 I'm your host Pedro Ducosta. Welcome to the State of Working America podcast, where we seek to elevate workers' voices to make sure they're heard in the economic policy debate in Washington and beyond. I'm on the sidelines of Erncon here in Pittsburgh, and I have the pleasure of being joined by Tanya Wallace-Gobern, who's executive director of the National Black Worker Center Project. And she gave a fascinating talk here yesterday, and I wanted to follow up with her. You talked a little bit about the concept of work that goes unrecognized, that's done by minority and primarily black communities, really. And you talked about the concept of a curb cutout, which I thought was absolutely fascinating, and I would love for you to expand on that. Sure. Well, thank you, Pedro. So the reason that I came up with this analogy is because frequently, we are asked, why focus on black workers, why not focus on all black workers? And I think that all workers, excuse me, all workers of all races, yes, thank you. I think that that question stems from a belief that if you just focus on black workers or people of color or minorities, that somehow you're not quite cutting, you're not getting to the gist of the root causes of oppression, discrimination, harassment, worker justice type issues. And so we came up with this analogy of the curb cutout, because it's something that people don't even think about. So what is a curb cutout? It's that part of the sidewalk that you come to that's on an incline that allows you to have easy access to the street or to the sidewalk. You don't even recognize that you don't think about it unless you are dragging luggage or baby carriage or something heavy or a bicycle, and there's no curb cutout. And then you get pissed off that it's not there. And the reality. I literally didn't even know it was called a curb cutout. Until I heard you talk about it. So that's how much we just assume it's existed. That's right. The other thing that we assume is that the curb cutout is for people like you and I, people who are not disabled. But the reality is that the curb cutout was created in response to World War II veterans. Disabled veterans coming back in 1945 and easing access to them. And it's because of that ease of access for people who were disabled that we have all benefited. And that is true, I believe, for African-Americans and predominantly African-Americans, especially African-American workers. The work that we do, the accomplishments that we make, the struggles that we have, benefit everyone. And so that's why it's important for us to focus on Black workers. At the National Black Worker Center, we say that African-American workers are the economic canary in the coal mines of this country. So if anything is going to happen and by way of harassment by discrimination, we are the testing grounds for that exploitation. And the way that power works is it doesn't just stop with African-Americans with Black people. Discrimination is not siloed, right? And so if African-Americans and Black people are successfully harassed, discriminated against, and disenfranchised, then power just moves on to the next sector. And so we have to hold the line, if you will, to ensure the safety and rights and liberties for the rest of this country. Could you talk about the particularities or specific challenges that you face as someone who does the kind of work that you do in the South? It's interesting that you asked about what happens in the South, and I'll share with you. So I'm originally from Chicago, and I moved to the South to organize African-American women in particular, and that led me to organizing in the clothing and textile industry, like that was in the early 90s. And in the early 90s, there was a saying that we had in the South, as goes the South goes the rest of the country. And it's important to kind of call that out because there's a narrative that's told about the South. And when I talked about those silos for Black people, there's silos also for the South. And so back in the early 90s and beyond, there was the stereotypes where the South is slower, that they're different, and because of that, they don't get the same types of benefits that everyone else has throughout the rest of the country, that racism, that's a Southern problem. But the reality, just like my story about Black workers is, when we allow ourselves to believe this lie, basically, then power doesn't just stay in that one area. So the Southern problem is a Northern problem, it's a Western problem, it's an issue that we see everywhere. Some of the ways that that has manifested is with right to work laws, right? Right to work, or as we would say in the South, the right to work for less, like used to just be a Southern problem. And no one did anything about it, right? Because it was just our issue. Now it is the country's issue. And so I wanna just kind of highlight that this isn't really a Southern problem, it's a worker justice problem that we are working to address. I really appreciate that framing, and that's really important. And can you talk about some of the kinds of work, going back to the curb cut out concept, the kinds of work over the years, concrete examples, I think of, I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is kind of voting rights and civil, you know, the fight for civil rights, which of course benefits everybody, but it was led by Black individuals who are at the forefront of it. Can you think, can you tell me about other examples of that kind of progress that's been made over the years that we neglect, but that started because of activism within Black community? So some recent things come to my mind, but I think about just the civil rights movement and affirmative action language, right in the attacks on affirmative action. So I told a story about my experience when I went to college and that one of my friends thought that I was at school on a Black scholarship, excuse me, because I was a Black student and because of affirmative action and I think that's some of the stories that we hear, but one of the things that we talk about in our community is like, who has benefited the most from affirmative action? It hasn't been white people. I mean, okay, so. Actually, I want to start