 Welcome to the 7th meeting of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Relations Committee in session 5. I would like to remind members and the public to turn off mobile devices and any members using electronic devices to access committee papers. Can you please ensure that they are turned to silent? No apologies have been received. Our first item of business today is a decision to take agenda item 3, consideration of evidence heard in private. Are members agreed? We agree. Yr drwy gweithio cerdd bynnag ychydig yn sefyllfa â'r cerdd bynu ac arioliol. Mor pa mor lle, mynd i ddwy yn rhyw blynedd â'r welmu mwy o'r Cyfrifysgol yn yr elef yn clynig. Peidio gweld yn gwneud eu rhwng ond i gyd-doedd y gweithiol, Lord Hall of Birkenhead, director general o PBC, Donald MacKinnon, director of BBC Scotland ac Ken McQuitray, director of nations and regions at the BBC. I would like to invite Lord Hall to make an opening statement. Thank you very much indeed, convene, and thank you for the invitation to come here today, but also the way that you have been content to move the date. I think, as you can see from yesterday's announcement, I really did want to come when we had some very concrete things to say, but thank you for your patience on that. When I came last time to your predecessor committee, I stressed things that we were looking at from the BBC, which were around rebalancing provision of news, improving a portrayal, growing the spend in Scotland for the nation overall, but also for Scotland, the importance of partnerships, and also devolving more decision-making to Scotland. I think yesterday, I hope yesterday, when we were able to announce the results of our thinking, we all felt this was a very big day for the BBC in Scotland. Let me just remind you of the context, you'll know it, but I'll remind you that the BBC is having to make considerable savings, £800 million over the first five years of the new charter, a licence fee which is flat in real times in terms. Nonetheless, we were able to make the largest investment in, well, some decades in BBC Scotland, £40 million, which I think will transform our offer from BBC Scotland, the heart of our thinking was our audiences and giving our audiences choice and ensuring that they can have quality. Two big things, a channel for Scotland, £19 million of new money, £30 million in total, which is comparable, like for like, content spend, not overall costs, but content spend with BBC Four. The details are to be worked out by Denalda and her team here. I think it's a really exciting creative proposition with a nine o'clock news at the core and I believe giving viewers in Scotland a real choice, as indeed they have choice in radio. Spending on news within that will increase to over £7 million a year and that's going to benefit not just the new nine o'clock news, but also reporting in Scotland, Alba and Radio Nangale. Because of this, we are also increasing our investment in Alba, both with weekend news which when I went to Stornoway a few months ago was clearly something that was needed. Also giving Alba and BBC Scotland a new channel a chance to co-commission, but we're also confirming an extra £1.2 million of costs that we're taking on, which should free up money for Alba overall. In all, this is 18 new jobs and if you add the 20 we're also committing to with our local democracy proposals, 100 jobs in total, that's the biggest investment I think in the, if I can call it news and industry for a considerable amount of time when others are cutting back, we're investing as we should be. The second thing is we are sustaining an extra £20 million a year investment in network production here. If we compare the base figure of 15-16 when I think we took evidence before from Anne Bullford and others about this, we spent £65 million in the year. We are now committing to an extra £20 million that should take us this year to over 90 million in Scotland for the network and in 1920 that year just under 90 million. It'll go up and down a little bit according to commissions, but that commitment is there. This is the result of changes we've made. We've said we would make and we are making. Commissioners now in Scotland for comedy, for science, for children. We'll be shortly announcing the drama commissioner too. We've created a drama development fund. A few weeks ago we launched a writer's room for Scotland. That's all what's helping to lift the creativity of BBC Scotland and Scotland broadly on the networks. I think it's a great boat of confidence in the creativity of Scotland. We also believe this is going some way towards increasing the amount of licence fees spent in Scotland versus what is actually raised here. Again, I know that's something the committee takes a great deal of interest in. In conclusion, yesterday was not about saying we've reached some sort of destination, but I think we have laid. I hope we have laid the foundations for an ambitious future. Yesterday was a declaration of intent to significantly increase our support for the Scottish creative economy to widen opportunities for production in-house, but also with Indies as well. But most important of all, to serve audiences by providing them with more programmes of quality from Scotland about Scotland and to the network and also giving them greater choice. Thank you very much for allowing me to make those few words. Thank you very much, Lord Hall. I think you'll have seen from the response to the announcement this week that there is a lot of positivity in response in this Parliament, particularly because there was cross-party support for the proposal almost 10 years ago now of a Scottish digital network. Obviously, the new jobs will be very welcome as well. You'll be aware that one of the criticisms that has been made or perhaps not criticisms but queries is that the Scottish digital channel proposed 10 years ago was costed at £75 million and this new channel will have £30 million of money, which isn't all new. I wondered whether you could tell us, is that a starting point to expect that to increase? Do you think that you'll be able to deliver the services for that? I can't compare with the proposal that was put forward a decade ago because I don't quite know how the numbers were put together. I can confirm that there are no hidden overheads in this. The £30 million that we're talking about is in crude terms cash to spend on the channel. If you look at a BBC4 comparison, then there are other things we lay into it, which are not the cash you can spend on content. This is absolutely cash we can spend on content. We've looked at an outline. Donald has done an outline for what the channel will look like and 60% of the output will be new commissions, which I think is a really very, very good start. But as you're sort of saying, I want now for Donald and the team to take this exciting moment when to create a new channel and let's see how it goes in its first year. Let's see how it goes in the second year. What happens thereafter? Let's see. If we can, at some point, win more moneys for the BBC by proving that we're giving good services, then I would love to see more money going into that channel. But the aim now is to launch it. I don't know whether the convener, Donalda, might want to say a few things about the channel. Perhaps in your comments you could perhaps tell us if there's going to be a head of channel, a director of the channel. So, to answer that question first, yes, there will be leadership around this new service, but it will form part of a wider plan that I have, which I haven't announced yet, so I probably wouldn't be prepared to announce it here today, but rest assured, yes, of course, there will be appropriate leadership around this channel. But just to echo what Tony said, this is not a like-for-like comparison with what the Broadcasting Commission set out to achieve with our digital network. As Tony said, we are starting with a cash content spend, a hypothecated £30 million, no overhead in that. Also what we would hope to do is to leverage our economies of scale across the BBC. We want to co-commission, we also want to take advantage where we can of potentially similar casting, also working with our network colleagues, and indeed others across nations and regions, but also with other broadcasters, hopefully across Europe and why not the world. That's all very interesting. Do you expect to sell original programming around the world? I'm really ambitious for that, convener. I do think that what we have here in Scotland is quite unique, not just in terms of what we can produce from here, our unique selling point is our Scottish net, I've always said that, but we also, I believe, have one of the best creative communities in the world. I think that we have the capacity and the capability to produce fantastic content, that should and can very easily sell. I've already been in conversation with Tim Davies, the director of BBC Worldwide, we're working on some plans together, I would hope to see that these come to fruition over the next few years. To go back to the funding, £30 million, you spend £60 million, for example, commissioning match of the day rights, so £30 million, it doesn't go that far, in terms of you quite rightly referred to the committee's interest in the proportion of the licence fee that's spent in Scotland now. In your good year, it's currently not a great year at 55 per cent, but in your good year, I think it was 2014, you were spending about 63 per cent. I understand that, with this new money, you're up to 67 per cent. That's still a long way behind, both Northern Ireland at 75 and Wales at 95. Are we going to get to a position where Scotland is a parity with those other nations in the UK? You're right to say, we've taken not a good year, 15-16, if you take it the previous year, of course, that was boosted by money we put in both for the games and also for the referendum, so again, it's an artificial year. What I want to do is to take a base where we can absolutely determine the 20 million and you can see that and we're holding ourselves to account for that, which gets us a 68 per cent from a figure of 55 per cent, which I know you've dwelt on a lot before. We started. If you add to the 68 per cent another sum, which is for distribution, in other words, I think we should be including in these figures the amount we pay over 30 million to distribute our programmes around Scotland. You get to another 11 per cent on that, which gets you to a figure of about 79 per cent. Nonetheless, you're right. Compare the 68 per cent on content versus Northern Ireland, which is about 74 per cent. We're moving and we're shifting and I think the challenge now to BBC Scotland, to BBC ourselves is to see whether in terms of the network spending we can do more than we're currently committing to do and that depends on good ideas, that depends on winning commissions. We're open for making sure that's why we've got the commissioners based here to make sure we can get as good stuff on the network as we can. This is not a fix. As I said at the beginning, this is very much a starting point. There might also be an opportunity to extend the amount that we spend on network radio, for example, from Scotland and indeed some of our digital services. I know that a lot of members want to come in specifically on the new channel, but this is a wider evidence session about the charter renewal, so what we're going to do is take questions on the new channel for part of our evidence session and then move on to other topics. I'll bring in Lewis MacDonald first. Thank you very much. Clearly, as the convener has said, 80 new jobs for journalists and substantial new investment is clearly very welcome. What I'd like to understand is how that's going to operate in relation to Scotland as a whole, because clearly there's always a risk with the creation of any new investment that it becomes a centralised, concentrated in a single centre. Of course, there has to be a centre, but I wonder if I can ask you about the regional character of the new channel and how far it will draw from the other production centres in Scotland besides Glasgow in order to ensure that it reflects the country as a whole. I think that your point is well made in terms of the remit to cover the whole of Scotland. We are absolutely conscious of that, and that this investment will be spread across the whole of Scotland. We're very proud of the skills that our factual team have in Aberdeen, for example. The producing outstanding work is work that we really appreciate. That remit to cover the whole of the nation and all the regions of the nations and to ensure that every part of the country benefits from that investment is front and foremost in our minds. I think that we have a real opportunity to do that and, in fact, to strengthen some of our other bases beyond Glasgow, and we most certainly will do that. I think that the opportunity in