 Hey, welcome to the Alpha Rising podcast. We are here with Sheila Ronning, the founder and CEO of Women in the Boardroom. This is a really hot topic these days. Thank you for being here. Well, thank you for having me. So speaking of hot topics, let's just talk big picture of the world these days because for so many years it's been there are no women on the boardroom, right? You know, there's no female CEOs of the S&P 500. What, maybe there's like 28 or something now? Right. Okay, so we got a problem. And now all of a sudden I feel like women are speaking from Hollywood to Silicon Valley, man, they're everywhere. Is it making a difference? Oh yeah, absolutely. Right, I mean, anytime there's that conversation happening, it's a good thing. And you know, I just feel that women are realizing, wow, we really need to stand up and speak up now. So that's good. Are men listening or are we just talking to each other saying empower yourself, kid? You know, I do think that men are listening and I think that the majority of men have always been listening. I don't feel that it's a man versus woman issue really. I feel that women need to have the confidence to, you know, there's this study that Harvard had put out a few years ago, I don't know if they necessarily did the study, but they talked about how women feel the need to check 100% of the boxes before they go for something, right? And men don't. I can't remember what the study revealed. It might have been like 60 or 70%, but honestly, I think. Hewlett-Packer, I think, did it internally. 60%. Right, which I actually, I got this. Right, so, you know, women just need to realize that you don't, how is it that you're supposed to check 100% of the box? Right, ever. Right, so, you know, you'll learn how to do it. And so I don't think it's a men versus women thing. I think women need to realize that they're good. They're ready to go. It's a confidence thing, then, isn't it? Yes, yep, absolutely. You're like the test of time, why? Oh, that's a much deeper question. Yeah. Because that's what it comes down to, right? Yeah. Is this conversation that's happening out there translating to the boardroom? You know what it is. So the media and everybody else loves to do just the, you know, the media's not doing the research, but, you know, Catalyst and all these other great organizations that are doing the research are typically only doing the research on the Fortune 500, sometimes the Fortune 1000. So the numbers can look a little dismal, you know, they kind of fluctuate, you know, anywhere from 15 to 20%. But, you know, in all fairness, there really are so few people, women or men, that are even qualified for those boards. And there's not a lot of turnover. So it's important to remember that there's thousands of other public companies that are smaller than the Fortune 500, also privately held boards. And, you know, and that means so, there can be such a variety of different private boards, whether it's, you know, family owned or, you know, private equity or all of these different, and there's some very large, you know, private companies, so we don't want to forget that there's all of these other companies and boards that the research isn't being done on. And really, and advisory boards as well, there's, you know, and those aren't just for startups. You know, Wells Fargo has an advisory board or Walmart has an advisory board and they pay. Two, wow. Yeah. See, I need one of these, I need one of these seats. Do all these organizations, all these seats come through your organization? Available seats, I should say. Well, no, but I wish they did. Yeah, okay. There's no one place that will be informed of all the board openings. And, you know, so we're not a search firm. We're not, you know, a listserv or a job board. We're working with women one-on-one to prepare them to get to take their seat at the table. So let's take a step back a little. So tell us how this whole thing came about because you just told me that you started this 15 years ago. Yep. 15 years ago. I know. People must have looked at you and crossed their eyes. Like, what are you doing? Well, it was, I mean, okay, so how I started it, I became an entrepreneur over 20 years ago and doing sales marketing and PR consulting. And I was in the Twin Cities at the time and back in the late 90s, you always had to be a member of something to be able to go and network there. And I really was at a point where I just needed to find more people to network with to sell my consulting services. And even though the Twin Cities is a smaller market, it's very spread out. And they had a lot of chambers of commerce. And one, I couldn't afford at that time to go and join, I mean, there's like 10 or 15 different chambers. I couldn't afford to join all of them. And I certainly didn't have the time to go drive around to every single networking event. So I ended up creating my own business to business networking event there that became extremely popular. We'd had five times a year, like 700 people there. Yeah, it was great. And my mentor had said to me, oh my gosh, you're so good at getting people in the room. And, you know, I am excited. How did you get them in the room though? You know, oh my gosh, it was before email. I mean, literally. So you had flyers on telecom poles. I faxed, I faxed, I faxed them a flyer one by one. Come to my event? Until, yes, until I found this great software that was like called WinFax. I tell you about it. So I'm like, you know, faxing people in the middle of the night and it rings into their home line. They were not happy with me. But yeah, I mean, seriously, and then. And what, you offered free drinks and they came? Well, no, I wasn't even offering, I was offering free appetizers, a cash bar, and you know, it was like a big party. And people came. And people loved it. Oh yeah, no, it was great. And it was very strict about who could attend. So that is why it was a very high caliber networking event. And you know, you always have those people that come in. It