 the recording and I uploaded it and I uploaded it unlisted so that it's available but not broadly visible so um so I pointed this is what I actually do to be able to go to spaces more often I just created a go link for the chat so essentially if you say in the hour ago finish of the link chat or go chat fellowshiping or that kind of thing it will always redirect to the right channel essentially it's like a what was it have you familiar with go links I've heard of them but I don't use them yeah it's essentially like a shortening but where they like service where the user chooses the the key and they can come down in the hour so you can essentially end up with like sort of like an ad hoc taxonomy or like a forks on a mirror something I guess so anyway I'm a huge fan so I I have going for everything and then if you think well I want to go there you just say go there in the hour and it is certainly likely will work so you don't need to remember it's like essentially like I guess a delicious sort of delicious like sort of but it sounds like it's a private delicious kind of it is go links meant to be shared links to yes yeah the nice thing about them go links my experience is communities creating and maintaining the go links that's good they are like they are like they just like you know you see the it's essentially like an MVP for the knowledge graph it like an it's one of the entrances do it interesting so it's bookmarks it is bookmark sharing that's great exactly yes yes and you do this only by typing notes essentially your note if you have your you say hashtag go next to the link and they are what I will process that as the source of the go link huh do you have like an a specific example of what that looks like yes you want a screenshot it's oh yeah awesome I mean I get the general concept I think but I'm yeah I have a new computer here yeah yeah and this is kind of thing where are you seeing the right thing you know I'm seeing an agenda with a slot some slides yes are you recording yes sorry you do not want that in perhaps enough okay sorry no no it's fine it's fine now I that's actually my project it's like a nice okay good and nobody knows what it's so exactly well yeah I will meet as long as you don't have any live you know clear text password yeah no no sorry because I of course they are traveling I have one laptop only so there you go okay so I'm presenting now when yeah I picked the right desktop this time yeah yeah I mean I will try yeah here cool so essentially imagine you are so you want to okay let's see this updated right so here you are like FOTL so FOTL is how I call this group for sure yeah and it this is actually a good example of two things okay nice good so first like FOTL I actually call it finish on the link mostly but I wanted to use it FOTL as well because it's shorter so here I say hashtag pool finish of the link and what we will do is that the algorithm will essentially transclude finish of the link in FOTL and it's just recursive it actually just put another hour inside the hour and it kept doing that you know of course I love a lot of recursive it is like I find it funny so anyway and here it of course you have this is related but it's like Wikipedia if you search for fellowship it talks about the TL fellowship which although it's unrelated to finish of the link I find interesting because it could be the fellowship of the rain you will you will think so here is like potentially something to fix in Wikipedia or not and anyway before we go into any of these so go links so here because I have hashtag go and the document and a document link if in the hour I say go FOTL which is the same as saying an hour outdoor go FOTL or because I use our search and one in this case no because I'm on Google computer but usually what it will also work it just reacts to document so essentially it's very easy to finish the links it says it's here but I can fix it and if if I say because he says chat if I do go FOTL chat we're actually ready to matter most unless this is broke let's see but sorry is this is this a feature within an Agra or yeah okay but this is so this is not a generally this is not general use of go links so go links are in general the idea of a shared database of links which are associated with short links which are user of the user's choice right so is this your implementation of that idea within an Agra okay exactly so you're not making any calls to go links right now you are completely outside of completely this is all running in the Agra server implementation okay go links they were born in a Google around 2000 well in the in the early notes and they were implemented several times open source and otherwise and they are actually quite be in particular companies in particular in Silicon Valley I think of a few I think who were using them and a few more and what I what did I guess the interesting thing of them is when a community which is like you know working on on compatible projects or like you know occasional conversion projects right mantains a database of go links there is an emerging effect so they get you can first you can get a go link if you have a project and it's called like you know fellowship link and we work on a certain environment it's like we essentially can sort of know that go finish of the link will go somewhere interesting cool and the second thing is that they can you can develop a taxonomy in the sense that you know for some of that you can do go Agra and say like okay I wonder where you go okay so this short point sorry this is a bit slow because of catching issues but like okay so I guess this is on work