terms of the investment in the journalists alone offers us that, but also our local democracy, the other 20 journalists whom we will be recruiting absolutely in the situation that they will be spread across the country. That's the essence of that proposal. But, as Kenny said, it is massively important to us to reflect this whole nation. If we make our arguments about out-of-London production, then we have to consider what we're doing in Scotland likewise. That's reassuring. Gareth Macquarie mentioned factual content from Aberdeen. Clearly, also, there's radio, there's news production, there's online content. Presumably, the intention with the new channel is to reinforce those outputs in places like Aberdeen and other centres. I think that there are enormous opportunities here across all our platforms. I said that yesterday, and I think that we will definitely see that happening over the next months and years. Can I ask about the relationship that the director general mentioned in your introduction? The way in which the new channel would allow work with Reporting Scotland, with Alaba, and with Radio Nangail, support and reinforce the work that's done there. Can you perhaps tell us a bit about how that will work? What is the collaboration going to be, particularly, I guess, on news and current affairs, but across the board between the new channel and BBC One Scotland and Alaba and Radio Nangail? I think that, as Donalda has been saying, the possibility here now to collaborate in a direct way, so Alba will get weekend news consistently for the first time is really important. I think for Donalda to come together with the Alba team and say, how can we co-commission between BBC Scotland and BBC Alba? I think that's really important, but I just want to underline under the score something that Donalda said. I think that the BBC is a team and I very much want Donalda to draw on the resources of the whole BBC behind BBC Scotland, the channel and all the things that we do. One of the things which I think is good around this issue of the news and the 9 o'clock news versus Scottish Six and all that sort of stuff is, I know that we can put the entire resources, journalistic editorial resources, global as well as UK behind a news at 9 o'clock for an hour, which I think, talking to the teams yesterday, they can do something which is really new and fresh using all the resources of the BBC, which I think could, I hope, teach us a few lessons to news broadcasters around the world. I'm really excited by that proposition. If I understand that correctly, you're talking about access to international correspondence in a way that it will be more straightforward when that news is the one BBC offering at the moment. I've edited the 6 o'clock news far, far, far too long ago. I know how at that time of night the demands are huge on one network, never mind another one or three or more. Actually at 9 o'clock the entirety of the resources international and national are going to be behind the 9 o'clock news on BBC Scotland. We were talking about this last night after it. We were also saying, you know, what I think success would also be if a team is in PQ. Also saying, you know, we're going to commission something which is entirely off everybody else's agenda but it's for us, you know, and use the correspondence around the world or whatever to do that. And I think that's a really exciting prospect. Excellent, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much for giving Evans today and I too warmly welcome the announcement. Some of us on this committee have been in Parliament since 1999 and finally in 2017 we've got some progress. We've taken some time to get here and hopefully we won't have to wait another 18 years for the next big step forward in terms of BBC Investment Scotland. But it's a warmly welcomed announcement. Can you tell me how you'll be defining success of the new channel because quite clearly people still have the opportunity of watching BBC One Scotland but now the new channel from a couple of years onwards? I mean, I think we need to work out our detail metrics and be clear to the public about those near the time as I'll explain in a moment. I mean, you know, my aim is to ensure that viewership for BBC Scotland, BBC One Scotland grows. That's what we want to do and our satisfaction indices begin to change. It's really hard at the moment to set detail metrics but we will for BBC Scotland because Denal has the enviable job now saying, okay, so what do I want to place? Do I want to do this? Do I want to do that? And so much is going to depend on that construction which creatively has got to be led here in Glasgow sorry, here in Scotland by Denalda. So that's one thing. The second thing in the spirit of honesty we need to also make sure this has a good EPG position so it's as high up as we can make it in the EPG. That means a number of discussions now have announced this with partners you know with preview with Sky etc to try to raise that EPG position I'm so sorry the electronic program guide, the number you are when you turn to preview or you turn to Sky that kind of also matters and what we want to do is to get this as high up as we can. It may interest the committee, I don't know but this is something which the digital economy bill goes through the lords at the moment prominence I think is a really important issue for public service channels there are amendments going down in the lords whatever backing you can give to the notion that public service broadcasters should get real prominence in this new world that we are entering in that would be most welcome I think it's a really important issue because we can do great content we can do great children's services but you also want to make sure our viewers can get to them easily and that's not always the case in terms of the debate over the Scottish sex which is one of the issues that's been bubbling raised since 1999 just about people will still have the opportunity of watching BBC One Scotland as well as the new channels I said before are you saying that a Scottish Six is mutually exclusive in terms of the new channel? Yes, because I think we've got and we've been going through these the thinking about this thoroughly over the last few months you see what we've got at 6 o'clock is a 6 o'clock news from London where the audience is growing a reporting Scotland is the most watched news programme in Scotland and what we want to offer is choice you can watch it as it is at the moment on BBC One Scotland or you can go and see something which is wholly Scottish with a Scottish perspective at 9 o'clock also I don't want to let off the journalism from London from their duty to make sure that they are reporting significant stories properly and carefully and this is a fourth bridge repainting issue we've just got to keep at that to make sure that reporting what's going on in Scotland properly and when big issues affect the whole of the UK those again bring a Scottish perspective and I think that's an area we just have to keep pressure Ken I know bullies in this very strongly we've just got to keep that pressure up I think the next round of question I've been commissioning of programmes but I think that if you want to attract viewers alongside the 9 o'clock news and if I can see some members and if we're going to get to the next round of questioning we'll need to make it the questions and answers as brief as possible on the new channel Jackson Carlaw First of all I'll say that in an era where every cliffhanger in River City and EastEnders has trailed on the press for about six months in advance you did a remarkable job keeping this completely secret until yesterday I'm pleased to hear what you say about new leadership but I can see it's all the potential candidates ranged behind you there Can I start off in the following on the Scottish Six I welcome what you've said about that I had no objection in principle but burned in my memory is the 60 minutes experience of a format that did huge reputational damage to BBC journalism a generation ago but I'm interested obviously a lot of pilots we know were commissioned and is the 9 o'clock news hour going to be grown from the pilots that you have undertaken or is the format for that going to be completely something that's yet to evolve and can you please reassure me that on a lean news day it won't be six MSPs on so far's waffling for 20 minutes As you've raised something which is not often raised I better confess to you now I was one of the editors on 60 minutes Ah I don't say that to many people but I'll say to you and that is also seared across my mind the tea time television is a delicate balance and you've absolutely got to get it right looking at the pilots that were done by the teams in PQ and they put a lot of energy into it they really really did well there was one which I particularly liked on the second round of pilots which was an hour and it ended with very very good but look I'm saying to Denalda and Gary and all the team in PQ now go play you think of what's going to really be compelling for viewers here and there are very rare chances you have to kind of reinvent the way we see broadcast news but this could be one of them What I can genuinely say is that these pilots have definitely informed how we will go about producing this news out Can I ask a question about the opt-outs currently on BBC2 because BBC Scotland opt-outs and BBC2 have very often been used to premiere key new commissioned BBC content the success of which having then been judged has very often then led to it being networked across the whole of the UK quite often on BBC1 but the opportunity to pilot that to a whole audience has been used through the mechanism of an opt-out in BBC2 and I just wonder I know it won't be your intention but how will you ensure that UK network commissioning of BBC Scotland of what has proved sometimes to be some outstanding both drama and documentary won't be prejudiced by removing the BBC2 opt-out I mean Denalda I'm sure you want to say to me I just want to say one thing I think with BBC Scotland and the extra money we're putting in and this is about quality programming my hope is and one of my tests will be started on BBC Scotland a bit like the Grand Tour of the Highlands which then ends up on BBC2 or BBC1 for the whole of the UK because I want the whole of the UK to see the creativity and the programming that is coming from Scotland but Denalda you probably want to Yes absolutely so I think that opportunity is actually strengthened by us having this additional investment I think what we will commission for BBC Scotland will inevitably find its way onto the networks maybe not all of it but we will see commissions such as as Tony Mettini, the Grand Tour of the Scottish Highlands translating over on to network and many other field of blood for example loads of great comedy whether Scots scored still to make that leap but two doors down most recent example we would expect that to continue in the context of the new channel Obviously something this committee will look at and just finally a technical question which follows on the EPN point BBC4 and I have to say if you're saying that the costs of that currently include the kind of establishment and other operational costs then I think there's a very broad range of programming delivered so 30 million on programming alone for BBC Scotland is very encouraging but will the EPN slot lead to BBC4 becoming a less obviously available channel in Scotland We need to negotiate with our partners I'm sorry to the various ways in which people get their their television and it depends very much on Sky vs Freeview vs Virgin etc so I'm sorry there's not a clear answer I can give you on that What I do think is important though is that when we market we're making sure all the choices you've got and leading people from if it could be BBC1 Scotland to BBC Scotland, BBC4 whatever Alright thank you Tavish First of all maybe I could start by agreeing with a broad premise of the welcome that's been for the proposals just in passing please don't drop match the day as a Liverpool fan I do not want to see match the day lost in Scotland you can drop Alan Shearer but please don't drop the programme as a whole Two questions The first on the point you made Lord Hall about 7 million pounds in news Do you envisage and I guess also a question for Donalda on the nine o'clock news programme having access to John Swple in Washington to Quentin Somerville in Syria and so on and so forth and your earlier point about how those journalists deal with news 24 now BBC Scotland, Londoner how do they fit all that into their who will make the judgement about whether John Swple is on the nine o'clock programme as opposed to then being on the ten in 40 minutes time Scotland will make that decision between nine and ten so you've got to be clear about this because it doesn't mean that this programme will have