 There might be some stragglers after lunch, but we can get started slowly So thanks everybody for showing up to this panel today I'm really excited to be here on stage with all of these subject matter experts. I Myself have learned so much just from talking to them and working on this this research that we're about to talk about so Really pleased to be here and to have the opportunity. I just flew in to Bilbao earlier today after a lot of flight issues, but It's a beautiful city. I it's so nice to be here and Appreciate the language the Basque language is not the same as the Spanish language So just give my I'll just give myself a brief introduction and then we'll get into more of the meat of the of the session So I'm Anna Hermansen. I'm the ecosystem manager at LF research And I've been here. I've been at the LF for almost a year now I have a background in qualitative research and health care and I've also done work in the sustainability space and Actually right when I started this this job There was an email in my inbox from Hillary talking about the LF sustainability initiative I don't think it was called that then but we were we were thinking about how we could map all of the LF projects and all the work that's been done in this community to the different sustainability goals and That has really led into a very grounded initiative that has a lot of people behind it providing their own expertise and Perspectives on how the LF is supporting these really important initiatives out of the UN so So to give a better introduction to the research We recently published a research report called open source for sustainability It came out last week and in that report we mapped out the many different LF projects and how they map to the different 17 sustainable development goals our author also got into the value of these digital public goods generally speaking that the LF community creates and how these Public goods really interact nicely with with the work of the UN and the ethos of of the UN and the sustainable development goals So I'm here today with four as previously mentioned subject matter experts some of which were interviewed on the report and they're going to provide their perspective on how their own work and their projects relate to the sustainable development goals and And what they what was kind of talked about in this report so just as a Heads up. I'm hoping this conversation will be very fluid. There's a lot of content we could get into here And we also want to leave some time for audience questions So please keep those in mind and if you have a burning question We could always get to it at that moment if it needs to be asked right away But yeah, we're really happy to hear from the audience as well And I just have some questions on my laptop, which is why I might be looking at my screen So why don't I pass it over? We'll start with Kate to do some introductions And security safety and Which overlaps into the space quite a bit Why the projects I've been working on most my time the app is the Zebra project And the Zebra project started with the recognition that the lens kernel does not get smaller than a certain size And using a smaller than a set of resources And when you have to be resource constrained, which a lot of the new products are for sustainability reasons Zephyr does just build exactly what you need and It's been best goals for going up to best security profiles and then we can't save here is what some of these are overlapping with But in resource constrained situations, it's a efficient effective solution for a lot of Processing method and do things just at a bare level, bare meta level as well as communicating with a lot of different steps So that's Thanks, Kate My name is Sumer Johal. I'm the executive director of Agstack, which is a project of the Linux Foundation Agstack is a digital infrastructure for food and ag in open source and aims to achieve the same sorts of efficiencies and you know really Multiplier effects in efficiency for the entire global food ecosystem that you know the operating system Linux Created for computing back 30 years ago So the idea behind Agstack was comes from the fact that the world You know has a massively inefficient food supply about 30% of our food is wasted a third of the people in the world are hungry Agriculture employs about 50% of the labor in the world Let me repeat that half the labor force of the world is employed in agriculture 70% of all fresh water is used in agriculture and so as we look at the triple threats of population growth you know climate change and Geopolitical unrest and food insecurity the need for Creating neutral secure infrastructure to enable both Digital creation of content and consumption of content at scale is imperative. So the digital public infrastructure piece of this is what Agstack aims to do and some of our projects are public Public interest projects many of them are now starting to become Interesting for large private sector enterprises as well. So really excited to be on the stage with my esteemed colleagues Great. Hi there. My name is Matt Sando. I've been working in finance for the last 25 years most of that in BMP Parabas Bank in risk management and We looked at the the climate problem from a finance perspective where there is a there is a huge need to Accelerate financing towards the transition. So helping companies adapt to to be to become decarbonized and And we looked at this problem and decided that much of that can be handled