over because I heard you tell this story about what happened in college and I want you to tell it more in full. Can you tell us how that experience, you know, what that experience was like for you? Sure, so as I mentioned before, I'm from Chicago, I went to Loyola University as a way to pay for my books. I had a part-time job, like a lot of college students do. And one of my girlfriends, we got a job at the same law firm together and we were lamenting about how expensive school was, how much our books cost and Kathy said to me, my girlfriend at the time, well, at least you have these Black scholarship dollars. And I asked her, what was she talking about? And she said that all of the Black students, you know, get Black scholarship. And I was 18 at the time and I believed her. So I went to the financial aid office to let them know that I had not received my Black financial aid. And it was there that I learned, of course, right, that there was no such thing as Black financial aid. But it really spoke to one of the narratives that we hear and that become, they start off as a stereotype, then it becomes a narrative, then it becomes reality for a lot of people. And affirmative action, I think, has had that same trajectory. And when we think about the successes of affirmative action, frequently people think about Black people having access to jobs, to different experiences, to different environments where they traditionally were excluded from. But we don't think about the success of affirmative action for white women. And white women have benefited greatly from affirmative action. And so I would say that is another cut out, right? That we experience, that we take for granted that we don't think of. So while it's no longer seen as questionable as a woman, how she got to a certain place, or maybe it is, but it's not as much as it used to be, we don't realize what led to that process taking place. I can think of another example of the curb cut out. Although it's not a curb cut in the sense because the person that cut out the curb recognized that they were making the cut out. Which is the way in which the Me Too movement transitioned from Tehran and Burke's rather quiet and contained intra-Black community movement, to the way Alyssa Milano, whom I've gotten to know over social media, after Trumpism, she created that hashtag and, but to her credit, she elevated Tehran and Burke all throughout and made sure that she was central. This is the story. But again, there were stories that Black women had been telling all this time and then suddenly it reached Hollywood in a sort of white world and it became national news. That's correct, that's correct. That's exactly correct. It reminds me of, I listened to the Tom Joyner morning show and one of the things that they talk about is little-known Black history facts, right? Things that you just don't, that one you aren't taught, that we aren't educated about, but we take for granted as part of the way that we function in society and these are things that Black people did and created that people just don't acknowledge or realize. I mean, that's, I was talking to Nina Banks earlier about the importance of diversity in the most real and concrete sense rather than the sort of the poster board like faces of different colors sense, diversity in the sense of having literally actual different perspectives at the table and whatever discipline it is, whether it's economics or activism, because people tend to ask the questions that are most relevant to themselves. That's right and I think that we need to go beyond diversity, right? Because if you think about the framing and the narrative about diversity, it means that you have a spot at the table and not necessarily a voice at the table and so I'd like to think of us moving from having conversations around diversity to conversations of inclusion because in order for you to give that perspective, space has to be created and if your space is a diversity spot, then I've got my Black and then I've got my Latinx and then I've got my woman and then I've got my Asian and you know your role and that role is to just sit there and be at the table as opposed to what is your role of inclusion and that role of inclusion means that you have a voice and I think that that's what leads to true value of diversity and that's what we have to do more of in this country. We have to value the diversity of opinions, the diversity of experience, the diversity of skill and realize that that is a true American dream, right? When we can bring together people from different backgrounds and those experiences weave something stronger that we would not have if again we were siloed. As a Brazilian Italian American from Boston via Paris, I can relate. No, that's so important that you make that point because I can tell you from personal experience that EPI in my 20-year career is the first place where let's put it this way, it's the first place where there's more than one Black person in the office because I worked in newsrooms. There were extremely, I mean people ask why the news is the way it is, go visit a newsroom. The newsrooms are led by white men and there's even a diversity, there's still a massive gender diversity problem even within the white sphere. And so, I lost my train of thought, but this is my point. So EPI is the first workplace that I've experienced that where my Black co-worker wasn't like the only Black co-worker in the place and it makes such a difference to the way that people are able to be themselves in the workplace even, right? Because as you said before, if they're just like, they're gonna act cautiously as one does if you're the only one, if you're the representative of anything in a place, you're gonna feel alone. But once you are surrounded by people like yourself, you're able to be yourself in a way that you're not in other spaces. That's right, not only will you feel alone, you will feel the need to assimilate, right? And not be, and to cover and hide your true self. It's only when we see ourselves reflected back and forth then we feel empowered, right? If I don't see myself, if I don't hear myself, then how comfortable am I being myself? And the reality is to be yourself in a space when you are the