 What's up everybody and welcome back to for the minions a weekly podcast podcast whatever you want to call it all about third-person mobas coming up You know very very soon This week. We don't have a whole lot of news We've got some pretty big stuff for overprime some stuff for ethereal nothing for fault nothing for predecessor But we're also going to talk about the poll this week Which I asked you guys how many of these games you you guys think will survive for at least three years The results were about one part of what I thought there would be and then the discussion topic It's going to kind of tie into the polls. How long do we think that they can last like? Like how long and how many of them can can last as a sustainable game, but um and as always If you want to guest host on the show just let me know and I'll add you to the list But I am your host the man who's joining me as always as my friend and co-host jelly knees. How you doing jelly? I am fantastic man. He's happy to be back after my hiatus last week She can't say always now because I wasn't here last week. So now it's all but one time Yeah, yeah, but with us this week. We've got Odo Odo. Welcome. How are you doing today? Oh, it's quite significantly better after the last few days. I've been having so Oh Yeah, I got out of I'm assuming it was COVID everything is so backed up. I don't get a test till the 13th So tomorrow Which will technically be today by the time they're watching this I think One of them then it's gonna be at some point and then after that I find out if I do have COVID And if I do I got really lucky because it was really mild case if I don't That just sucked it up sooner. Just took a hot shower quicker And as jelly was alluding to how'd you get into how'd you get in the Paragon and like who was your favorite hero and all that? Well, is anybody that's Seeing me talk about any of the heroes. I'm a sparrow main. I've been a sparrow main since day one Mainly because I was a transfer from League of Legends. I played a little bit over there I Was playing destiny 2 at the time and then one of my one of my fire team members like hey, I found this really cool game They showed me the trailer Couple like a month or so later. I bought into the early like the early beta the early access I can't remember which Back when there wasn't specific minions everything was just a white Yeah, I kind of I kind of really fell in love with like how gritty it looked to me because I was on PlayStation Dilla filthy controller user. So I'm very unique in that And don't worry. I'd still smack everybody They'd usually smack me harder though Yeah, so I went through I Had an insane amount of time on sparrow before Any of the mastery systems or something like that came out. So After that I was like cool. I have a reason to go play other heroes Very quickly found out I did not like Twin Blast. He Just didn't fit my play style Murdock was pretty fun but beyond that Yeah, not really much. I just kind of fell in love with the game it kept going I don't know if you were a sparrow main you were among the most used and abused of players in that game because She was either broken or useless more often the latter Yeah, well when you just three when you were running down lane and I always played in the wrong lane because 3d MOBA did know any better The two outer lanes look the same. So I always went the off lane So I either had one two or three people in the lane trying to push against me and I'm going Okay Just in fun and then especially because you have no escape. Yeah And it was it was kind of unique is during one game. I'm pushing down left lane. I See three of them coming down lane. They look at me turn right into the jungle. They're like, yeah No, I'm not dealing with this just all all three of them died There you go. Just because they turned and tried to run away. That's the perks of sparrows sometimes too, though I've forgotten about how over the the prime orb guardian used to just be a giant pink I love that he had placeholder written across this chest Oh, that was fantastic. Yeah, those were the days I Was sparrows sparrows changed a lot since then too I mean like her ultimate wasn't always the the triple arrows. Was it it was wasn't it something different at first as far as I Can remember it's always been the triple arrows I know a lot of stuff changed though But surprise Weird they were changing constantly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah was their passives. That's what it was. Yeah I don't really remember her passives cuz like I Wasn't super into knowing the kids. I was like, oh arrow chick spell chick Destroy or get just decimated because I didn't know about the passives till after they were gone So I was just out there going You know who had the most confusing passive was thing now thing Look after man his passive was offensive abilities buffed his defensive abilities defensive abilities buffed his offensive abilities But they never really explained what they considered to be defensive and offensive and they never really explained how much Like Defensive to begin with like a shield shield, but it's like do they count hamstring as an offensive or a defensive ability exactly And it was the most arbitrary thing on the planet, right? Like it felt like it changed game to game where you're like, I'm pretty sure I use the same combo and Reaping dash like you can use that as an escape or an engage. Do you count that as offensive or defensive? Give us a little more information. They eventually just did away with that cuz it confused the shit out of everybody, but I'm so happy I didn't know about that back in the day. I lost my mind. I Remember trying to figure that shit out Anyway, let's let's move on to the news and updates. Let's start off with over problems They had a lot of big stuff going on probably the biggest news for over prime is their cinematic trailer went up There's well their cinema trailer went up. We didn't even talk about that yet Let's talk about their cinematic trailer. Just in general because we didn't talk about that last week That came up in between the two episodes. What'd you guys think about the cinematic trailer? Oh, no, I'll let you go. Oh I loved it Like it from the beginning when they had Revan, I don't know his name and over by what Revan it showed up. I was like, okay So you have the bounty hunter. What's going on? And then you see Sevrog walking up to a tree. It's like Okay Hey, you shoot said I'm like, yeah, you kind of expected that the count is out. Why I'm just smacks it Wait bad mittens that shit away And I was like, it's I loved everything about it. I think the voice lines are great It looks phenomenal. I Loved it. There's nothing I have a negative thing to say about it. If I can English today It's hard to English sometimes jelly. What'd you think about the trailer? I thought it was