at the collaborative layer So BMP Parabas along with Goldman Sachs, Allianz and Amazon web services and a few others We founded OS climate which stands for open source climate and that sits under the LF umbrella as a member driven nonprofit organization and Primarily our mission then is to is to collaborate across the research Community industry commercial data providers Financial firms in order to work on sort of three main Layers one is how do we construct tooling and data? Collections which will help us decarbonize in investment portfolios The second piece is how do we understand and model the carbon transition? So how do we understand the many different ways that the world is going to decarbonize and the different speeds at which it will move So when we move to different energy mixes in the world it's very important for financing that everybody is aligned and goes in the same direction and Finally with the changing climate conditions as we see increased Cases of extreme weather events droughts wildfires heat waves and then an emergence of chronic risk with Average in a rising sea levels average temperature levels rising We felt also that we need to help financial institutions understand that risk and also see if we can use that Understanding into to bring a new type of resilience finance products into the industry And I'm currently now fully seconded to OS climate from the bank until April next year In the next Work Strategic We will talk about strategy The landscape the Forward-looking challenges and the trend So these are things we're looking at so from our SD perspective We'll look at one of the things that we're looking at is global challenges on the resource, especially in this time with a lot of geoclip challenges. And on the vertical side, we realize that energy is a very important challenge. There are a lot of applications for ICD on that side. There's also a lot of opportunities from how we can rethink energy production and consumption. So those are things that are very upcoming emerging things that we think a lot about every day. So we feel like we can help contribute in that emotion of energy and also how we can contribute to the ICD goals of the United Nations. And hopefully through our contribution, working with collaborators, we can collectively achieve those ICD goals. Thank you. Thanks, Chris. Thanks, everybody. So I've chunked out this session into a few different topics, and I was thinking we would start with energy sustainability, which relates back to SDG7, which is affordable and clean energy. And so, Kate, first question for you. So in the report and actually what you just mentioned in your introduction, you spoke about Zephyr's inception as being a response to the massive energy needs of the Linux kernel. And I was wondering if you could give us some examples of why this small energy footprint is important in the context of some specific use cases that Zephyr is in. So Zephyr is very much designed to be able to work when you don't have access to being plugged into something. And so you're seeing Zephyr in things like devices that are used for tracking temperature as products move through the supply chain to make sure that a vaccine doesn't go above a certain temperature threshold or that the food stays within a temperature range when it is being shipped to market. We have examples of trackers like this already for Zephyr out in the field, as well as devices for tracking where your dog is in the neighborhood or your cat is in the neighborhood. So these things have to last for a long time. You don't want to be charging something every day and sometimes you want it for a week. Right now there's an actually electrical grid monitor that's done with Zephyr that they check on it. The battery for it lasts for 10 years. And you want to basically be, if you're tracking animals, you don't want to be changing the tag, the ear tags on them or the equivalent of an electric cowbell on them. So we have devices and products out in the field today that are doing these types of tasks, as well as you're seeing Zephyr in things like the energy grid for, like the Libra Solar project has been around for a couple of years and it basically creates microgrid and they're using Zephyr in that to go from the solar panels to the home systems. There's reference examples out there of AC monitoring, DC monitoring, and we know that it's already in wind turbines and so it's sitting inside embedded in wind turbines. So things that have to last out in the field it's becoming a really good solution for those types of applications and helping with the sustainability and the efficiency. Thanks. Chris, I'm looking at you because I heard the word microgrids and Chris and I worked along with a bunch of other members of the LF Energy community and research community on a research project on microgrids. I'm wondering if you have a follow-up to what Kate's just talked about. Yes, actually Zephyr project is a kind of typical example of how ICT engage and provide value to the energy systems. She's talking about IoT. IoT makes use of a lot of connections, internet connections, mobile networks, 5G networks, because you're going to do this in remote places and those employees need real ways to get the signals back. All of those are built on top of 5G and those are private networking solutions that ICT companies and industries provide. So from all point of view, we're working from ICT perspective, we're looking at more of a holistic way of doing