access to John Swple or whatever they want to do and I go back to something I said we've got an enormous news gathering operation around the world and I say this to people in London too I'd love to see more of it on the air so my hope too is that Gary and the team in PQ will use some of that to do items and to do stories that actually are not appearing the rest of the day on the BBC news channel six o'clock news or ten o'clock news but that network is absolutely available to them between nine and ten that's the priority Can I ask Donald MacKinnon about radio because what's possibly not so clear out of the announcements that were made yesterday are the implications for radio I would very strongly argue for the retention indeed the enhancement of local radio stations as Lewis MacDonald was arguing about Aberdeen we make the same case about Shetland and indeed our other local radio stations around Scotland what are the broadly the implications for radio in Scotland from yesterday's announcement and how much more can be done So as I said yesterday I don't think this is just about television this is about an opportunity for all air services and I see radio as being a very important part of all of that I'm hugely proud of what we achieve in Radio Scotland and indeed in Radio Shetland Radio Orkney, Radio Nigel I think we've got fantastic teams there I think there is much more that we could do with the additional investment in content we need to work out how we extract as much value from that investment as possible and I am pretty ambitious when it comes to radio I've already said to teams that I would like to see as being able to provide audiences in Scotland with two English language radio services two distinctive services one speech one music I don't know if you've managed to catch any of our pilot Radio Scotland Extra launched eight days before it was in Andrews Day and ran across that period I think that proved to us that we could offer something really quite precious I really want to explore the possibilities of being able to deliver that obviously that would require various approvals but I'm keen to begin to explore that with colleagues in BBC Scotland Thank you Rachel Hamilton I want to get better value for the licence fee I just wanted to really have a supplementary question to Jackson because could you explain further how you're going to provide a service that is distinct from others because we're in a situation where we could have almost overload I think let me do the top point and then maybe Dylan came in on that I thought one of the good things of the charter debate was that people not wanting to push the BBC into a model as in the States where you become a tiny channel just doing things that other people wouldn't do recognising that the brets of the audience good seems for everybody was at the heart of the BBC but that those things should be overall distinctive and I think that's a good creative challenge to the BBC I think you see distinctiveness in the drama that we can offer I think the fact that you see docs about the prison service for example right in the heart of the schedule I think that's distinctive and I think taking risks and bringing on new talent is also part of that distinctiveness and I spent a little bit of time yesterday with the social at Pacific Key in an online social media world is finding new talent and giving them voice and I think that's part of what I hope this service will give to Scotland which is finding new talent giving it voice, giving it an opportunity and that's part of what I think is our distinctiveness should be what we're basing this on and what we're trying to address here is a perception that Scotland is not representing the BBC Scotland has not been able to adequately represent what audiences have been asking us to do audiences have consistently said they want to see more of their lives reflected on screen in all the areas across every genre from drama through to factual through to entertainment so this is set up to address that I would say also we have quite often commissioned fantastic programmes that audiences still find quite hard to find on BBC1 and BBC2 just because of the volume of other content that surrounds them so for the first time I think we'll have an opportunity to address that notwithstanding that we will leave fantastic content still on BBC1 Like others, I very much welcome yesterday's announcement I had the novel experience of being live on the BBC yesterday afternoon being asked to criticise the BBC by the BBC because we'd reached this cross-party consensus and it wasn't a very interesting discussion that we were having on Politics Scotland but one area that I noticed as an NUJ member I was delighted by the headline of the new jobs for journalists some concerns have been raised with me about technical staff I was wondering if you could confirm what new technical staff will be brought on board because existing members of staff at PQ came to me with some concerns that they were going to be overstretched because they noticed that they weren't really part of this announcement of new capacity being added to their teams We specifically only mentioned the journalist jobs but there will be many more jobs that will accrue from this as you say, from the technical but also in the general production We didn't wish to put a number on that because that would depend a lot on the genres that are commissioned by Danalda and the leadership of the channel I think that in terms of supporting the channel one of the points that I wish to make is that not only is there a great sense of excitement, aspiration in BBC Scotland but also in the independent sector as well I think that the channel can provide with the technical resources that you are which are required a great focus in a forum for Scotland It will give us the space to have a real set of partnerships where we can, whether that's the national theatre whether it's in music or with all the various creative institutions created in Scotland that are at play in the nation a real opportunity to deliver something that's really special I want to make another point which is that although Danalda and her team and all the community in Scotland are excited by this so are all my colleagues across the whole of the BBC in every single division whether that's research and development whether it's online James Harding in news absolutely four square behind the success of this channel Charlotte Moore in content is absolutely backing and willing the success of this channel not only with a resource but with a commitment and it's just a wonderful sense of potential and possibility that we have at this time I think in terms of the talent that we have coming through we've seen through our apprentices' schemes that the technical staff are coming through we've got a generation hugely skilled in digital media available and standing ready to support the channel The question would be about having enough I know that but the talent of the people that are there is the capacity the people that are already there that's not enough for what will be required for this new channel We'll certainly have to recruit to support the channel without question Thank you Good morning everybody I think I welcome a new TV channel I think that's great news I am concerned that 30 million won't really stretch very far I'm just wondering about our new hour long news programme at 9 o'clock Can you guarantee that this programme would get access to international reporters in the same way that the BBC does at 6pm? Absolutely and as Ken just said James Harding, the director of news has been intimately involved in his whole proposition and he's guaranteeing that I'm guaranteeing that that's absolutely the aim is to put the entire resources of the BBC nationally, internationally and in Scotland behind this news hour Do any other members have specific questions about the new channel? Stuart? Good morning panel I think like all colleagues I genuinely welcome yesterday and I think it's certainly going to create new opportunities in terms of programming but also in terms of employment and that can only be a good thing because I think as you quite rightly have stated there is a huge amount of talent in the case of talent in Scotland I've got a couple of questions in terms of further detail the first one is regarding BBC Alba The additional £1.2 million I think it's certainly welcomed as well but it still doesn't put that channel on a par with S4C in Wales so will there be any scope for any additional investment into BBC Alba going forward? I'll leave Kenny to answer the question about S4C in Wales but just to say that currently we invest £5.5 million in BBC Alba we are now taking on the responsibility of funding £1.2 million of content that we were producing and paid for by MG Alba so that has allowed us the opportunity or has allowed the commissioning team around BBC Alba to commission extra content from around the country what we are saying by launching this new channel by this new reinvestment that there will be obvious benefits that will accrue for BBC Alba and for Radio Nigel that we will be able to offer an additional 100 hours of originated programming to the service we currently offer 4.2 hours of origination a week we would like to see that over the next 3 years increased by 3 hours to 7.2 so although the ask has been for us to provide 10 hours of origination we are fairly confident that we can reach 7.2 and where possible we have opportunities to invest whether around universities around elections around major events we will always take account of the fact that we need to invest in BBC Alba and in Radio Nigel at the same time and again I would just like to emphasise the importance of having launched BBC Alba in terms of that experience and the learning that it provides us how absolutely powerful that is in terms of what we are going to be able to do now I see these two channels working hand in glove so I see the opportunities for BBC Alba as it meant so take it it is something that would certainly be under review on a continual review basis if there is any additional resource okay thank you in terms of the 9 o'clock to 10 o'clock news programme I am young enough to remember that the news used to be at 9 o'clock changed to 10 p.m and from memory I might be wrong on this and you can tell me if I am but I am sure that one of the reasons for it was because of other programming and the news seemed to split up the potential kind of drama programmes so it was put on to 10 o'clock to make that make less of that break in programming so with the 9 o'clock to 10 p.m in this slot to be taken as a news hour well that do you anticipate that that's actually going to have a high viewership or do you think that if there are good drama programmes or good programmes on the other channels then it's actually the 9 to 10 slot is doomed to fail I used to edit the 9 o'clock news so a very long time ago and in fact was part of the discussions which moved it to 10 I think the 9 o'clock is the point when the audience, the available audience is very high indeed so it's a good point to try to capture audiences in the evening and I think what you're also seeing now is in terms of drama and other things to watch people are also using catch up so they might go live and then use catch up to go and see things that they might be playing on other channels so I think there's a terrific chance here to do something which actually will really capture peoples imaginations and viewership a lot of that depends on I go back to EPG position to the rest of the content etc but I think this is a good positioning for a news programme and we're adding to choice that viewers in Scotland have not trying to compete against somebody else say at 7 or another time so I'm confident about this one more very briefly in terms of the news content with the 9 to 10 slot and obviously the focus will be editorial content coming obviously from Scotland do you see that having a knock-on effect to the 6pm news which is obviously a UK network in terms of even potentially even more non-Scottish based content in that particular slot well for a start there'll be a much greater news gathering operation in Scotland and I think that that will benefit all of our services so far from the detracting from what we're offering at 6 o'clock I think it offers potential further potential for six to half six to reflect Scotland better potentially and indeed it will probably enhance reporting Scotland as well so I do think that this is a win-win and as Tony said it is about extending choice we have our highest audience numbers around about 9 o'clock so I think we've given it the best chance that I think we possibly can it's not competing with any other news programme it will have access to the foreign correspondence because there is no other requirement other than the 10 admittedly so I think this is enhancing our offer