 Hello, and welcome to the Applied Improvisation Network Book Club. You can see a fine array of libraries in front of us or behind us depending on your perspective. And we'll have probably a shortest session today where we might exchange our thoughts about books. So to each one say hello and something about books or about something else. After you, Jeannie. Okay. Hello, I am Jean or Jeannie on both of the work and something about books. I distinctly remember getting my first library card. When I was a kid because I grew up right near the public library here in Chicago and I was really really excited about it and I, I remain always really really excited about libraries. So that's, that's my contribution thus far. Paul's Ed Jackson, and was amazed and almost horrified to hear that you have permission to take 50 books from the Chicago Public Library at one time. My first library, you, you were allowed I think six books, and that seemed like a typical number for a long time. So I feel very extravagant and indulgent when my bedside is covered in straight books. Hi, my name is Colin Pinks, and I think there's two thoughts which have come to mind after the kind of conversations there. There's one from a library perspective. I'm only a mile from the northern part of the British library in Boston Spa. So it feels very kind of relevant. I should go and see it even though I pass it most days on my bike. You just think now I'm now I really have a sense of duty to actually see what's inside of the place rather than just being a massive concrete building that houses loads of stuff out of the way where we are. And the second one that now you've been talking about libraries, it reminds me of my days, particularly at university, as most of us probably doing of them, of either reading about the two reasons for being at university where I was trying to remember my cranial nerves and trying to, you know, when I was doing dentistry. And then the other side of kind of thinking about robotics and cybernetics and computer graphics. When I was doing computer science. So therefore the memory of sitting in a library of trying to cram stuff into your head before certain exams is my probably most pertinent memories of libraries. All positive knowledge, which I've absolutely not used over these years, but that that's life. Coming into a quiz or something sometime. Absolutely. You think of, did we have somebody else joined. Yeah, he joined and left before I could admit him such was his speed. I don't know if anyone were to return. Should we leave the games until we have another book club meeting with more participants. Yes, we can leave the games or, or we can decide to maybe play one at the end or. So yeah I think play one at the end and I just did want to remark on the stray books I think stray books are better than Farrell books. Farrell books can be a little aggressive sometimes, and they can be hard to get to know and I am starting a trap and release program for Farrell books. Very kind and public spirited. Yeah, maybe we can do the book Oracle later. Yes, yeah, I think the book Oracle would be fun to do later. I would like to share a book related quote and get your views on it. I'm going to put this in the chat and I'll read it as well. This is a quote from one of my favorite authors. I haven't read any of his work for a long time. Kurt Vonnegut. He said, and I just saw this in a the way that all information comes to us these days in the Facebook post. When I was 15 I spent a month working on an archaeological dig I was talking to one of the archaeologists one day during our lunch break and he asked those kinds of getting to know you questions you ask young people. You play sports. What's your favorite subject. And I told him, no, I don't play any sports. I do theater. I'm in choir. I play the violin and piano. I used to take art classes. And he went, wow, that's amazing. And I said, oh no, but I'm not any good at any of them. And he said something then I will never forget, which absolutely blew my mind because nobody had ever said anything like it to me before. I don't think being good at things is the point of doing them. I think you've got all these wonderful experiences with different skills. And that all teaches you things and makes you an interesting person, no matter how well you do them. And that honestly changed my life, because I went from a failure someone who hadn't been talented enough at anything to excel to someone who did things because I enjoyed them. I had been raised in such an achievement oriented environment. So inundated with the myth of talent that I thought it was only worth doing things if you could win them. And that really struck me as being a very improvisationally related piece. And in my, in my conceptualization of improvisation, life pass, the P in life pass stands for play to play, and is contrasted with playing to win. And also allows for playing to learn so many purposes of play and play seems to be characteristic of the thing that's going on whenever anyone is improvising. The idea of playing to play, which one of your supports here rather than play to win is very liberating and opens up a whole way of experiencing things other than competitively. That's my offering. Because it has a resonance for me, Paul, because I think I have that. It's kind of conversation quite a lot about my reflections on my school journey, having, which I only then really reflected back on when I got kicked