 This is a pop-up OGM call on Friday, October 16th, 2020. It is, what, 17 or 19 days to the election? Something just crazy like that? Absolutely crazy like that. And that's a little bit, we got our ballots in the mail yesterday and filled them out and seal them and we're gonna drop them in our buildings mailbox today and we also have methods of checking that they were received and all that. So we signed up for all of that, got ready for the whole thing, but it felt good, it felt good to make little dots. And... Methods of checking is like the registered or how did you do that? There's a slip that comes with the ballot that says to check to see whether we received it and whether it was counted, go sign up at this government website. And so we got immediate acknowledgement that the ballot had been sent to us because we received it. So as soon as they get it back, we should get another acknowledgement or something like that. Hey Pete, hey Klaus. Here in Minnesota, the lines are kind of crazy as the polling papers too. You're talking about... Is my voice, is my voice okay? Your voice is now clear, yeah. It's better. Yeah. You wanna recite a poem or something so we can test it more? Can explain that image. That's an awfully big Yoda. Network, hopefully this, hopefully the voice at least works. Yes, Klaus, are you not in your usual spot? No, no, I'm on the Oregon coast, which has terrible internet. They didn't design it for getting in there. What do you want, coastline or internet? I mean, you know, we have choices to make in the world. That's right. Cool, I will change to a more peaceful background. So I invited this call because we have a workshop coming up and I think we're making a really interesting and valuable effort to pull together what it is we all think that OGM might be in due. And I think it's a good and noble cause and how might we sort of organize to do that? And we've already in the call that preceded this one, we've already tackled the document that we've got shared and so we've got a bunch there. And yesterday you heard the description of Matt's design for the workshop and I posted that document for comments which got some comments. So I wanted to kind of start with just taking a breath and saying, how do you feel about the workshop design? What are we missing, if anything? And then dive into some of the questions but let me just pause for a second and see how anybody's feeling about what the prospects are for this design. I find it impossible to understand workshop designs with bullet points. So I'll show up and see what makes sense and I'll read it. Bullet points are like, it's like a trapeze and I keep falling down to the next one and I miss them, you know, it's just these bullets. I find it hard to make sense of. Maybe bullets are to you as digital clocks are to me. I discovered, I haven't worn a wristwatch in a really long time but I discovered I could look at the time and then look back at my work and completely have forgotten what time it was and it took me a long time to realize that I used to remember the angle of the hands of the clock on an amulet clock face and that that that would persist in my mind so I could sort of get, oh right, 10 to 10 or something like that. And just glancing at numbers unless I figured out some other way to kind of tag it or mark it just like flushed right through the buffers. That's why I chose the old clock face model on my digital watch. I have the same experience. It's just, I don't wanna see string of numbers. I wanna see the clock face. And yet we're of the generation where there were analog clock faces and we carried wristwatches and we learned to do that, right? We conditioned ourselves that the angles meant anything at all because it's a weird way to think about a day. I have that with Alexa too. Asking her the time and hearing it spoken is different than, and better usually than, better than digital, yeah. I live in Switzerland surrounded by clocks with faces everywhere, can't get away from them. The time that I would say attention to a clock face is wondering when that period would be over in school. And also living surrounded by churches and church bells every quarter hour, you don't have to look, yeah. Yeah, I think I was writing, but I was writing yesterday evening because my sense is very similar to one that Kevin just expressed. I have a really hard time looking at line item steps and creating a story in my head around that concept. And I have to have a story to function. And so I've been working for the last eight years since my retirement on constructing a story centered around food. And I have come to the conclusion that food is on par with the energy system. We cannot possibly regenerate our way back to a future unless we have a way to, first of all, take, stop putting carbon into the atmosphere and then taking a lot of it out, gigatons out. And the only practical way of doing that is to put it into the soil. And the only way that works is by changing the agricultural practices for a number of reasons beyond carbon sequestration. And I think we have reached a precipice in the food system where the destruction of soil and the destruction of environmental ecosystem of ecosystems that support agriculture is so severe that they are really just a few years left. And it takes a few years to convert the food systems into something else. So I see this as truly an existential crisis. And I mean, I'm having looked at this for some time. I'm just terrified to see us continue to drift without really acting on this. So two things cause one, in solidarity for what you're saying, here's an aerial picture of a farmer who did this sculpture with his crop recently. And I don't think this is Photoshop. I think this is an actual thing, the build back better. There's this tractor right there. And