was like a little mini trade show. You know, I always have those people that come in and grab all the pens or all the chocolates. Right? We didn't like them. But anyway, so my mentors said, oh my gosh, you're really good at getting people in the room. I'd love it if you would start an event that helped women get onto corporate boards. And I'm like, what are you talking about? I did not know what that meant. Obviously learned very quickly. So I'm like, sure, all right, we'll add that event onto all the other events we're doing. So started that event. And after a few years, she said, you now should take this to other cities because we're getting like 600 women in the room. And I'm like, what do you mean, take it to other cities? I don't know, you know. How did you then? Yeah, and well, in 2006, started taking it to Chicago. And then by 2010, we were in 15 cities with it nationwide. Wow. Yeah, so we grew fast and it was a lot of work. And we had like 15,000 people had attended. And then the financial crisis hit and wiped that out. I moved to New York, you know, during that time. And, you know, it wasn't keeping my eye on the ball. I didn't realize that the, you know, it took a few years for it to hit us, but then it was like our sponsorships dried up. Women had to stay at their desk and head down and work instead of going to an event. And, but also, you know, I just didn't feel like we were really making, you know, we weren't helping. We weren't moving the needle. And although people would say, oh my gosh, this event is great. I've met so many people. I'm getting on boards and, you know, I couldn't, I wasn't, I didn't feel comfortable taking that stat because I knew you didn't go to an event and get onto a board. Right. Plus I had a lot of, you know, the senior level executive women come up to me saying, well, this is really a great event. But I need more. I need more help. And I wasn't sure what I could offer at that time, but when, when everything collapsed, right, with the financial crisis, I said, well, you know what, I think I'm going to just, I'm going to revamp it into a membership organization and work one-on-one with these women and have them pay an annual membership fee. And, and, you know, cross my fingers and hope it, hope it works out. Right. Exactly. Well, you know, we first year, you know, I can't remember how many members, you know, it's like 20 or 30 or 40, but then it just kept, you know, doubling and doubling and doubling. So we, you know, really were all about helping that woman who was aspiring to get onto her first board when I rolled out the membership program. But now we have over 40% of our members who are serving on corporate boards. I mean, you were at our annual board assembly event last month, but we really are working with them one-on-one. It's not, there's no cookie cutter approach. It's very hands-on working with them on the, you know, board portfolio that they need that really will showcase their, you know, their achievements and the impact. What does that mean? What does that, like if you were to work with me, what are we working on? What would be a board bio and a professional profile? So they're- So like a resume? Well, they're different from a resume and also a marketing bio that you, you know, would have on your website. It would more so be that it's really, you know, it's not this chronological, I was, you know, what ABC company and because it really would focus on your achievements and the impact that you've had. That's, you know, the kind of things that boards need to see when they're looking at you. But that isn't even the most important part. The most important part is really that elevator pitch and really knowing, you know, what you're qualified for, what you bring to the table and being able to clearly articulate that, you know, if you're getting in on the first floor and you have to, you get off on the 15th, you really need to make sure that you're saying what you convert to the table and then that works. So you mentioned the event and I had the pleasure of being a spy in the room and I got to watch and the way it works is it's like speed dating. Yes. Yep. That everyone was broken out into these little rooms and basically there was a moderator and everyone went around a room and they gave their elevator pitch. Right. And I was blown away at how well-prepared people were and they had their elevator pitch down and it was like all the keywords, supply chain expert, international, the tax expert, you know, like you name it, they knew. So that's the kind of training then that you're giving them. Yep, right. And I, you know, I make sure they're ready for that event because it's, you know, they're, not only are they, it's great to be meeting all the other VIP members, you know, from all over. I mean, you know, we had- Across the country. Yeah, across the country. I mean, we, you know, we do have an international footprint as well. It always needs to be bigger because, you know, our program doesn't have borders, right? What we're doing. So it can help, I mean, we, you know, have people in London, Italy and, you know, Asia. So I mean, they're everywhere. But yeah, for that event, we get them in typically just, you know, from the States, but, you know, LA and Seattle, everywhere. But yeah, they're, you know, we have a pre-session to make sure everybody's ready to go. And, you know, I'm working with pretty much every one of them, one-on-one with their elevator pitch. Really? Yep. And how do you know then what these boards want to hear? Like, how have you over the years come up with all the key words that these new, that these boards are looking for? You know, I mean, 24-7, right? And we, even though we're not a search firm, because I've been doing this for so long and I have this huge network of people who are serving on boards, they will send us their board openings because they know we have these amazing candidates that are, you know, great for their board. So when we get those board openings in, I'm, so it kind