great. Honestly, I loved being able to see Revan it and Severog in there I loved the like hidden lore of like Severog had was on a mission to destroy some it seemed like Idrisill equivalent of like the tree of life for it, right? Was really cool to see that aesthetic for Severog being that he touches things and they die and they wither away super cool idea Overall was brilliant. I thought what about you man goose? What'd you think about Severog having a face because they've had a face on him for a while now and he did not have a face in Paragon Well, I've seen I've seen it go both ways. Some people love it Some people were like, well, why the fuck do you have a face now? I personally like the what did I say? I said it's I said it came out like a Harry Potter novel. I was like, I love Severog in the mystery of the hollow hood I Prefer no face I Think I would prefer no face between the two but I it's like 50.1% preference more than anything, right? It's just like, yeah, I kind of prefer that But I don't really have a preference either way either My biggest but biggest critique and they asked them they have their content creator channel They asked all the content creators what we thought of the trailer and I was like, I think it's great I said, I think you guys picked them very high impact very visually pleasing Heroes specifically for the trailer to draw people in they're none of our heroes. I really play all that much I didn't didn't play Rev didn't didn't play counters didn't play Sav all that much But um, it's still I think it was a great choice of heroes But the one critique I gave them is how you're gonna have a big-ass young drassel tree and not have the Fay in there Right. Yeah Which they thought that was funny and it was of course a joke They don't have to have the Fay in there just cuz there's a tree, but I would have liked to see her I think the overall quality of the trailer was really good some of the animations some of the animation work looked a little janky But I mean over like who the fuck am I like I definitely could not have done any better For the most part it felt like the start and stops of animations were the worst part Once they were in motion You didn't really notice it as much but those those moments the one that like I can think of clearly thinking about it Is the shot where it's revenant standing over the in front of the opening of like a jungle path or something Yeah, and he stops and either like hardcore clunk, and it was like oh, okay. That was weird Oh, do you're about say something? Yeah, I think I think it was kind of like a good choice to keep the Fay out of it specifically because If they had at it or they would have had to kind of take like a different short story run with it Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I mean that was I think I definitely don't know I I Would honestly like to see it like a second part to it where the fate does show up at some point during it I think that would be cool have like a Continuating trailer where they're all one piece and it turns into a movie like at the end when they're all released They are supposed to do their Netflix series, but that's supposed to be more of a graphic novel. I think then Then an actual animated thing but with that though Severog could touch the Yajasil tree right and it slowly withers out And the Faye is inside the tree that that could be their lore of how the Faye comes into existence It just blasts him in his face with Harvest Nettles Nature Over Prime hit me up. I'll happily do the face voice lines for you just saying Just a male voice on the Faye just nature A lot of people called attention to the fact to like it's like a fork in the road You got to choose which way you go amidst like all these games Making choice motherfuckers I don't think that was their intent, but it's kind of a funny thing to point out and then along with the trailer It got uploaded by IGN Which is you know a huge? Content creation thing for gaming and um, yeah The last time I checked that had like 60,000 views or something like that That's hard to tell what it's up at too now, but yeah, that's a big deal for them That is a huge deal that gives them so much exposure and that just kind of came out of left field for me But I mean I guess I should have expected it with the way they're they've been acquired by netmarble and have all this funding and everything so Really cool stuff there. It's huge that they Chose to go on such a large platform right you even being unreleased or which makes me feel like the release is coming very quickly I know we have the closed beta test on the 22nd But after that I basically I'm thinking if that goes well, they're gonna hit the ground running very shortly thereafter Because doing it on IGN that's a pretty big statement to get out there and you and I talked about it man goose It also is a big Thing for all of the Paragon successors that they're getting in front of the gaming community at large first Instead of just the Paragon community It could make a differentiation in which game builds in the in the space because of that, right? because now anyone that didn't know about Paragon or the or the Paragon successor projects now is going to equate pred and fault to overprime if that was their first right Their first entry into that space. I think there might be a little bit of backlash when it first comes out Because a lot of people like if you look through the comments There's a lot of people that just straight up didn't know that Paragon was being remade at all if they come into overprime thinking it's just gonna be like Paragon 2.0 is I'm a hundred percent. It is not gonna be Paragon 2.0 They're gonna be very I think they're gonna be angry and there's gonna be a lot of backlash there, but again The Paragon community as a whole is not what they should be shooting for they should be shooting for everybody. I Kind of wish they would have had some gameplay in that. I'm sure they'll probably also release a gameplay trailer Hopefully on IGN as well But that was one a lot of the comments were like is this over what like people didn't know what it was or what it was supposed to be like or anything I Don't know I kind of like that they left it up to people like it's a mystery like people If they're intrigued by that trailer they can look more into the game and then find out, you know, I mean I Think with no defined release date in sight It's better to leave it vague and like you said for the people that really care They'll go find it and then in the future they can release something else a gameplay trailer or another cinematic Tide with a gameplay trailer that then has an a Hardcore name drop a hardcore release date if they're really finalized This is when you can play this game kind of video, right? Oh, no. What do you think? I? Think it's gonna be good for them to get on there Beyond that I really