so that, and then the second thing is. There's totally a crop circle. Yeah, exactly. It was made by aliens. Made by aliens who wanted to build the earth back better and are waiting for us to extinguish ourselves. It's a cookbook. It's a cookbook. So the second thing I wanna say is, OGM is not specifically about energy or about the food system or about whatever, but many of us, including me, are extremely passionate about what you just said. So what is, I'm interested in each of us what we think the relationship is between specific issues and OGM. So how does rescuing the food system, improving the food system, fit into what OGM does and how we do it? I'll offer an oversimplified viewpoint. Awesome. And this as long as it's not in a bullet point. And I agree with the word piece about things. And I really like Neil's diagrams because they're easier to conceptually understand as well as see where other things drift. But I see OGM as the massive umbrella or the center of the pod from which extend lots of different dimensions. And they may be specific contextual ones like agriculture or earth renewal or sea renewal or air quality or education or arts in science. Or they're just an infinite number of areas that are all part of OGM as society evolves and we with it will decide collectively what the most important ones are for our survival. And there will be more people flocking to try to fix those problems. Just as right now there are more people flocking to fix COVID instead of other medical issues. So I see OGM as encompassing, really encompassing all of it, encompassing the content but also encompassing the wise wherefores and sort of visionary structures and also encompassing the pragmatic execution involves people at very many different levels. Many of whom are gonna choose to participate in one of what I would call the pods or spokes or something because their expertise is a combination of technology and milk production or something. That's why I see it like huge dandelion with all these dendrites in so many different directions but there needs to be some organizational capacity to go between the levels of bigness to see the uniting common threads that are essential to virtually all of it, communication, good-hearted people, capabilities and so forth. So it's very three-dimensional and that makes it harder to represent on a piece of paper. Does levels of bigness map to what Neil calls sort of the vertical integration of it? Okay, Charles then George. I would just chime in. I had a bit of a conversation with Neil earlier and we've touched on this in the OGM sessions as well in regard to communication channels and platforms and also knowledge repository. And I don't have one sort of specific statement or question there, but just pointing to emphasize the importance of those things. However that's gonna happen, what Judy just said, it has to happen with communication within channels and platforms, whatever those are, they have to be common enough to actually have connectivity and it has to grow in the garden. Thanks. Thanks Charles, go ahead George. So the umbrella metaphor is very seductive. The only problem with it, that there are hundreds of umbrellas that want to be the center of everything so that each of these umbrellas imagines itself as the center of the universe, at least the center of the planetary universe so that all the other things come under it. And that's a good thing because that just means it's a reflection that there are more and more people recognize the need for some kind of integration. The challenge, which is the challenge in itself is a good thing because it will help us grow the capability that we don't have yet now, which is seeing all these integrative hubs as an ecosystem of hubs. And if it is an ecosystem, then the next kind of interesting inquiry question that what is the distinctive gift of each niche in that ecosystem in which we are, OGM is one of the niches, what is our specific contribution to the larger ecosystem of integrative hubs? And if we are looking at this way, then I say that what we need and what we have is, sufficient commonality, which is everybody is longing for and working for a more beautiful world that our heart knows possible. That's a sufficient commonality. And what are the complementary differences? So the complementary difference comes from the unique composition of this group. The unique composition that none of the other umbrellas have the same mix of people, the same mix of talents, histories of relationships, resources, and taking that into account, we may be able to listen for the evolutionary purpose, not to define what our purpose should be. That's my only contribution to the overall design and the workshop, that I think we should not aim for defining what is the purpose, because it will change as we are getting more educated about the situation that itself keeps evolving. But what we can do is sensing our group that is already large enough, it's not only the people who are here, that this group is already large enough to think of it as an ecosystem inside of a much larger ecosystem. And if so, then given our talents and intelligences and resources and intellectual histories and orientations, given all that, what can be the most distinctive unique contribution to the overall evolutionary process? And the only other things that I would like to add to what I just said, that when we sense into, listen for, to discover the evolutionary purpose, a good place to take into consideration the generator impetus, where this initiative came from. And it seems to me that it is Jerry's brain. And Jerry is a multifaceted person, just like all of us, but one of the characteristics that she has, and I feel that many of us shares, is a love for collective knowledge, collective capabilities, growing