because I have to confirm he redirects to Agra repository right and use but if you say of course I can do this if you say go Agra server directly you know this approach which is like ancillary in the sense and it could go to any arbitrary URL you just you're just naming them if you contribute to the Agra and your tag go links will go or with whatever keyword then you are the Agra will within 30 seconds after updating your staff it will start serving them so here's the question then yes for how this works so if you have a hashtag go with a link after it yes on your page and then I add yes similarly named page to the Agra that is aggregated on that page yeah is it Agra determine which of the two links to go to exactly only be one for yeah yes thank you this is a this is a key question and the answer is you tell me because the Agra decides that so the Agra runs open algorithms and the idea is for a users to actually define the algorithms and of course I can call them but you can also give ranking hints this is like nothing really actually the idea is like the default will be ranked by so users have a rank in the Agra before nodes and within nodes you can say for example like a both this user in this node but otherwise it's sort of like a the default will be like a trust based system where you know if I uprank Niels nodes and Niela ranks your nodes and you have a bowling another person has a bowling and I use I query Agra the user will probably get the the bowling by your closest friend but when it when when there's more than one issue pretty flash all of them you know like the idea is to have like a reddit page with doesn't exist where it says like you know welcome to Agra redirecting to X in two seconds click here to override yeah and of course the override is a ranking signal okay so it's left up to the server to decide what that implementation is exactly that makes sense but generally in a broader community there will be some kind of consensus as to where that thing would probably go right exactly in general like the idea is to I'm lazy but so they used to solve things the fewest times we can do we can make it do it and that will be you know there the ranking for a bowling by default will be the ranking of the sub node in a node and if you want to say no this calling is better than you should probably update the node the sub node in the node and say for example like we don't have a lot of conflicts yes all this another thing which is the the chat integration if you have if you use the chat integration in with the Agra you add a bot and then every time you use a weakening it will link to it so then I can actually click here and jump to the conversation in this point and it will of course down the message in this case yeah yeah this kind of thing anyway so I guess this is tough oh well okay and this is a this is like the closest I have to something graphic Jerry yeah yeah and this is this is the regular mapping from this is something you've built yeah yeah yeah yeah this is like a day in local our apps so this is the node I mean these are all built on force graph which is just like this standard JavaScript library for for graphing and here is a like you know about forward links so leaving from here link pages linking here and like these are like pages pushing here so the pages that are have content which are transcluding remotely yes and every page has one of these yes it seems to me because some pages have more forward links and some have more backlinks and they tend to be of different kinds like that actually says something on the page yeah I guess yeah that kind of thing yeah anyway I think this is like the this is the demo and of course like then I think if you can compose with goalings and so on so it's like for example when I when I check when I want to check if there are bugs in in our in our server I cannot really I can just do our server bugs essentially you have like an emergent like multi-level sort of like it feels a bit like a command line which I like so then I don't have to click around what you only link once and then you can jump to a context and the algorithm is all about trying to jump into mental context so yeah so will you wind up negotiating a namespace with the community yes and then the idea is to have like the local agora the local agora is like right now a closely neat community so we can postpone solving a lot of hard problems and but we and and this is something that happened only a few months ago you know like this will have an active chat channel now so I was like okay great now we have a community the community can decide how we rank the community can we decide how we you know administer the commons because it was weird to like write all this code before there was a community because the code is for the community so I was sort of waiting on that and until then it's just like if we are anarchists right so it's like whatever if you if you create a goal link it may be that you actually take it I actually have to check what happens like I think the first one works it's like I haven't done any ranking yeah but it works anyway so sorry we went to a tangent yeah it's okay um what um what topic would we like to focus on together yes the three of us here so we have the timing timing thing for sure yeah but uh go ahead yeah we have to figure out when the when to move our call to sort of send me permanently that would be great yes I was going to propose I think 11 a.m on Fridays yes 11 a.m pacific but that's late in Zurich I'm fine we have on Fridays it will give me something um yeah I think that's fine it's bad in Europe it's not bad on the