 Hi, welcome everyone. I would like to this is the planning commission I'd like to order our first item of business changes to the agenda. Do we have any changes? All right, great. Well, then I will open it up to public comment. This this is for any comments not related to an item on the agenda. So if you're here for the East Allen Street scoping study we will get to that next. Does anybody else have any comments on a different topic that they would like to present before us. In that case we will move on to the East Allen Street scoping study local concerns meeting. Yes, I'll just do a brief introduction quickly and then turn it over to the folks that are also here in the room. So this is a study and Jason I'll let you help it out here too. The city of Winnuski is has some funding through the Chittenden County Metropolitan Planning Organization to do a scoping study on East Allen Street. This is being funded through the the RPC's their transportation planning funds. They've consulted with VHB to to do this on behalf of the city through an application process. So they're here tonight to present this is the initial local concerns meeting for for this study. And so they've got a presentation and some other activities planned so I will turn it over to either Jason or Dave whoever wants to go from here to talk more about it and I'm going to get out of the way because I'm in line of the projector. Eric pretty much stole my elevator pitch as to who and what the CCRPC is but so now that you're all familiar with the Regional Planning Commission and your work for an annual work program and this is a request that Winnuski made to us to study this corridor. So we've hired VHB to take a look at that and they have put together a nice presentation for us tonight. We're going to go through that and then do some breakout groups. Without further ado I'm going to turn it over to Dave. We'll try to be succinct here in case anyone has a hot date or something after this. So as mentioned we're looking at the East Allen corridor which if anyone noticed beforehand that the study area shown in the map essentially goes from the circulator east to just east of the interchange exit 15. We'll get into some more detail. This is our first public meeting for this study. We have an advisory committee that is made up of older's, Regional Planning Commission, VTRANS, the city. So that group has met once in preparation for tonight's meeting but the idea tonight is really to get information. Any input thoughts you have about the corridor, what's working along the stretch, what's not working, some great ideas, ways to improve kind of the overall operation, the entry sequence as people are coming into town, kind of that gateway experience. Anything goes tonight. So we're going to break into two groups after we go through a few slides to hopefully make smaller groups so we can have a little bit more intimate discussion and then we'll come back and see if we have some consistency across the different groups on. These are the top three, four, five priorities that we really want to focus on going forward. So that's what it's up for tonight. I'm just going to hit on the purpose why we are doing what are the overall operations of the study, to talk about what are the city and other stakeholders. Aaron will touch a bit on the existing conditions, so what's out there on the corridor now. Many of you will know most of what's the case there but some additional information that we've dug into up to this point. And we'll do the breakout session where we talk about issues and opportunities for the area. We'll come back, reconvene and then talk about where we're going to go with the study from here. I'm going to read all the way through here. One of the overarching elements of this project is a purpose to need statement, kind of an official guidelines that help us to articulate what it is that we're looking for for the future of this corridor and helps us to refine. As we start brainstorming ideas which of those ideas kind of are consistent with the goals and the purpose which ones may not be. So we can kind of just see just a couple of key points on the project goals. The genesis of this and maybe others can correct me if I'm wrong but there's been discussion about this corridor within the context of the city the three major gateways so Malis Bay, Main Street and East Allen have been looked at both from a kind of a transportation perspective and from a zoning perspective as the gateways into downtown. Main Street is moving on a kind of a separate trajectory project moving forward there. So East Allen as another gateway is just as busy in terms of traffic flow as Main Street. So the idea here is to identify those improvements looking at a vibrant and welcoming way, looking at mobility, dancing for hall modes, not just the vehicles, moving safety, maximizing development. Those are kind of the overarching themes what we're looking at along the corridor. Some of the things driving that in terms of needs, many of these are fairly obvious but limited bicycle pedestrian accommodations, sidewalks not fully through. We've got as we just talked about earlier some bicycle facilities but not fully along the corridor. Balancing the various modes. There's three high crash locations and Erica will touch on that a little bit more but certainly some safety concerns along the corridor that we want to look at. There's good transit service in terms of number of buses along the corridor but not a lot of accommodations that maybe make it a little bit easier or more conducive to take the bus. And then operational issues or traffic issues kind of from the exit exit 15 Spring Street to the Circulator. So in terms of what the project is scheduled here we are today with the local concerns meeting. Where we're going to go from here is develop some kind of bundles of alternatives. So we'll probably have three or four different kind of packages that we'll look at. We'll still be determined how we're going to bundle those together. One may be more kind of sprucing up, prettying up. One might be a little bit more infrastructure intensive. We'll have to work that out. But coming out of this after we hear we say we'll bundle those together we'll look at different things like costs for the different improvements, how well it addresses all of the needs, does it address mobility, traffic operations and safety. We'll then be back in June probably back here before the planning commission to talk through here's the different alternatives or bundles and alternatives we've looked at. Here's kind of how they store a certain criteria and then getting done. So that's June. This all gets rolled into a draft report in August before the city council in September and hopefully wrapped us up in in October. This scoping in terms of scoping is an important step to to have underway so that it makes eligible federal funding if and when the opportunity is there to get federal funding to build some of these improvements. Having a scoping study done is a big check off that list. You guys hear me all right if I stay over here? Alright. So as Dave mentioned, I guess first I'm Aaron Pollen from BHB. A lot of team members are here that you will meet throughout. Dave, myself and Karen up here in front. We're all from BHB. I see Ryan in the back. There are a few others who are here tonight but that is a project team that has been working together thus far. So as you mentioned the project area this is the same graphic as shown on that board over there. We're going from the circulator out to rolling court just past the interchange keeping that locked in because it's part of the interchange included in that signal. So getting right into some of the more technical stuff before we back out and get into your ideas and concerns what we've identified already and mention a lot of cars use this every day between 14,000 and 19,000 vehicles per day. 19,000 is part of the interchange and people start to disperse and it gets down to 14,000 roughly at the entrance to the circulator. From the needs we have these three high crash intersections. I'll show a graphic of the crashes after but to know as you probably could have guessed East Outstreet with East Street and Abinacua and that is not just vehicle crashes there's also a pretty high number of pedestrian crashes at that intersection. East Outstreet and East Spring Street probably one of the more notable intersections along this corridor that I'm sure many of you have your own thoughts about and then the northbound off ramp from exit 15 is also included there. Between those three intersections alone there were 92 crashes and then obviously many are studied by Beatrice. They did what's called the road safety audit. So they went out there, took a look at the intersection, made some recommendations and those will be considered when we look at the alternatives. So other than those 92 crashes that is between 2012 and 2016. If you look at the more recent five years between 2013 and 2017 along the corridor there were 302 total crashes, 10 crashes involved bikes or pedestrians. There's one fatal crash which was I believe a pedestrian crash and then there has obviously also been more recent crashes that have been pretty notable and 54 injury crashes. And to know all those bike pet crashes resulted in the contact on your top users interacting. So those 300 or so crashes are distributed along the corridor like this. The three stars are the three high crash locations. So you can see it's pretty consistent and then you'll see the intensity grow around those intersections. Lots of room for improvement along both the segments and at the intersections. Getting into those vulnerable users specifically, again the accommodations which many of you are probably familiar. There are sidewalks along pretty much the entire corridor but they're not very consistent. In the downtown core you have the wider brick sidewalks. Then you narrow down to just some concrete sidewalks. There's the other side of this photo. And as you can see here there's a bit more to be a bit of a mixed use path but it is right up against the roadway the entire way. That starts at East Street and continues all the way to the interchange. So there are a number of crosswalks. I see one of the circulator. There's