm done in December. Done in December. This is my final semester. This December, nice. All right, yeah, yeah. So, and just full disclosure, I know Will because he's been helping me out in the shop for two years now, almost. Yeah, yeah, put it over. And you know, they go after it to say where he's a graduate student. See, there's only one graduate student in my mind. That's a historic preservation program at UVM. There you go. Which is, yeah, which is a terrific program. How did you... Thank you for being on the show. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. I didn't see you all summer because you were off doing fancy graduate student stuff. Which is what we'll talk about. How did you like the program sitting next to an alum? I think the program is absolutely fantastic. Really, you know, like you said, I started working with you about a year beforehand. And I had always, I had grown up with a very strong interest in old houses. I grew up doing a bunch of, you know, carpentry work and everything around the house. But really, having that academic background has been really fantastic. And more than that too, being introduced to so many people throughout Vermont, really. I mean, I intend to stay here long term and, you know, and you guys and Bob and Tom Visser are also in the program. And that's what struck me too is just the generosity and really the real care that people affiliated with preservation in Vermont have for the state and for others. It's really been a really awesome experience. Yeah, there's so many resources here and so many different levels of the condition. But you're right, everybody just absolutely loves them and is so willing to share their stories, you know, whether or not you can save them all, repair them all, but the passion is really there. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, Will and I both came from New York and coming here from New York where at least where I was from, there's very little appreciation for what is existing from, you know, prior decades and centuries, you know. And you come here in Vermont and because for a number of reasons, you know, sociopolitical and every other one, so much of our infrastructure from that turn of the century is still evident and available and being utilized, you know. And it's a big part of our tourism as well. Right, right. And there's appreciation for it. So I know that I came to Vermont and I was like, you know, I had to focus my work in New York City because that's where the old buildings were and that's where the stuff I was interested in here. I came here and everybody is interested in somehow or another reutilizing, saving their buildings. So the preservation community is small and tight-knit. I know everybody. Yeah, it's super small and super, super awesome. It's very strong. Yeah. Cool. Well, here too, maybe we should like just go get through our updates and things and then we can dive into the exciting stuff. Right. We've got a bunch of stuff coming up. Everybody's going to be looking out for the Sentinel. It just came out and in it is a super cool new preservation Burlington just like the one in the back, but with the tag saying 25 years. Sticker, sticker. Sticker. What did I call it? No. You just said a super cool preservation Burlington thing that you can stick on your coffee mug, your car, 25 years and yeah, it's in the new newsletter which is coming out which updates everybody on everything, Homes Tour, Lakeview Cemetery Tours coming up. Yes. We are not doing it in costume this year, but we are doing it. We are doing it. We've got some fabulous partners doing it with us as well this year too, right? We do. Is Friends of Lakeview Cemetery others or them? I can't remember. Well, they're really involved so it's a lot of fun and then there's a lot of stuff going on there. I know that they're working to find contractors to restore the main building and then also to do the paint work on the chapel. Green marker again, new board members, president's corner. Picture of you. Yeah. Good stuff. Anyway, that's it, right? Our meeting was a recap because we had Art Hop, a bunch of tours there, everything was really popular. Yeah, and we're trucking along with the fight to save Immaculate Conception. Bad news and good news and we're still fundraising, we're still looking for folks to help us out to continue the fight. Anybody that loves and is interested in modernist architecture, locally famous modernist architecture. Which you are as well, right? You're launching into some modernist things. A little bit, yeah, yeah. That's really, I've been rehired into the fall to continue this project and that's really all I have left is the modernist stuff, buildings like Marsh Life Science and Rowell, stuff that honestly, on a personal level I'm not sure how I feel about it but I've gained a real appreciation for modern architecture, absolutely. You can't help gaining an appreciation by sitting next to Devon Coleman. Yes, definitely. And on the topic of generosity and generous people, Devon, fantastic, I've only recently