out of dentistry at 20. So I kind of come from school and gone in gone into that as both of you know, but anyone listening may not. And so therefore did that it's only when you've kind of come off the train tracks that you then realize you were on some train tracks. And it's then kind of later on in life, probably last, you know, seven or eight years getting involved in theater and improv and then a much wider wider spectrum of things is that a similar kind of resonance where you realize, you're thinking has been almost programmed through that, that experience of what is what is good and what is valued. And so therefore the school experiences value, you know, like say success and passing exams is the value rather than the width of experience and breadth of experience. Exactly that point when you kind of get into various other dimensions and then where we are now which is trying to bring those together. I'll say you know where the overlaps what's interesting, what's what's a where's a resonance where can you take some experience from one dimension and maybe share it in another. I think it that's that resonates with with that experience of going, it's good to breadth breadth and your experience, because it's interesting, rather than trying to win, or, or in our domain often, let's go on that course so I can then go and get some money by doing it, rather than going well just go on it because it might be interesting and it might make you think slightly differently, rather than thinking you've got to leverage it very directly. So it's yeah that which is which is actually something I've been doing over the last probably two years, we go well it's swimming around doing different things. And without any kind of sense of where it might be going, I think we're some of us had a conversation about emergence a couple of weeks ago and being authentic about it and you know if you want to be authentic about it. It's actually you've got to swim around in uncertainty and then then be authentic and go I don't know if anything's going to come out of this. So yeah it kind of reminds me of that so yeah really really nice I think I read it on the same Facebook one but it's really resonates me so thank you for that. Yeah, there's so many things I like about this, this quote. I think in our very quantified world. We always want to know the direct and attributable result of something. And in reality I think often those attributions are much harder to find and because you know it's, you never know, really, when an idea when a thought when something will be useful, or helpful and I like this idea that you do things for the experiences in those inform a whole way of being in the world. And it also makes me think with improv where the, the permission to play that so many people are just afraid to experiment, or just feel that you know there's not that direct relation, or visible relation to what they do so there's not even that a lot of experimentation, and we learn through play and through experimentation. And it also makes me think of how insights occur, and you know, those, those little thoughts that are wandering around, and they've never met before. And they're both in the same brain but all of a sudden one meets the others that go hey I've never seen you before and then the other goes oh hi. And then a new thought and a new idea emerges and I think that those doing those different activities that fire up literally different parts of the brain but that engage different parts of our mind our heart our body that those are all those opportunities for more knowledge and more insight and more experience to occur so. And as a, as someone who has been on an archaeological dig I highly recommend it. Thank you. Did either of you bring something or have something in mind that you wanted to put forward. I have a couple of things that I brought one is on so in our in my neighborhood hold on let me turn off my background so there we go. In, in my neighborhood there are all these little libraries. So as if it wasn't good enough to have the public nearby, but there are these. One of the reasons that people have in front of their homes and people put in books that they don't want anymore. And, and then you, that you no longer want anymore. And the first chapter is on time and how we came to have agreed upon time and the evolution of our modern calendar and then different timekeeping devices and time is always something that I've been very interested in just with my background in archaeology and anthropology and then historic preservation. And I think, and then also my interest in foresight that I think it's all related and so the, the ability in improv and applied improv to play with time and to intentionally move with that ability that we have to move through the past move be in the present and then look toward the future is really fun and so this is giving me some, some good game ideas that I'm developing related to time and it's also it's just fascinating. And I'll find a good passage to read but Colin you can go ahead and share something and I'll find something juicy in here. Before you do that, can I respond to the book. Yeah. I had a look on my bookshelves today for one book maybe to bring. Before I settled on the Vonnegut quote, I'll show you the book that I selected goes into library and emerges from library. I think that's absolutely extraordinary. I was looking at the bit on time and some of the other chapters. I was