one at Cascadeway. Another one at Abenaki Way which is shown right up here with East Street. The new potentially temporary crossing at Manso Street which was put in during the construction. There's one up at Dion Street where you have the beacon, the flashing lights where you're crossing a four lane section. And then there's one that's built into the signal at the off-ramp. That's been the door. So we have taken a look at some previous studies and this will inform a lot of the types of amenities and alternatives. We'll be looking at the form-based code for the gateways which we also discussed a lot in Main Street. There are similar recommendations along this corridor. On the map in the background here this is part of the zoning map. So the pinkish color is the downtown core. That's where you already see pedestrian scale lighting, wider brick sidewalks, and some on-street parking and the bike lanes are through that section. And then once you get to the purple is where the form-based codes to apply. And what this prescribes is multi-story buildings right up along the sidewalk. Recommended to have retail on the first floor, nice windows right on the sidewalk, and then residential above. That retail is not required but it is encouraged. And then there's the town pass and small apartment which is similar, but there is no retail recommendation through there. And the other plan that we are looking at which shows a bit more with some specific recommendations along the corridor. Some of you may be familiar with a very recent study, the transportation master plan, which was city-wide but we have gone through that and looked at the recommendations that are related to this project. Some of those included the four-lane section going down to three lanes on each direction, known as a road diet, going from that four to three. Some options at East Spring Street, potentially a realignment of it to make it a more perpendicular T intersection. Tango is that tight angle that exists right now. Some concerns about the access and egress to Dion Street, where that difficult four-lane crossing is. And then also to research a bit more that merged lane coming out of Cascade Way, seeing if that is really necessary or if there are other options of that intersection. As mentioned in the need, a lot of this is driven by lowering barriers to responsible development and re-development along construction. Others are permitted. So the parcels here shown in pink already have permitted development and then there are potential other ones along the corridor. A lot of these are mainly housing but potentially some retail on that first floor as prescribed by the four base. Looking at all of those existing conditions, we have broken down our opportunities and constraints as we've been calling it. The map is on the inside of your handout. If you don't have one, we have one here. And most of the opportunities and constraints fall into the categories of mobility, safety, and placing. And those are really a driving factor. The mobility is that accessibility for all different modes, making sure there are transit accommodations, safe bike and pedestrian facilities, and still leaving some room for the vehicles on-street parking, that balance of the modes. Tied very directly into that is safety. Not only do we want all of the accommodations to be there, but we want them to operate in a safe manner. As we saw in the crash map, there's a lot of room for safety improvements. So a lot of the alternatives will be something that we will really be looking at closely, looking at potential improvements, particularly at the intersections, and keeping in mind those vulnerable users since those are some of the most detrimental crashes. The last thing that we are facing on is what's known as place thinking. And that sense that you are somewhere now, that you're just passing through, but that you've arrived in downtown Winnieski. There are some elements that exist out there, others that really need some improvement. One to note is the Cassavent area. Really, really beautiful land. It's being used more and more by the city, and it's a piece that we would really like to show off. It's a pretty unique part of this corridor, but the access to it is pretty drab. It's a gravel parking lot with a tiny driveway that you could go right past if you didn't know what you were looking for. So how do we make things like that more visually appealing and enticing for people to want to stop there? There are a couple little elements down on the bottom left that is coming just out of the downtown core. It just has the village roads, trees, traffic when you have things like that. And that's what will give a pedestrian a sense of safety. It will slow vehicles, just making it a place that is better and easier to be and use. Things like pocket parks. We have this outside of CCD. That's a pretty cool element. And so we're going to be looking for areas that we can incorporate those types of elements. So I know this is very hard to see up here again. This is what's in your handout, and we will have big copies of it when we get into our breakout groups right after this, so you can actually look at them. But in this tiny little legend up here, again, we are broken out into mobility up top, safety in the middle, and place making at the bottom. And then we have three. The green are going to be our activity to play up. Use more along the corridor. The red are our constraints. These are areas that we think need some improving that are worth looking at more in-depth potentially areas for alternatives. And then the last one is the orangey yellow, which is just advisory. These are things that we just want to make note of things like those permanent developments, where parking, where Austrian parking exists, things like that, just places to bring your attention to. And they'll be elements that we can discuss. If you like them, maybe they'll turn green, or maybe you don't like them and we can make them red. These are the types of things that when we get into our breakout groups, we want to hear your thoughts on things that are already here, or we're totally off base with some of them. If you make any of the things that you think were not true, and we'd love to hear other places that you're concerned about, and other things that you like that you would like to see extended throughout the rest of the corridor. So without digging into this too much as a whole group, it's going to be time for us to break out into two groups. There will be one group up here at the front, and one out in the lobby at another table. There will be a couple of people from the project team at each table. And this will be the chance for it to be more of a discussion between the two of us, between the two of us, between all of us, between the two groups. And so without pouring any more technical stuff, or the existing conditions that you probably already know. Outside that should be fairly if you could choose whichever one you want to go in. Yeah, and then we'll come back as a group at the end and see where we have the same ideas for both groups where we had differing opinions and then how we can resolve the two. So just real real quick for so everybody knows as much as we can, we're going to maintain the live coverage on CCTV. So if we can keep it going, we will but for the breakouts, but if we can't, we will cut it and then come back when we reconvene as the whole group again. So just you're all aware that we'll be going on also if we can do it. So feel free to break out but we also have some dots if they just want to go through, we'll use these ones for places that you can sort of have it's not already identified. We also have some green or things that are already identified or if you just want to show up, so much time to digest things. There's only a little bit on here. So again, we have our mobility safety and safety, so just clarify like here, this was in the crosswalk, safe crosswalk Okay, so these it doesn't exist. This is a potential. Right. So this one already exists. This one is integrated with the signal here. Another one there. You can since we're out of isolation, especially with the signal that already has the time given for this crossing, it would just be if you don't think it's that because of you just this is coming off the highway, right? Right. So this would be more for people going this way. Oh, that that would want to cross. Yeah. And so we also have the bus stops here. Yeah. Yeah, we Yes. Yeah. So we did call So along this entire route, it's very large stretch. We call them that there's no bus stops here in the area. Same thing with this long area, they would call out that there aren't really any crosswalks. This is where the new one is, but no other real safe crosswalks would still a lot of activity going through here. I mean this new one was only because of it. So I think there's lots of stuff on here already. One thing I'm noticing that doesn't doesn't have much around it. It's things around it, but not exactly on it is Deion Street. But Deion is used by a lot of people to go from Eastern to Western. First, if I take the Seattle channel and so there's a lot of traffic on that street that's not really horrible. It's just being used as a travel road. Yeah. I mean we'll cut out going through the road or maybe by going that way. If you're going to be gripping the S6 and you're going to Costco, you can chase that one. Sorry, right here. Yeah. Right. You have to cross two lanes of traffic and the people coming down the hill at this intersection don't have a red light at all. It's always green. Yeah. And so unless they get held up back here, but even when they get held up there, people are coming off the interstate and they come driving down. So it can be just not something to talk about. What about the light that died? That's what I was thinking. That has definitely been a good example before. Yeah. Also for pedestrians to. Do you think it's an important term though for people coming out of the scary exit? Like if you got rid of that, you know there was talk earlier about maybe extending the medium so you could actually take that one. Yeah. I don't know if I would write it right out. I sort of like the idea that you're still talking about it. There is a presidential opening. I have a little