an absolutely extending choice thank you very much can we move on now cos of the number of important issues that we need to talk about in terms of the charter and some of the evidence that the committee's gathered in the past most notably that is evident from the independent production sector in Scotland and the concern of the phenomenon of lift and shift whereby you meet your targets for Scottish production with production companies that aren't actually really based here in Scotland so can I ask you what steps the BBC is taking to ensure that the majority of the 8.6% Scottish target for original network programme is made by Scottish companies and produced by Scottish based talent first of all across the BBC across the nations and regions we have new portrayal targets which will make sure that the stories we tell are absolutely representative of that in terms of what we want to do we want to grow from the ground in all of the nations of the UK to have the best content that we possibly can airing not only in the UK but across the world in terms of the areas of lift and shift that we've discussed we have an assurance process whereby there is a mechanism to go to OFCOM with any challenge on any of the programmes that we are designating ultimately we work within the OFCOM rules as far as that's concerned but in terms of the spirit of what this committee wants to see delivered we're absolutely... That doesn't sound as if you're doing anything new I think in terms of all of what we've put in place in terms of the commissioners we've put in place in the ground, in terms of the access in terms of the writer's rooms in terms of the money that we're putting into development we've created a new portrayal fund of £2 million to ensure that we foster and enhance portrayal all of these are new measures designed to ensure that on the ground that we're producing the ideas What should the minimum requirement be for a company qualifying as a Scottish company that would contribute to this quarter What should be the minimum requirement? The OFCOM criteria which we abide by is substantive base 70% of the spend in Scotland and if I recall half the production team should come from Scotland as well and that's what we abide with but listen, I think what's going on here is to get to our targets in the past we've moved as much as we can to Scotland which actually has produced jobs the snooker example which I've been looking at because I know again this is something which concerns you for Scots even though they're actually working in Sheffield and that does sound odd but look I think what we're trying to do is to get away from that and say actually what we're committing to now is working with the indie sector here working with BBC studios here to ensure that we're growing the creative base of Scotland in Scotland with Scots creativity and I think we're in a different part of the development and what we're trying to do in Scotland I'm pushing the point because obviously we've had a lot of correspondence on this, it's come up not just in this committee but in the previous economy committee and I just wanted to read out to you something that an independent producer had sent to us in relation to your commissioning because you've made a big play of these new commissioners but this independent producer has said network programming budgets are now 100 per cent controlled in London by channel controllers of BBC One, BBC Two, BBC Three and BBC Four and these four individuals who are named are the only commissioners that can green light projects for the BBC network everyone else, anyone they tell you is based in Scotland is not a commissioner though they may help you on the road to a commission they're not empowered to buy programmes for the BBC so this independent producer goes on to say so if the BBC won't devolve this power to commission to individuals based here they should at the very least acquire to allocate the spend in Scotland in line with our national licence fee revenue for example these allocations should apply to BBC One, BBC Two, BBC Three, BBC Four and they should cover drama, comedy, documentary, arts, entertainment etc I thought that was quite a strong point to make that you can talk about having commissioners in Scotland but the power is still with these four individuals in London that's not how I understand or I see the commissioning system working these are powerful voices in Scotland working with the teams that look at the whole of the UK and what we're doing for example in drama or what we're doing in science or what we're doing in arts making a television across the network is a collaboration and what I want to ensure is that the voices of Scotland are absolutely there at that table when decisions are made about do we do this or that or whatever that's one thing so I think those commissioners based in Scotland being part of that conversation is really important the second thing though is that we are holding our networks as you know to strict goals in terms of the amount we expect to come out of Scotland and indeed Wales and indeed Northern Ireland so there's a kind of a double thing going on there I think being in the conversation and being part of the discussion debate is really important that's a creative discussion but you're also having to argue or make sure we're delivering against targets and what we're doing this year is over-delivering against that which I think is really good and that shows the power actually of influencing power but real power that the commissioners have got Who has the green light? Is it these four individuals Charlotte Moore, Patrick Holland, Damian, Kavanaugh and Cassie and Harrison? Is it these four channel controllers that have the green light at the end of the day? The channel controllers in the end of the people who say making television is not just a question of I'm going to sit there on my pedestal and decide that and the other it really is about a conversation, about a debate about what creatively we're trying to do and what I want to make sure is that the voice of Scotland through those commissioners are absolutely there at the core of that debate and I believe they are increasingly which is why you see the upturn in terms of what we're commissioning and doing from Scotland Do all the commissioners you have in Scotland live in Scotland? I think so The comedy commissioner lives in Scotland Factual commissioner lives in Scotland Children's commissioner lives in Scotland The acting drama commissioner lives in Scotland Entertainment, data and entertainment commissioners both live in Scotland too Ross Greer On the last point around the commissioners I had some contact I'm about to talk about the acting drama commissioner I've not met the individual in that post at the moment it's not them who contacted me but there was some concern that the new role that that person will have to apply for the role that will replace that seems to be based three days a week in London Is that the case? There are three nations I've got a job description In terms of obviously in the appointments process at the moment there's a certainly in terms of time they would spend for example Stephen Wright from BBC Northern Ireland would spend time in Northern Ireland where he lives but also time in London they would be back and forth depending on what appointment is actually made If you're spending most of your week most of your working week in London is that really a Scottish based job is that really drama commissioner for Scotland? The person who is appointed and we're in the middle of an appointments process at the moment so I wouldn't wish to say too much about that but will be in Scotland to absolutely effect the role that they've been designated to do and they will they will build the connections will be here how they divide their time will be between themselves and obviously the head of department I think what will be really important is that I don't think we can be prescriptive about how much time any individual should spend in London or indeed anywhere around the UK If these jobs are Scotland facing jobs then obviously there has to be a critical amount of time that they absolutely spend here however in order to be part of these collaborative conversations around what is right to sit on any given channel or again to fulfil our commitments then they have to be part of that conversation too so presence in London is important but I take your point I don't think we should be prescriptive about the amount of time a person has to spend there Do you accept the point that this is often where concern about lift and shift reoccurring comes from when you have Scottish posts and I don't mean some particularly parochial bits but when you have Scottish posts that are in fact largely based in London that can be where issues of lift and shift come from because they are familiar with independent production companies based down south who they can commission to do work in Scotland I don't see how you can do your job properly unless you're based here and spending a huge amount of time here the whole thing about Anglies commissioners is that outside talking to people working out ideas, talking to people in Scotland all over Scotland finding out new talent working out with existing talent what we can do that's the job isn't it that's the job to be out there so I don't see how you can do that that means by being here for a substantial amount of time but of course you also want to argue your corner with the drama commissioner in London the head of drama in London so you've got to spend some time I guess on the virgin trains or the plane but you've got to be doing your job here getting out there and getting around the place finding new ideas I think that point about balance I think is the key point rather than the concerns that have been raised about being the majority of your working week outside the area that you should be working for Thank you Lewis McDonald Thank you very much you've talked about the BBC family this morning and the screen sector leadership group which produced a report recently in Scotland chair by John McCormack they talked about ensuring that there was a Scottish voice not just in commissioning of programmes here in Scotland but within the network and I wonder if in addition to the commission are posts that what your thoughts are around commissioning for the network specifically going forward I mean the voice we've now got right at the centre of the BBC having Kenny there with his broad remit over all nations and regions I think is phenomenally important for ensuring the voice of Scotland but also where's Northern Ireland and England is heard at the very very top table your point is a McDonald I did that because one of our public purposes the new public purpose is to make sure we're committed to the nations and regions and that's what Ken's job is which means for the first time in the time I've been back at the BBC which is nearly four years the national and regional English voice is absolutely there in all our discussions and you know Ken makes his views heard very very powerfully on that I think that's a big change in the way that the top of the BBC sees our commitment not just to Scotland but other nations as well That's helpful One of the other commitments I know you've made in the past has been around service licence agreements and ensuring a devolution of decision making within the BBC to BBC Scotland and I wonder if you could update us on where that lies I can, I mean that is still my view but I hope you understand I've now got a new chair I'm delighted that Sir David Clementi is joining as the chair of the BBC I've long believed as you may have seen from other evidence here but elsewhere too believed in the BBC having a unionry board you know how we now organise ourselves is very very much his prerogative and not mine though of course I'll be recommending things to him but I think that if you just look at the things that we announced yesterday I mean BBC Scotland channel in her bailiwick and she's got to get on with it with the right metrics and so on that is an element of clear devolution of responsibilities That's very helpful we talked a little earlier about Alipa and clearly Ken Macquarie with an overview of the nations and regions will see that in the context of the BBC family as a whole for example in relation to broadcasting in Wales and some of the issues that have been raised around that whether Ken Macquarie would like to say something about how he sees what the vision is if you like not just within BBC Scotland but within the BBC as a whole for the future of garlic language broadcasting both on radio and television I think there's a very exciting opportunity within the new division of nations and regions where clearly Directors Danalda here in Scotland and Roderay Wales and Peter in Northern Ireland will address their own audiences the specific needs but there's a