met him over the summer but still he's a great guy. Yeah, yeah. So let's maybe jump to the beginning of your project rather than the end part. One more thing I just wanted to mention that popped in my head, the other thing we have coming up, because you brought up the cathedral, and that area and the urban renewal project that we're working on with Champlain College. That's chugging along. I think there's links to it on our website where people can go because they have a, not a sub-stack, they have a, the music one sound. Spotify? There's a website that is evading me right now but there's the movie, a musical component, and a photographic gallery space that's all going to be set up, Champlain College is doing that, that's for November. And our guest next month is going to be Lily, the student that's putting that all together. Perfect. So we'll get our ducks in a row and our information and we'll be able to. So that I don't stammer as much. Yes, yes. And so I can actually sound like I know what I'm talking about, which I don't right now. Right. So back to your, back to Will in your project. So you, I really don't know much about this, so I'm really looking forward to you telling us all I know that it was some gargantuan documentation project of architectural elements and finishes at UVM. Absolutely. Okay. So early in the semester, Bob had approached, excuse me, Bob had approached me and my friend Josie, who's also in the program, about the possibility of completing an internship in conjunction with the Historic Preservation Department, the Vermont Department of Historic Preservation, and the, I believe it's the Campus Planning Department. And so the gist of it was really streamlining Act 250 review. You know, anytime, as it was explained to me, anytime UVM wants to alter, you know, significant interior character defining features, pursuant to Act 250, they have to go through a review process with the state. And that's led to some disagreements. I think most notably was probably the replacement of the columns for Ira Allen a couple years back. So naturally they've been looking to streamline that process because, you know, time is money and you have a limited project budget and you can only do so much. When Act 250 kicks in, that adds delays and delays are money. Yeah. Exactly. So really looking at it from that angle, streamlining that process is very important, you know, to the continued viability of these buildings really. And also too, I think that a lot of it was also trying to develop kind of a comprehensive body of documentation. You know, I mean, it's like any other large institution. You have, you know, maintenance crews who might not necessarily be trained in the most historically sensitive practices. And so forming that body of documentation and, you know, using this as a tool to then help the maintenance crews, you know, make more historically informed decisions about appropriate materials and such was really a very strong priority. Or even identifying what is historic and what is in the first place. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Great. So how many buildings did you get to document? I documented 14 buildings total and I have four currently in progress. So like I had mentioned, I've been rehired and through the end of the semester to continue this work. So still working on those. Yeah. You mentioned you have some crazy amount of data to meet earlier. It's quite a bit. As it stands right now, it's a little over 500 pages. It's just, it's kind of a beast to tell you the truth, having my computer has been straining under the weight of all of it. So how does that, taking all that data, that gets, you know, stored or documented somewhere? So this is not a printed out thing. This will be in UVM's files per building. What sort of... Chippos, I'm assuming. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's true. So everybody's going to have copies of everything and stored. I'm just curious because, you know, at Shelburne Museum we have 66 buildings, 37 of them historic and we have all kinds of several different ways to plug all the information into different places. So people can find it on OneNote, they can find it in files by building name, and then of course the files that are created every time somebody does something is a crazy mishmash over here, you know. So how is this information going to be available to the people at UVM? Let's leave the state out of it for a while. As I understand it, it'll be an internal document through the UVM planning department. I'm not really too sure what form that'll take, whether that'll be online or in an actual bound volume, and then I know Devon briefly mentioned the possibility of including some of it as a supplemental documentation for national register inclusion. So that I would guess would be available through the state's online resource center. But again, I'm not entirely sure on that. So it's really not designed to be public information, it's really designed to be... Really supposed to be internal. Yeah. Yeah, that makes