talk as well. Yeah. That light to the interstate of it to go anywhere. So it needs to definitely not be an issue for that. I'm sure. Yeah, because the interstate is there, if you have that one to enter, you have to go all the way to Florida Avenue. Yeah. Yeah. So we have heard discussions, and especially with these two developments going in, and it was discussed with great seaters initially. Yeah. When that went in, there was talk of potentially a loop using these ones and having, which is why that media extension, having to be right in, right out, and then potential for maybe a signal at man. So you don't have too many signals too close. I don't know if that's something that sounds reasonable. Yeah. I would also live, if you have the high crash locations here, here, and the interstate, but I have been to lots of crafters from here to the gas station. And that's, that seems to be every time we get called. It's either right at the bottom of Manso, or right at the gas station, or people are just trying to come in or anything like that, or maybe a lot of things here as well, and definitely at the interstate, but right out of all those. Is there a type of crash you've seen most frequently, as people try to get out and into driveways? Yeah, one was, two have been here turning left, and then out of this gas station trying to come away. Yeah, these driveways, kind of a nightmare, I don't know, is the reason for this intersection, it's awesome, we do our stuff going on. Yeah. People try to go. The lower gas station, but this next one is the island, so you have to go up and then turn around, but yeah, we've seen a lot right in this area, and then these developers. Yeah, so I guess going off of that, we have poor access management called out at a few pretty key locations, especially near a lot of those crashes. So just right here we have ore for the gas stations, gas stations to really like to make a loop. Then we also see it here at Ms. Plaza where Bootsy Beverage is, and then there are just a lot of residences down here that have driveways. And is it the access, is it just too many, or is it also the size of the access? That's kind of what I'm asking, you guys, what do you think? I have a hard time with this one. I just wanted to start with that helps me to get a little bit. Just throwing something out if you guys agree, disagree. It seems like speeds are a lot higher here, so those windows are a lot shorter. So what do you guys think about the four lanes section? There was discussion of going down three. We're seeing kind of a pilot of three lanes for a section, although it's two in one direction, one in the other. If it went down to three, you would like it to be one in each direction with a center turn lane. If anything's coming out of Diane, you don't have to cross four lanes, only have to cross one. If you did, keep it just kind of a way of a lane. So there are questions here. It is so scary, I feel terrible for any computer that needs to do it twice a week, especially when Astrid is in this crowd setting. So that was my recommendation. I came out of the transportation master plan. The biggest thing with that is creating a rail crossing. The railroad is slanted. So just to remind you, how would that like resolve any of this? Yeah, yeah. So the light would be here and then they could go over here. That would make more sense because people coming down would be over in that way, because that whole thing is just a mess, because they would stop it and put it in the stop sign. So people would just stop your tracks and put it against, you're going to argue with the railroad, so that's going to be tough. Some of the things to note about it is the huge pedestrian crossing and it goes to nowhere, the sidewalk doesn't pick up until after the railroad. So here you're talking about a lot of shorter pedestrian crossing. Yeah, yeah, so there are no sidewalks on this and you're dealing with the drop off. There's a bit of a great difference here. The other thing to notice too is the design right now has it, so if you're coming up this way, you get the right lane and then if nobody's coming this way and you're coming up the spring, you're supposed to have the lights so you literally just go. It's open for you, but what happens is people don't realize that so they see a car coming up here and they're waiting and they don't need to wait. They could go, so it's not even really working properly all the time. So a lot of people wait at this intersection because unless you see a turning signal, if somebody's from out of town and they realize it's a turning only lane, they'll be dead for sure. And especially right now, the split happened right before, so it doesn't even give them time to put on their single lane times. They're really going to engage with what they're doing. The good thing about a three lane section is that you have that center 12 or so feet to work with that that can become turn lanes. Maybe for a section, maybe ATMANSO does split back out to two downhill, one uphill so that you can maintain that right turn. Options like that. This is probably definitely beyond the scope of this, but I think one thing that factors in a lot to how people can be down here has to do with the speed limit up at same lights too. It's like 40 miles per hour by same lights and you go right to 25. And then, from my perspective of the reverse of that, a lot of the terrain in these sections requires them to speed up just to use it. Like, because when I make the left hand turn, you have to speed up to get traction because you're turning at the same time. Which makes, as I said, the crossing after going this fast definitely people come. I think people always come 60 miles an hour. Very rarely, but some once in a great while. I was like half the other day, I was definitely 60. He did not change speeds from, I love the mass extortion, from mass extortion to the circular. Did not change speeds. More than average, maybe like 45 though which is still a big difference. One of the things we are looking at doing is going out on the radar gun or some tubes. It's awesome. We have had this view. Definitely. Yeah, until late at the light. I actually saw, you were talking about the beverage warehouse, somebody turning left here with a 67 Corvette convertible. They were pulling out somebody who was whipping down your T-bone. Like, this guy is probably enjoying that. Just from my perspective. So, focusing on this view, what are some of the traffic calming speed related measures that you've seen that you like that you think might fit? Definitely try to help do that. I don't think there's a lot of trees along this corner of the street. There's a bunch here, and then it stops. And then there are smaller trees in the downtown core which we'll get to here. What's the parking you can't park? There is a parking in front of these residences. That's great. Well, when you see city vehicles do that too. Nobody saw one in that intersection. So, things that came up in the advisory committee are opening this up to all movements for all directions. Yes. A lot of people can go straight up here too. What does that mean? So, right now you can only take a right in and a right out. Do you know why that was spent that way originally? So, one thought, do you say yes or no, I just meant like, I want to know. Why it was ever done that way in the first place. So, we're not sure about the entire configuration but dealing with this merging and one of the things we've been thinking about is the sight lines because the V7 is right on the corner of these sort of things, like trees that make you feel more constrained and you feel if you're in the downtown. You have a slower speed than I should. Exactly. Is that a pedestrian measure or a contempt? I would guess this is just my hypothesis. It might be because the entrance of the garage is right here. People are coming down. It might be a dangerous situation because they're coming down and people like to do the garage. That's just my opinion. That's a good idea. Yeah, so like in general sight lines through here are just not right. Maybe also this gets pretty congested or rush hour and they just figured let's have one less factor in there. Because people can also cheat that the rotary which I'm sure people do know you might have come this way to go through the rotary I guess they do the same. And go in the other direction. Yeah, this is one option. This... There's just a similar clear one side of the crosswalk. There's been quite a few pedestrian crosswalks. I've actually watched visually impaired couple walk from and then get to the other side and just have to poke through a snowing to get onto the sidewalk. That's really unfortunate. Yeah, there are a lot of pedestrian crashes at this one. I think there should be a point there. People are going so fast from Debbie all the way down to the circle. Yes. And people are excited that they made it through the circulator that they've done it behind it. People don't stop there super often. I've found, anecdotally, from personal experience that the congestion through here is actually quite good for a lot of the things you're talking about. People are very polite at least to vehicles here. What about riding and stuff? Yeah, I've found that people are pretty good to other vehicles. Pedestrians different story. Visibility is more difficult. It's a little scary going down that hill too. Especially if people are turning if they're turning right and far they won't necessarily see you coming with a lane. I get nervous about that a lot. I'd like to see great bike facilities and I've talked about the transportation master plan that this is an artery for the city and that's part of one of the things I'd recommend and obviously you guys are considering that already so make sure that there should be plenty of room I would think compared to main street for instance where there were all the restrictions that ended up with just one bike lane up hill only. I'd like to see a bi-directional on this. The other thing to consider is that we've got tie-in to the artery because this is too hard to plan but it stops at the road tracks. Yeah. There is always the option of lower stress networks if we didn't work around. Look how these sprays appreciate this intersection between some treatment. That's