things, meaning networking side, we have a networking protocol called the network carbon intensity. It's basically evaluating the networking side of the carbon emissions trying to reduce that carbon emission so that it provides a way for telecom operators or manufacturers a way to measure their carbon efficiency of their equipment. And also, holistically, we have a networking side, we also have a compute side. On the compute side, we're working, we're engaged with this GSM, GSM Green Software Foundation on defining the software carbon emission specification. Those contribute to the software contribution of carbon efficiencies. And on the other side, we're also looking at how we can continue to improve that to provide more like a more holistic way, meaning we have a standard and any individual vendors can apply those standards in their application development or development. So we're doing this more of a holistic view to address that energy problem. And then we have a vertical project that's an open source network grid that will address fundamentally the energy production, more carbon efficient production of energy. So that's why we have this open source micro grid project. So we're trying to attack this issue from multiple approaches with a systematic approach. So that's our way to do this. Thanks. So just kind of picking up on the concept of approaching a problem holistically, I'd like to turn to Sumer at this point. And we were just speaking earlier today about how AgStack looks at really, really big problems. I mean, you just mentioned today the stats on agricultural sector. So I was wondering if in the report, AgStack's focus is on open data. Can you elaborate on the types of data needed in the agriculture sector to advance these really large issues and solutions to them and what AgStack is doing to address these data needs? Sure. So it's really a mind blowing sort of dizzying array of challenges in the agriculture sector. The food supply chain is massive and ubiquitous because we all need to eat. And we don't really think about it, but every time you grow food, when you pump water to irrigate your field or when you apply fertilizer, those fertilizer has an energy payload and a carbon payload that goes onto the field. When you transport food, when you refrigerate food, when you package food, when you do anything to food along the supply chain, global supply chains, you're expending energy. And so because a third of the food is wasted and a third of the people are hungry, it's a massively wasteful ecosystem today. I mean, in any other sector, I used to work in the semiconductor sector, if we found 1% efficiency, that was like a massive benefit. So some of the examples that we see, one of the projects we're working on is called a field carbon model project where we're trying to quantify the carbon flux on an agriculture field and which have three levels of precision. One is completely remotely sensed, which is data pipelines from satellites and weather feeds and work that has been done over the last decades by scientists all over the world. The second level of that is in-field instrumentation, where we actually see soil moisture and soil temperature measurements and that directly connects to things like Zephyr devices that can provide that input to quantify the field carbon flux. And the third level is actually activity modeling where the activities themselves like applying fertilizer or applying a pesticide or doing pest management where you're actually predicting what pests are going to manifest based on weather data sets. All of these are actually public information. The models of how to do the science is already there. The data that model needs to compute for a given field is also still there. What is not there is the middleware. It's essentially how do you make that model, that data accessible to the global south? You know, the half the world's labor force that's working in agriculture, they're not working in the global north, they're working in the global south. How do you make that accessible to them in ways that is inclusive, is very much protective of their privacy? So things like data wallets, you know, that comes into play in sharing information from farmers back and forth. There's an entire regulatory framework that Europe has launched called the European deforestation regulation, which requires coffee growers, for example, or many other commodities, to actually share their data. How are they going to do so? And if you cannot share where they grow the food, they can actually be prohibitive from exporting coffee into Europe, which is by the way the largest coffee market in the world. So the implications are so massive, and this is such an important field, it's just that we are so detached from our food production nowadays that we just don't understand that this is actually an existential and very important topic. Part of what we are trying to do is really engage with the entire ecosystem of LF, not just Agstag, but all the ecosystem, you know, projects like West Climate, like Zephora and others, to really bring to the forefront the opportunities for us to really build a future supply chain for food that is more sustainable both in energy and in nutrition. And, you know, to build on that, there's actually reference examples that are out there today. You know, here's how you do a soil moisture monitor. So there's public reference examples that people can go access their devices from and then put them in the field in