so much sense. So what were you looking for specifically? So, you know, in the field we talk about character defining feature. What gives a space its own particular feeling? And so going around and looking at baseboards, cornices, door trim, really you name it, you know, one of the things that was most interesting was looking at the variety of decorative ironwork. Really wasn't expecting to see so much, especially in Williams Hall. And there was one particular room that was really, really beautifully preserved, and it was really, really cool to be in. Because I mean, so much of Williams has been, you know, covered in 19 layers of paint and, you know, they've replaced been floors and everything. But so to walk in that space and have it be so original was really, really something. And what kind of decorative ironwork what are we talking about? All types. I mean, wrought iron, you know, a lot of like Art Nouveau stuff, just really, really interesting, interesting details. Yeah, I mean, a lot of like door hinges and stuff like that, too. Yeah, just really, really fantastic, fantastic look. Got a lot of pictures. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Oh, what I'm doing here. No. There we go. Yeah, there we go. Oh, nice. Yeah. So this. Click off that. Yeah. Perfect. There we go. Okay. Is this the alumni house? This is the alumni house. So this is, just to pull up some quick pictures, this is the entry hall. And so, you know, I believe the first column, because they gave us a sheet to fill out. And so we go through and do columns, doors, cornices, baseboards, and I would fill out one of these sheets for every space. And honestly, it was very nice to have it laid out like that. That's helpful. So you did interior and exterior? Just interior. Just interior. Just interior. Yep. Exactly. So, yeah, number one was columns. And I picked the alumni house for this evening because it's really, really fantastic craftsmanship. Everything in all of the carvings that you see in the building were executed by a carver named Albert Wittekin. Wittekin. Wittekin? Who I didn't know, but apprentice with the Norcross Brothers, who were, H.H. Richardson and McKinney at a Mites Preferred Contractor. Oh, wow. So there's a real, real strong lineage of craftsmanship. It's just absolutely fantastic. It's glorious. They moved his house from Winooski to Burlington. It's a gothic revival. Really? Yeah, yeah. I know all this because we did a bunch of research. Okay. Because we did the restoration of the exterior carvings on the alumni house. Right, right. And Albert Wittekin came up a lot. And we started and we documented the other buildings he's worked on all over the place. Right. He moved here from Brooklyn, I think. That sounds right. Yeah. Brooklyn to Winooski, and then he worked all over UVM's campus and stuff. Yeah. I think he also did the carvings for it. It's a big Queen Anne on Pearl Street. It might be 371 Pearl. Yeah. I think it's that one. Yeah. For sure. I noticed in that picture you were just showing the Swanton marble on the farthest place around. Yes. Absolutely. And you were just showing it in swan. What makes it weird? Well, it's just... It's somebody who's never seen it. Well, if you think of marble, you think of, you know, berry marble, white with like, veining in it and stuff, or occasionally the really high-style Victorian marble, which is often marbleized on top of marble to make it fancier looking. But that marble looks like this, like, almost like redstone with white chunks in it and some veining. And it's interesting because it's also, sorry, I'm not sure if I can... No, go for it. No. It's really neat. I had never seen it before. I was up at the Swanton Library and they have a whole bunch of it and their whole front entrance is made of that. I'm like, that's so cool. It's marble. And they're like, oh, it's Swanton marble. So now I've run into it in other places. And now you know what it is. And now I know what it is. And ironically, it's a very similar redstone kind of marble mixture is in rice lumber as their countertops. Oh, interesting. Because when they demolished and they were excavating all that stuff, there was so much of it. They hadn't polished. They hate it because it splits all the time when you're polishing it. Oh, well. Boring anecdotal work. There's problems to have. Yeah. Yeah. What other pictures do you have to show us? So we have another view of one of the columns, another blurry view of one of the columns. There you go. And yeah, so really, I mean, looking around, one of the things that I love the most about this space and really the alumni house in general is the clear sense of hierarchy that's developed in terms of spaces. This paneling rise to, I want to say, was about 70 inches or so above the floor. And then when you went upstairs, the panel of design was very similar. The moldings were very similar, but everything was just very slightly simplified. I don't know if I'll bring up a picture, but. What year are we talking about here too? I believe this was 1891. I believe