don't have much to say It's the first one to get any kind of massive response like that from what I understand And I think you are right a lot of people are gonna start comparing the rest of them to overprime I also kind of think a little bit a little bit off topic here for a second But I kind of feel like overprime could have been like one of the stages of Paragon if it had survived with as much as they changed the map and everything Maybe not all the hero kids, but the map design I could see something that would have been epic What a tried so I'm kind of curious not only that but having multiple maps Like we don't know if they're gonna have multiple maps in the in the closed beta But you know in previous iterations of over prime they've had multiple maps You could choose to play either monolith or legacy or their three lane a ram app That's something people asked for from Paragon for for fucking forever for as long as there was both maps that existed So it does seem like a feel like a continuation of Paragon in that way in that they're giving us what we had asked for with Paragon If indeed they have those maps, which I think eventually they will if not release I don't think maybe that they will have Pure legacy and pure monolith anymore because their map is kind of that cross in between But for all we know they could they still could or they could be coming out with their own versions of those maps that are altered in different ways Even if they just had the map that we've seen them play on and the a ram app that would be a step forward Yeah, and I just looked it up the IGN videos up to 70,000 views Wow That's a lot of people getting eyes on and their video got 25,000 And I while there is certainly some overlap there that it's not the full 25,000. That's for sure, right Yeah, that's a lot of eyes on Oh, they also had another social media contest like if you share the the trailer It's just random chance this time you could 10 random people can win a t-shirt which somebody posted in their discord now IGN's No, I'd see him can win an overpump t-shirt because they shared the trailer The thought that IGN only shared the trailer because they wanted a chance to win a t-shirt had me laughing so freaking hard They had me giggling like all day But yeah, you know I didn't that IGN deserves all 10 give it to him. Just give them all 10 call the day But this time instead of just having YouTube shorts. It's just any social media. You share their Their thing on any social media at him and then post it in their discord You can you have a chance at winning a sweet Overprime t-shirt which you can see Ranger. I believe wearing in their New Year's thing So and the prime's doing work. They are really they're going at it. They're getting the right moves. They're doing the right things It's really it's really cool to see Just like if I take a step back and just from a purely paragon fan standpoint It's really cool to see one of these projects get that level of recognition Yeah And then let's see they posted in their work in progress this phase skin, which is we talked about it before the show It's pretty much just the the initial release face skin, but she's got a tail some taller ears a Siamese cat backpack Pretty cool Yeah from the concept art it looks the tail and ears look really high quality in comparison to the rest of it Which is kind of strange, but You gotta reach for a certain demographic What demographic is that exactly? Demographic is that man goose and I are definitely not a part of that demographic We wouldn't know Well, in a theory it'll definitely doesn't fit in that demographic It's a furry ass skin I Want to see I want to see how much her tail moves like hmm how well her tail is animated throughout the skin That would be cool to see just give the tail that I Happen to know about something that both of you will crack up about they actually made tails That like move and they work like based off your body heat What what I'm sorry. There's make there is mechanical tails that work off based on your body heat. Oh We were joking about being furries, but goddamn Oda I Know there's one way to take your tip and I know that's a way you can attach tail to your body Probably the way it works. I don't know That is plenty any of you at home can do your own research Make sure to send one to each jelly We're getting both on camera wearing them the first fan mail we receive man goose is gonna be mechanical furry Jesus can't wait. Oh Let's end this over prime stuff with a bit of a wholesome note And their developers diary ranger put a post I forget exactly what it said But he said he had to go talk to the chief executive today And they're like he was nervous, but he thinks it went really well I just thought that was just so endearing Knowing that they started out as such a small team of fans dedicated to making like a paragon project And now he's talking to the chief executive of net marble like holy fuck like that's gotta be Yeah, it's terrifying That is such a just a massive shift Mm-hmm. Yeah, I just a huge feather and ranger's cap to like right being able to say that he did that as well It's huge. That's awesome I'm glad he shared that too. That's just that humanizes ranger quite a bit. Hmm. I mean, it's Like a post like that. I'm sure he was just posting just to be posting But when you read through something like that it humanizes him while also showing off You know, how far they've come and the backing that they have so it's like a dual purpose sort of thing I'm very cool post very cool post. Yeah, absolutely So let's move on from over prime Let's get into a theory or not a lot coming out of a theory of this week, but we did get Talos's theme Jelly, I know you hard Talos's theme. I'm sure you're the one the post of the damn thing. I am Oh, no, did you hear Talos's theme? Oh Yes, I did why? It wasn't quite what I expected for him it it was In a odd sense it was a lot calmer than I expected from the little bit that I know about his Lord's a lot It's a lot calmer But it's definitely driven. He's not just like it doesn't sound like he's someone just to lay around like you could tell like Especially in the beginning it sounds like he's either chasing something Which would make more sense than him being chased But yeah, it sounds like he's with the what the beats that they're going in it sounds like he's chasing after something So I think it's I think it's pretty good. I like it. Yeah, that's pretty cool That that'd be the only critique I have for it as I wish it would ramp up a little faster But I don't know how there's they're going to be used in games I don't know how I want them to ramp up or down or whatever But um, yeah, I think it gets better and better as it goes along Yeah, really cool. Well, all these themes are really cool. I just My idea though out of all of this is I came up with this when we were