 Hello, everyone. Good morning or good afternoon, depending on where you're based. A very, very warm welcome to you all. And thank you very much for joining the first discussion in this Land Dialogue webinar series, organized in partnership with the Ford Foundation, the Land Portal Foundation, the Tenure Facility and the Thomson Reuters Foundation. My name is Zoe Tabri. I'm the Land and Property Rights Editor at the Thomson Reuters Foundation, which is the charitable arm of Thomson Reuters. And I'm delighted to be your host today. The Land Dialogue Initiative promotes the importance of recognizing legal ownership of indigenous people and land rights as a condition for achieving national and international goals for forest governance, food security, climate mitigation, economic development, and human rights. The series is going to be running about once a month until October, with each webinar tackling a different topic. Today, we're going to be talking about indigenous people's forest governance, specifically how to preserve forests and reduce carbon emissions. To help us set the scene a little bit, indigenous people and local communities manage more than half of the world's land. Their biodiverse ancestral lands are key to the people who steward them and to the planet we all share, but governments only recognize indigenous and community legal ownership of 10% of the world's lands. Our webinar today is going to be the opportunity to look at the report called Forest Governance by Indigenous and Tribal Peoples by the FAO and FILAAC and its main arguments. We'll be discussing how governments can move forward, formal recognition of territorial rights to indigenous and tribal territories and their forests, and to ensure those rules are respected. But we're also going to debate how global and national plans for preventing deforestation, forest degradation, and carbon emissions should ensure safe living conditions and use new investments to support traditional livelihoods. I'm joined by a terrific panel to discuss those issues today. I'll hand over to each one of them for some opening remarks. We'll then have a discussion for about an hour and finally take questions from the audience, which should take us to just about 90 minutes. The webinar will take place in English and be simultaneously translated in Spanish, in French, and in Portuguese. And to access the live interpretation, please just use the channel that's located at the bottom right of your screen, the one with the little globe icon. If you do have a question, we'd love to hear it, please post it using the Q&A button again at the bottom of your screen, not the chat box feature. And I'll then fill those questions to the panelists so we don't have to go through the all too familiar pains of people muting and unmuting themselves. Please do feel free to tweet using hashtag Earth Day 2021 or hashtag land dialogues and follow the live tweeting from the LAN portal and tenure facility Twitter accounts. Finally, in the interest of transparency, I should add that today's session is being recorded and you will receive the link afterwards. I also want to apologize in advance for any internet or sound issues on my end. If you hear any kind of breaking or fuzzy sound, it's not you, it's me. And so I'll try to give the floor as much as possible to our panel so you hear from them. I'm now going to briefly introduce our panel and I'll then ask them to talk about their experiences. We're joined by David Kamovitz, who is the manager of the forest and farm facility, which provides direct financial support and technical assistance to strengthen forest and farm producer organizations representing small holders, rural women's groups, local communities and indigenous peoples institutions. Before this, David worked for the Climate and Land Use Alliance and for the Latin American Regional Office of the FAO, and he is authored or co-authored more than 150 publications about rural issues. Dr. Mirna Koningemkein of the indigenous mosquito community of West Pham in Nicaragua is a teacher and physician who has been working for over two decades to advance the rights of indigenous women and knowledge on indigenous people and the impact of climate change. She's currently the president of Philaq whose mission is to promote development with identity and to ensure the rights of indigenous peoples through these linkages and consultations. Silvana Baldobino is a lawyer who graduated from the University of Lima. She has more than 18 years of experience in both the public and private sectors, designing and implementing public policies and strategies related to environmental issues and indigenous people with an emphasis on biodiversity conservation. And right now she's the director of the Biodiversity and Indigenous Peoples Program of the Peruvian Society of Environmental Law, SPDA, where she has been working since 2006. And finally, Carlos Espinosa Pena has 33 years of experience in community forestry and territorial governance working in both Costa Rica and Panama. He currently works as a full-time professor in forestry engineering at the Faculty of Science and Technology at the Technical University of Panama. So an extremely esteemed panel indeed and let's dive straight in. So David coming to you first could you set the scene a little bit and talk us through some of the main findings of the recent report by FAO and Philaq Forest Governance by Indigenous and Tribal Peoples. Thank you Zoe and hello to everybody. It's a pleasure and an honor to be here with you. The study we did which focus on the forests and indigenous and afro-descendant territories in Latin America really tried to answer the question. We hear a lot from the Indigenous organizations that they are the guardians of the forests. What does that mean? What does research tell us? What do the scientific communities say about that? And we went and we looked at about 300 different studies on these territories almost a lot of which came from the last couple of years and a handful of things really jumped out of us. The first thing that jumps out is just the size of the forest in these territories. We're talking about an area as large as a good part of Western Europe. Two and a half, three times the size of more than three times the size of Bolivia very large areas with 14 percent of all of the carbon in all of the tropical forests of the world with a large percentage of the biodiversity. So these forests are I like to say they're too big to fail if we lose these forests that have disastrous consequences for the climate and biodiversity for all of us for everybody concerned. Second we found that these forests have traditionally