great opportunity to bring together the nations and the regions to work together because each has a part of funding I think there's a tremendous richness in terms of the ideas that can be exchanged in different ways of working and different approaches and I think within that BBC Alipa can absolutely benefit from that and I would envisage also that we will go further outside the BBC and build relationships with other broadcasters be that TGKR for example in Ireland or be it indeed in the all of the if you like the potential for creativity for conversations BBC Alipa will absolutely benefit from that and indeed will benefit from every single investment that the BBCs make as we showed with iPlayer but with every other investment we will absolutely set out to make sure that every time we spend a public pound that the maximum value is derived from it Thank you very much Okay Richard Lockhead I just wonder if you can say a little bit more about the commissioning process I'm trying to get my head round how the sort of relationship works between the creative sectors in Scotland and the BBC and to what extent you set down challenges for the creative sector to come back with ideas or to what extent they come to you with ideas and you know how all that relationship works So it can be both so depending on what services it is different commissioners operate slightly different ways of working I think one of with the setting up of BBC studios we have absolutely had to look at all of that and we hope to be communicating with the independent production sector in Scotland myself and my colleague Alan Dixon behind me next Wednesday just outlining how we plan to organise the commissioning process for Scotland going forward I think our commissioner for television has tended to operate on a rolling commissioning basis so there will be briefs provided but then there is an expectation that producers, production companies in-house production will develop ideas to meet some of these briefs or indeed come up with ideas that the commissioner perhaps hadn't thought of because I think it's important that you have a bit of a mix of that what we are going to have to do now though is prepare ourselves for this new contestability framework where our transparency around commissioning becomes even more acutely important and that's what we plan to communicate to the sector on Wednesday and indeed to in-house teams as well so that everybody feels that they are operating on a level playing field as much access that there is transparency and accountability as I said around everything that we do I think that's very important so if in five or three or four or five years we were to have the killing or the bridge or Borgon coming from Scotland, the equivalent how do you think that's best how can that best happen I think we already have many ideas in train for and aspirations to that effect to achieve that level of drama production in Scotland but if I could say I think in many ways we are already there I think we have a returning brand in Shetland I think it's a fantastic series I also think that on a whole lot of other fronts we produce fantastic content on a daily basis look out for the replacement next Tuesday on BBC One we've also got a brand new drama set here in Edinburgh called Clic which will air on 5 March on BBC Three so we're already there I just think that we have now got an even better opportunity a bigger opportunity to explore some of that creativity even further and ensure that that critical mass that we've all longed for will exist on that subject a number of parties have raised concerns with the committees about the BBC Studios and whether there really will be a level playing field for Scottish producers whether the BBC Studios fits the Scottish model how are you going to ensure that the tender process gives Scottish independent producers a fair crack of the whip when you're competing with BBC Studios? The new board under existing arrangements the BBC Trust and our fair trading guidelines ensure that there is a level playing field we've begun a tendering process at the moment with three programmes out to tender and there is a level playing field between studios and between Indies with a unitary board their job their responsibility is to make sure that level playing field carries on Ofcom as our new regulator from April 1 also have the duty to ensure that we're doing that properly as well of checks on us to make sure that we're doing this properly but can I just turn the argument round what I saw was in-house production which I believe in gradually diminishing right across the piece and I by setting up studios the team and myself wanted to release some of the ideas that in-house said well look you know I've got this idea it's been turned down because you want now I can do nothing and to say alright if the government are going to say to us we want to make sure that you open up all your airwaves to competition between in-house production and Indies which I happen to think is the right thing we want to get the best of the independent sector with the best of our in-house then you've got to make sure equally that the in-house can compete properly and that's been I've got great confidence in our in-house producers it's been difficult because we've had to make redundant some people it's hard to do that I would rather we didn't have to do that but I've got a lot of confidence in our in-house teams or studios teams we now call them here in Scotland but also elsewhere around the UK to really push forward some exciting and good ideas I didn't want to see gradual decline for any of our production base in-house I wanted to see the chance of it growing and that's down to our ideas now Jackson Carlaw Yes a single question really the fact you now have BBC studios you're looking at 60% new commissioning of programming which will go beyond and into the independent sector however does that also represent a challenge to Scottish Government, Scottish Enterprise Creative Scotland because it does seem to me that Northern Ireland's screen and Wales have been more advanced in the development of studio capacity there seem to be lots of concerns about available studio capacity in Scotland and I just wonder what you may be creating all those opportunities and while documentaries don't particularly need studio capacity we need to ensure that the enterprise agencies and the Scottish Government are ensuring that Scotland is in a place to actually take advantage of the opportunity you're creating I think that the Northern Ireland screen model has been a particularly powerful model met with Richard Williams in Northern Ireland we'll be meeting with him again shortly I think that in Scotland there's now an opportunity for all of the creative agencies to come together to make sure that the commitments that we're making in terms of our spend unleashes unleashes the maximum potential and I think that the McCormack John McCormack's report indicates where we could go with that and I would like to see in all of the nations strong competitive street screen agencies and Scotland competing equally in that regard okay, thank you okay, Tavis Scott Can I ask about digital services because I think that all you were asked about this a year ago when you were in front of a previous committee and obviously the BBC moved BBC 3 onto digital last year there's a recent Ofcom report that shows only 46% of properties in other words houses across Scotland actually can get superfast broadband so my concern as a member representing rural part of it I'm grateful for the plug for Shetland that you've made a number of times this morning I could exclusively reveal and I've been asked to be an extra but I'm going to turn it down so there we are you don't need me on television in any way whatsoever no, I rest my case but on digital rollout can I ask what the BBC is doing to recognise that many parts of Scotland indeed many parts of the UK have the challenges of superfast broadband and therefore if you put more onto digital that's BBC programming yes, we've absolutely recognised you know that there is an imbalance in terms of the availability of if you like high speed broadband and I think that where we are certainly interested in getting involved is in conversations with all the stakeholders in this regard from BBC online BBC R&D I know it's something that Matthew Postgate who leads that area will be interested in that and we would be happy to sit down and identify where the needs are and be part of that conversation so it's on-going work in that sense I mean what the BBC officer who I play is an incentive to go online and to get broadband and if we can in any way help the conversation on getting more broadband to more people we're up for that thank you can you just tell us where you are with the Scotland homepage that's the answer so part of the proposal that we announced yesterday and part of the investment that we announced we're going to Scotland digital editions of our news and sport pages but that will also contribute to reimagining the homepage right, do you have a deadline for that? that work is on-going at the moment right, okay talk about when you gave evidence last year one of the big pushes we're having is to get people to sign in to iPlayer and online as well because this is not about the homepage it's about our big push over the next year or two we want to get people to sign in so we know who they are and where they are and then we can begin to to them that suits either the geography where they are or their interests we've called it my BBC I think I talked about that last time I was here and we're making sure that we can get people to sign in voluntarily at the moment but there's going to be a point at some point in the next year when we'll make it mandatory and at that point when we've got data about people we can then begin to serve them even better with things that are particular to them and I think although the homepage is important I think the notion that we know you're in Scotland here's your news about Scotland but actually here's the latest of X or Y or BBC Scotland or whatever I think it's going to be a big breakthrough to serving people better as well Just to clarify there is going to be additional investment in digital journalism Yes Emma Harper There's a lot of money spent on Alba and I'm curious about seeing more programmes on Scots language like more, not just comedy more drama, maybe children's programmes educational programmes using Urain Scots lead I agree with you I think we do encourage as much of Scots language to appear across our output and the Scots language of course has many expressions across Scotland as I'm sure you know what we do is we try to reflect that range in some of our so in programmes like The Mart The River, Fair Isle Cythill, Grand Tours we do that on television on radio we encourage our on-ear talent to use Scots language as much as they can we've also just broadcast very recently a three-parter on Burns I can't remember exactly what the title was but it was something about a normal life of Robert Burns we've also Billy Kay has made many an important series for us but recently he updated that fantastic series called The Scots Tongue so we are very committed to reflecting the Scots language where and when we can okay thanks thanks very much Stuart McMillan thank you Eleanor on this morning when you spoke about the announcement yesterday on the new channel also the new talent, the opportunities and also the potential for taking risks in terms of some of the commissioning so with that in mind has there been a culture of commissioning editors potentially being risk averse when commissioning from companies that they've possibly not worked with before I've preferred to put it more positively I think it goes back to the question asked by Ms Hamilton about distinctiveness is the right question I think because of the way we're funded I think we can afford and should afford to take more risks to commission things we're not sure they're going to work to make sure that they we give them every possible chance to work but which might be more edgy might break new ground, might feel that we're not following but we're actually leading and that's why it goes back again to the important role of commissioners as well as the people who are doing the production of this content that we make that part of what we're about because when I talk and the Scottish Parliament have been very helpful this an 11 year charter gives us the confidence to say we know we're going to exist in the next 11 years and I think therefore in how we commission and the programs we do should show that confidence and I don't want the programs to fail but I do want but if somebody said to me that was great you took that but he didn't quite work did it but well done for doing it I'm also content because I think I wanted to break new ground You might have mentioned the