always an option but there are bike lanes through here this right thing is not there and like you're saying there is a lot of space up here especially if four lanes go down to three that bike lane is 12 feet to work with. And there's already the multi-use path which is huge. I think it goes through a lot of this. Just to with low stress networks it opens up for bike lanes just to be able to be north-south. You can avoid this. How much you wanted to make sure there was going to be a lot of bicycles. She goes to different places and I do see that as much. We have definitely heard that I've come up with a member as a cyclist who lives in this area. And East Green Street is great for biking for getting places from over there to over here but a lot of where is down here. This is where the restaurants are and this is where there's fun stuff to do. There's this break-up on and in a circulator to be kind of a nightmare for a lot of bicyclists there's no solution to come out of this project for that but they either take the pain or they walk inside the lawn basically. At least you can get here and then answer that. I would make this it's very apparent that bikes are going to be a part of this plan. If there are certain barriers created to facilitate that I would hope to see something a little bit more permanent like plastic boulders. Not nearly for like aesthetics but I'm seeing up at this intersection here we have some temporary ones right now and they kind of seem to make a bad situation versus for a snow rule because like snow doesn't get removed around it and being on an incline as well it makes it even more difficult to get traction going up to the hill just an honest impression. I'm looking at Ryan as he is from DPW on your thoughts about separated facilities. Yeah I mean when you cook what barriers it does make it a little bit more difficult to remove snow. You know we have our sidewalk plan those are pretty slow it's certainly an option that we should look at closely. I'm going to break up with the hard barriers on your side. Well no I just mean bike lanes in general if you have an air or that truck plow can't just clear that in itself makes it a little bit complicated but you know with respect to snow storage you had a wide enough barrier you could just be up on the green valley or something. Yeah I'm just seeing that like when we have like pullers or something it tends to collect between them and then that like will pour out into the road. Sometimes it's good because it makes a little snow wall and you get it back sure but once you have too much snow more than you would use. I think the best barrier is that people love you if you did you have a lot of fans. Everything is on the table at this point especially with housing coming up and if you're going three lanes and you want to slow traffic all of itself. That's an interesting idea and you have a protected bike lane with snow plowing in fact maybe makes it worse but well if there's a storm I think we're going to be working with those people. Do y'all have thoughts on parking or how public? In addition to the new garage if that goes to be the type of car it will go over. With the traffic count for the main street garage maybe Ryan or you know that's basically what 900 spaces. Is anyone saying that's what 650? It's not ever in capacity though. It does not. I see 50% You hear this parking there's no parking there's no parking all the time but in fact there is parking so I don't know if it's an awareness piece of it because it looks like a building I think it's a parking garage. That's no good. I'm just going to say it might not be a science it could be a science, it could be an awareness maybe getting even out of the garage someone mentioned that it's tough coming out on the cascade way and it is a tight space to get into that garage or maybe just knowing which way to turn you're going down the hill this way you're like how do I get to the garage I'm not discouraging the new garage it's not a hotel it's only a parking it's just how do people use it They're both also down here right right this is going to have that has parking for all their tenants this doesn't have to be real but it's not even allocated on the site it's not even parked on the basement no it was we were explained this by Eric what do they have for large site parking do you remember at all what they are required to have is one space per unit plus one space per every four units I believe they've got 39 units that's not all they would be one of the quarter spaces for a unit so how do you think that plays in up here parking is going to reach up in the short term what's happening with more of this stuff could there be in the future more high-rises here with retail and other places anything is possible along this corridor the form-based code does recommend things like that and not really high-rises maybe high-rises yes there is a height limit in the form-based code I believe in this area it's four and a half stories with the possibility to go to fifth story with some affordable housing or other incentives but there needs to be something provided and that's in the urban general district the small apartment townhouse district is I believe is capped at four stories the minimum is two and a half I believe that's crap the city lights I think that's correct taller roof it's like an out-of-space there's so much up there and so you'll have pitch rooms rather than passenger rooms so I'm a big bike advocate of course but I think parking if you can add parking there's four stories retail at first then you gotta have some parking for businesses to succeed otherwise nobody's gonna go in look at what happens I don't know why they close but my guess is there's no parking right there in front of Dover T and people are lazy I'm sure they've got business from college but the parking is right behind it people are like, oh I'd like a T but where am I gonna have to park I don't want to deal with it, I'll just keep driving by it was also a little bit of a pop-up too they got in your free rent I know with your building but it was a successful thing this gets into bikes parking you take away a lane say you have 12 feet 5 or 6 foot ideally 6 foot bike lanes parking lanes are about 8 feet wide so you can't fit 2 bike lanes in parking and around the space we're not the multi-use so that does not take into account the multi-use we get that space you guys can tear that all up when you do this we're not the multi-use sure do you guys put them on for another $23 million then we can do whatever so you were planning on only tearing up the road, the car the vehicle road we're not tearing up the road this is just to come up with a concept that when reconstruction comes you will know what you want to do what is the city's right of way with including if it does include 66 feet and does that include the multi-use so right now the right of way goes to the same 4 66 feet and currently it goes right to the back of the sidewalk along 98% of the corridor or the back of the multi-use path one thing to note about this path is that it is right next to the curb which in technical terms makes it a side path rather than a multi-use path so it's looked at a little bit differently some people might not feel comfortable of it and a pedestrian sharing that space right along the curb so if this would count as your uphill facility then it makes it a much easier discussion on the street or if you're on the right way then it will keep you on more and you essentially already have an uphill bike so you have to get people on it in this area I think bicyclists again this is totally based on experience not on science but it seems like bicyclists may be better at signage and cars maybe because they're going to be slower or maybe they're looking for it because I'm like this bike is about to end where's the next one and I'm looking for bike lane signs or cars are just driving whatever so if you have a sign that's very clear it's like this is where the bikes go here next thing it was some talk of like this city here that has actually paying sidewalk rather than a concrete segmented sidewalk I think that me kind of inherently when we look at that thing oh that's an inferior material but it seems like that's actually probably better for me I don't know I notice around the city that a lot of those cemented concrete sidewalks that he even moved and so it makes snow removal difficult and if I know some of the guys who plow it I can hit those joints I guess it will set them off course it really affects kind of the quality of snow removal you missed the next 5 feet put that down yeah so it turns to asphalt on this side it goes right from brick to asphalt it's brick all the way up to Anapiway it's starting to fall that's why there's no green belt over here we have a little bit of a green belt through some of the sections because you have 5 feet of grass 5 feet of sidewalk over here you have just the 10 feet one path would imagine the paved surface probably invites probably cyclists to share it with pedestrians a little bit more I don't know if that's a good thing you're imagining but I mean also the way with myself what are businesses going to think they're contemplating going up higher or something and they're like oh I have a bike lane in the front door or something you need a used path they're going to be like why is this in front of a store people are trying to walk into the front door and there's bikes specific by 20 miles an hour Anapiway 3 lanes of vehicular traffic bi-directional bike lane and sidewalks 3 lanes I'm not saying the whole life but maybe through this up 3 lanes bi-directional bike lane and sidewalks so that takes away your option for parking it's one thing so we have 12, 24 plus another 22 it's a number thank you 55 so that only leads us with 11 feet so you choose a parking but that does not count the sidewalks so now we have sidewalks in there that are right for Jason 12 23 36 52 then we would have a little bit of room outside is this all this is all legal many of this go smaller the bike lanes could go down to 5 or 4 are we talking like 4 up against the curve there 5 is the minimum we're going to a state facility but on a highway it could be less are we saying 4 for both directions I mean are 6 for both directions or 6 per