been much better conserved than the other forests of Latin America while the rest of the large forests have been disappearing. Up until very recently these forests had remained largely intact in part because in fact the indigenous and afro-descended communities have been good stewards. Their cultures and their production systems are much more attuned to conserving these forests and also in part because government policies have supported the indigenous and afro-descended efforts to some degree in Latin America. They may be remote forests, they may be forests with not so fertile soils but that's not the main reason these forests have been intact. It's really a mixture of the lifestyles and production systems of the communities themselves and policies that have been favored. The third thing we found was that even though the indigenous and afro-descended forests have been much better preserved they're now increasingly under threat. The risks are growing, risks from expansion of livestock ranching, from drug dealing, from mining, from oil production, from land speculation, from forest fires and we can no longer assume that just because these forests have been well protected in the past that they will continue to be well protected in the future unless the international community and national governments lend their support. Every day indigenous, environmental and land defenders are being killed as we speak for defending their territories and their forests. Finally what we learned which is very important is that we know what to do, we know it works. There's very solid research on what actually achieves the results for reducing deforestation, for reducing carbon emissions and for conserving biodiversity and it basically comes down to five key things each with very strong research backing. The first is we need to strengthen indigenous and afro-descended territorial rights, land tenure, support for stopping illegal invasions of land that's already been titled, addressing the issues of forest and mining concessions that have been put on these territories without communities free prior and form consent. Second, compensating communities for their efforts to protect the forests and to keep out external actors that are trying to encroach. That's not a question of paying them so that they don't convert the land to something else like you might do with a private landowner. It's a question of giving them the resources they need to protect their community and to protect their forests. Third, a policy environment and technical assistance and financial assistance to support indigenous community forestry and indigenous agroforestry systems. Greater support for the maintaining and revitalizing traditional knowledge, ecological knowledge, respect for traditional cultures and finally greater support for indigenous and afro-descended organizations with an emphasis on women and youth. Those are the main findings of our study and I think this is the first time that the United Nations has come out with such clear, consistent, coherent findings and at the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations we're very happy to have been part of this process. Thank you. Thanks very much David. Lots of time here which we'll come back to but I think you make a really strong case for indigenous people really being the best guardians of a forest to tackle the climate crisis so thank you. Mirna, I'd like to come to you now and in your experience I wonder if you could tell us kind of what really tools, what are the tools that we need both to get the ambition and the funding that are necessary to secure the rights of indigenous people who as David's explained kind of playing really this critical role in managing forests and biodiversity. Definitively, to provide the formal recognition of territorial rights, it's not just about financial problems. What we need here is to change the way the forest is perceived, how the territory is perceived. We need a total change of how we see and value these resources and I think that's the first approach that we make from indigenous people. It's not just about financial resources, although these are very important, it requires a change of attitudes first in relation to indigenous peoples and second in relation to how we finance the activities that they have to do with these resources. For indigenous peoples, we consider that there are two options to increase resources. First, we need to change, we need to flexible the big funds that have to do with climate change and that have to do with natural resources. Until now, only 2% or less of these resources come to indigenous communities. All the resources are left in an apparatus of the different institutions. So, from indigenous peoples, we are advocating to get resources directly to indigenous peoples and for this, different mechanisms have been created, designed by indigenous peoples, funds led by indigenous peoples, funds that make the participation of indigenous peoples in the management and administration of these resources. It seems to me that that is a first element that we must take into account if we want to combine the vision of indigenous peoples with the possibilities of having resources. And obviously, as David has pointed out in the previous presentation, it is to finance the things that indigenous peoples are already doing. The indigenous peoples are protecting these resources. The indigenous peoples know how to manage these resources. So, it is to arrive with financial support, with technical assistance and with a change of mentality different to work with them and to guarantee that we can change the model of investment in indigenous territories. Thank you so much, Mirna. All excellent points. I note from what you've said, the need to change the way we see and perceive forest going just beyond sheer financial support. But also what you said about indigenous people having already for ages, centuries, been protecting and managing those resources. So, not talking about reinventing the wheel here, but just recognizing this role that they play in formalizing it. Silvana, I'd love to come to you now and talk a little bit about the Peruvian context. Could I ask you to tell us a little bit about the development of legislation in Peru to support indigenous peoples' claim to ancestral lands? Could you give us a few examples and perhaps some of the obstacles you encountered along the way? I think it's important, before explaining the role of Peru, to thank the indigenous peoples for the role they have and the great weight that society has placed in their arms. It's important what David mentioned about the amount of forest that is preserved by