social I would draw your attention to it if you haven't consumed any of it I would urge you to do so I think it is an example of where we've become particularly innovative in that digital sphere I think what they do in terms of curating and commissioning content from producers who are mostly young from across this country their emphasis is heavily on diversity it's short form admittedly but I think there's just something in that model that we could possibly translate into this new service but I also just think about it just in terms of what they're doing in sourcing new talent in surfacing new kinds of production, new approaches I think it's probably one of the most innovative models that probably exists across the BBC I talked yesterday to a brilliant young woman she's at university she said I never knew I could do this I'm being supported here by the BBC to make things and I'm so excited and I've learned a whole direction for my career there's also by the way there's a yoga in kilts which is an interesting short video which is terrific and really beautifully done they were talking yesterday which I think is right at Pacific Key and saying is this something we could franchise across the whole of the BBC because it really is drilling into that next generation of people and seeing how they can take public service broadcasting on and giving them a chance to do things which are exciting and I hope are going to change their lives I'm so impressed by the social Check out the three year old's views on Valentine's Day as well not just in Scotland but in Salford I think what they do is particularly innovative and also I think we should look into our learning departments as well and just to go back to your question about Scots language I think what they've done there in terms of materials that they provide in the Scots language for schools have been hugely important and again very creative or yoga in kilts as a politician I hesitated before sharing it in Facebook sorry to interrupt you Mr McMillan I'm not aware of this particular programme and I don't know if I want to actually but we'll see in terms of the commissioning certainly in recent years but also with this opportunity going forward with the new charter how much focus or what type of drive will there be to encourage the commissioning editors to certainly look at Scotland in terms of what actually has been produced I mean also a couple of examples just spoken about there but to look at Scotland and also with the new channel as well announced yesterday and with the additional employment and opportunities that will be created The drive's coming from me and it's coming from Ken as well but as Donalda was saying and I was trying to say too it's a wonderful thing and what we did yesterday is to say look you've now got this channel to do exciting things on and one of the things we kind of know when you've seen it with some of the opt-out programmes from BBC2 is when people see something good and they say well that's terrific and it's been commissioned in Scotland we'll also make sure that goes across the UK and it's something you were making a point about earlier on I think we now have an even bigger palette to do programming things from Scotland which my aim is to get as many of those to go right across the network as we can On the way to deliver that obviously there's been talk of the service level agreement as a way of delivering that making sure that we get more programmes made in Scotland for the network Has that service level agreement been finalised? Can you tell us a little bit about it? That's the work of the new unitary board which comes in on April 3 so when that board is there we'll figure out how we're going to be governed in that sort of way Ofcom will of course have a view across the totality of what we're doing as well and set us targets and quotas on that as well but I'll just go back what we announced yesterday is spending in Scotland is under Donalda's purview so it's up to her to deliver against that You had discussions with Ofcom about the operating framework and how it will operate in Scotland Those are discussions going on at the moment I know you're hearing from Ofcom later They're about to be our regulator It's far better that they say how they're going to regulate us than I has it I guess We've run out of time I know that you were earlier asked about the screen sector leadership group and we've probably not gone into their report perhaps in the detail that we should have but just to finish off one of the key recommendations of that report is that you should have a five year strategy on the licence fee being spent in Scotland Are you going to adopt that recommendation by the screen sector leadership group? We've laid out where we're going for the next three years I said that to use that analogy I always hate a journey but we're making progress We continue to make progress We've all got to ask wherever we are across the UK if you get to the point of all the licence fee that you raise in Scotland that is spent in Scotland 100% is done in Wales, Northern Ireland and Northern England and so on you begin to lose the unity of the BBC and the question I think we've all got to ask ourselves is what are we paying towards the fact of having a brilliant world service having a BBC one that has amazing sports all these things which we get by being together and there's a price to that so don't take from that any unwillingness on my part to keep pushing to get more but I also have to consider what it is that Scotland, London Ashbourne, anywhere are all paying to get the totality of our output in the way we all want it to be and enjoy so it's a balance So you're saying that you're not going to adopt that recommendation? I'm saying we've laid out where we are for the next three years I'm clear where we are going for the next three years and as that goes on we'll decide more of what we want to do Okay, thank you very much for coming to give evidence to us today and perhaps you could maybe give an undertaking to come back to the committee at a later point once your plans are further developed Very very happy to come back, convener Thank you very much We'll have a short suspension Okay We now continue the evidence session and I welcome Glen Preston for Scotland for Ofcom and Kevin Backhurst, group director of content policy with Ofcom I understand that Ofcom will commence its new regulatory role with regard to the BBC in April so this session will focus on Ofcom's consultation work to date an approach to going forward and I'd like to invite Glen Preston to make an opening statement Thanks, Kefair I think Kevin's actually going to do the opening statement if that's okay with you director for content media policy I just say a couple of quick words just about Ofcom in Scotland just to set some of the context as well We're growing in Scotland a number of you will probably be familiar with the background to Ofcom We had about five people in Scotland from 2003 up until last summer as part of an out of London strategy which is really focused also on recognising the big shift in constitutional and political landscape particularly in Scotland We have about 24 people in the Ofcom office based in Princess Street in Edinburgh now some of which are on the content standards and policy side in Kevin's group who will be focusing on the sorts of BBC regulation issues that you were just discussing and that we will discuss as the new regulator from the 3rd of April so I hope it's helpful to have that kind of context there and then I'll pass over to Kevin Thank you, Camina I'll try and be brief because I know you're time limited here Thank you very much for the invitation to appear before the committee today and for this opportunity to make some short opening remarks The Scottish Parliament Information Centre briefing today for today's session has done a very good job at outlining the background to the renewal of the BBC Charter and Agreement and Ofcom's current and future responsibilities I hope it's useful briefly for me to outline where things are from Ofcom's perspective In December we published a document about our preparations for assuming our new responsibilities that noted that the new Charter and Agreement represent the biggest reform of the governance and regulation agreements of the BBC since it was founded As the new external regulator Ofcom brings scale and experience in certain areas of public service broadcast and delivery as well as the value of its overview of the whole broadcast and communications sector at a time of increasing conversions into connectedness and change The new Charter, the BBC Board and Ofcom will have distinct roles in line with the Clementi Review's recommendation that governance and regulation should be separated The Charter makes it clear that the Board of the BBC is responsible for the exercise of all of the functions of the BBC in accordance with the provisions set out in the Charter and Agreement It will be for the BBC Board to ensure that the BBC acts in the public interest and meets its wider Charter obligations as well as continuing to oversee service delivery and efficiency Our role at Ofcom is to set regulatory requirements that the BBC must meet in respect of programmes and services to ensure the BBC's actions don't have a disproportionate impact on fair and effective competition and to hold the BBC to account where it fails to comply with its obligations In carrying out our role we'll have robust enforcement powers We view this as a clean break with the old regime The BBC trust is responsible for both governance and regulation Ofcom's new role will be different The regulatory system we construct will reflect our position as an independent external regulator and our experience of regulating the entire broadcasting sector The BBC's independence from government is recognised in the Charter and Ofcom is independent of Government and independent of the organisations it regulates The BBC must have the space to take creative risks and choose how it organises itself Provided it continues to comply with its overarching duties without the regulator involved in its creative decision making scheduling decisions or management structures The operating licence that we set for the BBC will reflect and respect the separation of responsibilities The Charter and Agreement requires Ofcom to issue an operating framework setting out exactly how it will regulate the BBC shaping a clear, efficient and easy-to-understand framework for BBC regulation The Charter and Agreement define Ofcom's role in three main areas content standards, competition and performance The operating framework will set out the regulatory tools that Ofcom will use to hold the BBC to account in these areas We are consulting and we have been for some weeks on the detail of our role This will build on the series of the initial consultations that are recently closed These consultations are well summarised in the Spice Note but I draw the committee's attention specifically to the Broadcasting Code Review which will see the application of the existing broadcasting code in full to BBC Broadcasting Services and where relevant on-demand programme services Also, to assessing the impact of proposed changes on the BBC public service activities In this consultation we set out our proposed approach on how we will assess proposed changes by the BBC to its public service activities This is particularly relevant in the light of yesterday's announcement Finally, to the procedures for enforcement of BBC competition requirements and this would reflect back on the already discussed on BBC Studios and this will be an area that is covered by that Glen's team will share the outcome of these consultations with this committee and the Scottish Government when they are available The Ofcom Scotland team will also continue to engage more generally with the committee across the range of our regulatory responsibilities as they affect your interests We'll do so in tandem with our engagement with the Scottish Government to discuss their interests in this process including the policy position they've clearly set out on representative content across all BBC outputs and in respect of commissioning and editorial practices which will support the growth and sustainability of Scotland's creative industries I hope that that's helpful in setting out the current state of play from Ofcom's perspective I was fortunate to be present for the evidence from the BBC and to be happy to answer questions and to reflect on the discussion from this morning's opening recession Thank you very much and I say that I certainly welcome the role that you have been given and then you could see from our previous evidence session that there are going to have very high expectations of yourselves as a regulator in delivering on some of the scrutinising some of the areas that have been basically a constant bone of contention