east coast because it's just Friday afternoon right right on Friday is that a reasonable hour for you it's you know it's all morning times for me so that's fine it's you know part of the work day but Fridays are usually quieter so yeah yeah that would work for me and we can float that with everybody else and see on the uh on the matter most and see what's up with all the 11 a.m so I have to like ask what do I live in a game on Thursdays because um Fridays I you know now I'm single so I perhaps I will go out more yeah yeah I was gonna say you gotta watch out for Eduardo's date night like social life we can't kill that thank you thank you no I mean this is amazing and I will take yeah I mean you know I love this so but if it conflicts I am very you know yeah perhaps it's better if it doesn't conflict so we've been we've been at 10 a.m on Thursdays um which doesn't work for Dan 11 a.m on Thursdays works for me just fine so oh if you just shift an hour later on the same day that'll work for me cool what do you think Chris uh either of those is fine with me okay so perhaps uh if you're okay with you are equally okay with those then perhaps I will move to 11 a.m pacific and then just ask people to wear a cpt for the next one yep go go um once you figure out what that time is to I and I'm pretty sure I haven't logged into it but Dan gave a bunch of a or um Jerry gave a bunch of us um access to that website so putting up something there with I think there's enough of a mission statement for what it is but being able to have a thing to say here's where you can find us and these are the details and some resources to come join in because there's a list of four or five people I think that I can who are all thinking the same types of things we're thinking yeah but it becomes a quick little if nothing else a business card page to say here's what we're doing here's when we're meeting here's the resources so you can easily join in yeah and then we can go from there um and and let's let's so there's different kinds of degrees or places to be public I'd love to be public on the matter most server a lot because then what we'll do is we'll attract ogm and related project people in here as opposed to random bypass random passersby on the web and then I'd love for us to sort of shake the tree for people we know we'd like to include in the conversation but we should use the website for as much as much we can also easily post up the videos that we're doing etc etc like like our calls and all that and our dot share documents can all be posted openly to the website as well that's easy to um that sounds nice yeah yes I think both cool not the most what's a high leverage topic for the three of us nice yeah um I think um let's see I have one in mind but Chris it looked like you were about to say something no I'm thinking heavy thoughts in terms of what what are what's the Pareto principle like what what yes can we focus on the you know the 20 percent that'll make the most difference I was thinking precisely I was thinking of that or like yeah that direction yes but what's the what's the 20 percent effort that'll lead to the 80 result or back yes I don't exactly yes um I have a I have an idea good like just a as a conversation topic perhaps to go in that direction also try to define what that is which is like thinking of the future together and like saying like say 2025 what could we achieve by 2025 for example or what will we like to see achieved I mean depending you know like to be like given free something like this I sometimes I it helps me I guess a line on the on the longer scale or like greater scale with people so that will be one way we look for for that and you know like essentially um along those lines I've been trying to create a vision video or artifact about the relate project that I've got and how it fits with other sorts of projects and all that about building a shared memory and so forth and I think in my head I've got only a few limited kind of paths to tell the story and and I'm not sure they're the best paths to tell the story which leads me to the other thought that I was going to throw in the conversation here which is I kind of realized yesterday that instead of sitting here wrestling with these questions all by myself and feeling like I've bitten off more than I can chew I should do what I'm good at which is have office hours online and basically create a sequence of calls and invite people in with focused conversations and say okay here's a document that roughly describes where we are in the process and what we think we're kind of aiming toward today we're going to like focus on this thing and try to melt it and then every time we solve something or improve something it'll that document will be available and will be like another brick in the wall yeah terrible analogy but but but trying to trying to sort of build a structure of that way and that feels like a very fellowship of a linky kind of thing to do and part of what I was trying to do and I was going to go consult Pete Kaminsky who is my standing sort of get a city and consultant person friend and I wanted to figure out how to build a series of markdown files that contain nuggets of these ideas in a nice linky way so that I can link to them from my brain but they're also interlinked in a wiki kind of way right online oh yeah that's amazing and then we get wiki links yes and then we can do you want an hour do you want to set up an hour for you so what are the so what are the native file formats under the agora it's like a mark markdown org mode and png jpa and i guess well i haven't had txt but txt is there