these peoples and that if it is done, as Mirna mentioned, without budget, without necessary tools to do these activities. And I think that by rescuing a little what Mirna said before entering the specific question, it is important to break the paradigm. It is important not to continue living from romanticism. It is important to generate mechanisms so that this work that is already done is not only easy at the financial level, but also to continue to generate capabilities, continue to strengthen leadership, recognizing roles of indigenous peoples and the descendants in the conservation of what the planet came from and all the natural resources associated with them. So I think that these tools, or this report from the FAO, help us to continue putting in evidence the need to highlight those roles. In the case of Peru, and not to take too long, there has been a significant advance in recent years in the adjustment of the national legislation with the improvement of policies to ensure the maintenance of indigenous peoples, understanding the maintenance as the first step in recognizing the multiple rights that must be worked in favor of the peoples. There is still a long way to go. We have a wide range of legal security of indigenous peoples, very large. We have many communities, which is the way we organize in Peru, pending titles. Many communities that have been 10, 20, 15, or up to 70 years waiting for the recognition by the state of this title, which finally believes them as legal owners, because the possession and the right has it, of this space that it occupies. Even a few more years ago, there was a title of property in favor of a native community in which the title was received, the San Francisco-Balonese community in Loreto. It was the grandson, 70 years waiting for that document. But legal security is the first step. It is the first step towards development, and there I also want to rescue what Mirna said, to stop seeing things in a sectorized or stagnant way. We need to see the scenario or the forest in general, all the services associated, everything that is provided, everything that is needed. If we only focus on one point, we do not achieve the development of the peoples, which is what we finally want. We have to generate these indigenous economy, recognize the value, traditional knowledge, food security, the path is very large, but it is also quite risky, and there comes an additional point, because indigenous peoples are constantly facing illegality, and this illegality generates death, generates constant assassinations in the protection of natural resources. And that is another weight that is on the shoulders of indigenous peoples, and that as countries and as a state, we should light this cart and work together, but work together in a participative construction, work with the peoples so that from their vision we can see how we make an integral management and how we support doing this. And again, these tools give us information with the serility and evidence that the FAO provides. So if we already have evidence, now we have to generate the changes. And I think that is something that in Peru at least we will try to continue advancing. We are advancing, there have been adjustments, but there is still a lot to take to what is finally a recognition of the peoples and the legal security of their territories. I don't know if I answered your question. You did, absolutely, and many much more. So thank you for that. Again, I note from what you say that Lan Tenir, as other panels have said as well, very much is the first step in recognizing and formalizing indigenous and forest rights. But then also, as you've noted, that many communities in Peru and indeed around the world still have, are still waiting for titling and that there is therefore still a very long way to go. So thank you. And Carlos, finally, but by no means least, we've talked a little bit about conservation areas. But of course, indigenous lands also house intact forests by diversity, carbon and more than half of the Amazon. So how can conservationists and land rights defenders work more closely together? Are there any examples of where this has worked well? And what are some of the challenges we should bear in mind? I've said before, the comrades who have given me the opportunity. In Panama we even have, since the beginning of the last century, the first indigenous territories were recognized. However, even today there are more than 25 territories that have not been recognized and that are still fighting from the structures of those villages to achieve a full recognition. It seems to me that from the organizations of conservation, although it is true that there are many organizations that support the struggles of indigenous peoples, we also find organizations that compete for resources. And a while ago, in Verna, he told us that the issue of financing activities that indigenous peoples are already doing is fundamental to be able to achieve, that within those conservation strategies, those strategies that aim in all our countries to achieve the conservation of biodiversity, but at the same time to achieve mitigation, the effects of climate change require resources. And those resources can come in the way in which the entire system is really recognized, including the organizations that work for conservation and that they are not indigenous peoples that recognize those governance systems and those capacities that locally exist in indigenous territories. It seems to me that there has been advanced, but we still need to work a little more. Here in Panama, we see it, sometimes organizations that, although they claim space to achieve those conservation goals, it still costs them a little to recognize that within the territories there are local organizations that have been fighting for a long time, and that those results of that fight can be seen. They can be seen in the statistics that they say that within indigenous territories are the best preserved areas of the country, including the territories that are translated to protected areas. In those areas of transfer, where there is indigenous peoples, there are fewer problems than in the areas where indigenous peoples do not exist. And that must be recognized. And there is a little challenge that we have ahead, how our local, national strategies can be added to that recognition of the role that these peoples play in the conservation of biodiversity and in climate change strategies. Thank you so much, Carlos. That was also fascinating. And really the point that you make towards the end that you've encountered or seen far less issues in territories with indigenous people than in those that