trying to find a reference doesn't go. So to prove that I didn't just pull that off the shelf based on genie doing it. If you look in the index, you'll find that there's no reference to microprocessing or computers even. So it only goes up to a certain period of time. And I was trying to find it because I in my mind I'd heard someone say they'd fallen out with someone because this book had given one of them more credit than the other, having to remember what that story was to you. No, I don't but now I want to know what it is. Yeah, I couldn't remember which is another reason I didn't take the book with me but that was my good choice of all the books. It's so because interestingly so I mean I have as I noted at the beginning I have my maximum of 50 books out from the library so I'll just stop hold on one second. So my actual. Anyway, I have no shortage of books and I was thinking about which ones to pull today and I like I have like this. And if you have the same one, this will be really weird but the second choice. Yeah, the, it's the handbook of human emotion. And it just gives different different emotions and the kind of etymology of them or how they, you know whether they exist in different languages and things like that and so I think that's kind of that's absolutely a great source for creating games around it. I think that's kind of that's absolutely a great source for creating games around it. But I, I just did some cleaning up last night and put some books and rearrange some and then I just thought oh you know what I'll just grab this and so that's so strange. That is very weird. And so what, what about that book has been interesting to you aside, aside from the battle between the falling out. Yeah, it's, it's been on my shelf for years. I would take it from house to house when I've moved without ever reading it. I've dipped in and had a look. It's one of those books that if we ever had, I don't know some sort of international pandemic where we were forced to stay at home for months I'd get around to reading it. Yeah, it's. So this, this is related to that so this is an interesting passage. The sun's shadow remained the universal measure of time. And this was a handy measure, since the simple sundial could be made anywhere by anybody without special knowledge or equipment. But the cheery boast, I count only the sunny hours inscribed on modern sundials announces the obvious limitation of the sundial for measuring time. The sundial measures the sun shadow, no sun, no shadow. A shadow clock was useful only in those parts of the world, where there was lots of sunlight, and then it served only when the sun was actually shining. So sundials in the UK. We do have them. Yeah, we do too. I, when I was living in Hong Kong, I was at, I went to this really interesting jazz show where as one might imagine a lot of it was improvised improvised an afterword I was talking to one of the musicians. And he said that one of the interesting facets of a lot of Chinese art is that there's no shadow. And so that there's no sense of time so everything is in the present, which I absolutely, I think about that a lot and just that notion of the shadows and using shadow as a way to perceive time is just fascinating. So, there you have it. Interesting. There's a few things that that's reminded me of one I'm just going to drop in here. It did kind of remind me when he's talking about time as a thing the hundred objects that changed the world, which was, it's, it's a kind of pocket packets of 15 minute history from. Who is it, it's. Yeah, and Gregor who is the, I think the head curator, whatever I listened to on the bus on going to the going to a job a few years ago. And just really interesting, particularly almost the first 20 objects and how that then shapes the kind of stuff so it's in, you know, talking about that. You talked about archaeology and that kind of thing, you know, what are some of those things. So it reminded me about that. And also from the conversation so far I was, I was reminded of, I mean, and one of the other networks I mean is a place called liminal. And basically the kind of the kind of the space in between. And I think that that's, I kind of quite like that idea of, I often kind of talk about then, you know, we, we sit in the often our role is to bring pockets of stuff together and then see what overlaps and what happens. And, you know, it's the interfaces between things, which are quite interesting. What happens when you mix two colors, what happens when the water hits the hits the land. What kind of interference do you get when, when you do that, and when communities come together, what happens when they mix. And what are circumstances so yes this space in between is an interesting complex space. And I've just kind of ended up being a swimming around in that so it reminded me about some of those things. I don't know if I can reach it but hold on I'll try. So it's buried in the shelves but I think it's understanding comics by Scott McLeod I'm not positive but he talks about the space in between the panels in a comic, and that that's a whole it's it's all other world of time and space and things that are in that space. And I think that is interesting related to the liminality and then also thinking about improv scenes, and that this the what the white spaces between the scenes and what happens between those things as well. We'll see if I can find the book. Yeah, and just just by saying those