an efficient way, and then using the communication capability that's in those Zephora things to communicate to some centralized hub to pull the data on to a phone line and ship it somewhere. Yeah, and, you know, to that point, the ESG practices of large CPG companies, you know, big brands, for example, they have supply chains where they're getting food from like 100 countries. How do you get the same moisture and temperature sensor even manufactured and available to farmers across 100 countries? And you do that through open source. You do that through standardization. You do that through the widgets that we know how to build and maintain in a pre-competitive way such that this ecosystem can really transition to the next economy. When you are actually in the field, it's a very resource constraints. You want solar to potentially power your device in order to pull this stuff forward. And so, like I say, there's many dimensions where we have to be efficient and effective. And as we pull this, as we create these technologies and make them able to scale, you know, that's the challenge. And that's quite frankly making sure we can share them all with people so that we can make awareness there that these things exist already. And then hopefully other people gather together and help refine and enhance them too. Yes, as they put all these IoT devices out there in the field, in the mountains in the larger field, you mentioned about the devices that need to power its own using solar. Actually, I know that some companies do this in Himalayas with a 5G station with a power antenna. And that's why we promote the NCI standard, which is a network company intensive standard, trying to basically do zero watts, zero bits. If there's no communication, they just shut itself down. If there's communication, it powers up. So you get the efficiency of that telecom equipment of 5G based stations. Another example I'm aware of in the Zephyr ecosystem is they put tags on reindeer up in the Scandinavian countries that are running Zephyr and communicating with satellites to track the animals. But then it's efficient and effective because if the wolves prey on the reindeer, they get insurance. And so because they get insurance, the herders are actually motivated to tag the animals and track them. And that sort of helps pay for the tagging and the technology infrastructure. And that's there today. Yeah, I think one thing that I want to mention, which is like we have this kind of a little bit of a bias for the tech ecosystem we know, which is good, which is very good and it's needed. But there's also a huge amount of information, just pure data, that could be used to make better decisions. For example, what crop should a farmer grow, right? It doesn't have to be some of the farmers for price, for incomes. Those are the SDG goals, poverty. Those are SDG goals. So what crop should a farmer grow? That's information about demand cycles, about pricing. What crop should the farmer grow for a better soil? Not just for income. And these choices and decisions are all done in the absence of good information. And so a lot of this is not just about hardware devices and IoT. That's a big part of it. But it's also about just better decisions along the supply chain by practitioners and not just farmers either, all through the supply chain. And there's a huge amount of risk management, for example, that could be done around these decisions for farmers and upstream on their supply chain. Yeah, Matt, can we hear from you? And I see you nodding a lot. And I know this is relevant to what OS climate is doing. Yeah, I mean, what we've just heard is a problem that the financial community has got on a scale of hundreds of thousands or millions because they're lending and investing in many different assets and companies around the world. So really the problem is that we need to geocode the metadata of the entire globe. For example, describing those carbon footprints, those supply chain dynamics. And so we can make the right decision is around where those investment portfolios lend. And those decisions also have to be forward-looking because we need to understand CAPEX commitments and strategies around where footprints are today in companies but where they will be in the future. When you combine that with all the other data we've just described and heard about with macroeconomic data, different scenario pathways, different climate hazard data, describing floods, wildfires and the work likes. We're talking about a significant amount of data coming from a significant number of different sources. So we will never have a single golden source to solve this problem. We don't want a gigantic data lake for sure. So the approach that OS climate took in a project led by Red Hat was to build a data mesh architecture to handle the delivery of data to the users that need it. And that's the aggregation of data from the multiple different sources. So speaking from non-tech person, what I can tell you is the way I consider that mesh is it's a data federation approach, which means that you are federating data from multiple sources rather than actually copying it and storing it centrally. This brings many advantages in terms of the way the data governance is managed because the primary core data governance is held at source. And then the providers of the data can then make a selection as to how and where that data is shared. So obviously the more open data the better, the more it becomes trusted, which is