don't have indigenous people, so really a clear testament to their role here. I just want to encourage our audience as well for those who may have joined since the start, that if you would like to ask a question, you'll get the opportunity to go through those later on in about 30 minutes or so. If for now you wouldn't mind posting them on the Q&A function at the bottom of your screen, we'll make sure we fill those. And for those of you also asking about interpretation, we have a little icon at the bottom right of your screen, which should be a globe and should give you live translation into Spanish, Portuguese or French. So that's available to you. David, I'd like to come back to some of the points you were making about the report. This, of course, being a landmark report and research and formally recognizing the role that indigenous people play. I wonder since the few weeks, I believe it's nearly a month or so that it has been published, what reaction have you seen from policymakers and activists alike? And do you think that the report and this growing body of research can provide an impetus for change and act as a tool for policymakers? The reaction has been really amazing and encouraging actually just to give you one example, I was talking to somebody from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in the Dutch government a couple of hours ago who told me after they had seen the report, their first reaction was they should probably be investing more in these issues with indigenous peoples in Latin America. The report got an immediate response from the presidency of COP26 saying that they were committed to these issues of indigenous peoples' rights and that indigenous peoples would be well represented at the COP. We hope that is the case. It got a positive immediate response from the CPD Secretary and it's gotten a positive response from a number of ministers and ex ministers. It's really pretty reassuring. I said recently and maybe a little bit tongue-in-cheek but the thing that was most surprising about the response to the report is that nobody was surprised by our findings. Ten years ago when you would say things like this, people would look at you like you were crazy, like you were romantic, like you just had these ideas about indigenous cultures that clearly had never gone through an indigenous territory and you've ever seen the reality and there's just now just so overwhelming evidence from studies on the ground, from studies from satellites, from studies done by so many different people and from the testimonies of indigenous villagers and indigenous organizations and after-descendant villagers and organizations that this is reality. This is science, it's not science fiction, it's not fantasy and the response hasn't been encouraging but moving these big international bureaucracies, I can tell you from somebody from FAO, is not easy. Figuring out ways that these bureaucracies can interact with cultures that are totally different and probably much more advanced than bureaucratic culture is not easy and so it will be a process but again these territories are too big to fail. This is life and death for the people in the territories and for their cultures and it has so much importance for so many reasons that are not carbon and that are not biodiversity and that are not just water but for people outside the territories. If this biodiversity and if this carbon and if this water gets lost it will have major impacts on the world as we know it and so these territories are too big, too significant to fail. Thank you David, I hear you completely on you know the challenges of A, interacting with the bureaucracy but also making sure that the different bureaucracies are able to work together and then as you say putting that in the context of what we're talking about here which is not a nice to have but a life or death situation and you know territories which entire communities depend on for their living. Mirna, if I could come back to you now, I'm particularly interested in the role that traditional knowledge plays in all this and particularly in the governance of forests. You've spoken before about you know the role of community knowledge and indigenous led to grant making and finance. Can you tell us a little bit more about that please? Sure, sure. I would like to begin by sharing a large story. When COVID, I'm sorry I'm sorry, I should move to Spanish. Up to you, whichever one you prefer. When COVID started, a community in the border in Ecuador, the Siacupai, 700 inhabitants and when they found out that some of them had already COVID, they went into the forest and started to look traditional medicine and with traditional medicine they began to cure the members of the community and take care of the elders and then they came back with the medicine and share it with other communities. The traditional knowledge is part of the life of the communities and the way in which they really produce, how they manage the forest and how they take care of the members of the community and this traditional knowledge is the one that provides them food. I have been reading for example of the case of the Ache in Paraguay that 40 years ago were killed by the government to control their territories and when you talk with the survivors what they say is that they were giving them salt, sugar, they were killing them because they changed their diet. So traditional knowledge has to do with food, has to do with medicine, what it has to do with their spirits that protect their forests and their waters. In my region where we recently had two hurricanes, when you talk with the people in the community they say we have hurricanes because our forest was destroyed and the spirits are mad with us, the spirits that protect. So all of the traditional knowledge is based on the worldview of indigenous peoples and this worldview is organized through the internal regulation of the community. That internal regulation defines where you plant, where you the sacred site, where you protect the river, where you can do agriculture and this regulation is the one that defines the way in which a community is governed. So the governance system defines and protect and ensure that those regulations are respected by men, by women, it defines the role of each member of the community and it defines the model of development, what we would call model of development from outside of the community. That regulation is what defines the governance and when there are external factors that affect the forest and affect their territory it destroys this governance structure. That's why you can find through the report you can see that the areas where this governance