direction well she's got to admit not as if there's lanes on either side of the travel lane you're talking right next to each other maybe on one side of the lane possibly that would require buffer if you did that to another 3 or so feet so I guess after this we can maybe discuss some of the main areas of concern that we can bring back alternatives evaluated that could be network wide or you can look at specific locations that you think are worth evaluating thanks a lot I just drew a new crosswalk here this side of the street so there's 3 crosswalks 3 or 4 approaches so we should probably have a full where is this right here in front of the CCD I would I would in front of the following leader I would propose for crosswalk just at the crest of the hill I think is set up for disaster as we talked about if this loop and this became signalized then it's really easy to incorporate pedestrians where do you think the best place for a crosswalk in this section is then you have one here right now so there's the one right here with the beacon which typically is an ideal a lot of times you'll want pedestrian refuge in the middle right correct, Diane does not have sidewalks all it does is get you from one side of the way down to the other but there's talk about bringing at least one sidewalk for road so probably it's not like there's going to be a lot of we do red is talking about this intersection they're all it's just thought one of the things I've always noticed is that there's a little bump park here it's beautiful but it's so cute in return when you're coming down it makes it difficult because if there's any kind of ice or snow making that turn makes you more likely to go into the other lane and to be quite honest if that didn't jut out like that it would be more self-explanatory for people to wear the lanes like when you're coming down and you are in a turn only lane so well that is true I'm sorry I felt it being a little bit of a safety added to the safety issues we also didn't talk about a lot here but in my presentation we talked about the cast of that placement I think that's a great idea I lived here for a whole year before I even walked on those trails and I mean they were a little bit wrong this is awesome out here I went for a college geology trip to go out there's some cool outcomes back there that was the first thing that I did I think it would be good to look for a quarter and see where those special places are because one looking at certain amenities like bike racks you would want to have there assuming just a kiosk or something other elements that are long-distance and would encourage people to use it more infrastructure I think the same thing is getting pedestrian-scale lighting and driving through here at night it's terrible so it's extra-difficult with the glares from oncoming headlights which is a lot of the issues with pedestrians here around you know like an elderly community could walk it's not a bench in that you don't tell anyone a transit accommodation that gets you space that fairly regular better bowls if you have some nice shelter higher concentration as you're heading towards Colchester it's really tough to see the signals underneath both interstates yes so you have the multiple traffic signals because this one that's right here is super hidden until you serve this it's right here yeah a lot of crashes and we heard from some people from the police that they see a lot of science wipes here people will actually have the green coming out of here but these people see this green so they just go once they see this is red but it's too late just about it's right here we had a fatal motorcycle accident last year we had a fatal they both have a high license I'm a signal source I come off the interstate right here every day and I have been stopped here usually it's different in the morning versus the evening the middle of the day is pretty generic when you show up it should change middle of the night type timing and then the weekends are usually different so on your morning commute I go to Burlington so that downhill has some more priority in the afternoon a lot of people are coming off the interstate so there's a little bit more priority so those types of things that are there's a lot of access and there are really wide you know standard 24 whenever it needs to be you know shorter crossings yeah it's great yeah there's a fourth as well as bike crossings this I'm sure is the scope of the scoping study but I know that it's always mystified why are there two of them southbound yeah this is a brand new series I've been knowing these lines so much it was going to take out some units here so it didn't have the cost benefit people come through when they were speaking they have the more they can stop one minute do we want to assign an ambassador to bring stuff back because I had talked enough today I'm having to do it that's great advice but you're right it's the street of the economy it's the street of the economy it's the street of the economy it's the street of the economy thank you that's it say one else that is gonna to invite thehhhh the valentine's gift it's all like yeah it's just yeah So this whole old house right here, I'm sure he's going to tell you all the truth all the time. Just one dispatcher says it online, one says it on the phone. This man, this was an apartment. This is how my neighbor should know. They were on the first stage and they all decided all the houses and these kids get the little vectors. This is so nerve-racking. They are getting so ill. I'm really excited to see this. My daughter and I are going to put it on the first stage. So this man is checking the other ones, Chris. I've been exacting the wrong ones. But this one is actually in the very low, gigantic house. And he is going to have a select and active meeting permit. So she has a line of options at home. I have an active meeting permit. We're building. I'm wondering how you do. I think he's on a holiday. He's on a holiday. He's on a holiday. It will go on a Friday, Wednesday along with a note. It's on the first stage. I'm sorry. There was one. I got to go. Good to see you, John. See you. You too. Are all city planners left? You're left hand-ranked. He's left down too. Did you call me? Yes. I'm pretty sure of yourself. We're going to come together as a group. So having the opportunity to bounce back and forth was interesting. There's a lot of similar comments, but I think some things that were highlighted a bit more into the group. So we've got two designated spokespeople here, Jason and Diane. Jason, you're going to start off with this group here. What rose to the top? Well, we had a three-spirited discussion. We covered a lot of ground. I'll try to condense it. Yes. I have since it now. Speeding was an issue coming down the hill. That was definitely up there. We talked about that quite a bit. We talked about the balance. We're trying to figure out how to fit accommodations for bicyclists while possibly accommodating on-street parking at the same time. Is that possible or is it not? We did a little bit of math. I'm not necessarily sure of the results. So just stay tuned for the next meeting on that one. There are amenities in general along the corridor for pedestrians and bicyclists. On the side streets is definitely more difficult towards the east end of the corridor. So further up the hill than it is down the hill. Any solutions for the spring and east-down intersection? We talked about that. We have a dot there. There was a support for the teething up, a realignment of East Spring Street to make that a more perpendicular section which is noting the difficulty of the road. Don't have a lot of support or didn't get a lot of support from the group for the existing crosswalk at Manso? So if there's a way to make that safer or possibly relocate it, is there a better location? Chat about that a little bit. I guess that was kind of the idea just for the discussion about balancing the bikes and buses at our parking. Anyone else in that group have something that stood out to you that wasn't mentioned? Will we in support of Barlow Opening Head Up intersection-wise? Yes, thank you. I wrote that down. We talked about the Barlow Cascade Way intersection. Right now if you're coming out of Cascade it's right in and right out. We talked about opening that up and the benefits that that might have for vehicles as well as perhaps the Barlow Stress Bicycle Network providing that north-south and that on that side we tried to figure out why it was built the way it was but no real results there but perhaps we could do some historical research and get back to you next time. Jason, I think it was because the intent you're talking about coming up Cascade the intent was that that traffic was going to head east so not to be able to go straight or left like not being able to turn coming west on East Allen down Cascade or really going straight across Bellevue. That was the intent but it'd be curious if someone would do a count and see how many cars pull up Cascade go around the barrier and head back to the circulator come across from Barlow Street or turn left from coming down Cascade. Was there a desire at the time to restrict the movement? That's why. Is there some reason or another? Yeah, because people that lived on Barlow didn't want. I think it was because Cascade was not envisioned as a cut through if you will, a real street. They were supposed to be pushed up to Abnaki and so that wasn't meant for major traffic if you will. Send them up to the signal. What's that? Send them up to the signal inside. I think what's interesting about that though is because we were mentioning that parking that parking garage isn't used as much as it should and that maybe if it did open up you would have more people going down and parking in that garage because they don't know how to get there. So that was an interesting thing. That's always been an issue. Signage is one of the big issues there. Yeah, that came up a lot on the strategy of making sure we can know. We had some of the same issues that you all brought up which were the East Spring Street intersection, the concern for safety for all users, the limited pedestrian crossings on East Allen, the limited bike facilities on East Allen, vehicular speeds high and the two things I