talking about sex Is that he needs he needs to have I wear my sunglasses at night I want 80s themes for all of them that I want tell us is to be shout Yes, perfect, I did see you going through this with people in the community discord the other day and people were going through like Skyrim Dovahkiin shouts right the whole nine-yard. I was like, geez people. I got it. Oh Yeah, I'm licensing some 80s pop music. That's all I'm saying. Here we go I love Talos's theme. It's not my favorite But I do love it because I think and one of the comments kind of echoed my kind of feeling behind it as well Is it felt like you were watch like if you're watching a movie, right? It's Talos going from like different backdrops like tracking through something tracking down a creature hunting down a creature Right, and I think that that aspect is really cool like that that That you can like if you visualize the different places in the different realms in ethereal that he can be Crossing these different backdrops finding tracks finding these things and I think that was the cool aesthetic That I saw someone posting about in the comments for it. Oh, right on that's neat and then um, we just also want to remind you guys that the open weekend is the 21st through the 23rd and I know it said it a million times, but people still ask all the time if you want to play just go to their Did I didn't even have to go during the the play test just go to the website make an account They can play right okay. Can they make an account right now? They cannot right now because it's still being worked on, but they should be able to shortly Okay, so yeah, just on the 21st go create an account on undying games calm and you can play the game like people can be asking but It is that simple as that There are no keys this time. There's no the nothing special make an account play the game. That's all it is Yeah, and uh, okay, let's move on to fault. We got no updates for fault they haven't released anything for a little bit which uh I kind of understand they've been they've been hard at work on fault. Oh, no, you play fault quite a bit What's your feelings on the current state of fault? It's definitely been a lot better since the optimization patch a few weeks ago Other than that, I don't know my skills. I could jenga tower. It just falls flat and just dies to points So it's I'm not the right person to be asking If I step away from the game for more than a day or two I go from like Because I checked the elo for shits and giggles. I'll go from like eleven hundred to like eight So I'm not I'm not the main thing that is There's the ledges This is once that gets fixed and you'd stop randomly stopping on an in hip or a tower ledge Mindercraft, but it's aggravating I did have a Decker game where There was somebody running away and I threw the perfect Decker ball to catch them as they were as they were going from like There's like one of those Kobe shots, you know it exploded on the rim of the tower Behind them and didn't kill them. I'm like Nothing more tilting than throwing a perfect Decker bomb and having it not work. Yeah It's seen it hit an invisible wall and explode I think fault said a it's in a really good place right now a game wise Like yeah, there's still bugs here and there, but there's always going to be bugs I think it's in a better place now than it has been in In for frickin ever like the gameplay is pretty smooth. They have a good gameplay loop. Everything's fairly balanced I've been enjoying fault Like I was saying on the windows partner panel like when I cue by myself I'm matched appropriately against skill level, which is pretty bad, but like I'm not great But when like but most of the time like I'll play with subscribers And it's like we'll have people that are just like way down here And then we'll have people that are way above me and you never know what you're going to get matched up against So those games aren't as fun, but I think if you solo queue a lot, you'll probably have a lot more fun with fault the the big problem though right now I think is Ten minutes into every game somebody's trying to surrender It doesn't matter how well you're doing or help or how poorly you're doing Like everybody just constantly it's like they've never played a MOBA before and they don't realize that there's comeback mechanics and that You know sometimes there are games where it's definitely you're going to lose like You could tell that you're just you're just getting sunk But like if you're only down a few kills and like yeah, maybe they got your tower first, but Like that's not You're definitely going to lose like I don't know. I don't know the community that The game is in a great state. They're the players. I don't think are there are some really positive helpful players out there, but I think You don't remember those as much as the guy that flamed you Constantly or Yeah, this is something I've been seeing. Why don't you go learn that hero in AI mode? It is like I knew that was going to be coming as soon as I added an AI mode It's like you can't fucking learn how to PVP in AI mode like AI mode is great for learning mana costs and testing things out and getting a general feel for the for the hero, but You can go as hard as those bots are they are just as dumb at the same time So it's not an effective way to train by any means I can go 30 and 0 with Kalari in AI mode Definitely not going to do that It gives real people See now, I'm just going to go into games and whenever there's a Murdoch on my team I'm gonna flame him for being worse than the AI Murdoch Yeah, it's because everybody's worse than the AI Murdoch holy shit He um, I Was coming up with AI Murdoch I think I was playing several because I've been trying to learn how to jungle clear well with him So that's another great thing for AI mode like learning how your jungle clear and rotate like mm-hmm rotations like that But like I came up on him. He spun and pushed me, but his he never like it was like a blink It was like he never yeah, he never really turned you barely saw him just instant. Yeah, it was insane It's every snipe AI Murdoch for the win, man I Think that's about all I had for fault unless you guys anything you wanted to say about fault I think I think that's it. Yeah, please don't we get into the discussion topic, but yeah Predecessor nothing again nothing for predecessor. That's not that's not unusual. I Wonder if they'll be pressured by all the information that's been coming out of over prime to start Being a little more transparent with the community again. I think they have to be I think they have to be feeling the fire a little bit from overprime, especially with the hard push that they've been making recently Right that there's because like I said is the community the community of the gaming community at large now He's going to recognize overprime as the figure and