words actually I was, I might have mentioned this series before but Tim, the adventures in music. This is a novel by Stuart Copeland again on BBC for so my apologies for non UK people listening to this, but hopefully you might be able to find it in some way. And also he did a, he did a think I think kind of guitar bass and drums so an episode on each of those things which is the first one. This is a clip I posted I think it was on on a I am probably about 12 months ago now about the drummer from Prince so. I can remember, I was going to say Gina G but that that's a Eurovision injury from the UK that I don't think that's the right answer. And but the drummer, and he was talking to her, and it basically it's really interesting about the, the spaces are as important as the beats. And it seems so obvious, yet, I think, often we don't pay attention to the space and the gaps and the pause. Miles Davis talks about the notes he didn't play. Exactly. Yeah, kind of reminds me of that when when we're doing scenes often. I mean, it's my complaint about lots lots of improv, you know, it ends up being talking heads without any space in it. What about jumping these ideas from theater and scenes to application or improvisation in other areas or aspects of the world. Does that provoke. In this context, I think it's taking those lessons that you get from experiential, and then say well, how, how would this, if you raise these points, how does that apply in a, let's say an organizational context or a communications, you know, context, are you, are you leaving enough pauses, are you leaving enough space. What does it feel like when there's a pause in a, in a conversation. When you're in meetings, are you talking all the time and not really listening. So I think it's just drawing those little things out, and then planting them in the other context is our interesting questions to raise for people I think we are pausing now. Time to listen and turn taking as well. So I think it's just a little application of some of those ideas for me. I'm trying to think of some of the shadow and time aspects. Well I think with some of the shadow and time aspects. Time is fascinating because on, we do have some universally, or we have some idea of agreed upon structures for time, you know a day is 24 hours. Kind of a minute is 60 seconds and, and yet within that the experience of time can be incredibly subjective and then different organizations in different cultures can have different approaches to time and how what is time well spent versus what is time poorly spent and productivity and you know. I think that it's always interesting when working with someone to kind of ask them about the time culture of their organization. And what, and even just things related to timeliness because in some places you know being on time is not polite and then in other places, not being on time is impolite and then so, and then just is there. I think unaccounted for time is a is hugely important that we as people have that so thinking about kind of the white space between the comics, where what is this space where all these things happen and giving people time. That earmark that's not that they don't have to report on to themselves or to other people because we all, we all have I think. I think generally when people are kind of faced with unassigned time it can be a very challenging experience for some people, because there's a, you know I have to do something with this something has to be done rather than just kind of pausing and being there in that little space between and seeing what's there. I read a book a long time ago about creativity. It was the first phase was germination. Just do nothing. Yeah, see what happens. That is important time. Good. I can find it that there was an interesting study that was a study on creativity and they asked if I'm remembering it correctly they asked participants to come up for a use, like uses for a button. And then they were invited to go out for a walk and kind of reflect on the uses for the buttons, and then come back and come up with more uses for the button and generally. They had no space. So just kept thinking button button button, they came up with fewer ideas for the button but those who had some space and then also a contemplative walk came up with better button ideas. I can think of no uses for a button at all. Invention of the zip. Yeah, are there stills. No, no it's buttons are so less century. I mean, did you, did you bring something or have something. The kind of the end point of the, of a little piece I've done is, is kind of where we've ended up which is actually you kind of talked about attention management and cognitive load and those kind of things so I'll kind of ramp back to then arrive at that space and the one thing I've been kind of reading I did another one of the things we were talking about kind of random things to go and do through a relationship and whatever was this book, which I think you can see it the right way and can you see the text the right way around. Not the author. Oh, disappeared. I know. I'm just upgrade. So I'll read the author so you can hear it so it's upgrade so it's Richard Boston and Karen Ellis. Okay. So, essentially this is, it's a, it's a book about adult development. And so the idea of, I think, the idea that rather than trying to build more capabilities and the analogy being to fill the glass with water. How can we increase the size of the glass. You