think you all didn't mention were coordinating pedestrian crossings and transit stops and also the need for more on-street parking especially for retail. Anything else from that group? Do you want to throw up? I like that tying together the pedestrian and transit. Yeah, it's great. So between the notes that were mentioned here, is there anything else that folks think of at this point? If you haven't gotten one, if everyone's got the full account there's not that good information to the website that has information. We'll be posting information from this meeting. The presentation will go up on the website and then we'll be announcing the next steps for the next public meeting. The scope of this is it really just East Allen from the circulator up? I'm just wondering about if there's any look at the circulator itself in terms of is there some way to improve that? Exactly. That is not part of this. We appreciate your concern. Yes. We can talk about it. Yeah, no, I mean, you know, to me it works. Period. A lot of people don't. You learned to love it. I don't know if it's use your signals or don't use them in the circulator. If you saw a front porch form the last week it's like, oh my God, anyway. What's that? Yeah. But, you know, I don't know, for example, I think that there was some conversation or discussion about using Ebnaki Way as a major cut-through but there's issues with the corner, the intersection with East Allen Street for trucks getting through. So it seems like everything, and I know a lot of things have been looked at, and there seems to be something that comes up that shoots down any of the other alternatives than what's there now. But I think it would be something to look at the city, you know. And I have seen the data at one point it was one of the highest crash locations in the state because of all the rear ends when we had the traffic signals in the middle on the northbound side. I don't know if that's changed. So it's dropped. Yeah. Well, to me it was always a misnomer because high crash area but it's, you know, someone bumps someone like that and it gets reported to crash. It's also technically four intersections we're thinking about. It's not really fair to think about as one intersection, right? And it's only been, I don't know, how many years since that was 10 or 12? Uh-oh, the signals. It's like two or three. And the safety improvement, so we haven't, so in establishing a high crash location there's five years worth of data that go into that. So it's gone down and we've only probably had two years worth of no signals in the circuit that are going into that number. So I would be interested to... So in terms of pedestrian we've already talked about the pedestrian crossing on Maslow Street. It seems like those yellow flashing lights that are up at Dyan Street and down at the southeast corner of the circulator work very well. And I don't know from a traffic engineering standpoint if that's a realistic solution. They're one of the most effective pedestrian crossing at a two lane street. In this case where you've got four lanes and particularly up on the hill where you've got so many other things going on it kind of gets lost in the background. Difficulty with four lanes, right? You get one car who stops and somebody's walking who thinks the next car is going to stop and they don't know why that first car stopped and they assume about it. Don't they have a little bit of a lab system like that? And that was discussed down in the circuit. But the one on Dyan Street I don't know. I just agree that it works somewhat but I see people standing there for a good three or four minutes waiting to cross while the lights are on. I just wonder if it's perfect because sometimes it just goes off for days there. To be honest, yeah. So just wrap things up. The next steps here we'll be doing our best to pull together the two months of information and the notes into some bundles or sets of alternatives that we'll be evaluating over the next few months. We'll be back. Watch Frontport's forum and other locations for announcements for public meeting in June. Probably co-host it if you'll have us with the bike mission. And then finalizing that in September. Everyone who has the hinted out will have the information the project website is here. Jason And then we'll stick around if anyone has anything else they want to talk through and if you have their announcement. If you don't write the link now just leave them on your way out on their podium. Thanks. And if you need errors for days, direct lines just let me know. And now there's a meeting that you've got more to your meetings and we'll finally wrap up. We're going to take a short two minute break so that everybody who doesn't want to stay can leave. I know that some of you might be working on evaluations if you don't mind maybe doing that out in the hall if it's going to be more than a couple minutes we would appreciate that so we can continue on with our meeting and thank you everyone who came out tonight. Thank you. And if anyone wants to have a group with a little... If you want to piece people to take me away please take mine. Of course. The item on our agenda is the design review of the Lot 7D development. Eric, I will turn it over to you. Yeah, thank you. At the council meeting on the last council meeting the city council reviewed the hotel development on Lot 7D and had some discussion. With this process city council is responsible for the design and basically the permitting for any development that happens in downtown to kind of set the stage with that. So there was a proposal that was put together for Lot 7D and just to orient you on the aerial here Wojcicki falls away. Lot 7D is this third lot below CCV. So the proposal is for a around 100 unit hotel room hotel space parking garage. The parking garage will be owned by the city. The hotel will be owned by a different entity. So council reviewed the initial design of that project at their last meeting and Amy was there not representing the planning commission specifically with their provide comments. The chair of the DRV was also at that meeting provided some comments. So in that discussion council asked planning commission to take a look at the design and to look at any changes that were going to be made and provide input on what was going forward. So at your places and hopefully I realize I just put it out tonight but at your place was a memo from me to council that outlines the discussion that happened at that council meeting and this is a memo that has not gone to council yet just so you're aware of that. Council has not gotten this memo. This will be going to them at their meeting on Tuesday. So it is a memo that I put together that outlines the comments that happened at their last meeting and then what the response was from the architect and the design team. We had a follow-up meeting with the architect to discuss the comments and the several categories and then talks about how they were addressed by the architect. So what I have for you to show you is the original design so you can see what those renderings look like. And then also I have some updated designs. Unfortunately I don't have updated renderings but I do have some updated elevations and I can talk about some of what has changed along with that and John Rauscher is here as well to talk about some of the other parts and pieces if necessary. So looking at the original design and actually I'm going to steal this mic from your house just so we're on some audio here. So looking at the original design keep in mind this is these are some renderings of what was presented to council at their last meeting. So we have the CCV Casavanne Hackerleria. So it's kind of an overview. Here is a view of the hotel looking from Abnaki Way at the parking garage and kind of the main entrance to the hotel. The next slide is kind of another perspective looking at Abnaki Way and the hotel kind of that canted angle with Winnowski Falls continuing through to Casavanne down here. And then the last slide is looking at the street level Abnaki Way at the intersection of Abnaki Way and Winnowski Falls way. So this is what you would see as you were driving down Winnowski Falls way. So this is what was discussed at council which is what the comments in the memo relate to. So when we had the meeting with the architects the architect proposed there was a lot of concern to generally summarize the comments. There was concern about access to Casavanne there was concerns about the angling of the building. There was concerns about the connection between the building and the street. There was some concerns about how that front facade that you would see coming down Winnowski Falls way would look from a visual perspective. So the architect has proposed to rotate the building so it squares up to the street. So now we have Abnaki Way the building is now aligned with the street parking garage is generally in the same location. That whole lot has changed from that perspective. There is now a sidewalk about Winnowski Falls way to provide some access into Casavanne. This front facade is now oriented with rooms instead of instead of just the stairwell which was in the previous rendering. The whole facade will be windows basically. The whole front first floor will be oriented to kind of the front house operation. So that will all be a glass facade on the front at street level as well. So this is kind of an overview of the project. The next view we have so this is an elevation. This is the east elevation that looks out to Casavanne. So it's got windows along the whole side of the building. These are all guest rooms. They would overlook Casavanne basically. Potentially, yeah. So here's the parking garage over here on the side. Here's kind of the entrance of the canopy. So this there will be a sidewalk along this. So this is kind of the little that part is this little L shaped jut out here that you're seeing. So then from the south exposure so this is a long Winooski Falls way. That would be right here. So this is what you would see as you walk along Winooski Falls way. Again, guest rooms oriented along this side. The ground floor has this big window here and there will be a sidewalk along this getting back to Casavanne which would be over here roughly. The next elevation is