structure still function there's less deforestation, there's more protection of the forest. So this is a very important part and one important element of that governance structure is the relationship between human beings and the rest of elements of nature and one aspect of that relationship is sharing reciprocity and that sharing and reciprocity is the basis of what we call indigenous led funding. They are the ones that teach us how to share, how to complement resources. So when we are talking about indigenous led funds we're talking about a system of reciprocity through which external donors can complement their resources with the resources that indigenous communities are already putting in place to conserve forests to conserve nature. That's the basis of indigenous led funding and that's the basis of a different concept of philanthropy that we want to promote. An intercultural philanthropy that value that traditional knowledge that value that reciprocity practice that value relationship in which no one has more resources than other. All of the resources are valued and all of them can complement and they can create a basis for a better work. Thank you Mirna that's that's so interesting actually what you say on and I think we'll come back to this but that model of reciprocity and indigenous led funding where you know resources are shared and it strikes me that this is the kind of system that the rest of the world would have much to learn from not just in terms of forest governance but how to apply that to to dealing with multiple crises. So thank you. Silvana I wanted to come back to to you you know you've talked a little bit about the kind of Peruvian experience but what do you feel is the missing link here? What tools or policies or norms do you think whether in Peru or globally we're missing to enhance really the conservation and forest protection that indigenous communities already do much of the time? Figura también que se presenta mucho en Perú nosotros contamos con más de 7000 peruanos en la isla en situación de aislamiento y debemos generar mecanismos para su protección seguir fortaleciendo al estado para que esta población estos pueblos puedan mantenerse a salvo a resguardo y no verse afectados por ilegalidad por la pandemia por ejemplo que ha sido muy fuerte los pueblos indígenas en el caso peruano antes de ver y pasar a explicar el esquema de qué necesitaríamos legalmente creo que es importante mencionar que el covid nos ha evidenciado que hay no solamente retraso en el otorgamiento de derechos en seguridad jurídica del territorio sino también en salud en educación en alimentación o sea es evidente y todos sabemos que es población vulnerable pero tenemos peru esta ahorita en el año del bicentenario creo que tenemos como 200 años de atraso en el reconocimiento del rol y el valor de nuestros pueblos indígenas y creo que es necesario tomar medidas urgentes e integrales que abarquen todos estos temas mi herna hablaba de la interculturalidad y yo creo que es necesario asumir el rol o presentar o volver a su país intercultural pero intercultural de ida y vuelta para que podamos estar en equidad e igualdad de condiciones si seguir asignando derechos sin reconocer sin dar herramientas sin generar mecanismos de defensa no soluciona el problema sino es una primera etapa pero las brechas las necesidades la pobreza o el abandono se sigue incrementando es que necesitamos necesitamos cerrar esa brecha o por lo menos continuar de manera comprometida y fuerte en segura en asegurar la tenencia tierras proteger a los seguir protegiendo a los pueblos indígenas reconocer o reconocer las reservas indígenas que falta seguir protegiendo a las que están y esto pasa también por un compromiso político y un compromiso de estado en la asignación de recursos creo que el peru por ejemplo hacer un país con una población indígena muy muy grande debería tener parte de su presupuesto asignado para trabajar o para asegurar los derechos de los pueblos indígenas en diferentes niveles salud educación seguridad curídica del territorio protección de pueblos indígenas en aislamiento porque si no nos vamos a cerrar las brechas y las desigualdades se van incrementado que es algo que nos ha evidenciado muy fuerte la pandemia cuando teníamos pueblos indígenas varados en determinadas regiones no habían sistemas de alimentación rápido como explicaba mirna no se conocía las costumbres de qué tipo de alimentación se tenía que dar y eso en el caso de nosotros resulta bastante triste hasta por hasta cierto punto porque te das cuenta que realmente no conoces a lo que es gran parte de tu población y si no conoces no valoras y si no valoras no ayudas a resolver estas debilidades y ahí pasamos al segundo punto más allá de mejorar la legislación y de seguir generando estas normas hay que hacer que esa legislación sea efectiva hay que asegurar el cumplimiento de estos camis porque de nada nos sirve seguir llenándonos de normas y creo que somos muy creativos en generar y generar si es que se quedan en el panel en el papel el esquema del financiamiento es bastante es bastante crítico por ejemplo y ahí retomó a lo que decía mirna al principio tú no puedes buscar el otorgar el financiamiento sea internacional o sea nacional si es que no lo haces con flexibilidad e interculturalidad si tú pretendes imponer esquemas es donde no estás reconociendo realmente el valor la forma de vida las tradiciones las costumbres de los pueblos indígenas entonces hay que trabajar en esos esquemas que se adapten a sus necesidades y que sean fáciles de ejecución y que ellos mismos puedan construir desde su propia visión para que realmente esto sea efectivo porque si tú y sigues imponiendo el modelo en el caso peruano 200 años nos muestra que esto no funciona si ya ya comienza con el primer primer paso que es el reconocimiento sigue con el segundo que es la valorización de lo que tienes y reconoce te como un país con una población indígena tan fuerte que debería ser parte de nuestro orgullo como como peruanos el tener un país con tanta riqueza cultural entonces creo que por ahí es donde debemos comenzar a generar y construir gracias thank you Silibana and actually all of what you say here really interesting but I I know and what you've said as well a point we haven't quite touched on yet which is you know the impact that COVID has had on all of this and you mentioned distribution of food of course there could be vaccine distribution and biodiversity loss and so Carlos I wanted to come to you and and ask what you had observed in terms of how has the pandemic in in the past year influenced the way in which indigenous people safeguard their their forests and also to