in terms of programme making in Scotland. Can I ask when the operating framework will be published and what it will contain and will the operating framework include a made outside London quota which the BBC will have to meet? Yes, to be clear the operating framework is made up of several considerate parts the operating licence which we are currently in the process of drawing up which sets out performance requirements for the BBC and that specifically will answer the point that the question just raised about representation of the UK properly and we are working through that in terms of the requirements that we can impose on the BBC the requirements in that we are legally enforceable we are looking at the BBC's past performance we are looking particularly through the eyes of the charter and the agreement which make one of the core public purposes as you know is reflecting and representing the diverse communities and peoples of the UK, the nations and regions and that is a specific focus for us so in terms of operating framework to go back to the point there is the operating licence which will set requirements for the BBC to meet in the year that comes there are performance measurements which will monitor how the BBC is doing so for example it might look at how in an on-going way the BBC is perceived by the audience in Scotland as delivering in terms of representation and programming that's relevant and so on and then there are other tools we have within the operating framework we can do an ad-hoc review into any specific area, any point if we have particular concerns or interest in that area the operating licence itself is going to be put out to consultation at the end of March with a relatively long consultation period so that we'll hopefully taking the BBC's publication of their own creative plan which will form part of the consultation along with any other input we have including from Scotland I think it's fair to say that one of the big wins for Scotland and the charter is that there is a commitment to the creative industries in Scotland in delivering on that and again you will have an important role there in my questioning this morning around the whole issue of lift and shift at the BBC the answer is kind of deflected back to yourself and how you set the criteria for what is a Scottish company clearly the way it was presented this morning that criteria sounds quite robust but clearly from previous evidence sessions with the independent production sector that that is not felt to be the case could you see for example yourself toughening up that criteria further to address this problem because there's been a problem for a number of years I think the straight forward answer that is yes it's something we've been considering actually in the last few weeks in the light of one specific complaint Could you tell us more about that please I'd rather not because it's in the middle of the process it would be unfair to to talk about that specifically but I would say that it's something I've taken a personal interest in we have a a very experienced team looking at it Ofcom does have an arrangement of the BBC that we set set out the ways that the legal requirements should be interpreted my view is that if those framework is if people are adhering to that framework meeting the legal requirements but it's not meeting the spirit of what that is trying to do then that needs to be revisited I'm sure many people will welcome that I'll pass on to Lewis Macdonald now Thank you very much on that theme does that imply that you will seek to develop a more detailed set of criteria by which you make judgments about commissions and how they support the creative economy here in Scotland As I understand it the process and you have to forgive me I was in broadcast until three months ago so I'm relatively new to regulation but I have been looking at this in some detail As I understand it if we decide to review the framework and look at how we might tighten it up we would put out a public consultation on that we would need to put out a public consultation on that so that everybody can contribute their views which I suspect there would be relatively vociferous views across the piece the framework also potentially could apply to a wider range of broadcasts than just the BBC I was keen to explore that because clearly there are issues that have arisen in relation to other broadcasters and the level we talked this morning about the screen sector leadership group report John McCormack which found or raised some concerns about commissioning to the ITV network programmes from STV and I wonder if there's how far the work you're doing currently in relation to the BBC has a pertinence and relevance to that and other companies I think one of the merits of OFCOM taking over regulation of the BBC is that we have a role in regulating the other public service broadcasters so channel 4 and 5 so we can take an overview of the whole broadcasting sector and also the whole health of the creative sector across the UK and in the individual nations and that is a responsibility we should have we should do the best to make sure that the creative sector is flourishing across the UK but in the individual nations as well and that would underpin anything that we would do so as I say this I had the pleasure of reading that report I thought it made some extremely valid observations and points not just on this area across the piece it was an impressive piece of work but if we go out to consultation it will be a relatively we would have to look across the sector I was struck by the title of your report which referred to the nations of the United Kingdom and their regions and I think that implied a good level of recognition of the fact that Scotland is a nation which contains within it quite distinct regions is a made outside Glasgow a criterion something that would be part of your consideration it's something we can look at in future I think that where we absolutely want to try and draw the line is the BBC has to be able to run its own affairs first and foremost and ideally we want to be in a position over the next two or three years when we're properly ensconced in this position as an independent regulator that we are addressing failures rather than being prescriptive to the BBC so we'll monitor what they do we'll see if they are truly representing the diverse communities, nations and regions at the UK if there are areas that we feel we need to intervene in in future that is open to us one thing I should say is the operating licence is not a once off for 11 years we will set the first operating licence in the autumn following the consultation my expectation is and my hope is a little change over the years to come and it needs to change to reflect the initiatives taken by the BBC the changing consumption patterns technology and so on so we need to be able to be flexible and part of that is dropping requirements where the BBC is performing and potentially putting in other requirements where there is a perception that the BBC is not performing sufficiently you already have a role in regulating Alipa among other channels and just very briefly how will that role be impacted or will it change with the new responsibility for regulating the BBC it shouldn't change we do the role of off-com with other broadcasters is specifically laid out for each of those broadcasters so the only way it will change is that we have a wider view of the PSP landscape if you know it thank you very much Tavish Scott Can I just ask further to Lewis Macdonald's questioning how do you avoid this framework becoming a number scheme argument as opposed to the quality part of your assessment about that or are we going to end up in an argument where Manchester produces X number of programmes Glasgow produces X number of programmes that ticks a big box in the arguments you've just made but actually quality is neither here nor there I'm sure that's not what any of us want so how are you dealing with this what I suppose is a straightforward dilemma about how that framework should operate You put your finger on the dilemma at the heart of this really which is and I suspect it'll be as I say the operating licence will evolve starting from and this is very clear in the charter and agreement in schedule 2 of the charter and agreement which is there's a presumption that OFCOM will take the existing trust targets and translate them across and increase some of them as necessary that is a presumption there but I would hope over time that some of those will fall away where the BBC is performing so that we get away from the numbers game and look more at the quality of what is being turned out if you like that there'll always be a role for numbers to have some framework to judge spending Scotland, percentage of network originations made in Scotland those sort of things are very useful as part of it but the numbers are only part of the assessment and assessing the performance of the BBC in a robust way with a lot of audience research is going to be one of the key tools we use Do other members wish to come in? Jackson Just a phrase there You said where there is a perception that the BBC perception can sometimes be informed by prejudice rather than evidence I presume that you would want any intervention to be evidence based and not simply be to react to any particular opinion that was floated at any particular time which might actually not be substantially evidence at all Yes, OFCOM operates in a very evidence based way when I say a perception it'll be a measured perception over time that we track I wouldn't say we'd overreact these things come and go depending on for example political climate or whatever but we would dig down into perception of for example how people feel they're represented across Scotland do they feel there's programming that there's there for them some of these things are measured already we'd enhance that we would combine that with measurements so I think it has to be a combination both of audience research which is done in a robust way alongside actual things that you can measure that the BBC is doing Can you say a little bit more about how you're going to report back on the BBC's performance in Scotland in particular with relation to support of the creative economy Yes, so we will issue an annual report every year so the BBC will issue an annual report we will issue an annual report every year and an important part of that will be on the way the BBC is probably reflecting and representing the nations so it'll be done in the annual report there could be specific pieces of work if we choose to do them about the way the BBC is reflecting the nations properly but the main tool will be in the annual report which will include all the audience measurements that we've done as well as the other measurements You'll have heard the discussion we had this morning about the new channel and the electronic programming guide and understand that you have a role in that and how important it is to get public service content on that on page 1 of that guide Are you able to say a little bit more about what your role will be in that? Yes, that's correct It's very important to all the public service broadcasters that they have prominence on the PG's across the programme guides across the digital services and OFCOM does have a role in ensuring that they get prominent for their services in discussions with Sky, Virgin and Preview so we will have a role and it's an important part of our role in making sure that public service content is available in the most prominent way possible to the audiences A few years ago this came up when there was a launch of the local television channels in Scotland and because of BBC Alpa they struggled to get a prominent role even though that role is supposed to go to public service broadcasters and there were non-public service content on page 1 which could not be shifted to make way for the local TV stations Is that a situation in which you could see the new channel encountering as well? Part of that is commercial negotiations and OFCOM has a role in that and we would have a view in the end we have limited powers over Sky but we have a role and make it clear that our view on prominence on the EPG is an important part of Sky's responsibility not to pick out just Sky, Virgin to Yes, but in Preview what is the situation with Preview do you have more power there? The public service broadcasters themselves have a certain amount of sway over Preview so I would imagine Preview and also this few channels on there so they should be able to but as Tony Hall made clear this is part of a negotiation but you know they have some EPG space already from channels that they put online the other thing I would say is that EPGs they are very important they have been incredibly important they remain important but as we know audience consumption is changing their content online and via an