know, from a human perspective so I think it's you know horizontal versus vertical development is is the expression. And so adult development is a way to what are some of the ways to increase the size of the glass. And so essentially it, it talks about four kind of capabilities to grow, which is sense making perspective shifting self relating and opposable thinking. And these kind of things it's a bit of a process to go well where are you at the moment there are some attributes and what you can do. How do you then grow those. And so this is just kind of going through it at the moment. So it's the, the idea of how do we deal with, you know, the world of complexity. How can we actually increase our skills and increase how do we do that. And so yeah I just kind of been reading that so it's just an interesting way to think about how can we do that because a lot of this, these because I've done some stuff in, which is a complexity model. And also, I think I talked to you both last time about Nora Bates and and kind of warm data. So but the interesting thing for me relating to where we come from is a lot of it is kind of models and shapes and kind of conversations. Whereas there isn't a lot of like practicality about it. In other words, how do you go and do it. And what it's making me think about is what are the kind of practical things that we do as exercises as games or, or, you know, leading people through a process, a practical experiential process that then relates back to this stuff. And how can we help people think about self relating, or how can we help people put a practical example of sense making or perspective shifting. So actually, which, you know, I've, I've kind of encountered it a few years ago about, you know, in NLP it's about, if you have a conversation with someone, you kind of think about as two chairs, then you might think of a third perspective which is almost the camera on that conversation. So, you know, sitting chair one chair to chair three, but then then you kind of almost like chair for which is, well actually, the third chair probably has some judgments in it. So if you're an observer to a conversation, that's probably human judgment. The fourth chair is well what's the objective stuff happening. For example, so it's that these kind of things, the link between applied improvisation and these kind of things well, how can we make this more practicable. How can we make it more experiential to actually land some of this learning, rather than just kind of write books about it so well you should do a little bit more of this. That's the link that I'm getting with this because I've kind of talked about notice, you know, the art of noticing a lot, which is how my stuff is developing into. So each of those four things are actually noticing the situation so sense making is noticing the situation perspective shifting is noticing the place self relating is noticing self and what's going on for me. What I'm thinking is noticing a position. And so yeah it's just been kind of reading that so it's that kind of that for me that the link in between. I've got a second one which which for me enough genie I have talked about before but that's that's that's the start of a 10 so yeah it's just interesting to link a theory with our kind of practicality. The four dimensions that you've just described to being an expansion of the improvisational concept of being here and now being being present in space and in time and that there's elements of space spatial presence that you're expanding upon in that in there. There's a model to develop, and there are infinite numbers of activities existing and yet to be created in the improvisational repertoire to bring people into more experience of here and now. There's, I can, there was a conference here a few years ago about kind of the neuro, the neuroscience of place, and how the place that we're in shapes us and then how we shape the place that we're in where it becomes this almost feedback loop with it and it's, it's so there's so many interesting activities to kind of create from that to get people to attune to their environment and just yeah those simple things and we're, we're so good and so bad at noticing at the same time like we have these incredible abilities to notice things sometimes just because noticing can be challenging we can also tune them out incredibly well as well and and yeah, I will send that list of the results of that conference, not the results but the reading list from that conference I'd put one together, but I will happily share those. So, so as I was, I was just talking through that just to give it the second bit of value is so therefore that kind of got me thinking into, like I say, attention management and cognitive load because actually to go to your point genius like, well, it's because we've got this extra load that we find it more difficult to notice, which is going back to the walking, walking around the block to actually get open ourselves up to understanding what a button can do for us. Similar kind of thing, which then led led me on to the thing and this will make you laugh genie obviously because we've talked about this one before, which is this, which is, yeah, yeah, exactly. This is the Future Shock by Alvin Topflit, exactly. Which strangely, Genie and I kind of made a promise to each other to go and read it and then talk about it and probably, neither of us have managed to do it because of stuff. Yes, yes. That's