collective intelligence. And if this is one of the, if this is part of our DNA, our collective DNA, I would say, that doesn't mean that each of us has to have the very same. It just means that we as a group, that's one of our strengths. And if this is one of the strengths, this can be possibly the foundation for the complementary difference from the other umbrellas. This can be also the gift that we bring to all the other umbrellas, or competences, talents, some expertise, some resources in building collective intelligence. Why it is needed? Well, we need to, that doesn't mean that we have it all. It just means that we have some readiness for creating the framework, tools, methods, conditions necessary for mutual learning across the various movements, initiatives, projects for civilizational renewal. I'd like to riff on like five things you said, George. That was really super, super useful. Thank you. One is that I've been describing RGM as a container, as a vessel, as a place that could hold different kinds of things. Pete was suggesting an umbrella, which we just brought up here. And then another version of umbrella is a tent. Everybody talks about the big tent, which is generally used in politics. And I like those. But originally when thinking about OGM, we were using a whole bunch of ecosystem metaphors. I talked about OGM being an estuary and also being a mycelial network. And then I think the mycelial analogy works really, really nicely for what you just said, because I think I told the story many calls ago that trees are not really good at getting minerals out of the ground. Fungi are really good at getting minerals out of the ground. Fungi are not very good at getting sugars out of anything. Trees are really good at that. So there's an exchange in the root system. There's basically a peer trading that goes on between what the mushroom was good at doing and what the tree was good at doing. And together they basically swap out the kinds of things they need to thrive. And I'm dramatically oversimplifying a really complicated part of nature, because there's lots of other things going on. But those kinds of exchanges where the mycelium, I'll just say knows what it's good at or becomes more aware of what it's good at so that it can do more good mycelial work I think would be really, really cool. So I really appreciate that. And then the idea that our purpose is emergent I love because I think we're going to discover it. It will unfold in front of us as we sort of, as we pick a target, say that's a good statement of where we're aiming, we're going to discover as we approach it that it has to morph or it's going to morph or its need has morphed or something like that. And I think that that emergent purpose or evolutionary purposes are really, really lovely thing to do. And then the last thing is about our, what might our purpose head toward and to look at sort of the genesis of it. The first group of people we invited into the conversation were a mix of techno geeks who love visualizations, explanations and visual analysis. And then a bunch of people who care very deeply about facilitation, presencing human scale stuff. And some of those, some of the geekier people also cared a lot about reliable, distributed linked contextualized data. And that was kind of the original mix. And a piece of the original mission was wouldn't it be nice if there was an open collaborative brain like thing, but that quickly opened up into the brain is just one of many kinds of visualizations. And unless we learn to trust each other again, we're never going to use any of this visualization for any good anyway. And then storytelling became a really big part of it because many of us I think realize that it isn't so much the bulletproof logical argument that we make that's going to convince anybody. It's taking somebody by the hand. It's telling a story. It's extremely personal and much more emotional than I think we think it is. So Judy, you are muted. Alas, my clock was timing. I'm sorry. I think umbrella was really the wrong word because I see this as a hub, but I also see it as a progressive hub, not a singular hub. I mean, there is a perhaps singular hub, but as this dandelion starts to become wholly dendritic, I see an OGM hub thing in each of the dendritic cores so that it becomes really complexly interdimensional and allows each hub to grow as it should grow, but with the facilitation and the sense of heart and united purpose that has characterized our discussions of OGM. And I know that's pretty idealistic, but I think we think of ourselves not as a fixed hub, but as a caravan hub or a hub throwing seed hubs in lots of different directions and allowing those hubs to be somewhat specialized by the needs of the particular dandelion that's grown there. Then it becomes catalytic, which is what I think is the essence of what might be our super power. Well, one way of interpreting that is that there's kind of a tool and ideas contagion across the different movements, across the various umbrellas. And so for instance, Piragaji, which Charles has been involved in a lot, is a complete near neighbor community of people who have a whole series of things they've been working on, springing from Howard Reingold's work on virtual communities, online communities and how to do that better. I've known Howard forever. I'm just thrilled to figure out how do we and they do this better and the kinds of things I think we could bring to Piragaji is let's instrument it so that it's at hand for anybody who's trying to do group process and just trying to do things like that. That seems to me to be like an easy opening and easy entry so that the knowledge isn't trapped inside of a PDF file, for example, or even HTML pages that are kind of lonely, but not linked and connected. So