everybody else is following in their shadow Right whereas before it was kind of predecessor being that an overprime and fault kind of in their shadow Right and overprime flipped that script real fast I would just say if they if they do start make this stuff I'd be a bunch stuff out there I would be really careful and I wouldn't Try to go too fast to get something out there just because someone else is Taking like a step forward farther than everyone else. I'd be very careful with it because We definitely don't need calculated. We don't need a repeat of SMS saying here's a picture Where is it uh-huh six months later. Here's another one. Yeah I feel like there's a lot of examples to be given about SMS in this instance, but Yeah, they're gonna have to do something to step up People are people still remember who they are, but it's gonna it's not gonna be long till everybody Just knows overprime and that's it if predecessor doesn't step up and do something, you know, yep, absolutely Precise is definitely despite In your poll that we see every week right predecessors numbers are consistently up there But you've got a Paragon community that's been knowing about these projects for years, right? So that's a slightly skewed number if you were able to pull that IGN community Overprime is gonna be basically the only thing that they know right which is not a good sign for either fault or predecessor But again, that's a whole as part of the discussion topic we can get into that Good discussion this week I think Oh Let's move on to the poll and I changed up the poll this time What I asked was how many of these games do you think will be able to survive and be sustainable for at least? three years and the options were one two three four and zero so 30% of you guys thought that only one of them will survive 53% thought that two would survive 7% thought three one percent thought four and 9% thought I felt there was gonna be zero which I Thought it was interesting that more people think that none of them will survive Then think that four of them will survive and I think that's absolutely on the money I think it's all or nothing really but um Also think I wasn't surprised by by these numbered by 53% being But by two of the games being 53% and I think we all know that it's This one in a theory. It's like yep I think over prime ethereal. I think predecessor in ethereal. I think fault in ethereal I think the theory was usually that second one Yeah, and I Think that's for good reason there. There's no realistic world where two of these Paragon successors can survive into Eternity right that this just not gonna happen one will beat out the others right over over however long it takes Potentially but at the end of the day, it's it's very very unlikely that two of them thrive and I think we're seeing that Partly with fault in that as these other two are ramping up fault is slowly dying down Right and that's even after the free weekend even after the optimization patch even after patch 14 Their numbers went up for a second and then immediately you have been climbing back down to where they were. Yeah, I Think that's from a disagree slightly I think it is possible for two of them to succeed mainly because I Don't think overprimes gonna rely on the NA region too much. I think even if it flops over here There's so many players over in Asia and the rest of the world that Even if it flops here over there, it could be a number one game and we'd never know about it. Yeah So I think the overprime is a very overprime Yeah, the Easter market for overprime could be massive So you think there could be a Western Paragon and Eastern Paragon and then a theory. Oh Yeah, I think that's a possibility Yeah, I mean I could see that I could see that I Still think in the end like I'm like I was talking about with Windu last last week The the ones that are relying on the Paragon community like you can only rely on the community so much But you do need to rely on them like Everybody knows when you make like a YouTube channel or something the more people you have the easier It is to grow the more subscribers you have the easier it is to grow because YouTube just shows that many more people It's the same way with these games like they start with this base community Which is the para refugees and the more of those para refugees they have the easier It's going to be for them to grow and reach out to other people from other games, but There's only so much of that community and You can't share it around and people are we've seen it Over and over again people are very diehard for whichever game they think is going to be the best So whoever gets that biggest share of the Paragon community is going to have a much easier time When they grow and I think as they grow they're just going to Cancel out the other two. I think mm-hmm fault. I don't think fault predecessor and overprime I don't think they can coexist unless it's something like Oda said where Overprime just takes over the eastern market and one of the in the one of the other two takes over the western market I think Paragon players are gonna be like a solid base that any of these games have to catch I won't maybe not have to capture But if they can get a majority of them the Paragon players are a solid base to start Yeah, yeah, absolutely and I think the interesting thing here is I And not to be cynical or skeptical of fault in SMS I don't know how fault in SMS survive the next year Because if predecessor and overprime come out They're already on their last legs and it literally could be the thing that just puts them out and They have to really step it up In terms of a community player base game the whole line yards So I think even stand a chance at surviving either of those two either of those two games releasing Right. Well, let's sort into the discussion topic then because we've already kind of let it let into it Yeah, I think a lot of what you see like if you check out the comments on that IGN post for Overprime you see so many comments were like this and predecessor are gonna lead the way this and predecessor This and predecessor or just overprime or somebody would be like I don't really care about this I just care about predecessor. The only time you see fault mentioned in those comments is when people are shitting on them Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Like that is a terrible sign. Yeah, that can't fly like I believe in fault I think I think fault is a great game right now But you got to be realistic. You got to look at stuff like this and understand that While the game may in a be in a good place the company is on a cliff right now And they're about to be pushed off by overprime and Fred. Yep And one one big announcement from either of those two could be all it takes And definitely fault the game aside the the just the player base of fault Definitely feels like it's