we want to make decisions that are transparent and trusted. So that's obviously a key thing, but there may be cases where we need to share data from supply chain and end to start of supply chain. There may be cases where a lender needs to share money, share data with an investor. So the way to do that is to use a data federation approach. So that's the mesh architecture. What we also like about it is the fact that I've kind of hinted on it two things, you can actually combine commercial data then with a public data model. So we expect the amount of public and open data to grow over time, but we will never solve the entire problem of the world with just public data. The second brilliant thing about this mesh context is that it's data agnostic, which means it's also attracting the attention of the biodiversity in nature community. So we're hoping that through discussions with that community they may be able to take this completely open source blueprint of a mesh and apply it to solve the biodiversity in nature crisis that we're also heading into. Yeah, and so again the technology is trying to help here as well in the biodiversity side where we've got a lot of endangered species out there right now, and we've got a lot of poachers. And so one of the recent use cases we learned about from Zephyr is basically implanting trackers into rhino horns and they've actually been able to catch the poacher and basically are able to prosecute. So being able to track the animals, being able to help with the very limited resources that some of these parks have is we're starting to see some of that start to take off. And we're also seeing it like a wider range in domestic animals in areas that don't have fences and in detection and so forth. But these things are all part of the story. Yeah, just wanted to sort of top off what Kate said around herd management. In agriculture you have massive herds of animals. People are managing from two buffaloes in a household to just herds of entire massive, massive herds. So in milk production, for example, there's a big need for managing the health of the cow. People don't really realize that milk comes from cows and that cow's health, it's not a factory, it's an animal and she needs to lactate and the health of that animal and tracking the health. And so now some of the large CPG companies are creating trying to, but I think they could benefit from an open source architecture and standard methodologies to create the bio-cycles of the cow and what nutrition does the cow need at what stage of the life to ensure the milk production is actually healthy. And there's hundreds of millions of farmers who are basically depending on that cow to be healthy so that the milk can be produced. And the milk itself, did you know that one third of the milk production in India is actually goes right down the drain within 24 hours of milking? Do you know that the actual carbon footprint of milk is so huge because you have to grow the crop to feed the cow to then get the cow to a pregnancy state, have the calf, then the lactation starts. It's just incredible how much effort and then why? No refrigeration, why? Because there's not enough sensors, not enough electricity. There's a lot of pieces to this puzzle that we have the solutions to. And I think an open source architecture provides these Lego blocks for the entire, you know, ecosystem, entire supply chains of these large companies who are sourcing milk, for example, across herbs, across huge geographic regions. Yeah, so I mean we're coming up to maybe asking some audience questions but I'd love to get everyone's opinion kind of around that topic of this, as you mentioned earlier, this pre-competitive state that is being built by these Lego blocks or these projects that can support this kind of collaboration before you get to a more kind of competitive state. And maybe tying that into why open source in particular is so important for these really big sustainability crises that we're facing. Maybe start, you're holding the mic. Yeah, I'm happy to start. From the person that knew very little about open source a few years ago, I can probably tell you how remarkable it really is. Fundamentally, the great thing is sharing in the pre-competitive work because in the exact, everything we've just talked about, 90% or 80 to 90% of the problem sits in the pre-competitive space. There's no intellectual property for a bank to build its own climate model, for example. So we can collaborate. And if you hire a data scientist to try to come up with a really important project to help climate or biodiversity, they're going to spend 90% of their time trying to structure data, collect it, work out a lab environment, etc., etc. Whereas they can share that load through open source. And it's a very agile way of operating, in fact, as well, so you can go much faster. And then the wonderful thing on top of that is that when you then bring in commercial providers and commercial operators that are in the build services on top of the platform, if they can all collaborate together at the pre-competitive layer to build common codes and common standards, getting people talking about the problem with a common language, then you can create much more interesting products and commerce on top of the open layer. So I'm a convert, for sure. So I think one of the examples I wanted to give was a large CPG company that's trying to source raw supply food from 100 countries. And one of the unique challenges they have