something like that seems like an opening salvo. Roman, nice to see you. So off to Charles. Well, so you set me up just to give a nod to the lineage that George actually had acknowledged in some of his opening comments, some of the documents, which is Douglas Engelbart and the knowledge repository or the dynamic knowledge repository and maybe what we're looking at is a federation of knowledge. Or knowledge garden. I mean, Jack Park has been working on this for a really long time. There's a whole bunch of us that are sort of thinking about some kind of a federated knowledge space where even knowledge is not a great word to use there. But I think you mentioned Piragaji and the Kiko lab, the Collective Intelligence Collaboratory are a couple that are working on our knowledge repositories. And if each of us, including for sure OGM, sort of tends to our gardens, then we can start to connect them up. Awesome. Mr. Jones and then Klaus. Yeah, I'm thinking about the network architecture that Judy suggested of a hub or even a module of a hub that gives a part to the other nodes in the network. And I think of a couple of things. I mean, you know, Visa does that and that's that kind of network where it's a little thing that enables a bunch of transactions and your bank can be on top of it. Mitochondria does the same thing in every cell. It's a foreign entity. And it extracts a big, you know, to give you oxygen and then take some of the food. When we built SoCAP, we built it so that, and the Toyota Commons was such a total failure when they tried to export it. I don't know what it did. They had bullet points and plans for conquest. Can I briefly interject? So a friend of mine was in the middle of the Curitic Alliance. One of their problems, I think, a huge part of their problem was that for any new client, they made them sign a contract up front for what they were going to do before they had ever developed any relationships, before they had any emergent to anything. And so they were basically putting the car way before the horse. And they just, they just, and that, that's the only thing I know was broken about it, but it sounded extremely broken. Sorry, back to you. Thank you. Well, anyway, when we built SoCAP, there were a lots of bigger events with people with more equity, but we went to everybody and said to you, what would make yours a little better? And we gave them all a little bit and they tried camping out on ours and we were this hive of other things without being the center. And I think what we're doing with friends and family funding for entrepreneurs who don't have a rich uncle seems to be the same kind of thing, the thing we talked about yesterday. They're all these debt funds that are trying to reach African-American entrepreneurs, but they don't need debt. They need something like equity that gives you a deduction for coming in and revenue stream. You can find the little things that complete the ecosystem. You know, like the mitochondria. I mean, we're a multi-fail organism because we agreed on a transactional relationship with mitochondria and all of ourselves. Yeah, exactly. And the mitochondria are symbiotic bacteria that got sucked into ourselves to help create energy. I'm cause. Yeah, I was thinking that one way to, to consider this kind of idea is community because we are, we are building and supporting community, but I mean now actual community, you know, population groups, like Kevin is focusing on, for example, and they have multiple needs. They have needs in form of energy of housing or food and so on. And the problem with thinking about just hub or what it would be the purpose of hub is a form of synchronization. Now, because between, between these different systems, there must be connectivity that, that has to have a common purpose. So the system drifts into a common direction. I don't know if I explained this properly here, but when we build food, for example, food is everywhere, right? Every community, whether you build a hospital or a theme park or whatever it is, there's a food component as part of that because that's the core of our needs. And so I see that, I see that the, I'm looking more for an outcome based definition of, of what OGM is, is, is working towards, if that makes sense. I'm sorry, it's a little chopped up here, but I hope I'm directionally explaining what I'm, what I'm thinking. We're all just thinking out loud here and I really appreciate it. And so I think that makes sense. Romer, and then back to Judy. We're getting really bad feedback. We can't, now you're muted, but when you unmuted, there was really bad feedback and I can't figure out from where. Can I unmuting again? Okay, you're. Can you hear me now? Yes. Yes. Okay. And you no longer sound like you're being held captive in a Klingon spaceship. So that's really good. I don't know what happened here. We are getting an echo still. So there, there is still a reverb, but go ahead, we can hear you now. Okay. Well, certainly I see OGM as a bridge that we are still building on it as we cross over it. But the question here is, what do we bridge here? So in a bigger context, what I see is we're bridging humanity with the resources that they will be needing in order to uplift their lives. And as mentioned by most of you, these resources is finite. It's like in the container. We have knowledge. We have technology. We have some other type of resources and it's fine. We're dealing with like close to an infinite needs of the society. And this is everybody. So the way I see it is that we have this capability of. Having certain level of clarity on what we can prioritize short term and long term and being able to effectively provide resources needed, considering that it is finite in nature. And to Jujib's point, it's also a hub because of the, how we can cover all these