on-demand in increasing numbers so while it remains important the audience is very savvy about finding the content they want to find Is there any other points that you would like to make about the new channel and your role? Well I I read the announcement I've read the response this morning in terms of OFCOM's position first of all there probably will be a public interest test on it probably the first one that we do after resuming our new responsibilities because it is a significant new public service so but in approaching that we weigh out market impact against the public the public purpose and the value of the public purpose that we are having here so that's how we approach that in terms of the money that goes with it and the investment in the creative economy and in terms of one of our remits which is to make sure that people of the nations are properly represented I would say it's a positive step it's a significant amount of money for an organisation that faces quite substantial financial challenges in the next few years Emma Harper picking up about reporting and using evidence because evidence is really important there's so many skeptics out there we get tweets about it and question time audience member choice is one that I read about reporting Scotland content and even referendum coverage so how would you communicate to the public if you are doing an evidence based investigation for instance looking at some of these issues we have a very established editorial standards procedure which would now cover the BBC fully as we have covered other broadcasts in the past it remains that people if they have issues about accuracy impartiality or BBC news should go to the BBC first but if they're not satisfied with the response they get from the BBC they can then come to OFCOM so if there are individual issues that people want to bring to OFCOM they're not satisfied with the BBC's response they will be able to do that for the first time they'll be able to go to an independent regulator for an independent assessment and we have a good strong process we have a robust process and we have a strong track record in dealing with issues of independence and impartiality so then how do we ensure that that is communicated back to members of the public in a wider people that might not complain or need feedback we ourselves will try to make it clear where we can do and I think it's where if constituents come to you and ask about how they can approach this we would encourage the word to be out there that this is a new opportunity for people if they go to the BBC they're not satisfied on editorial issues that they're not satisfied with the response from the BBC they then have an option for the first time to come to an independent regulator for an independent assessment of that Can I just pitch in a couple of additional thoughts on that this committee will be aware that there's a new memorandum of understanding that exists between OFCOM the two Governments UK and Scottish and the Parliament and that includes provisions in it about us giving evidence here as we are today at the Liberal Economy Committee in the past few months as well and we're very open to doing that as frequently as necessary to respond to exactly that type of question about ensuring the public really understand the nature of some of these quite difficult things that are based in evidence based regulation Thanks Can I say I welcome what and I hope we will see you again Have you made any kind of estimate in the number of complaints that you expect to receive in your first year as a regulator There is a capacity issue obviously There is a capacity issue so I encourage people but not too much as well as that Yes we have done we have been recruiting extra people we have a reasonable idea if you look at how many complaints at the moment go to the trust which the BBC Executive deal with and they go to the trust on a period if you like you know it's a fair guess I would say to say that people might see the fact that there is an independent regulator there may be an increase in the number of appeals if you like I think we are in a position that we feel confident that we have the capacity to deal with those complaints but we have extra we have the possibility of recruiting extra people if we see that it's going to be necessary So have you put a number on it? On Scotland or in the UK No we haven't put a number either on the UK or on Scotland I would say though in terms of our editorial standards team Glen was talking about the increase in number of colleagues that we have from Ofcom working in Edinburgh now part of that is my team and part of that is the team that will deal as part of Ofcom's editorial standards team with complaints Richard Lochhead did you have a supplementary on that? It's a general question I've got a supplement In terms of the process for complaints someone would contact themselves how would you then investigate that particular complaint if it came into yourself? You mean generally on complaints? If someone had a complaint about a BBC programme editorial content what would your process be? There's a general process we obviously deal with a lot of complaints already and complaints on privacy for example come straight to us anyway rather than to the broadcaster but the complaint comes in the team making initial assessment of the complaint to see whether it needs further investigation and then the team will investigate and that's a process of potentially going looking at the complaint on the face of it is there a case to answer in which case going back to the broadcaster potentially talking to the complainant a little bit more about the complaint and whether the questions if we have them and the making our assessment of whether the complaint has validity or not we would then issue an initial finding on the complaint which people can comment on and we would take that into consideration and issue a final decision on the complaint I've got a slightly general question of a tangent clearly Ofcom have your responsibilities and today's been talking about the BBC but nowadays someone can just set up their own news channel and they can set themselves up as a community news website or whatever it may be and they can just go on and do their own thing have you got any general comments on about whether the regulatory framework is keeping up to date with today's technologies? Well we licensed in the UK it's always a challenge because technology is moving very quick and we have to try and keep up with it essentially for example to take TV channels if it looks like a TV channel that needs to be licensed by Ofcom and we would tend to and therefore it has to abide by the Ofcom regulations so if we become aware of channels and we do monitor that are not licensed that look like TV channels we will go out and impose that or close and done Well it's a news channel that just occasionally uses broadcast Well I haven't come across that much have you? Tavish Scott did you want to come back in? It's a different question altogether I actually wanted to ask about your wider responsibilities over telecommunications because I asked a question earlier on about broadband to the BBC and the rollout and their affordability for people who don't have superfast broadband to access online content that in this case the BBC are more and more doing I know that Ferry's Telecom are looking at expanding operations into different parts of Scotland they think there's a business venture they don't need any public money to do it A, I know it's probably a more question for Glen Preston but have you had those discussions with Ferry's Telecom where are they? My understanding is that at the moment is that so who ultimately makes that decision and what can be done to make sure that in this case some parts of Scotland do otherwise you're just not going to get superfast broadband possibly could do so The first thing to say is that we absolutely recognise the challenge that you articulated in the session with the BBC earlier on and that's a conversation that we've had both with the Scottish Government so with Fergus Ewing as the lead Cabinet Secretary and with the Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee generally some of these big infrastructure challenges that exist to roll out broadband particularly to rural areas in Scotland it also picks up the point that Lewis MacDonald made earlier about Scotland not being a single place in that regard and that's something that we're going to have to look at across our regulatory responsibilities so not just in relation to fixed broadband for example but mobile coverage and you asked the question of Kevin earlier in relation to our broadcasting responsibilities too Ferry's Telecom point yes we have spoken to them again in the next couple of weeks I don't know the answer the specific answer to the frequency point but I'm very happy to find that out and let the committee know it is worth saying that we did a digital communications review last year which is all about things like opening up ducts and poles on the BT Infrastructure Network to allow for exactly this type of increased competition so that we can improve broadband services across not just Scotland but other parts of the UK too that's in our next annual plan which we'll publish in the course of the next few weeks as well that will be a critical thing that we'll be doing in 17 and 18 to follow up that proposition to really try and drive improvement we are working with the UK government on their broadband universal service obligation I think there'll be more details on that in the context of the UK digital economy bill in the coming weeks and also with the Scottish government on their R100 programme which commits to Superfast by 2021 and there are some significant questions there I think for both governments about how these things interact and we're very happy to facilitate a conversation between them so that the government can achieve those public policy aims so that people who want to access content online as we've discussed will be able to do so I guess my concern is that governments can set these big targets but years and years and years will go past before anything happens to people that we actually serve as selected members so here we've got a commercial company put up the masks, make it happen and at the moment I'm being told they can't and what I'm asking you to do is to go and find out why that is and get on with it rather than be waiting to 2021 for anything to happen We're very happy to make that commitment to come back to you with the detail on it On that subject, in the context of the BBC you increasingly get a situation where people are paying a licence fee and some of those people aren't going to get the services as the services increasingly move online and that must be something that you'll push very hard on I must say, you know consider all around my time sitting on the executive at Ofcom is spent with my colleagues who are much better versed in this than me talking about how the various tools that we are looking at the various pressures that we can put on individual organisations and the discussions with government about how we can speed up broadband roll out across the UK and particularly I think that one of the strongest tools that the annual report on which shows how the nations and how the regions of the nations are doing and rural areas in particular The one other additional point I would make there is that not all of the solutions here are going to be regulatory so we won't have all the kind of tools in our kit to be able to respond to that and it will require both governments UK and Scottish industry and it was helpful to hear the BBC say that they would engage in some of these sorts of questions about the fact that their services exist for people who might not be able to access it Stuart McMillan you had another question did you? Just in terms of the announcement from yesterday from the BBC I would assume that the Ofcom were made fully aware of the announcement before it took place but fully aware of the details Not the details, I was told the day before that there was going to be an announcement and I was given the broadband on it yes Could you just tell us Can you expect a member of the Ofcom board to be appointed by Scottish ministers? Yes, we're just about to start that process We're talking to the Scottish Government as you say, the appointments made by Scottish ministers about the job description and we hope to go to advert in the next handful of weeks and then ideally have a candidate appointed before this Parliament breaks for recess with somebody coming in to post over the summer so August September time that we would hope that the Ofcom board member would be in place If there are no other questions from members I think we'll wrap up now and I'd like to thank both our witnesses for coming today and we'll now go into private session, thank you