looking north. This is the building still. These are all guest rooms here. Basically this is the from the parking deck looking down. And is that to the right of those doors that's full of glass so that wraps around? To the right of these doors here. I'm not sure how much of that's going to be glass but I believe a significant So this this would be at Mackie way here. Okay. So this is basically the driveway that would go in. So I'm not sure how much of that is programmed with glass. And then this is what you would see coming along Winooski Falls way. This is going to be the view that you would see so this fronting, this is the fronting along at Mackie way. So this is all now glass on the front. So it's really a much different facade from what the previous so basically it went from it went from this that view to this view is what the architect is now proposing. Can you go back to the view to the north elevations? Yes. Because based on the drawings you just showed for the west elevation and it almost looks in that drawing to the left of the doors. Some scored block or something around the window. So that's actually the sign for the hotel. So it doesn't look like it's pretty blah to the both sides of the doors. It doesn't look like glass based on what they drew for the north. This is full detail yet. I think the architect has been working pretty hard to get us to this point. One other view I wanted to show from this perspective is going to be I can find it here. One of these layouts. So basically this is not what I wanted to show you but this kind of gives an idea of what the guest rooms are going to be oriented to be. So that's why you have windows throughout the whole project now is because the guest rooms have been kind of reorganized as well to show this is what I wanted to show you. So this is the ground floor. So this is Abanaki Way on this side. This is kind of that front entrance area here that we were just looking at. So this is all now glass. This is all their kind of front house operations. The checking all that stuff. The seating area around that that's going to look out onto Abanaki Way. And I believe there's a doorway on here as well. So you'll have direct access out to Abanaki Way or into the hotel from that side also. Is that a little cafe or three tables? I believe that's their breakfast area for their guests down here in this corner. Over here. I think this is kind of their breakfast nook area. So again I realize there's not a lot of detail here but this is a lot of and my understanding is that at the council meeting next Tuesday they will have renderings similar to what they presented the first time. Like these to show kind of how the two have changed. So like I said in the middle of the discussion and what the comments were versus how they were changed there's also some additional incorporation of ADA accessibility and other routes. There is design for potential charging stations electric people charging stations in the garage. There is discussion about a connection to the CCD property I think that's ongoing with the folks at CCD to have a direct connection to the garage. So there are still a lot of discussions happening but this is an updated version and really the intent here is the charge from council was to bring this to you all to provide any additional comments or any additional input that you want to take back or you want to have sent back to their meeting as you look at the project and the design. I don't know if John is going on or if John is more involved in the design specifically. John is a part of the design team collectively whereas I'm not and since I'm doing I would be responsible for the permitting I've been discussing this purposefully So we tried to keep sort of a firewall for Eric since he's the regulator technically on this. No I mean the only other thing I'd add is on the parking garage you will see some of the interior I think changed based on some of the comments that we had closer to the street so that it's better access for ADA to the street side I couldn't really tell Are they at the street or are they just closer to the street? So they're working updates the exterior really won't change but those will be presented on Tuesday as well Right but also if you did have a connection to CCD that might change that location as well There were some additional comments that were provided with the council meeting by Councillor Mack about some of the treatments of the garage that were forwarded on the architect so we don't know what those look like yet again that will be more information that comes out of the council meeting So at this point there's no connection direct connection between the hotel and the parking garage Correct Just like a 24 watt I mean how wide is that space between the buildings? So it was 30 feet I don't know what it is with this current rendering So that's one of the reasons for this massing is obviously those hotel rooms the backside of the parking garage they're not in that space as much as possible so that doesn't look like the parking garage and I think last time we reviewed it that sort of drive in is at least 3 feet so the backside maybe 10 feet between the garage and those hotel rooms There's also some questions about circulation with drop off and into the garage and some of that still I think is going to be dependent on how access is controlled in the garage in general which we won't know that I definitely have concerns for that Is it the garage shut? How do you get in that area? Is it the reorientation of the building and opened up that space between the two so it provides potentially some additional room there for turning around if necessary We also talked about it doesn't seem to be showing up here that's not the parking space on the street maintaining those on street spaces for possible drop off and things like that I think as many parking spaces you could get along that whole street edge would be good because it seems like I don't know if you have a clearance based on the driveway locations but because one thing I brought up in the meeting is that they have pavement all the way from the building face all the way out to the curb edge and mind you I think that's great if there's going to be parking along that whole edge but if there's not parking we don't need paving all the way out to the street just from like you got to treat it and things like that I'd rather see it green Do I take it to the entrance to the garage I missed it is somewhere on the south side of the garage so between the garage and the So there would be a direct entrance to the garage from Kikiru Hotel there's also public access to the garage off of that Machiway as a separate entrance The other question I had from that plan is the width of the drive on the south side of the hotel accessing Casablanca Park Is it a two-lane street or is it a one-way street So it's exactly the line that's shown there is the existing edge of pavement that's out there now There's currently an easement parking easement for that existing access And that was one of our main concerns going into sign because there's a lot of utility underground utilities in that location so trying not to disrupt and then just trying to make sure we can kind of see we've also created a potential pocket park Yeah, what is that? Yeah, right back here in this corner of the hotel they've identified that as a potential pocket park Kind of as a one of the comments that came up at the council meeting was having some sort of entrance for Casablanca or some sort of announcement that you're entering Casablanca that that could potentially be used for something like that But all the back of house operations would be handled underground inside the hotel basically is what they're still proposing So where would your truck still come back to that area? I think they would move it somewhere in here I don't know if they've had that figured out directly but there would be some access that's not necessarily the whole way back that they would access those operations I believe that's the intent I have a question about the garage The garage is not just for the hotel it's also for CCB Correct So are there going to be any bike parking facilities in there? There will have to be There's part of our regulations yet that I believe there will have to be I didn't hear it or see it here Our current I don't know offhand but I believe it is programmed in If it's not, I just want to have that comment I'll make a note of it to have that comment just to make sure Does the hotel have to have anything parking bike parking? I don't know I don't know if they specifically do just by the use typically we tie in our regular zoning we tie parking spaces so that when you use a certain threshold that's when you start it starts requiring additional bicycle spaces similarly the way we treat handicapped parking spaces so I'd have to look to see if there's any provisions specifically in the downtown district otherwise we would probably look to the base the base zoning because it could be a nice amenity in a poppy park Is there an actual designated service entry for the hotel or is it where would they be loading and receiving? There will be, yes and it will be somewhere along Abnecki way sorry, Wynuski Falls way on that back side I'm just wondering how that could affect if there are large trucks making deliveries because there's that it's going to be a once tomorrow vote a little bit of an awkward 90 degree vote and there are large trucks that are going to stop understanding is that all deliveries all services will happen back off here off Wynuski Falls way into the back of the building my concern would be is there enough space trucks will actually be able to get in and out of that area safely without backing out into the traffic or looks like a narrow So at the upper end of that diagram next to Casavet is there a pavement where the parking is along Redstone is there a pavement between there and the park right there so that there could be a turnaround I think there is some because that's where they have the dumpsters for the whichever building or house yeah I think we will have to have a sort of a truck training study done what I've seen is that you use that dumpster back in on the pavement limit and then come out but that's a pretty simple