needs by the society. It's very wide. And I guess as we move along, having more clarity on how we will do this and how we will transform this into more action-based, action-based strategy is something that, you know, we're really, really looking forward to. And I saw close email last night and yeah, it's about action, but can we do now in order to address these needs? But with all these fast needs that we have, that we are facing, I think clarity is crucial. So we can really focus on what we can effectively handle. And I have a suspicion that your laptop microphone and your, your earbud microphones are both somehow picking up sound. And that might be the reason, but I don't, I don't, I don't know. Yeah, but we can, we can sort that out. And I wrote in the chat that a piece of OGM attacks the landscape's assumptions. And by which I, by which I mean, there's a thing about OGMing, which is trying to assume abundance mentality rather than scarcity mentality. And if we treat things right, if we treat one another right, if we treat the earth right, there is abundance of everything. There's plenty, plenty to feed everybody. We're just screwing up how we're doing everything. We're just terrible stewards of all these comments and all these assets that we share that keep us alive, like the food system. We're just, we, we, we, a model for how to do it, aid our brains that was based on sort of industrial scientific thinking. And then it just ran the table for a bunch of decades and led us to this really weird place we're in right now where we're endangering the planet. And I would, there were two articles in my feed this morning, which were about, you know, how we're, how we're basically catastrophically affected the natural, natural systems. So Doug. That was faster than I thought. As I'm listening, I feel a paradox between the metaphors of, let's say the umbrella and the hub. And the idea of open hubs and umbrellas are closed systems or tending to close systems. They're located. But open really implies a welcoming permeability that has a different feel to me. So I'm just putting that out. Well, I just, I think we, I understand the importance of words, but part of what I grapple with is, I see OGM as a process that embeds a lot of different dimensions. And so trying to capture it in a single noun is a bit challenging. Because I kind of use it as a verb, like we're OGMing X process, X event, X group, X trajectory. And we're trying to apply best principles of both contextual knowledge, creation of new knowledge and dissemination and action based on knowledge. And that makes it really complex, but really rich and then adaptable by each component for that dimension, which helps them the most. And I don't know if that makes sense, but that's, to your point, I think we can consider this as a stackable hub from the technical perspective. Pete, you want to jump in? And Romer, would you mind muting between jumping in text? I mentioned it in chat. I think one of the things that resonates for me or doesn't resonate for me is resonating is when we talk about how we OGM together as a verb. And when it feels like we're starting to talk about what is OGM and how can we bound it, then it resonates last. I think for umbrella, when I hear umbrella or when I thought of umbrella, and I think I got it from you, Jerry. But for me, it really is, it kind of conveys the verb part of OGMing. What are all these different things doing together rather than how does the umbrella contain us? So I want to mention a couple of other metaphor things that work for me. I think we want to federate. I think we need to figure out how federation works, how things are loosely coupled to use David Weinberger's phrase, small pieces loosely joined. Another thing that resonates for me is flotilla. And I feel like that actually came from April on an OGM call. But a bunch of when we describe hubs and umbrellas and, you know, sets of them, it's more like it's not or, you know, a flock of birds or something like that. You can see an outline of a thing, but it's actually the rules and processes that work between smaller groups or individuals that make the whole thing, the thing. So I feel like we, the thing that we want to define mostly is how the swarm works, right? What are the rules of swarming rather than what the swarm is or how they can say in the swarm? So then riffing on that a little bit, I think also the, one of the things that's been tricky for me is thinking about the permeability, the membrane, you know, the barrier between you're participating or you're not participating. And I guess if we had rules for engagement for the flotilla or the swarm, which kind of naturally included things that resonated with, you know, the purposes of the swarm and kind of anti-resonated kind of pushed away things that didn't fit into the swarm well. I think that's kind of a step in the right direction. Years ago, after some conference, I bought the domain raftify.com because three quarters of the Earth's surface is ocean. Why don't we learn to live on the ocean? And in order to do that well, we'd have to learn how to raft. And rafting is just the lashing together of a couple of units, right? And I think that's another sort of metaphor here is that, and these things are voluntary and temporary. And so the rafts can be reconfigured, and communities can move and evolve. Once you start building up a whole surface area, then what you get is like floating islands. And if you ever want to lose a couple of hours online, go look up floating gardens and floating islands in history. And indigenous cultures around the world that did that in lakes for raising food, super interesting, and for living on top of. But I think there's lots of interesting metaphors here. And Klaus is asking in the chat an interesting question