of goes back to, you know, are we making progress? Yeah. What I see is different from what is reported in the media because, oh my gosh, I mean, just over the last few years, we've received like 140 different board seat openings, which is amazing. Amazing. Yeah. And so I feel like I have a really good, you know, sense of what is actually happening or what boards are looking for. It's no longer that, you know, every single time they have a board opening, they want a financial expert. And granted, that is a seat that, you know, is needed to fill in at the table. They, you know, for the audit committee. But they're not just looking for financial experts. You know, they are, you know, looking for digital disruptors, you know, marketing experts, social media, you name it. I mean, we really have seen all across the board of, you know, operational, you know, expertise, technology. I mean, this goes on and on. So that's why I'm able to help, you know, our members with their elevator pitch because I know what those boards are looking for. The pitches were mind blowing. Like I was blown away. I couldn't believe I was sitting next to that many amazing women. Yeah. Well, that's funny, isn't it? Because it's always like, oh, we can't find the women. I'm like, yeah, you can. Yeah, you can. Yeah, right here. Okay, so now are you seeing then, so they're coming to you, they're coming to you then, because they specifically now want women in the room. Well, right. But they should be coming to us with all board openings because, you know, women are people too. Yeah, right. So, I mean, don't just come to us just because you need to check a box. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. And are you seeing that? Yes, you are. Absolutely, yes. So that's encouraging. So out of the 140 board openings that we've received, only like 10% of them are from search firms, which is interesting. So it's actually the board members reaching out to us. And yeah, absolutely. I mean, we are called women in the boardroom, so they know we have women, although we're doing such a great job, now we have a lot of men calling us to say, hey, can you help us? Which is, you know, a sign that we're doing good work. Sure is. That what we're doing is working. But yeah, so I would say, you know, it's obviously in the back of their mind that they're wanting to have some really great women on their board, but not every single one of them say, oh no, in fact, I know because I wouldn't, you know, if you follow up with the board openings and who they selected, there's, they have definitely at times selected men. So no, they're not specifically just looking for women. Who are these women pitching to when they walk into these breakout rooms, just so people understand, because they're not pitching to me, and they're not pitching to your moderator. Oh, right, you mean at the annual board assembly? Yeah, so they give their elevator pitch, they're just giving it to each other so that if I'm out and I hear a need, I'm helping you? Well, you know, if you don't ask, you don't get, right? So you have to work your network. And what I have found, well, first of all, I always make, you know, a very blanket statement saying, if you are not a woman who helps other women, you're not welcome here. Oh, amen, right? So they better be helping each other and they are helping each other. And so it's really, we're not, you know, industry specific and they're not all competing with one another. At the end of the day, even if Sally and Joan both are looking for the same type of board and they both have the same skill set, you know, the board interview process is very long and it's, you know, they're wanting to make sure that they find not only that right skill set, but they need to have that chemistry, you know, and that they're able to get along. So, you know, it should not ever be seen as a competitive, you know, oh my gosh, there's only room for one or, you know, we both fit that box. It's going to come down to their character and personality as well. It's become a very important position these days. I mean, you know, very prestigious. Yes, absolutely. Sarbanes oxley, I think was really the beginning of it. All of a sudden now you're liable. Sitting in this little breakout room, there was a woman who was on international boards and she, I think, said she didn't do German boards because you go to prison if you mess up. Oh yeah, you definitely want to make sure that when you're serving on boards, you know, in other countries that you definitely check out what. But I'm thinking there should be almost that same kind of liability here in the States. Oh yeah. Right. I mean, we need more of that. So we need more smart, solid people. Well, I mean, some people have gone too. That's fair enough. Fair enough. I mean, it's not like they're just getting away with it. Should there be a 50-50 mandate? 50% men and women in boards? No, I don't think so. I mean, I don't think that the US will ever have one. I definitely think that the right person should be on the board. I think a smart board will have a matrix of, okay, what do, you know, what are the skill sets that we need on this board and where are we checking the box now? But then also to have the diversity of thought in there, of gender, race, age, even geographical. I mean, there's many different things that they should be looking at to fill out that board. There are still boards. We have a service here called BoardX that does compile so much data. Yes, Love BoardX, yes. Okay, and so apparently there's a few boards that still have no women. And one or two of those companies are actually cosmetic companies. Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? I mean, know who your customers are and how you need to have board members that look, think, act like your customers. Right. I mean, their duty is to the stakeholders, first and foremost. Which almost makes you wonder why the shareholders don't speak up and say, what the heck? Well, they are. Are they starting to? Well, I mean, activism, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and it's so funny. We had a program years ago on activism and what my whole goal with the event was to inform and to educate what it meant. And this is like, I don't know, five years ago. You know, and it made it very clear that we were not going, we're not saying that activism is good or activism is bad. It was definitely more of an educational one. But now to even see where activism has come, I feel like it's not such a negative, bad, you know, it's not portrayed as such a negative, bad thing anymore. Because it's almost like- I'm sure a lot of people disagree with me. Right, as we have an interview with Bill Ackman going on today. Yes, yeah, but he's like, cool, cool, cool. Right, but there is something we said about an outside set of eyes, right? Yes. Someone looking from the outside in. Sometimes you get too caught up in things. Yeah, absolutely. But isn't that the role of the board? And there's that. Okay, so there were men at the event. Yes. Why? Well, I mean, you know, and I always make sure that, you know, I always say all the time, I'm like, listen, we are women in the boardroom, but that doesn't mean we're anti-men. We love men. We want men there. They're the ones serving on the boards. We're not about guilting and shaming. That is not going to get us into the boardroom. Are they there to get board seats or dates? Well, they are, they are, well, I mean, they're there because for a variety of reasons. They might be looking for board members. They might, you know, be happy to be in a room full of amazing high-level executive women, right? It's like highclassmatch.com. Well, we don't want to promote it like that, of course, but I'm sure that there's, you know, there's things happening, I don't know, but so they're there because they're supporting, they're wanting to network and seek, you know, some really good top talent. You know, Steven Kaddabi, he's the managing partner, Dorsey Whitney, he goes every year, he's fantastic, and he doesn't serve on a corporate board, but guess what? He has clients that need board members. And he actually was really great in connecting two of our VIP members from that event. Like he emailed me after, he said, oh, hey, I connected so-and-so with this public board and this one with the private board. That's what it's all about. You know, it's interesting because that networking in and of itself is a skill, isn't it? Yes. And it's a skill that so many people lack. Too badly. Too badly. Yeah. How do you get better at that? Well, it's work. It's work. I mean, you know, it doesn't have anything to do with you being an extrovert or an introvert. It is, you know, I always say women are really great networkers. We're just not so great at using our network. So I have a very structured networking process that I've created over the years that, you know, really having them think about who are those influencers and connectors in their life. Maybe it's people that they need to re-engage with. I mean, how many times have you known Joe for 15, 20 years and you haven't talked to him in five? So it's really like, I'm helping them think of those people, they don't all have to be serving on boards to go on this list. Cause like a Steven, he doesn't, you know, Steven Gadavi doesn't serve on a board, but he should be on someone's list. So you're saying literally make a list. Yep. Go through your contacts. Figure out who actually can connect you to somebody, somebody, somebody. Isn't that like kind of like LinkedIn? Yeah, but you don't, you know, the thing is that we all have so many LinkedIn contacts. I know, I know. So it's, I'm always saying, no, you've got to have it on this one spreadsheet or one piece of paper or whatever so that you can eyeball it really quick. And you can't, you know, you have to, not only is it who are you reaching out to and that elevator pitch and when are you reaching out to them, but you need to maintain that relationship. And you can't do that when they're in length, you know, they're mixed in with 10,000 other people. So it needs to be something where you're, you know, you're able to maintain that relationship. And also you don't want it to be a me, me, me thing either. Right? And it's all about timing. I know. So what, so if I'm sitting home and I say I really want to be a board member someday, what are the qualifications that you think people need to be a successful board member? Well, like I mentioned earlier, we're seeing everything. I know. You know, for us, what we're doing, you know, in order for someone to be a VIP member of ours, they do have to check some boxes. And I mean, you have to have, you know, P&L experience. You know, you need to know how to read a P&L statement. Right? And so you need to have, you know, been in charge of a significant budget, you know, manage or oversee people or you are, you know, in charge of, you know, the strategy or investments for a company. That's how we're really looking at that. Then there's other little nuances, right? I mean, like a general counsel, you know, another really great candidate for a board. There could be, you know, entrepreneurs, certainly, but you know, at the end of the day, it's always gonna be, you need to be then realistic about what you're qualified for. It's still, I still feel like so many people think it's who you know. Well, when it comes down to it, it's all about networking, yes. And then therefore it's who you know. Yeah, or yeah, and you know, it's not just as easy as that though. It's not like on the golf course, who you know. It's funny that you bring up the golf course because I, from the structured networking process that I created, I ended up creating our matchmaking program. And that's because these women have such amazing board connections that maybe they are not interested in serving on that board. Maybe they're not qualified for it. But again, sister's helping sisters, right? They share those companies where they have board connections. And