players waiting for the other two to come out Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah It's people's filler game It's been the one that's been out so people are playing that because it's the only one that's out, right? And that's they from what we've seen SMS has done very little to try and Make those players actually fault players instead of just it's what's available players Well, I think that's sad because I think they've done a really good job of fault I they just they shot themselves in the foot so many times From the beginning that it's going to be hard for them to to pick themselves back up and get back and back ahead Because at one point in time fault was by far the most popular of all these Paragon successors because they actually gave us a game first, but Like we said the the launch didn't go so great and then It was buggy for a really long time and then they did that stupid ass season pass which a lot of people hated and um Just it was just mistake after mistake after mistake Like the way I explained it is in the army I you had soldiers that they were trying their best and god damn it They had a lot of heart But every time you gave them a task they would somehow fuck it up a lot of times It wouldn't be their fault like it would just be extenuating circumstances But you knew for a fact if you gave that soldier something to do It was going to get fucked up somehow or some way That's what fault seems to me like they their heart's in the right place They're trying their best, but something always happens And going back to faults like alpha weekend before they did the release in july of 2020 um That coming out of that alpha weekend people loved fault people were so excited about fault to come out And play it and be able to play it consistently and all of those things And then the release just killed all of their momentum and they basically went back to square one because of it Like it just completely just Shot themselves in the foot like you said mangoes and made it really really hard for them to to get the engine going again. Yeah I felt that their Early tests that are closed beta tests or closed alpha tests whatever you want to call them I felt that the game played better during those tests than than it did on early access I think they tried to do too much In between I think that's kind of what happened between patch 13 and patch 14 They tried to do a little too much without finalizing everything And then released the patch Again, they that was their shot at redemption But they released an unoptimized patch a lot of people came back and were like Eh, it's still still not cool. And then the left and then did a free weekend on the unoptimized patch Yes, that's all again another thing another instance of that concept mangoes of you're doing the right thing You're going pushing forward. Yes. There were bugs and optimization issues Sure fix them get them out But then instead of doing that they're like, and we're going to do a free weekend and lower the price after a bunch of you Probably just bought the game. Good luck Like, uh, what like what who decided this was a good idea And it wasn't and we talked about this before they announced it after they knew there were problems Which shows an even a worse concept for me from these companies Is showing that they're also not learning from their mistakes. Yeah Yeah, that's that's been something I've noticed I've been noticing as well It's like if they've been learning and improving for making the mistakes A lot of this stuff wouldn't be an issue for me because they're fairly new company. They're I don't know how long anyone had any experience before this uh with game design or not, but they Like you said, they're not learning from what they're messing up there in the whole process Which is kind of to me just looking like it's just going to be a repeat Just throwing a washing machine hit run wait for it stop hit run again Eventually you've got to change the shit over and make something different I love that analogy Odo actually because it you pull it out. It smells fresh You put it on and then within two days you're going this is dirty as hell And you take it off and put it back in the wash and wait for the next patch Right like that's that's false in in a nutshell and it sucks And like I'd all even used ethereal as an example of this Right ethereal was basically the poster child for not learning from their mistakes for years. Yes All right, like and to work for ethereal I know that that was the like before I even worked for them that that was a big problem and That was something that mangoes you and I over the last year of doing et I've basically been like stop doing this crap. Learn from your mistakes Stop doing this get over it like this is unacceptable and fault does not understand that yet and it's it shows I just want to interject real quick. I said army and soldiers But a lot of you guys know that I was also a marine. I didn't say marines because marines don't fuck up They just take an alternate route I get a commendation for original thinking but ethereal um Here's a mistake. I think you guys are making with ethereal You're keeping it on your own launcher. I think you need to go on steam or epic games. I really really do That's I keep that that's a question people keep asking like is this going to be on steam? Is this going to be on steam and that just gives you a lot more visibility now Don't make the mistake of putting it on steam if it's not in a great Place because then you're going to get shit steam reviews and it will never go anywhere Like finalize it in the in with with your own launcher But I think in the future if ethereal is going to survive in the long run if they're going to hit that three-year mark Like I said in the poll They need to come to steam or epic games or some kind of other platform other than your own Um, oh no, what do you think because uh jelly's gonna be biased as fuck But no, I'm with you goose and for a slightly different reason it's a lot of people who aren't following ethereal Right now don't know anything about it And there's a good chance that they're not going to see when it comes time for it any advertisements you're going to do And with it being on steam they're looking through Because i'm broke so i'm consistent. They're looking through the free games I picked up like five or six mobas in there just because they were free. I gave them Like I tried vain glory. I like that for a while. Uh I tried smite on pc for a little bit. It was terrible just as it was on playstation And if I can't a few others I can't remember the names of but just because they were there I picked them up it's one of the things where it's do you do something to get more eyes on it or Just having one place over here Kind of like the having more eggs in different baskets than all the eggs in one basket, right? and