that will take us in a different direction. What would a potential client for a GM look like? Who would benefit from its IP? Which we can go in. But I want to pause for a second because we have 20 minutes left in the call. I'd like to end at the top of the hour and see what's where we are. Like, what do we... Also, are we trying to prepare in some particular ways for the workshop? Is this specifically relevant to that? This is very specifically related to the workshop, and we could spend some of our time puzzling through how best to build, for example, to build an emergent set of answers to the questions in Matt's workshop document as we even prepare some of our points of view about what to do before, before the 22nd, before the 29th. Because the whole design of the workshop is that we put opinions into this as we head into the workshop and then watch each other's opinions and then try to synthesize them to bring them into something. So that will require some affordances. Right now we've got a couple of Google Docs, right? What might that look like? We could go there. But I'm feeling like this discussion so far is actually doing a nice job of turning the soil for the issues that we need to think about as we enter the workshop as well. So this feels very fruitful to me for the workshop. And by the way, this is a home tree from Avatar, which feels like a reasonable context for what we're talking about. And George, I like your Dolly. Other thoughts? I mean, one thing that would catalyze our actions very quickly would be getting client work. And as I described before, and yesterday's call even, there have been some efforts to get client work and to do things like that. One of those is likely to land and become a project that OGM has. And some of the projects like that might be completely amenable to open content, open everything. Anybody come in and help. Some paid roles. I don't know exactly. We need to figure out how that would materialize. But others might be for a company that wants some kind of proprietary nature of its work. And I'm trying to figure out how to make sure that whatever gets created in any project like that becomes just part of the OGM platform where their own content becomes walled off as their content, but whatever we do to improve the platform makes it better. For example, but the idea that the multiple people in this community could be employed by projects that are building out the platform is really appealing to me. And I don't have an awful lot of context about that. But I think that's a good idea. I think that's a good idea. I think that's a good idea. I think that's a good idea. I think that's a good idea. I think that's a good idea. I think that's a good idea. But the idea that we could make something, it's no longer appealing to me and I don't, I don't have an awful lot of conflict about that. John. Yeah, at the moment, it seems to me that OGM is the first client. For what we're trying to do. We're the test bed and we're not there yet. I mean, we haven't fully developed the technologies and the ways of relating and. Dealing with purpose and projects and all. I'm just I'm thoughtful about the fact that we ourselves are incomplete as a project. That's the whole goal of this workshop is to flesh out the things you just said. So that's I think I think that's we're heading into a into a bit of a vortex to try to get that done. Well, the thoughts and then separately what is the most productive thing we could do actually other feedback on Matt's proposal for the workshop design. Maybe if we focus there and offer some some improvements there, or are you just comfortable with it and show we had toward figuring out how to build work products around it. And I need to create a short video explainer and invitation to the GM community for the workshop. So I will I will be recording that and sending that sending that out so that we know with a little bit more specificity what it is we're looking to do. It just occurred to me a little time in terms of the document the main document mission and structure that got a lot of bullet points is a kind of laundry list. It doesn't sort of on initial sort of scanning it doesn't seem to be in a sequence too much or maybe some of it's in a sequence. So one thing is to put it in some kind of priority order or sequence flow, but also to visualize it maybe map it, or some kind of visual layout that's not just a linear list. I think that would be really useful just occurred to me as a something very, very useful in advance of the workshop. So you're talking I think about the one we were all collaboratively editing from the call like this one a while ago. And that one started with seven or eight questions I posed, and those were headlines that used to sort of separated. And now that everybody's piled a bunch of stuff in there we've kind of lost the headlines so an easy thing to do is to create an index for it and to label all the questions with, you know, with a headline tag or something like that. That'll at least make it more visible what this is. And the document was not meant to be an organizational structure. Less than less that and more, let's be these are issues we need to talk about let's just talk about them here. And then George pointed out as he was commenting on a comment on a comment in that document. There's we've lost a richness of communication here as we're sitting in comments in a Google Doc. And, and, and then then I hit this frustration of, if only we had a GM already, like if only if only the tech technical sort of tactical useful things that were aiming toward existed, we would be able to sort of spawn spread connect and wander across these issues in a way that would be pretty useful. Alas, we're still playing with obsidian and the brain and, you know, Miro and stuff like