the house was built. And yeah, I mean, looking at just the sheer variety of woodwork, so the main hall is done in oak, the music room and library were both done in cherry, and then the dining room is done in mahogany. And just, I mean, just in terms of sheer craftsmanship, it's absolutely incredible. It's just a very, very delicate bead and reel, you know, and the really highly figured oak is just fantastic. So were there records to help you identify the wood, or did you take samples, or was it just visible? Really visible. I mean, especially for oak, oak is so distinctive to look at. You know, but outside of that, I relied somewhat on the National Register nominations, although, I mean, for really the early ones, the 60s, 70s, they're really kind of sparse, so there's just not much to work with in there. But honestly, working with you, Ron, that's really what taught me to identify this stuff. You know, I remember, I think it was some of the trim from Perry Hall that you had up there, and that was mahogany, and then, you know, so just really kind of developing that hands-on Yeah. Who owned the house? Did you get into the history of the house at all? Oh, jeez, yes. I have it on the sheet. That's a scapegoat. I'm supposed to know it also, and I couldn't remember. That's why I threw you under the bus. Edward Wells, that's it. Edward Wells, that's right. It was the drug money. The drug money, no. And that big second empire on the corner, that was his brother's house. Yeah, it was a celery mixture. Somebody's celery, something. They bought the patent from this small family. Yeah, it was all kinds of fun tinctures. Yeah, opium to it, and then sold it as a cure-all for everything. And then it was right around 19... When did the FDA start in the early 1900s? Not 1920, I think it was the teens, or maybe even 1906, but it was probably Teddy Roosevelt. But that's when he started cracking down on cocaine and Coca-Cola, and opium and all these... It's amazing what was just available to everybody. It shut down a lot of businesses. Yes. Tell us about, other than the ironwork, and I don't know if you have any pictures of any of that, but what are the surprising things came out of this project or did you not expect? Honestly, I would say the sheer variety of things. You know, when I think about it, really UVM's campus is a very, very interesting microcosm of the broader preservation world. In terms of architectural styles, I mean I could name an example of almost every academic architectural style in the United States that can be found on UVM's campus. So in terms of honing my ability to parse through those distinctions and see the commonalities, but also what makes them different and also distinctive elements and construction techniques from each period, that was really one thing that I wasn't expecting. The degree to which it would hone my eye for that sort of thing. And did you find that there was a ponderance of the high style versus vernacular or good balance? Honestly, it was a very, very even split. For a building like the Alumni House, that does a very, very high style building, Grass Mountain is very similar. But for every Alumni House in Grass Mountain, there's also the Jacobs House, which is just a very, very simple, you know, Eve's Front Greek Revival House that to most outward appearances wouldn't contain a whole lot there. But it's really, really interesting to be able to look through and to see what distinguishes a Greek revival molding from a classical revival or, you know, Queen Anne or something along those lines. It's really, really interesting to work for sure what people were doing and also maybe so I'm always, you mentioned earlier, the hierarchy of floors. How intricate and how detailed the first show. Front tobacco house and higher up you go, less and less. But it's always interesting to me to see. And also, I think we were lucky probably in the Burlington area because of the lumber industry, you know, we weren't the fancy town. We were a lumber town. We had much distinctive moldings in even vernacular architecture. We had a lot of craftsmen, a lot of crafts. Yeah. So what is the period that you covered? In, I mean, everything from 18, 1804, when Grass Mountain was built to The ones you haven't done yet. The ones I haven't done yet. No, but in terms of what I covered, I think the latest was 1921. I did Ira Allen, so that was built in 1921 to 25, I believe. Real range. Real range. In terms of age and style, I mean just fantastic, really. So you mentioned modernists coming up. What would that be? Martial life science. The ones that are occurring immediately. Martial life science. Raul is another one. Where is that one? It's kind of, if you go... Spell it. So if you know where the library is right in the middle, you go up the hill a little bit towards the medical center side in there. I think you can, I believe it shares access with Given and all the rest of the medical center buildings. They're all kind of connected down there. Yeah, it's confusing in there for us lay people who didn't... Well, that was one of the best things about my undergrad when I figured out how to get from the very top of campus up by Jeffords all the way down to central campus by staying inside. That was a highlight. That's so funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what's the age of either one of those buildings? 