only one is to take a risk. And a lot of people aren't willing to take that risk. And when we don't have those risk takers, when we don't open up inclusion, then we don't have the best. We don't have the best because we don't have diversity. And it speaks to when you talked about the media, this is something that we are at the Black Workers Center talking about, right? The underfunding of media now. We look at the different outlets that are just going out of business, right? And so we know what that looks like for mainstream and it's tenfold for black press, for black media. And so where will we go? Where will people of color go? Where will black people go to get information that is specifically about them? Absolutely. Where will we go to get our news? And so our hope is that, and the work that needs to be done is to ensure that these spaces are inclusive spaces and that there is a press for news that is inclusive and all news is told. Well, the State of Working America podcast is certainly such a forum. But, and the other thing about inclusiveness that I was thinking about as you mentioned it, is it matters that to have inclusion or inclusiveness with regards to positions of power as well. You can't just have sort of the tokenization of diversity hires in positions that are not powerful. Because I'll give you an example in newsrooms, a lot of times women editors, women are promoted to editorial positions but then they report, they ultimately report to a male editor and that sets the tone for the kinds of stories they get told, the kinds of stories that make it through, the kinds of questions they get asked. Yeah, you know, and it's interesting that you raise it because there's something else that we've been doing some research and looking into. So we know about the glass ceiling. We know about the concrete ceiling. And so we're also looking at what's being called the glass cliff. Have you heard of that term? It's a term that's used for a specific occasion and it's a study that's been done on when are these opportunities, or when is it that African American women are raised to a level of leadership within organizations? And that traditionally tends to be when the organization is in a place of chaos, right? That's when that woman gets that opportunity and it's a glass cliff, right? Because it's kind of a catch 22. So you don't have any support. You're in the best, the worst possible scenarios. And this is your one shot to make it. Wow. That reminds me of Obama's election. We've got a great recession coming. Let's get a black president in the White House. So that's pretty amazing. Which makes people hesitant, right? To take on leadership and responsibility. Well, thank you so much for your time. This is really fascinating. I really appreciate it. Actually, I wanted to ask you one more thing. So before we go, can you talk about the kinds of projects that you guys are engaged in and what is exciting to you in your work right now? What kinds of projects and what kinds of, especially as far as activism that is working and the positive stories that we can tell in this time of chaos. Definitely, we need some positivity. So the National Black Worker Center is a network of eight black worker centers in cities across the country. We are in Mississippi, New Orleans, North Carolina, Chicago, Washington, D.C., Baltimore, L.A., and Oakland, California. And we are doing tremendous work. And I'm so proud of our network and our membership. So a couple of examples that I will give you of things that are working and that are hard but are still working for us. Chicago did a tremendous campaign on banning the box that they were successful in in Oakland, California. They negotiated with Alameda County to identify 14,000 county positions for formerly incarcerated individuals. And by these positions, not the traditional positions that they're offered, right? The people in the orange vest, really good jobs that come with quality wages. And L.A., the L.A. Black Worker Center has done a tremendous amount of work within the construction industry. They are working on a light rail campaign right now. Working to also change the affirmative action EEOC language, which was written in 1967 that speaks to hiring minorities but doesn't disaggregate which minorities those are or how we quantify those minorities. And if you go back to that silo, right? It's a race to the bottom when you just call people minorities. And it turns to be, who can we exploit the most in this timeframe? So they're doing that wonderful work. And then nationally, we've launched a campaign called Black Voices, Black Votes. And Black Voices, Black Votes is really about understanding the realities of voting in the African-American community. There's tremendous work that's being done by other organizations on voter registration and GLTV activities, get out the vote activities. But where we think that we can lean in and have been leaning in is the third leg of that stew which is holding elected officials accountable. And so we are doing work to survey African-Americans and Wake County and North Carolina to find out what their economic priorities are. Just this September 3rd, we had our first people's forum of the local candidates that were running for election and reelection in North Carolina. And our goal is to take those economic priorities and present them to folks who are running for office and to say to them, if you want our vote, this is what we expect from you. Far too often, the Black vote is something that is trotted out and pimped before each election, right? Black votes matter, but Black voters do not matter. And we are changing that to make sure and ensure that all Black voters actually matter and that we are building power for them together that is sustainable, not just during the election season but throughout their lives and throughout their communities. Thank you so much. I'm glad I asked. Thank you so much. That was Tanya Wallace-Govern. She's the executive director at the National Black Worker Center Project and this was the State of Working America podcast. You can download us on iTunes and Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts or you can go to epi.org slash podcast and sign up there. Thank you so much.