that, all of which are to my mind, kind of not not quite exactly there. Sorry to take a little more time just just just to say like on your last points about these different tools. So for me one of my mantras is whatever works and each of us has our sort of whatever works at our sweet spots of tools and tool combinations and workflow. But, but, so to me it's less important like if it works, it works, but we have to work together. So for me it comes really down to responsiveness and follow through. And so, and this was also part of my conversation with Neil earlier. Just one on one which is, you know, talking in, for example, about a comment thread in a Google document where the lack of a response at the end of a thread, it basically becomes dead in the water. In my view and maybe I could take a hard stance on that. But just as this is one one fresh example but So just to bring it bring it back back to the surface or zoom out to say, you know, whatever of those tools works. Again, we have to connect them. And for now we do use to Google Docs and comments, but but we have to have the follow through and whoever's holding the space or whoever sort of initiated the thread or the document, or who's the space then there is a kind of ownership and maybe even a responsibility there. And it doesn't have to be on one person, but there, you know, it can't be nobody can't be asleep at the wheel. You know, and so I hope that's clear enough and useful. It's sort of is except I feel like really genuinely personally responsible for not being responsive and not following through a lot of these things because it's, it's kind of on me to go follow up a lot of those things and you said here's a task for you and I tried answering it. And then we're stuck in a corner on a comment on a Google Doc, and I lose the thread of all the things that are in front of me. So, so I feel like, I feel like accepting the responsibility for doing the thing you just described because you didn't you didn't call me out but but I feel like it's me who has to do a lot of that stuff and I feel kind of overwhelmed by the many things that I've helped bring into being some kind of kind of there. It is what it is. You know, I'm not trying to point the finger but but you know, and one, one other thing I want to add which is actually where I want to start from when I open my mouth, which is maybe to P in particular but to anyone who sort of energized by the idea or the actual practice of wikis maybe we can actually put this whole thing into a wiki. It would be probably a much more functional. That's a good conversation. I know a few people whose faces I'm seeing who grab deep experience with things like wikis. And, and this course has wiki aspects that I haven't quite understood. Yeah, kind of like is very light. Kevin you've had your hand up patiently for a bit. Yeah, I just, I think this group is really good at wondering and not very good at forging a pass. The space for collective wandering is valuable. So, you know, the assumption that this will become a an engine of productivity is possibly a flawed root notion. I have a dog that needs to go out so I hope that the things will be captured but I got rugs I got a dog I got to go. That doesn't even sound metaphorical that sounds very real. But my hope is that the way we wander through this is that each of us who's who's got side scanning radar and who's got projects and all that. We're like, Oh, we have this problem solved. There's a community over here that's built something that sort of does that that's kind of open source we can drag that and implement it try it out with everything else. And then we have, we have enough geek cred that we could adapt it adopt it blend it integrate it with other sorts of things and turn it into or extend it into something else. In which case we would be connecting to the community that developed that particular thing and bringing it in so Pete then costs. Jerry I wanted to go back to your, your thing where you felt like you didn't have enough time to do, you know to spin up the things that you had helped spin up. That triggered my startup coach hat, my startup coach superpower. And so that's, that's the answer to that is delegation right. So, I don't think I so I think you don't need to find time to do those things I think you need to find somebody to do them. And that feels to me like an OGM Federation kind of thing to do right as we grow and scale and evolve and things like that. I think, I think we'll start to see specializations. You know, I can see myself specializing in providing communication tools for instance, and maybe, you know, maybe that's my, the thing that I do in OGM. I think there is also a specialization. So I used to think of this or we used to talk about this as wiki gardening wiki gardening team, something like that. But, but maybe it's a little bit more. When there's a wiki gardening team, there's a, a entity that that team serves kind of, but maybe it's a little bit more distributed and federated than that. So maybe there are people that need, you know, a set of people a group that needs to do something and it may be, you know, there needs to be a few people who. Help discourse kind of form itself better or there, there needs to be people who, you know, find basically find the, the, the, when, when you say, I feel bad because I'm not doing the thing I should be doing. Anyway, I guess that's where I'm wandering around that point. It's time to pick somebody and say, you get to do this. Um, so briefly before going to class, I just wanted to reply to that with a story I think I read from Derek Sivers, the founder of CD baby who's a really interesting guy to follow. And he said that, and I think this was about when they founded CD baby. What they would do is periodically get to like do all