sort of like yeah so i'm so yes what i want to do is as soon as possible have a working collaboration with people using different tools through something like files on you know on in github and markdown yes with some other goodies and if that means that you're coming in with uh with an agora and i'm coming in with the brain and obsidian and someone else is coming in with mem and someone else is coming in with rome and we can and we can improve files together exactly as i'm having that conversation that is a huge win right up front that's exactly that's exactly there so essentially if you have a bunch of heat repositories or in the future like drive or drawbooks and etc but so start with repositories yep and you you can essentially make a collection out of them and they can be maintained by a single person by a group and that's a detail of the git repository so it's like the end the hour i will try to render it for you essentially nice okay that makes sense and then and then i think i mentioned this before but i may not have because i'm forgetting where i said what but joel visian in hungary has taken obsidian with a plugin xcaladraw and he has done a closer emulation of what the brain does to anything i've ever seen anybody do so i've got so i've got xcaladraw running on my ipad so i can draw uh because xcaladraw xcaladraw is a pretty nice drawing app when you use the web version it's collaborative drawing so you can invite other people to a live drawing session which is very cool honestly i think that's fine yeah and and so what i'm hoping to do um actually let me screen share for a second because i've got a awesome which app am i in yeah what they say there we go uh so hold on let me go to uh hold on let me let me on the screen share for a second and now i'm am i screen sharing i'm not i thought i was so you're not seeing my screen at all all right so let me try that again but let me first go to my drawings why is my that's weird i think i need to reboot oh there we go i was just not looking at it okay good so let me find good got what i wanted now let me come back and screen share boop boop boop entire screen share is that working no it's not working at all this is really interesting it worked earlier yeah so let me see if it works for me let me i don't want to share a window yeah it works on the screen yeah yeah i'm seeing yours are you in a new browser no okay so maybe it's not gonna work anyway let me just talk it through yes or if you share a link uh perhaps you can see uh yeah except the document that I have is a jpeg on my on my drive right here from for the moment so well we share but yeah drive sharing is not that comfortable yeah baby it's too complicated for my brain to hold right yeah i got it um so a couple things a while ago i was trying to describe open global mind and its related networks and we had this idea of what is the view from the top of your mast and we we had this idea that there were a bunch of little organizations in a flotilla kind of floating out together in the same general direction but yeah which was its own little entity right federation uh yeah it's sort of a federation yeah so i had this idea i i'm borrowing the multi-plane camera do you know do you guys know what a multi-plane camera is yeah uh i don't know no i don't know so disney invented to make cartoons look a little better yes okay cellulose they basically created a multi-plane camera where you put the sun back here the hills back here the people here etc you have one of those no i don't i don't have one but just metaphorically metaphorically i'm drawing a multi-plane image where these images are related to each other so one of them is what organizations do i see from the top of my mast and that would be like me and you know ogm in the middle are now related right on sort of next to it but then over here is the metal project and over here is the trove vincent's trove and over here is fellowship of the link and over here great then if you bump up a level in the multi-plane there are individuals and individuals can belong to multiple projects or multiple organizations that's awesome and then if you bump down you can get to kind of a project layer which is like oh these orgs are doing these kinds of projects which are sometimes serving multiple organizations goals that's awesome and then any organization can also have a vision of their future which is a conceptual diagram of where they think they're heading so one of my layers was a conceptual diagram just for ogm with the idea that every organization would then create its own tapestry or mosaic or vision of the future and then a map of the future and then as we dissolve those maps and mosaic is a good word here because i was using the language of a software project being a tile in the mosaic right and if project a described a tile that was really useful for project d that's a triple word score tile and we should figure out a way to fund that tile and to write it in a more generalized way so that it's useful for both projects and everybody else in the world as an open source piece of code yeah completely right and so and so painting the mosaic which is the vision and then several different organizations might say oh we really like that mosaic we're going to jump on board that same mosaic even though we're chewing off a different piece of it ourselves but that's gonna feel like a good vision of our world also completely completely and there's also competing mosaics which are like similar goals but different instantiations different implementations that would be fine too right and and so this multi-plane view is