what extent has the pandemic increased the threats that that they face for those forests I want to start by commenting a little bit with what Silibana mentioned a moment ago for Peru because it is a little bit the radiography of what we have here in Panama also the same problem says that there is only to propose an example of that lack of real value to the people of our indigenous people Panama has a budget that annually exceeds the 20 million dollars, however, a development plan is formulated for the 12 people for the 100 indigenous people who represent the 12 percent of the population of the country and that development plan only adds up to about 88 million dollars then there is a warning there is true the difference in the distribution of resources tells you that there is indeed no equal treatment to a population that deserves to receive the same benefits and that must have the same right that has the rest of the country said that and we are going to tell you the truth that it presents us then that among the main challenges that we have at this time is that full recognition of these villages and the role they play in the country in terms of conservation of biodiversity and moments in which the country as part of its development strategies aims even to promote natural tourism but and cultural tourism but led to what areas to which sectors and to benefit whom we are going to propose as part of these strategies indigenous territories as an attractive however we do not give them the conditions to improve that quality of life that they have in law we have a great opportunity that is true because in these territories as very well it has just been said there are some governance systems that represent a grant of conservation through means of life that are sustainable then we must destination the necessary resources to strengthen those processes that are already in progress within its within its reality within decisions taken by the own people in the framework of its culture and not try to impose models because if we review at this moment a lot of what is in those development plans that are carried out in the communities in many it is designed or to respond to different communities has been designed at the level of institutions and and they intend to land in the communities with solutions that do not really respond to the ungratefulness of the people and therefore they do not manage to be sustainable I think that although we are aiming to develop implement sustainable solutions we have to present the truth that one thing is the social sustainability that in fact can be assured in the governance systems of the communities but the other issue is and very well we have said it since a moment ago all those who are intervening here is the issue of financial sustainability but we are not going to achieve that financial sustainability by giving the migrants to the people we need to give solutions with focus and we are going to support productive initiatives must be with the focus of business but attending to the culture of the community and on the other side I think I miss we miss a lot a lot a lot on the subject of political sustainability if there is no political sustainability everything else will be boring everything else is going to be weak what we have to work towards to achieve that our people in our countries rather have some policies that ensure that sustainability that these territories demand as a retribution as a power for what they have been doing for many years for the rest of the populations that inhabit our nations thank you Carlos it's quite telling what you say in terms of you know the the share of the overall batch it in in pattern that was allocated to indigenous people and forest governance and the real gap in that and also the point you make about not trying to impose different models or models that aren't fit for purpose on indigenous communities I have perhaps one final question for you David before we I might start taking some questions from the audience earlier as I see we have dozens of those David going back to the impact of the pandemic in the past year I wonder if that's something you've observed whether and for this specific report or in your work or research more more broadly just the extent to which threats against indigenous people and forests have increased during the past year as as governments roll roll back environmental and social safeguards in the name of boosting economic growth is this something you have captured or looked into at all well the first thing to say is that there's been a process of government rollback in land America that certainly it starts before the pandemic depending on the country some countries 10 years ago some countries five years ago where we're seeing things in many countries go in the wrong direction in part because of economic difficulties in part because of political changes with the pandemic things have gotten a lot worse and they've gotten a lot worse for at least three or four different reasons the direct impact of the pandemic on the indigenous population and afro-descended population in general but particularly on the elders and of course the elders are key for traditional knowledge are key in terms of maintaining the relationships with the past and traditional cultures so that's been a very big blow against many different peoples and many communities the second thing has been that the pandemic has caused serious problems for people to be able to sell their products and to get access to products so communities that depended on tourism that no longer have tourism communities that depended on going long directions to sell their forest goods or agricultural goods that find with lockdowns that they can no longer that the markets where they used to sell are now being closed by governments and we're seeing governments themselves that are totally distracted by the pandemic who can no longer send or no longer want to send people out to the field to stop the invasions to stop the illegal mining to stop the illegal logging so it's really opened up a space for greater threats for greater risk for greater attacks on the community and then finally at the beginning of the pandemic you start you saw a big drop in the price for a lot of products not all of them gold is the price of gold has been high during the entire pandemic but at the beginning you saw a decline in a lot of the agricultural prices a lot of the timber prices and that was reducing the pressure but now it's gone in the exact opposite direction the price of beef in brazil is much higher today than it was two years ago the price of soya is much higher so all these high prices for these