hands while they were still small and they were figuring out how to do the thing they were doing like if this is a verb not a noun. They say okay hold everything and they would together talk through how to how a particular decision was, was happening and then everybody could go back and go oh okay. That's how we address this sort of situation and you from, from many of these you kind of learn how you work together and sort of the ethos of the enterprise. We've set up in discourse for example places to have those conversations and I haven't gone in and had those conversations. So I don't, I don't feel like enough of this is actually dissipated disseminated so that we can sort of pick up and do that. And then there are very specific things like hey how do we organize better or how do we, how do we route humans into the places where they're probably going to have the most satisfying conversation is totally a delegable task. So just asking for a volunteer for that is something that hadn't occurred to me. I'm miserable delegator. So I appreciate you pointing that out. But I think we're also in that stage of trying to figure out what, you know, how we odm, which I love I love the idea that this is an emergent verb goal kind of kind of processing class. Linking in what what actually chair you started out saying and Pete was emphasizing I see a hierarchy in narrative. And that's what I was trying to express yesterday with what I have written down there. You know, so we started when you build a theme park, you know $4 billion investment. You start with a story, right, Disney's California Adventure. That story is being fleshed out it's being brought to a specific level of completion of clarity, and then it's being passed on to a group of people who now go into specific directions, but always supporting the course story and in the process negotiating their way through the balancing act right so when I build restaurants I got space allocations but then I had to negotiate with how much space I need for this particular type of restaurant sometimes I wouldn't get it. So I see that and when you think about Donna Donna meadows for example right the the the hierarchy of narrative. I think that's that's what I was trying to get to you know what is our highest narrative. And then how do we flow that story then down the pyramid and in where a practitioner like myself can crap it and run with it. Yes, love that. We have three minutes left on this call. Closing thoughts. And I'd like to do, tell me if it's a bad idea I'd like to do another couple calls like this next week that are outside of the Thursday call, because I this this is very helpful to me. And I'm hoping, hoping it's helpful to you into our process heading toward figuring out better how to GM. So any closing thoughts for this call. No, I mean Jerry, I know I kind of came in as a lurker here, but I just kind of wanted to hear where people's heads were at on some of the stuff and thanks for things for putting this on I know it sparks them. I feel like every time I come into one of these calls I get sparks new thoughts or just articulations of how things should be and I don't know it's it's it's interesting I think we just highlight we all are kind of coming at this from like similar but slightly nuanced positions right and so, you know, it's great that we're having these conversations already so that by the time we get to that bigger synthesis conversation it just makes me feel a lot more confident that while we won't necessarily have specific answers for like certain questions that will at least know how to have the conversation or like start to have some of that stuff represented which is heartening. And my hope is that six months down the road, for example, OGM has provided Klaus with like ankle mounted rockets because he's able to do something and express something better. And a small crew a subset of OGM members who are like, yes, we were desperately on on board with the food system being the most important crisis and we and helping him in ways that that feed his projects, and that feed their work and and that we just lather rinse repeat in the different kinds of dimensions that Judy mentioned at the top of the call. And my goal is that OGM help each of us with our personal narrative journey goals target, while building back how OGM works and making the platform better and so forth and that's a little hard to kind of figure out that that's not a substantial thing where we're going to, we're going to help publish artists music faster and pay them every two weeks which is a great mission that CD baby had. And that was like a much clearer mission than I think we've got here, Judy, you have the last word. And you're muted. I think we have this this progression from vision to action to outcome to repeat. And I think we have a global shared vision that's nascent that's kind of emerging here. I think we have literally hundreds if not more action potential areas. And that's going to be, and each action area has a shared value vision action sequence to go through. And so, part of our process I think has to be, how do we enable the process of, of ideation action, execute, reevaluate and because I think that's the generative learning and growing process. And, and maybe if we think of ourselves as, in addition to the knowledge repository and the skills repository. A leader in process thinking systems thinking model that could be a very universal framework for us. And I think that sounds like a great place to, to end this call, and I agree. Thank you all. I'll put up a couple more calls like this for next week, and then also I'll do the video introducing the workshop and what are kind of assignments are pre work. And thank you this has been super super I feel like I'm like we're protecting home tree. Thank you.