50 years or older? 50 years. I think... I want to say Raul was... I think Raul was the more recent. Marsh was built in 63 or 64 and Raul was maybe 67 somewhere in that range. Yeah, Raul was really cool though. Like I said, I don't know if it's my favorite style necessarily but I have gained a real appreciation for modern architecture and everything that goes into it. Whereas most people look at and say oh, there's not much there. Now I can really see what's there and that's been a real nice paradigm shift to have. I mean that's really the crux of all of this, right? Whether it's the cathedral that we're talking about or old buildings or something like Converse Hall where you can see it's really visual, what is historic and what isn't. When you finally understand how things were put together, what the thinking was, what went behind it, the architectural decisions that they made, the design decisions, then it's like in a sense, but to look at a building like oh, it's just a slab of concrete and glass. Now you're talking Brutalist. The thing that makes them all interesting to me, everybody thinks I just love Queen Anna Victorians which I like them but modernist, brutalist architecture, it's a timeline of our built environment and the decisions, products and tastes yeah, tastes, but what was available. So the thing about modern architecture you look at it and you go oh big windows, cheap materials flat rooms, cheap, cheap, cheap but it was efficient, it was quick, it was post-war and they took those constraints and made interesting buildings. That's what I love and then these architect, it doesn't have to be the high style modern stuff we have lots of examples, we had a home store about that, specifically for over in DeForest I think there's a bunch of them and they're just neat. Yeah, they are and it presents a really interesting dilemma for preservationists too because a lot of them weren't built to last, right? They weren't built for longevity and here we are trying to save them so it gives us a really So Mike is historic now, right? I think originally originated in Texas somewhere and the guy that invented its house is now trying to maintain it and restore it. Yeah, all the the veneers and you know, the faux finishes, all of it. Oh, you mentioned that and where did I see that? Something you typed up or sent to us about the faux finishes? Yeah, so really the most distinctive example that I found is it's on the south William Street entrance to Jacob's house which is currently occupied by a CAPS, so a counseling and psychiatry services and as far as I can tell it's one area on the Newell Post and continuing up to the second floor but it's the most gorgeous tiger stripe finish I wish I could pull up a picture, I would have to dig through everything to find it but it's really, really cool. And also too, looking at Grassmount I had never known really because I mean it's occupied by the UVM foundation so I wouldn't have really had any need to go over there but I had no idea but it's according to most sources one of the most intact significant examples of historic interior decorative painting in the United States. There were two separate periods, I think the earlier was 1820 and later was 1840 and the earlier period the home was owned by a C captain I believe and so he brought several artisans in from Italy who spent the better part of two years going through and doing decorative painting on every wall. Fast forward 30 years the house has changed hands several times and the new lady of the house hates it, it's disgusting she wants it covered and wants it gone. Paints over all of it and does a second layer of painting over top. That gets covered when it's purchased by the University in 1895 and remains hidden until they embark on a campaign to restore it in the 80s and Kathy Keller from the UVM foundation was fantastic she brought me around and she showed me several examples of the decoration but also a real treasure show of documents from that period. They had contracted with a Boston architectural firm I forget the exact name and architectural conservation but really really just fantastic fantastic literature to dive through I mean I love technical documentation and manuals and all that sort of thing so it's right up my alley. It makes me want to go see it. Are these buildings open to people? For the most part yeah I started to and that's the other thing that's what was nice about this too was that it taught me how to interact with people honestly you know because it's a fair thing you know it's not an everyday project you know some some random kid shows up with a camera he's like let me walk around your building and take some pictures like that's you know it gives you some people pause