that's So I can only comment comment on ethereal so much, right? Yeah, right part of some of these decisions are above my pay grade I don't i'm not the guy that makes those decisions um and There's an extent that I agree with you auto in the people that don't know about ethereal don't know about ethereal just flat out It's not even like oh, I think I've heard of that. It's complete Right mangoes gets comments on almost every ethereal video of what is this game? Who is this? What is what's going on? Despite a year of videos By the same token ethereal is not mass marketing either ethereal is not an estate to mass market from what we've talked about before mangoes is Is it's just not in that place yet? So it's not A bad thing necessarily that people don't have that idea But it's also not a good thing that they don't have an idea of it either So it's kind of that middle ground at the same time now predecessor They're so far ahead right now that it it's difficult to imagine them ever falling behind any of the other games But I think if they continue down the path where they're just not speaking to their community at all It could go that way like We've seen the massive swings the community takes With all these paragon successful projects like nobody used to give a shit about predecessor and they cared about made a buff now It's all about you know, they went all all to predecessor and then when fault came out Nobody gave a fuck about predecessor anymore They all shifted over to fault and like we see these massive shifts in the community At any point in time they can shift away from predecessor And I think predecessor needs to do a little more on their part to keep that to keep the community's interest I will say um One of my subscribers showed me a graph that he made and he wanted to remain anonymous He doesn't want me to show give out the the link to this graph and stuff, but he was tracking Discord membership between all four games Predecessor is about the only one that's showing Steady drop-off like they're the weight they're by far the highest like they're That actually definitely highest but they're they're losing they're they're actually losing members More members than any of the other games um fault Fairly steady like the free weekend they gained a bunch and then afterwards they lost a bunch And then they then they keep losing like a theorist. They pretty steady and over prime is of course on the rise because of all the The news that's been coming out for them But I mean, I mean that shows the trend absolutely and The given predecessor in july when they had their last Oh, there's last stress test right predecessor's lead on comparison to all of the other games massive Their lead now if you measure the same way again Significantly less big less of the lead right over prime is is way is if not passing them very very close to doing so and even to an extent by association fault has grown on predecessor in in terms of Community and player base that is terrifying and that that comes purely from a lack of information That's not even because the game isn't playable. That's just a because they've basically gone dark since that test right But I mean at this point they're wal-mart and every other one's like a mom and pop store hundred percent so like They they turn it on and it it just goes. Yeah, that's simple. Yeah But uh, yeah, it's still I really want to see them interact with their community more because they could they could lose it to over prime right now They could lose their entire Because I don't even think they'd have to put something big out just to get people drawn back in just the last thing They put out was that recap which a lot of people found insulting like Like a lot of comments from that But like from what I've been talking about that are like man, they don't fucking even tell us anything That wasn't like that wasn't news. That was like like people are actually genuinely pissed off about that it was actually You see a lot of people drop off out of their discord after they They put that post I think people were like holding out for some kind of Big predecessor news and when their big news was a fucking recap of shit They've already done that everybody knows about pandering people were like, oh, fuck you and then just kind of left I mean, we talked about it briefly before me because I was pissed when that went out Yeah, I send you messages about it. I was pissed I was one of those people like really like you'd go dark for seven months and then that's what you're gonna put out No, like that's just it's sad and It to to contrast that they don't have to be putting out big news Being as large as they are for one thing like we said the machine will just go by itself putting out putting out Even semi consistent once a month if you just said like hey, this is what we've been working on this month That'd be plenty. Yeah, you don't have to drop release date. You don't have to do any of that Yes, you're gonna get the questions about it, but that's inevitable Right and and kind of the proof of the pudding of that is ethereal ethereal has been putting out Updates nothing crazy massive necessarily, right? Yeah, we had the couple stress tests but putting out updates And that's enough to just get the machine turning just to just to keep people informed to keep people going forward that's enough and then and Even on our side we see the numbers reflecting that with with smaller posts like that They don't have to do something crazy But going silent is not better right I think another another thing we need to consider to like When you compare false chances to Predecessors chances of surviving for at least three years fault doesn't have to pay anybody back like All the money they make they keep like They they never borrowed from anybody like omeda studios did they don't have to pay anything back They might just be sustainable because they don't have to Make as much in order to sustain the game. So they might actually outlast predecessor in that way I think predecessor is poised to Have a very very, um Good chance of actually surviving for at least three years, but They they they better start churning out some numbers because they got a lot of money to pay back to people I mean the epic grant they they don't got to pay that back That's a grant but like all the money that they borrowed from all these angel investors and like Different investment groups and stuff that those people expect a return on their money And it could turn sour very quickly at the same time. Yeah for predecessor. It could basically go hardcore one way or the other And they'll either blow up and it'll be great Or it could very quickly just nose dive into the ground and that'll be that yeah because of that concept of having to pay people back Right, and that's you're right fault could effectively coast for the next three years Not get