commodities that are going up are putting more and more pressure on these territories thanks david and i see and i remember as well from from our series last year that we we had so many questions that we didn't have time to go through them all and so i'm going to start by taking some from from the audience so do keep please posting them um mirna this this one struck me as is perfect from you um could you tell us a little bit more about indigenous led funding and how it actually works how does what does that look like is is it a kind of discussion is there one person who's in charge could you could you talk us a little bit through how how those decisions are made at the level of one community echo que los pueblos indígenas hemos venido promoviendo ahora hay en nuestra experiencia distintas modelos de fondos liderados por indígenas por ejemplo el tenure facility que tiene como un mandato e contribuir a fortalecer o a garantizar el la titulación y la gobernanza de los territorios indígenas tiene un modelo mixto tiene una parte de su junta directiva indígenas y otra parte de su junta directiva expertos en el trabajo con pueblos indígenas porque tienen un enfoque intercultural o el fondo que está manejando david por ejemplo en faul forest farm facility este es un fondo que también busca cómo combinar esa visión de pueblos indígenas con una visión de una entidad como faul entonces hemos venido como pueblos indígenas tratando de promover la creación de modelos de financiamiento que sean más innovadores que busquen incorporar este enfoque de filantropía intercultural que busquen respetar los aportes de los pueblos indígenas que valoran lo que los pueblos indígenas están colocando en cualquier actividad tenemos otros que son puramente indígenas por ejemplo el foro internacional de mujeres indígenas tiene un fondo que se llama a mi este fondo está liderado por mujeres indígenas ellas son las que seleccionan a quien se financia y ellas son las que monitorean esto tenemos otro fondo que se llama el fondo pa huanca y este es liderado por indígenas de las siete regiones del mundo y abarca proyectos e iniciativas locales en las siete regiones del mundo pero lo que quiero dejar claro es que si queremos que haya financiamiento flexible para los pueblos indígenas si queremos que llegue a las organizaciones indígenas tiene que cambiar el modelo de financiamiento y tiene que haber una participación del indígenas en la forma en las decisiones y en la forma como se manejan los recursos y tiene que haber un proceso de acompañamiento a las organizaciones para que puedan manejar sus recursos y haya más y más recursos llegando a los pueblos indígenas thanks marina that's fascinating and so much to learn in terms of finance but also as you say philanthropy and speaking of of lessons we can learn from indigenous people one question i've just noted here and and this can be perhaps for either a silbana or or carlos um someone was asking is it possible to transport traditional knowledge on force management outside of indigenous territories for example to pass on those lessons to small holder farmers is this is is this something you've you've seen happen or do you think is is feasible which whichever one of you would like to go first bueno si usted se empieza yo entonces si bien entiendo lo que nos están diciendo es un poco de traspasar los conocimientos tradicionales sobre gestión del bosque hacia agricultores en general no bueno yo creo que como experiencia sería bastante importante y creo que tendríamos que ver como compatibilizamos las visiones porque en el caso peruano hay un fuerte componente de pueblos indígenas o como o comunidades campesinas con gestión del bosque particular en lo referente a la a la sierra respecto a la amazonía entonces no es que haya un un modelo único son diferentes esquemas dependiendo no solamente del suelo de como que tipo de conservación se da sino también de como los pueblos implementan estos conocimientos no y eso sería verlo a menor escala con la agricultura dependiendo más pequeña que generalmente en el caso del peru responde a a dinámicas migratorias que trasladan conocimientos de una u otra forma si esa agricultura menor escala que es población rural es creo que sería una experiencia muy interesante no conozco realmente si se está dando en peru creería que lo podría haber escuchado pero no pero sí creo que sería deberíamos partir en el caso peruano de reconocer los conocimientos tradicionales de valorarlos y de ahí difundirlos para que estos se puedan aplicar el mismo estudio de la fau nos dice que entre el 2000 2016 han sido los pueblos indígenas en el caso peruano los que han mantenido conservado mejor los bosques y evitado la deforestación y lo dice el estudio más incluso que otras herramientas de protección o conservación de diversidad en nuestro país entonces creo que el modelo necesita un estudio o un análisis para poder replicarlo en diferentes sectores y adaptándote claro a los conocimientos o a la forma de vida de los diferentes pueblos en el caso de los pueblos indígenas por ejemplo en la zona de la sierra peruana o las o las comunidades que pueden encontrarse en la costa también porque depende mucho de la dinámica por por ése lado yo creo que podría ser interesante yo creo que hay muchos modelos que que nos pueden servir de ejemplo y en el caso de panamá pues se ha estado hemos estado justo en un equipo que se ha integrado en fao en el apoyo del ministerio de ambiente en donde estamos participando varios consultores analizando algunos modelos tradicionales que pudiesen servir de de guía para implementar iniciativas de restauración fuera de los territorios por ejemplo uno de esos modelos en los sistemas agroforestales tradicionales que se practican en territorios indígenas cuando hemos conversado con algunos especialistas de algunas centros universitarios ellos se resisten a reconocer que estos modelos de sistemas agroforestales tradicionales pueden ser de gran apoyo para proceso de restauración pero hemos entendido también que esa resistencia a veces está porque tenemos un esquema mental adaptado a que un sistema agroforestal tiene ciertas condiciones unos marcos de establecimiento muy cuadrados y de repente ver un sistema tradicional en territorios indígenas en donde estos esquemas cuadrados no existen entonces hay un rechazo hay hay una negación de que ese es un modelo agroforestal que está bien manejado basado en un conocimiento tradicional y que pudiese llevarse hacia hacia otras regiones no indígenas aprovechando los principios del modelo más que la forma aprovechando los principios del modelo sin embargo también tenemos que reconocer que así como hay ejemplos muy buenos de