then it's, you know, it's a very, you know, hands-on program. So it's not, we're not just Wait, but it's not matchmaking like relationships. You're not putting couples together when you say matchmaking. You gotta get away from the dating thing, right? So no, it is all about connecting these women with the boards that they are interested in and qualified for through a very structured program. So, you know, if Sue is interested in ABC company and Sally, you know, is the VIP connector, you know, they, Susan. Let's make a connection. Yeah, exactly. Right. And then Sally will then introduce Sue to Bob. I love that. What do you want to see change? Like what, if you could, you know, tell women to get off their butts and do something, what would it be? Oh, gosh. I mean, one. List that long that you. Yeah, I mean, there's, well, and you know, the thing is too is that obviously not every woman is the same. So I don't want to just make it seem like, you know, this is everybody, but it's really, I mean, you have to show up, you have to do the work. You have to ask, you know, you don't ask, you don't get, right? I mean, so there's work to be done. You can't just, you know, sign up and, you know, like in specifically I'm talking about for our membership, the women who are working it, who are, and I'm always like just, if you don't have five hours a month to dedicate to this, which by the way is not a lot of time. It's not. Don't do it, right? But you can't just pay the membership being like, oh, I'm going to get on a board or I'm going to wait for all those great board openings she gets because those board openings, they're icing on the cake. There's no easy road to the boardroom. Obviously, otherwise we wouldn't be here. Right, yep. So what is membership at now? Well, we are, I mean, depending, we have, you know, a large, we have many different levels, right? So I mean, we have like, you know, 600 paid memberships and then our VIP members are, you know, anywhere from, you know, 250 to 350 any given month. Wow, that's a lot of women. Yeah. And then you have these, you have coaches, I saw on the website. So you have coaches like yourself, I guess, then, that help with the elevator pitch and all that. And I don't consider myself a coach, you know, but I do coach them, right? But no, I do have some amazing executive coaches who are helping them with those board documents. That's just not something I wish to spend my time on. And then I'm, yeah. You shouldn't have to. I mean, you have stuff. Exactly, so they're working with the board documents and then I'm really, and they're also, you know, talking to them about the elevator pitch and networking too, but for the most part. Are the events then like the creme de la creme of what you do? No, no. I mean, we used to be that big event company, but remember, you don't go on an event and get on a board. So we really are not doing that many events anymore. And, you know, because we have members everywhere and if we're not doing events in LA, well, first of all, we don't even get the VIP members in New York to come to the events we have in New York, right? We all need another event to go to, like we need another hole in our head, right? So we have a lot of great webinars that are all recorded and I just say, you know, hey, it's on demand. It's like, I love audio books, right? These webinars are like in audio books. When you say network then, I'm thinking network means I gotta get out of the house more and show up at stuff. That's not what you mean then. No, I mean, it can be done on the phone. You know, there's many different ways to network and it's not about going out and meeting 15 new people a month, by the way. It's working their current network and the network of people that they really should be re-engaging with. I think that is like such an untapped skill and topic that needs to be talked about more. People throw the word networking around all the time. I know and that's the thing is I always say, I wish I could change what we're doing because network is such a bad icky word to people, right? And it's not, you know, it's really that relationship building and listen, we know that it's all about networking. We know that less than 15% of all boards these are being filled by a search firm. And even when the board retains a search firm, the first thing they do is turn around to the guys and go, who do you know? Can I, before I let you go, can I ask, do you think that will change because I'm gonna say this politely, most boardrooms are filled with older men. When those older men retire or die. Okay, I was gonna, I was gonna be polite, but or die because they're gonna die. Right. Some of them probably sitting at the boardroom table. Sorry, that was. But will that then open the doors to so many more female positions or do you think it's going to be the same thing where they're gonna turn to their buddy and say, who else, who else can we get on the golf team? You know, I think it's always going to be, who do we know? So you have to be in that circle of who they know. You have to be letting people know what your value at is to the board. And yes, you have to be working your network. So I don't think it's going to change how they're finding board members. I really don't. But women just need to make sure they're included in. It's a great point. It is a great point. Cause it's just human nature to say, well, who do you know? And I trust you because you recommend them. We all do business with people we like. We all are with people that, I mean, they're sitting around that table and they're having some pretty intense discussions. They're wanting to make sure that, you know, they're like, oh my God, who invited him? Right? Who brought this guy? Yeah. What's the website? Womenintheboardroom.com. You are awesome. And I hope everyone goes and watches the webinars. And like, we do have 50, 50 someday in the boardroom. Yeah, I know. I can't wait to start an organization called Men in the Boardroom. Love that. Thank you Sheila. Thank you.