better not get worse, but because they don't owe outside investors money that we know of at the very least They could effectively just coast along and be fine. Yeah Then overprime like I mean we're talking about that rager make that announcement where he's talked to the chief executive Like they report to somebody so like they too they too need to be able to make money like It's kind of a good thing because netmarble netmarble will want a return on their investment into team solely So they're probably a little more willing to give them a little more money to keep them going to make the game successful But at some point in time you got to cut your losses So if it doesn't blow up if it if it's not making money they could just shut Overprime down at any point in time And it'll be just like what we saw with paragon epic just shut it down And that was my gonna be my exact point is Is that investment especially coming from companies like that could easily just Turn it off like a light switch and it's not making money. It's costing us more than it's worth. Bye There's very little there's very few of those large-scale companies that are going to put in Potentially years of work to then see the payoff. They're just gonna shut it down move everyone to something else that may pay off faster All right. I think that's about all I had to say on the topic unless you got Guys got anything else you want to delve into or do you want to just throw out some final thoughts? Uh, I think for final thoughts I think any of them have the potential to survive I don't think they all survive at the same time And I would agree with the poll that I think And partly because I'm on the team right but that two of the games will survive just out of the four Just two of them will survive being likely to be one of the the paragon successors And ethereal out of that bunch Oh, do you got any final thoughts? Not well a little bit uh I think out of the paragon the para zombies like I said, I definitely think even if Over time has a chance to succeed even if it doesn't blow up over here Fault if sms doesn't start learning from what they're doing I I don't think coasting is gonna work for them Because I think eventually everyone's just gonna leave the game. So if it keeps going the way it is I don't think sms is gonna be here in three years Even if they don't have any investors, it's there's just not gonna be a player base. Everybody's gonna leave I mean because just me playing as steadily as I have from The optimization patch to now It's progressively getting harder to get games the later in the night I go Yeah, so it's like usually when n a is like from 6 30 to like 12 ish and then it starts the fall off I'm having it fall off as early as 9 30 I get like a two and a half hour span where I get decent games For pred like you guys said if they don't start releasing things And don't tell anybody anything It could die before it actually gets off the ground So they need to get something moving And a theory for you guys jelly All you have to do is not have a catastrophic failure on everything And I I've told people this If and when you guys go full release and everything's the way you want it I fully believe you guys are going to be the next big game hands down like legal legends dota fortnite big because that's With as much changes that you guys are bringing into the mobile genre And the way you're doing it I think it's possible. Mm-hmm because it's the art style is amazing the sound from the music is amazing I just really think that if everything goes right and goes The way you need it to hands down one of the top games. All right, I just think uh It's it's it's fun to kind of think about how things are going to go But we really won't know until they're all out and playable and then we can just actually compare Them between each other because I mean everybody shits on the fault now But what if over prime and pred comes out and they're they're kind of they kind of suck And they're they're they're way behind because they haven't been out forever And all of a sudden false next big thing you never know what's going to happen with these games until we can play all of them Um, I think ethereal went the best route with just going a completely different game because I mean you guys weren't even supposed to be a paragon successor but That's also a dangerous route because you don't have that built-in fan base like everybody else does but uh I don't know. I think give it a year and I think we'll we'll have a little more of a firm grass one Who will actually be able to survive? um And if pred doesn't come out this year I think that's gonna be a huge blow to them with over prime being Out and fault being out like people might just eventually just forget about bread, but uh I don't know man It's going to be fun watching it. It's been fun this whole time. There's been ups. There's been downs, but uh It's been a good time to to say the least so let's let's move on to plugs. Uh, odor You got your your twitch in your youtube's Yeah, I got a twitch youtube. I got a twitter that i'm kind of sort of working on using Uh, it's under the same name. It's at odor Yeah odor 917 because it's apparently my show has already taken So if you want to find me there, I occasionally post I mostly retweet right now and a few words of nonsense every now and then But yeah twitch youtube usually find me on twitch So I'd be Understand that we need to go beat the shit out of 916 other odos. Yeah, right? Jelly what you got Well, I mean you heard man goose right tune back in for et 132 when we're talking about all these games next year And we'll be able to give you the full scoop on everything Uh, no, but I stream on twitch twitch.tv slash jelly knees do marvelous monday, of course And yeah, that's about it. What about you man goose? I got nothing So that's going to wrap it up for this week We didn't have a lot of updates, but I thought that topic was very interesting. I'm I'm happy with this episode And I appreciate you coming out and joining us odor and again if anybody out there You don't have to be a content creator You just anybody who wants to come on here and have some opinions And you don't have to have the same opinions as jelly and I there's a reason we got three people Like that was one thing that got brought up to me. Like I yeah, if you disagree with me, then Perfect. I would love to have that conversation as long as you're not a dick about it And it's a conversation and not an argument then You know, let's do this But uh, that is going to wrap it up for this week folks I thank you all for coming out if you're watching the premiere if you're just watching the video As a standalone cool, that's cool too, but uh, yeah, uh, we'll see you guys next week Man goos Special shout out to channel members foolish bloodhunter jelly knees me I'll mix for men stunt ferrith and raven