meant to be and it's like really hard to find a tool where you can because i want to be able to go from 2d visualization of a layer which is just a 2d graphics package like Excalibur done deal love it there's also diagrams.net which is quite handy and open source and free so that's kind of cool but i'm now prefering Excalibur but then how do i how do i drop these into the multi-plane view so that i can see the relationships across layers and then how do i instrument again wrong word how do i make a layer of the output of code so that if somebody has a database of organizations and their relationships to each other that spit out a map like you just showed us yeah from the anagra right then that could be a layer in here right yes so that's danger that automates that automates the creation of some of these layers then you can start sort of navigating around and saying okay good this project can this task belongs to this project belongs to these three organizations these are the five people working on them and then we're off to the races makes sense makes sense so the way the the i think the simplest way to do that if we do it with open source will be you know one you can render uh these uh a plane so for example like uh and that will be a diagram right it could be a diagram as of some organization over a thing uh to relate different planes essentially you can imagine like having a diagram here and then i'm here and uh some text here for example and of recording these are all like essentially artifacts you know they they can be at different levels and you know a diagram can be about a document right or be in a document so in general that that relationship can be model you know of course it's a graph and the the simplest thing i think will be to if you have a site that can render the each plane for some of the diagram can render the text or like the margarine can render the uh you know the the video recording you just embed them so essentially uh what the agoradosi the agoradosi is try to just embed you you get an i-frame like with bia you know which we saw so as long as all the properties or all the properties all the commons all the parts of the common i should say are are finding being embedded and the tools that are in the commons tend to be whereas the tools which are cooperated tend not to be then the integration cost is very very small and of course it's shallow integration in the sense that you embed something you're making bia a theory it's not like you can interact between the frame embedding and the other but you can if there's a for the for the corporation so it's a good model for cooperation and the fact that to embed you need a link we are the future for the link exactly if we do it at the very least we have a graph this this multiplane is like links in an order in a stack yes and once you have that of course you can do deeper integration but that core model of a stack or like a graph of links is it does 80 percent of the lifting yes and that's the 2080 it is actually it's like i think a 2080 approach for a what approach that's 20 at 2080 yeah sorry 80 20 is usually the oh interesting i say i started with tending because that's the effort i have to make i know it's funny so i'm like yeah 2080 what yes i'm christis this makes sense to you yes yeah i would frame it more in a a standards base yes framing so that you can have the smallest pieces loosely joined so that anybody can pick up i want to play with these three building blocks but when i pick those blocks up i know exactly what they'll do yeah whether it's a text block or a markdown block or maybe an html block and with those we can do other things and each client can then come to you know you define as little as you possibly can as a standard or small sets of standards or progressive standards so that each client can then pick up as many blocks as they possibly can um so that regardless of how you come at it you know a tool like xcalidraw ideally should be usable by 20 of these note-taking apps but the tough part is if you're doing it a lot of um you know a lot of these small little apps are trying to take they may only be building for something let's say like uh you know obsidian right and what obsidian's base is may be dramatically different than what roam research's base is in terms of what you can interact with right so as a developer you're then constrained to only be able to build for one or the other yes or you've got to do four times more work as that person to be able to make it work for both but then once you go into 10 different companies how do you have the time effort and engineering expertise yes it's a problem right now with you know apple iphone's and you know android yeah systems are so dramatically different yeah that i can't very easily you know so i have to choose which one am i going to spend my time doing and it's better if the companies at the top are competing on something besides you know siloing all your data well one of the interesting things about browsery apps is that because the browsers then run everywhere you get away from the uniqueness of the platforms that's at least an interesting work around um one of the dilemmas or dangers of the scenario you just painted chris is you wind up with the least common denominator functionality because you have to sort of find what's what's what's the subset that that is that functions everywhere um but i'm trying to figure out one of the cool things that tim burnersley did that made the worldwide web work was he looked over at sgml and said that's way too fucking complicated let's simplify it and instead of let's simplify it he