right. That's right. But I think it's, I got this from a, you know, somewhere because I, I found a quote from him to do in an innovation presentation I did a couple of years ago about the idea of the skill going forward is the ability to unlearn, rather than only learn. And so that ability to, can we let things go. But thing is the interesting thing is this was written in 1973. And you just read some of it now and you're just going, this is massively relevant about our world once again. So in some ways, everything has changed and nothing has changed. I would be very interested in how that does stand up. I read a book. I'd have to look this one up as well. Neil Frouder, F-R-U-D-E, who I interviewed when I was a journalist and he'd written a book about the future. I reread that a couple of months ago to see how much of it was pertinent. It was sort of 60 to 70% there, not in specific predictions, but in trends and ideas and concepts that were still very much on our agenda. Intimate machines, I think it was cool. Intimate machines, that makes me think of, well, the unintentional time capsule books where there are books that had a profound impact or that resonated at a certain time in life and then going back to those and sometimes they're still incredibly relevant and resonant and then other times it's kind of a, well, that was awkward that that meant something to me. Today's book club meeting is for books you were disappointed to reread. Books that continue to disappoint next time. But it would dreadful first time round, and it's still dreadful second time. Well, I, yeah, I've gone through periods where I, there were certain authors that will remain nameless who I, I don't like their work and I don't know why but I would go on a bender and read everything that they wrote. Just to make sure. It'd be interesting to do kind of an intentional time capsule of just picking a book for like, let's just let's say now and then going back in five years and then in 10 years and then in 15 years, just to kind of see how the relationship to the text changes. Rather than the unintentional or serendipitous but putting some thought like what's a book that you would like to move from place to place and travel with. You know, is it the discovers or. Yeah. And then also it'd be interesting to have people list of the books that they've moved that they haven't yet read and those books have moved. What would you like to do now. Can you play a round of book oracle or we could go to the, the second layer of books because I'm sure we all brought another, like the speed round of the second level so I'm up for either. Let's do an oracle variation and bring second, second layer of books to another book club. Okay. Okay, so have either of you played the book oracle before. I've played variations of it. Yes. Great. So, so the book oracle is simply, you know, using the books that we all have around or that many of us have around us as a way to kind of get ideas inspiration and insight. And so the way it works is that you just simply call to mind a question. Ideally it's a question that is something that you are genuinely curious about, and not necessarily like that type of question. But, and then you go ahead and state the question aloud, and then say a color and a number, and I'm going to turn off my background. And then I will go to the shelf and find a corresponding book with a with the color and then I'll read a passage from the number and we'll see what insights occur from from that. So, Do you have a question in mind Colin. And no, no, if you have one in your brain at the moment say it Paul because I was just kind of ruminating. Here's a once we have a vaccine what's the first thing we could do. What's the most important thing we could do. And a color and a number. I will go with green and 46. Okay. So, green and 46 this might be a bit more in the teal family, but it's from your best year ever with Michael high and 46 46. And it's avoiding the trap of limiting beliefs. Oh, this is interesting. So it's the whole page is about Martin Luther King's speech, where he improvised the section of I have a dream. So, I'm going to go back to the screen and protest work continued in the late 50s and early 60s with sit ins and protests culminating in the events of 1963 that King that April King was arrested in Birmingham for disobeying a ban on demonstrations. When a fire from local ministers, he responded with one of his most important and memorable works. There's from Birmingham jail. Later he led the march on Washington attended by over 200,000 people. It was the 100th anniversary of Lincoln's met Emancipation Proclamation, and King King gave his stirring, I have a dream speech from the Lincoln Memorial. The demonstration is nationwide support for civil rights. President John F Kennedy had introduced the nation's most sweeping civil rights legislation to date, and the march and King's advocacy was instrumental in its passage in 1964. If that wasn't enough time picked King as its person of the year, the Nobel committee made him the youngest ever recipient of the Peace Prize. There was more work to be done, but he'd already turned the world upside down. He was just 53 years old. What was his secret. King's critics in Birmingham thought his actions were unwise and on time that they violated common sense, but unlike King these ministers were laboring under a limiting belief. They held an idea about a world that limited their range