so learning how to make contact and you know to really just develop those interpersonal skills was very very nice so yeah. Plus you're pretty sketchy looking. I know you know I debated shaving today. But you bring up a really good point as preservationist I mean I can't tell you how many time and you I'm sure of both experience the same thing you're out on the street you've got your camera pointed at somebody's house they're gonna come out all defensive like what are you doing usually as they think you're the tax man or something. The man. Just the man. They're there in trouble or something. The non-gender specific the man. It's a very inclusive term. Yeah maybe we should like talk to you and do an interior finishes elements tour I think that would be fabulous. I've done work in there so I've done some of the woodwork restoration in there. I haven't seen it. I want to talk. Just walk right up and go in. And then I was gonna say off camera but you know I started my career as a decorative painter in the city so when I saw faux blanc, faux finishes I was like where's that gosh darn portfolio I want to show it to Will you know next time I get him into the shop Saturday. Saturday. Yeah good good good. Well it's pretty cool it sounds like a great experience and you've still got 13-14 more. Yeah. You've done that. You're working down in Montpelier right. No no no you're working down in West Haven. West Haven. Yeah yeah. For where? What's that about? It's a condition assessment for the Gallic farmstead. It's a 1600 acre property and I had no idea but it is apparently the only place in the state of Vermont that has lizards and rattlesnakes. Native? Native. Native and still existing so it's honestly been great for the past couple Thursdays I've gone down there with my friend Lucas and they set us up on a you know one of the things we just get to bomb around a big old property, look at barns in the field and you know dodge the snakes and rat poop and everything else. I think there is one of the snakes that's protected right? Yes. And I live in the New North End here and I was walking my dog and I saw a dead little teeny weeny one like this big yeah. What kind of snake? The little baby rattlesnake the Vermont rattlesnake I forget its exact name. No not up here. Yes. They don't exist up here. It did. Yes. I got to report it and it had the rattle. Do you still have it? No. It decomposed after a while. It's gone now. Yeah. I can show you the picture later. Okay. Alright. Because I'm skeptical because it's weird to me from New York up all the way up through the Arondacks. That's why he was dead because you know they're not around here. The Arondacks are chock-a-block full of copperheads and rattlesnakes all the way up to the top and Vermont is not. It's a rarity if not never. Anything I say but yeah. No. I don't believe a lot of things you say but not everything you say. Anyway it was great to have you here with us and sharing this fabulous research and I would love to see more pictures and hear more about it so I may have to talk to you about it. Yeah. We'll have to have you back on so you can like fill us in as you get further along and do more stuff. Or maybe do a talk or something. It sounds like a great experience you know you really embraced it you know a lot of people smarten up and run away from historic preservation when they know and you know as a student it's really cool to get a project that you can really sink your teeth into and that gives you some really cool stuff to work with and actually discovering and learning along the way. Right. And have a lot of autonomy while you do it which is cool. Yeah. Trust is good. Good for you. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Oh yeah yeah and thanks for all you're doing. We need more preservationists and we need to. We do. We'll talk off camera about and we need more tradespeople too we'll talk off camera about that. Bob just emailed me tonight. Oh yeah. Yeah yeah so we're pushing for that. I just want to thank everybody for tuning in thanks Lisa. You're welcome. Throw this together Will. Thank you and thank you for Saturday ahead of time. Absolutely. And happy birthday again. Hey thanks. Appreciate it. And thanks everybody else for tuning in to CCTV live at 525 in preservation Burlington. More information on your Burlington history our tours and events or to get the marker for your historic house go to preservationburlington.org and we'll see you next month and we'll see you in November at Champlain College and we'll see you in October at at our annual awards and the annual awards coming out. Yes we almost forgot that one. October 18th October 18th 6 p.m. at Main Street Landing and Bob Blanchard talking about his new book Lost Burlington which is not as depressing as I thought it was going to be because there's so much there's still so much in Burlington and yeah he has he puts a positive spin on the stuff we did lose so we can learn from it. Hopefully we'll learn from it. Hopefully we'll learn from it. Thanks everybody and have a great night.