also said let's make it graceful so that it breaks gracefully so that uh with sgml you submit a document for compiling with an sgml compiler which then says oops you have mistakes and uh one mistake in an sgml file and it didn't compile that's an unforgiving model with html if any of the little piece parts that i just got requested to be sent to your browser doesn't show up you get a little broken image icon and the browser goes on and says the browser shrugs and says hey this thing didn't render good luck fixing it or whatever that hack that hack i'm talking about that kind of graceful degradation is is something i'd love to figure out for the architectures that we're talking about so how do we get how do we get maximum replication of capacity and power how do we get progressive disclosure of hey if you tried looking at this data with this other tool it would do much more stuff you you it would sing and dance not just like hop around on screen and and and on from there and then we talked last time about activity pub and the fediverse and stuff like that and i think there's some tools in there that we might be able to use i don't know i don't really understand i couldn't explain activity pub to anybody that there are the i think that bigger issue with activity pub as it stands now is it's like some of those earlier things it's much more complicated than it ever needs to be oh okay and so instead of starting with i and and i can even frame it maybe from an an indie web perspective which takes a plurality first whatever we're building you should be able to write it in whatever language you want and it shouldn't be specific to a language but it should work everywhere as much as possible right when they designed and built activity pub they over designed it and over specified it and made it incredibly hard so there's you know there's maybe 10 or 20 people in the world who are actively writing and doing something with it and in in large part they're doing well because they've been doing it for a long time and they know what all the the foibles and problems are whereas yeah if you want to come at it so i've i've got a friend um erin perecki who's a i know him yeah security expert yeah he has his own website and he bootstrapped onto the back of it the ability to interact as if it were an activity pub setup yep but the amount of work and effort that it took him to do that was just insanely silly damn okay um great to know and it so it's it's there and it's lovely but there's a reason why right now mastodon is running the entire show because even though there's a spec called activity pub if you don't if you don't interoperate with how mastodon views that world you don't exist really really interesting so everybody is kind of bending towards mastodon's flavor of activity pub and how it's implemented because if you don't work with that you may as well not exist or you're you know second or third tier player go ahead fluncie yeah no this is very interesting i i guess two two things i wanted to point out here perhaps the facilities one i guess it is the question i'll do that second the first one is like with mastodon in the de facto standard there's also playroma there's other like ones which are like relatively high compatibility can understand it but uh you know like a fresh call like different code bases and i'm probably more manageable regardless of that there's serial so my default architecture here will be to actually use one of those it's not having to reimplement the standard actually run an instant which is what we do for cercob and it doesn't take that long or it's not that complex and then bridge so i'm lazy like i said so it's like you know if there is an implementation for any standard and we can run it and then bridge to it that's my season means sort of solution i won't call it i won't implement and there is some risk to it because of course you get tied to that particular implementation but you get like very high compatibility you can run the experiment very quickly so that will be my my default uh proposal you know if we can if we can produce a field uh then we can post it to to mastodon for example very easily very easily like you know and of course we can consume from mastodon very easily so essentially we have converter and at that point it's like perhaps the complexity activity pub can be seen as a historical detail right and and we can just essentially design on top of it second thing is feeds in general it seems like you know i keep thinking of streams just strings so and of course like activity pub is a format for like interchanging interoping streams uh in particular you know with a particular scheme and a particular like you know like the social aspect and so on limits but right but essentially uh they are just strings and i i give back to feeds like a feed seems like a simple stream before you add all the social uh so don't don't feeds break transclusive transcludability so in which way interesting well i'm and here i'm not sure about my terminology but one of the one of the cool things that uh jolt showed me in his brain hack was that he could change text in a drawing in Excalibur and it would change the link the backlink word in his markdown file in obsidian you know like and i was like holy crap that's great that's exactly what you want you want you want the the objects as they're renamed and repurposed and ended to be connected back and forth and that's not a stream that because an activity stream basically loses the ability to go backward upstream you can't swim upstream in stream protocols at least oh not that i know of right but