of possibilities. Instead of seeing King's actions as paving the way for change, they saw them as counter. King's actions would cause them to lose ground. It's just one of a billion of examples in common sense is simply another way of saying widely held misunderstanding. So any thoughts or insights that come to mind about an important thing to be done after the pandemic. The sentence that stood out for me personally, while it's actually on my head is that one now which I'm going to put in the chat which is, and I heard the one that stood out as you was speaking was turn the world upside down. Yeah. It's a nice fuzzy one because we can make whatever meaning with it personally we'd like for about I think that's that's the one to try and turn the world upside down and think well actually what does your world want to be like when we can when we have the option to do all the things that we can do. What are you how are you going to take those choices. Yes. Yeah, and I think in some ways the well in many ways that make as exposed how terrible so many aspects of what was considered normal was and are so that yeah that turn that world upside down and figure out ways to change it for the better. It strikes me that the world is more jumbled and mixed up than it was. So if there's a time scale for turning it upside down, some of the upside downing has already begun. And maybe a few more nudges and bushes would continue that. That's a for a cool process. It's a good time for reflection and reevaluation and making fresh choices, because the old ones were removed. And they might now be put back on the table with a vaccine. Yeah, let's just go back to how it all was, which would seem to miss some of the opportunity that's been presented. Yeah. The world suddenly realized that it was improvising. Always had been and always will be a lot of people haven't noticed it and come to their attention as you might say Colin. And then it did come to their attention because it was very apparent that fans changed. No longer served. Did you have a question. I really don't have one. Yeah, let's see what's my question. I guess to build on the to build on the to frame Colin, the inspired by Collins questions. What is what's important now. Can you repeat that as it froze. Yeah. I think it's an important thing to focus on now, and now being like the next three months for you. Yeah, for me. Okay, color and yellow, and then 130 yellow and 130 seven on 37. I mean, with all those volumes in your library one would hope. Oh, that's funny, negotiating for dummies, negotiations for dummies. Yeah, there's a fine series of books for which I have learned many a thing. And the page numbers are very large. I'm going to just read anything from here. Yeah, you can read anything on the page that seems relevant. Okay, I'm going to read a paragraph under the subheading that's in a box on the page. And the subheading is how big is how big is your pocket, how big is your pocket. I could say that I always eliminated the confusions that occur when vague terms are used. The truth is that people don't always have time to do so. Sometimes you just want to get out of a conversational situation. And the last thing you want to do is prolong things by making absolutely sure that you have all the details correct. Other times being specific just doesn't seem that important. So what what comes to mind is that I can have a challenge that I'm challenged by explaining to some people what I do, because I do a lot of things and to some people, they seem to lack cohesion or it doesn't, they don't seem to relate but I find that I can find relationships between just about anything and put together kind of a cohesive story and so what I've, what I've been thinking about lately with that is when the questions then when people ask for clarification about what I do or that something doesn't make sense. It helps me understand their uncertainty. So what are the things that I need to make clear about it that's relevant to what they, you know, so what, how can I make my vagueness specific to in a way that will make sense to them. So, because some doing work that I find interesting rewarding and that makes a better place isn't, isn't, it's too vague. So, yeah. Okay, thank you. Yeah. Should we close with just a quick round of good use of a button. Yeah, that's great. And at least I'll have two to go away with. Yeah. My good use leave a pair of buttons but in the world of zoom if you don't have the fun filters you can use them to make googly eyes. I got like that with the buttons. We're allowed a pair of them. And the one that came straight to mind Paul was if it has some asymmetry as in top and bottom asymmetry. If you're having. If you can't make a decision, then you can basically use it as a coin and go right okay I'll do that side and that's my decision. Nice button decision making button decision making, I think you're onto a book. Random objects to help me live in the 21st century. That sounds like your museum of the extra ordinary ordinary. Yeah. Yes. I would say I would use it as something to balance on my head to maintain an upright posture when I'm doing too much stooping in the zoom. And no one if you if you keep your head upright enough no one could actually see the button. That will be a mystery for them all. Paul's posture was amazing. How does he how does he do that? Was that a bustle on his head or was that a zoom background? I'm going to end the recording.