analysis I'm just wondering sometimes things in a project like this get proposed as being a service entrance and then because they're so functional useless that the front lobby ends up being the delivery site and if trucks can't get in and out of that or if they have to exit through the garage and they can't fit through the garage that can create some confusion yeah I think in this case the design of where the front entrance is is going to be so inconvenient that nobody is going to want to nobody is going to be driving a truck because that's kind of the way I'm envisioning it but that's just my opinion I'm just foreseeing the poor truck driver who gets mired on Abinac way and traffic is building up behind him and there's really nothing he can do in a bad traffic situation the access into Casablan that's shown there what's the width of that there was always discussion there needs to be adequate access for emergency vehicles in case something happens it looks like a narrow sidewalk I don't know if that's yeah so we're basically we'd be maintaining it to the same width it is now one of the issues with that access point is there's archeological sensitive areas just sort of where that kind of tree is I guess on the east side of the trail so there's not much that we can do without getting into the archeological sensitive area and with the wetlands kind of pretty close to that section we're trying to stay out of that area as much as possible so it's just going to save me again yeah I mean we've either done some work on expanding that access to allow for emergency vehicles and I think we might pursue that I thought the way it was it could accommodate emergency vehicles but maybe not I think talking to the consultant he had a proposal to build out that access road that could accommodate emergency vehicles and then that opens up potential doing concerts back there and doing some other big events but we do that separate to this project and it's also I mean the discussion about bike parking it would make sense I think to have something near that pocket park is I would think that bicyclists would want to use that area now or bike right into the parking connect with the path along the way in your dream of that bike path Mike I'm 100% that bike path continuing down this way along the river when you get your bike it'll happen don't hold your breath is there some public access easement between the redstone property and the parcels do we not know where that is well that's a right away but we've given an easement for parking there I don't know what the I'm going to guess it was originally a 60 foot right away and I remember doing the easement for a river house or whatever for that parking I remember also there was a city council on that if it was still accessible to the public it is but I don't know how many feet that was I'm pretty sure it's 60 it makes sense because it must be 60 feet it was just an extension of that just an observation that I'm making from seeing at the proposed sketches I do see that there are some comments on aesthetic so I would put this forward I see this like projecting feature on the building that doesn't look entirely structural I would think that that would have like this area as it's being densely built up there's an opportunity for that to become kind of an urban canyon where there's not a whole lot of like sunlight into the area it seems like something completely unnecessary if it's block block coming down the street or effects the neighbors in there I think the purpose of it originally is because we said there needs to be something on the corner to pull you down so we wanted some kind of architectural element and correct me if I'm wrong here I think that was sort of their way of which I think it's just subtle I sort of like it so where are we standing here? this is looking down Newsy Falls way towards no, if you're on Newsy Falls way looking to Cassavan so maybe you have public art instead of instead of I'm just thinking of it like a similar scenario is like the Vermont Air National Guard building up by the limestone bridge they have a similar feature to this and it projects off the building I can't see it as a sort of structural unnecessary detrimental for a real reason maybe three or four feet protrudes out further maybe and it's way up too it is blocking the view it's a beautiful natural area just to be blocking it from where though if you're walking it's so I'm wondering one of the other comments that came up at the council meeting was trying to screen the power lines in Cassavan so this may be an attempt at providing some sort of screening from as you're looking towards Cassavan you don't see those power lines that's an assumption yeah so I can see if you're looking down Abnaki Way because there was the design of the whole thing was to leave the view so this is that view so it's not it's not sticking out forward onto Abnaki Way show me the south facade I just noticed it's something like the newer construction of the city it doesn't show looking at the north facade but I don't know if that's three feet, five feet ten feet, a foot it's obviously not a foot it's got to be four or five feet it's got to be four or five feet probably so that would be the only to me the only thing because there was the play in the I don't always the reason the river house whatever the one closest the natural area is is where it is there's a space between them so you get the view down Abnaki to the right and so if that impedes that view at all my I think even for me on like a broader scale I think something that unnecessarily blocks passage of light through the neighborhood I think is not a positive thing I think a lot of our buildings how that affects the street state looks attractive but then it has really detrimental effects you mean like the V-SAC building that actually comes to mind yes it makes a very dark cavernous area and that's not a looming overhang but I'm sure at certain times they walk in thoughts so that was one thing that they don't get in there so how do you actually get if you're on the sidewalk in a wheelchair yes so they do have and it's not showing on these plans but there is an ADA route and a separate route from going up the vehicular I believe there was a plan to do that to have some separation but I don't know offhand what it was but that was, I believe I mentioned that in the comments as well that was definitely something to be discussed and the architect was going to be trying to determine how that was going to be best accomplished so we do not have to take any decisive action on this you're going to bring our comments back so the council will meet on next Tuesday the 19th and I believe it's there's a potential that they will approve the design so what I was going to do is forward so I've got five parking spaces along Abenaki Way along the whole length of it potentially for sure trying to get those in there and these are just very paraphrased right now more green space along the street slash hardscaping bike parking all around and near the pocket park truck access and turnaround space for deliveries in the for the back of the house and then maybe more detail or explanation of the projecting piece on the front as it may block light or unintended views because if it is intended to block transmission lines I don't want them to that was the comment that came out of the last meeting so it could be a reaction to that so those are the comments I have right now to forward to council unless there's anything else looking at Abenaki Way someone needs to do some research to make sure that it's not a covenant of the down cut and also they do models so they they could run a model and show us what it looks like right yeah okay I will share those perhaps given the time we should table proving the minutes unless we think the for council I don't know if we need to take formal action I mean you can if you want but I don't know if that needs to be informed I think you've gone over our list we provided our feedback and you're also welcome to attend that meeting provide comments as well if you'd like I don't know set of minutes that I put your place was the wrong set so I'm new set there so I don't know if you've had a chance to look at those yet or look them previous to the meeting before we get off of this real quick the parking garage facade of the parking garage there's no change in that because that has to be I think for the act 250 downtown permit it has to be it can't look like a parking garage it doesn't have a facade that looks like a building or there may be some changes we I didn't get any updates to that but it's possible there will be because as I mentioned councilor Mackinac provided some comments on that as well after the last meeting with some examples of treatments of other parking garage and again it's part of the act so does it agree that she really was stressing in the front part of the parking garage if you get any kind of use there yeah we talked about that and it was I think the challenge was creating a space that was large enough to be usable that didn't that didn't reduce the program of the parking garage so I think that was a struggle that the architect was trying to address so I don't know where he ended up with that but I know we did talk about it at the follow up meeting from council but I don't even know how the city is going to own that parking garage or how they're working I think that was another one of the questions that came up too is how that would whether or not the city wanted to manage retail space or commercial space so is that all open air the parking garage so the above grade like the facade sort of clear space but lower okay if people have additional costs can I email you Eric? can you email me or like I said attend the council meeting and share them directly with council? wonderful okay next item is approving the minutes I make a motion to approve the minutes is it going to be the second? second all those in favor? aye it's approved that brings us to city updates Eric, are there any updates? I'm not at this time nothing critical though great in that case do I have a motion to adjourn I'll make a motion to adjourn second go ahead thank you very much for your time tonight I'm noticing all the air is going to be and hosting the I guess you're done