transclusion means there's a connection between these things and they will then be updated together and well i would have to to complexify that there's also uh github's fork and pull protocol which is a different way of creating a longer connection over time that says i'm going to go break off and fork my own version of it and play with it play with it play with it but then i'm going to make an improvement and suggest that back to the main stream and that's how we incorporate change back upstream right yes and that's interesting and i don't understand technically or practically for a community of people trying to think together which of these things fits where and i and to me that's one of the puzzles to solve in the process of developing this platform we'd like to use yeah so my understanding from this and i i i i i would like to discuss this more if you can understand more the problem that you use so as it was linked or not perhaps the implementation or you know this is callidro um like mvp and answers in general but i will say that that sounds related to the aversioning problem so if i understand correctly as in what are you exactly transcluding needs you uh require you to define identity to some extent so you need to define the resource you are transcluding is the feed is it like a particular post with i think within the feed or is it potentially something like the newest item which identifies with an entity in the field and i think the latter is probably what we want well yeah essentially it allows for updates right and well also if you have just a if you treat every nugget as a page with versions with version control your default setting can be the most recent version of everything you reach for exactly but then you can make it really really easy to scroll back through time yes exactly so this is essentially what we are i think we're trying to do for the water essentially so yeah repository so essentially the stream uh is of course like a timeline and then you can essentially it's like we are projecting and saying like okay this means and the versioning is like a meaning right there it's like uh which is perhaps i don't know if rcs supports is uh natively but i guess you can implement it as simply as r i say rss rss or atom plus metadata in the items so yes i actually have to go in seven minutes because um someone i dropped what i call a ninja meeting so i need a award meaning after this okay but thank you so much that's all right we can wrap at the top of the hour that the uh that'll be all right about the least common denominator just close yeah i love that yes completely it's like there is but it's seen as a problem often but i think it has potential sort of like the commons because the commons is like has this press you know i i mean this is a i guess just a fast link but it's like has this press as like all the tragedy of the commons but what about like the everything that is not the tragedy the commons right so it is common denominator scenario has a lot going for it i mean when it comes to resiliency and yeah i completely agree and for me it's like this is why starting with plain text essentially it's crucial have you seen quarry doctor's take down of the tragedy of the commons no i have not of course quarry doctor has a brilliant thread or essay on just about everything the question is i have my question is which year are you talking about which year he's done a couple i think over yeah exactly exactly uh it seems like there's probably one that goes back to like 2003 maybe you know yeah how do you do you know quarry yes like yes you admit him yes oh nice i i only do it via twitter and so on but he's so nice right he's a lovely guy i have no understanding how he does as much as he does and and he shares his his mo pretty openly he taught he tells people what he does yeah how he does it i mean a lot of what he's doing is he spends time a couple of hours every day consuming a half a dozen things writing notes about them and saving them in a spot that he can then reuse them later on so he yep a great deal of of it is and right having watched him do it for a while his system is more in and a lot of it he keeps in wordpress he essentially has a commonplace book in wordpress that he can delve into and pull out details of things he's written ages before that makes sense yeah that's amazing yeah i'm i'm so happy you say i have didn't know that and of course i saw the wordpress and so on but like uh that's inspiring yes he he has two things which i i know if you know which are huge influential for me because like it's adversarial interoperability and the repository of missing devices he has in the one for eff repository or no catalog catalog of missing devices he wrote he wrote about this uh non-existing catalog but actually it exists because he wrote it uh all with uh with missing devices that we should have and uh yes and that's essentially the agora in my in my yeah in my uh world you yeah yeah oh yes but of course a lot of things are in my uh work minds you know i love that um yes awesome devices i didn't know about that one that's great yeah catalog of missing devices it's in the you know it's so nice um awesome yeah so i have to go for the next one yes missing devices for eff like i thought he's he's buying um yeah okay so um let's get everybody over to the matter most and see if that'll work as a conversation platform uh let's move the call one hour later on thursdays to 11 a.m pacific that should work and see you all next week yes i'm very excited thank you thank you for this sweet how am i gonna say yeah thank you see your grace thank you take care