without having access to open source is they can't get the same products manufactured, the same standards actually even implemented by keeping it in a proprietary stack. So it's not just a nice to have. It's a necessity for these companies to essentially invest in open source and not just one project but many of the sub-projects so that their solutions can be quick, but really their solutions can even be possible. So I just wanted to emphasize that some of the things aren't even possible without open source because you cannot manufacture the same sensor, for example, in 16 different designs all doing basically a non-proprietary thing and expect the answers to be all consistent. It just doesn't happen. Just physically impossible. I think another aspect of the question of why open source is helpful for sustainability development from the, I think, open source represents a public good. Sustainable development is very much aligned in terms of the mindset, in terms of vision, in terms of ideas. So open source is, I think, a natural home for sustainability development. Practically, open source is a very good go-to market. It's a very good democratization mechanism. If you build a proper solution, yes, you control everything, but nowadays you intend to have mass adoption of your solution. And the business model has evolved and changed. So open source is a very advantageous way, especially for sustainable development products and solutions. And one of the challenges with open source is the fact that you don't know all the places where it's actually being used. And so some of the things that can be actually done to help open source projects is to let them know that you are using them so that they can inspire other people to do similar sorts of things as well so we can get the scale. And I guess on that note, if someone has a product that they're running Zephyr right now on, that they can come tell me about afterwards, I have some kites with Zephyr and I'm happy to give them, if they can point me at a product that I don't know about already, I would love to give them a kite because that helps the Zephyr project and helps people understand how this is all being used and being able to tell these stories. It does help these projects and it does help the rest of us as well. Can I make one more point? Just for the, from a perspective of messaging to private sector companies to become members and supporters of open source, I wanted to emphasize one thing that when we say open source or the free software, the free part is not gratis, it's libre. We are talking about freedom of operating and freedom of, yes, we are not talking about all the stuff is necessarily free. It takes money and time and people's effort to build and maintain open source. So members should not feel that they can continue to get benefits without putting in money into memberships. It's a fraction, a very small fraction, particularly for SDG goals and I think it's just such an understated thing that most people in open source don't say enough about. So I just thought I'd say it because it's so silly. Everybody thinks open source is free. The free part is freedom not gratis and it happens to also be given away because we want to have freedom. And we also want to share and be able to build on what each others does. But yeah, there is an infrastructure and helping to keep these projects sustainable and available. Especially with what's going on here in Europe with the CRA is definitely one of the interesting challenges that we're facing as an open source community. So I would also tie it back to if you want to be keeping open source available in the same malls that's available today, so get involved in making your voice heard that you do want to keep using open source because if developers are being held liable for things outside of there like people over in Asia or North America are contributing to these projects worldwide which is where we need the solutions. But if suddenly we can't use it in Europe we can't sell it to Europe. It's going to be a really good and hurt open source. So I think we only have four minutes. I don't know if that's right. I think we only have, I think we go until 3.20. So if there's an audience question, we'd love to take it. If not, any final thoughts. But I'll let it percolate a bit in the audience. Oh, thanks Kate. Thanks, thanks for the talk. It was really insightful. So as a young engineer, where do I get started? So it was really nice to listen to all the things that you said and I would really like to contribute but I don't know where to get started because there was a lot of problems but I don't know who has to provide the solution. So I'm going to chime in there. I'll quickly chime in on that even though I just finished moving the mic over there. Get involved with one of the projects here. That's the first step. So one of these is speaking to your heart and things that you care about in your space. Start working with that project and making contributions up to that project and first download the project and let's say you want to run an irrigation system into your garden or something like that. That's meaningful to you. There's pieces out there. There's reference examples out there. Start with those, build on them and then if you get a better idea, contribute it up and there's all those people looking for right now in some of these communities. There's corporations that are hiring people and they'll look for evidence that you can contribute upstream so that helps with your career too. I just want to sort of echo what Kate just said. A couple of different ways. One way is what Kate just mentioned, just get involved, reach out to the people in the open source community that you like, whatever project you like. Another way is to actually think about the solution and start building things. Just on your own time, just think about that's how we all got started, really. So you start building things and you sort of see roadblocks and you say, I don't know how to do this and then reach out to that particular project and say, hey, I'm building this in open source. I want to contribute. How do you do this? That's a very tangible way to get sucked into a community because they'll be like, oh, cool. Here's another person who's crazy enough like us to build things and I find that to be very useful. And there's a third way, which is be an activist for your organization. If you're working in your college or university, if you're working in a business, if you're working in a nonprofit, in a government organization, be an activist, be a voice, say, why don't we do this in open source? Why do we have to invent this? Be that way and I think you can get involved in many different ways. I fully agree with all of that and obviously maybe a good starting point is also the LF report. I don't know if that's come out this morning or if it's about to be pushed on it because you have a comprehensive list of all the LF projects that are contributing to the different SDGs because it's obviously nice to do something with purpose. And if not, come to our website, os-climate.org. There's plenty to be done there. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think first is to identify a project that you will be aligned with your interests. And I would suggest to work on some more this kind of sustainability related projects because that will also put your, if you're looking for a new job or something and the hiring manager will say, oh, this person not only is skillful and their own engineer role, but she got a good heart. She got a very good attitude towards these charitable organizations or the open source project, especially in the sustainable development projects. So that gave a good, another aspect of yourself to the hiring manager. I have a 14-year-old daughter so she asked me what to do with that. Maybe Green Soul Foundation has a hackathon. Maybe you can join that hackathon and showcase the result of that hackathon to your friends and your student or teacher. See, that puts a lot, that says a lot about your own skills and your other aspects that hiring managers are looking for. And also look for a good mentor and there's a lot of mentor in the open source organization and projects. Yeah, do we have time for another question? Yes, we do. Okay, fabulous. I think I saw one. Yes, go ahead. Just speak up. Thanks Matt. Thank you very much for the interesting discussion. There's one question I had because there's a great diverse panelist from different foundations working on a sustainable goal and also wondering how can your efforts help one another in the goals you achieve? That's a very, very good question. I'll start with my own personal view on this and then sort of echo this that it's not just unique to me. The Linux Foundation, I find, is like a house of Lego blocks and you can start to create things with those Lego blocks and Agstak maybe one block and then Zephyr is another block and OS Climate is another block and we can build different things with those blocks and there are 900 projects at the Linux Foundation and so I think the way to do this is more meetups and more questions with each other and asking. Discussions in the hallway. And it's already happening. We are engaged with projects which involve Hyperledger which we are starting to build a project with Kate on soil moisture testing with OS Climate on Ag, field carbon. There's no reason at all why we should be jealous about our project. We're all trying to build great projects but they're in the ecosystem of creating solutions for private sector to build on top of. So there's plenty of opportunity. It's quite stunning actually. You can't do everything, right? So you basically create your borders, your Lego blocks and say, I've got this block here or I've got this technology here but I want a solution there's a solution stack sitting over here. Can we put all this stuff together and make it as a reference so others can build on it? And so like we're doing that type of thing in the Elisa project for safety and then we know of startups and so forth that are doing things for the soil moisture and so they're using this effort in these technologies. So working with some of our members, working with other people in the community who want to make these things all work together it's a lot of fun actually. It really is. So you're interacting with not just in the LF but with other open source projects it's important as well like the Libre Solar project I learned about from an LF energy talk and they were talking about how they did these microgrids in Africa using Zephyr. Apache foundation. We use their code all the time. And so we need to work beyond boundaries to some extent but there's a lot of technologies and just learning about each other and making things visible to everyone. It's all pre-competitive. That's why there's no boundaries, right? Okay, so maybe come ask us at the end of the session. Yeah, thanks everybody. Thank you.