manejo de recursos en alguna medida también nos podemos encontrar en territorios indígenas con algunos ejemplos no tan buenos y y eso no se puede perder de vista y en alguna medida pienso que ha sido un modelo tradicional como el aprovechamiento de alguna fibra para producir cesterías por ejemplo que era algo tradicional en los pueblos indígenas de panamá ha recibido la influencia de las fuerzas del mercado que han presionado por una mayor productividad y eso ha conducido a que las comunidades entonces exploten sobre exploten el recurso presentándose algunos problemas con las poblaciones de las especies que naturalmente le servían de fuente de materia plima a las comunidades y hay comunidades que están enfrentando entonces desabastecimiento ya al hacer algunos ejercicios de costos de producción están perdiendo porque hoy día la materia prima les queda muy lejos porque las palmas de donde esprayas las fibras las derribaron un poco empujado por la presión del mercado que les exigía y les exigía y les exigía unos unos niveles de productividad más allá de las capacidades del bosque entonces hay buenos modelos hay modelos que no tan buenos y creo que debemos tratar de volver a lo tradicional y eso incluye pensar un poco también verdad que en eso tradicional el conocimiento de los pobladores va a ser fundamental para poder definir los niveles de producción que una zona puede tener al momento de aprovechar un recurso no podemos exportar un conocimiento externo creo que debe ser una suma de conocimientos pero teniendo presente verdad que si las comunidades han estado ahí por años por siglos manejando su recurso bajo un sistema y le ha resultado entonces hay mucho que debemos aprender de eso thanks Carlos that's fascinating and a real good example of as you say the power of just decades and decades of tradition and how nothing can really replace that we're getting quite a few questions on on the research so david i'm going to put one to you this one is asking whether FAO is going to carry out similar reviews of the situation of indigenous people and their forests and territories in african asia and with your past experience whether you could perhaps summarize or anticipate any regional differences actually we just had a discussion yesterday morning about whether we would do that in african asian i don't know the answer we haven't really decided but in terms of what you could anticipate i think there's a couple things to say the first thing is that one of the reasons that there are so many studies in latin america and so few studies in africa and asia which would make it much harder to do something like this is because in the past latin american governments have had a number of relatively progressive policies compared to the other regions there are more titled indigenous territories in afro descent and territories in latin america than in africa or in asia there's more experience with payment for environmental services to communities in latin america than there are in the other regions there's more experience with government support for commercial indigenous community forestry in latin america so if you don't try the policies it's very hard to say whether they work and many african and asian countries have never tried them that being said what you could do in africa and asia is you could look at the areas that are being managed by traditional communities and you could see how their forests are being managed whether they're being managed well whether they're disappearing what we can learn from that there is a fair amount of ethnographic research on that and i think it will show what it's shown in latin america which is that these cultures these peoples that are linked to long periods coexisting with the forest generally have relatively good forest management but that starts to break down when the threats increase from external areas when they increase from various different outside forces and it becomes more and more important for governments to step in i mean if we think of someplace like papua west papua in indonesia the people of west papua have been conserving their forests for millennia and you can go and you can see those forests and you can see they're there and you can see that people have been conserving them you wouldn't need all of these policies and all of these laws and all of this titling and all of these payment for environmental services if it weren't for the fact these external threats are now growing heavily and so you do need institutional support you need laws you need protections that you didn't need historically and one just to finish one one last thing that i've seen and a lot of the questions that people are asking is well how do you make this happen politically how does this work and i would say if we look at how it worked historically in latin america because latin america did advance much quicker than the other regions on the one hand you had broad movements for democracy you had and people understood in part of as part of the movement for democracy the pluriculture plurinational societies are part of democracy so the brazilian constitution the bolivian constitution so many of the new constitutions that came with democratic reforms in latin america have these sort of progressive policies and some of it came from international support but i think going forward really the political momentum for this a very important piece of it and that's why we've emphasized it in our report is that when other groups in society realize that their water that their climate that their well-being that their biodiversity depends fundamentally on these forests being intact and that in fact there are guardians out of the out there of these forests who know what they're doing and can do a good job that that creates the basis for a negotiation that could be quite favorable to indigenous peoples and african communities thanks david um that's that's a really good point and reminds me of what mirna was saying on needing to change um and the other panelists needing to change fundamentally um not just kind of funding to indigenous people but how we think and and see the forests um mirna actually one let me just say one last thing on that because as people know we are starting to see today the beginning of um joe biden's leadership summit on climate with all of the world leaders the fact that there are six indigenous representatives out of 120 or so people there that wouldn't have been the case 10 years ago and that shows an increasing worldwide recognition of who are in fact the guardians of these forests thank you and and as you say well a really opportune moment and i think this discussion couldn't be more timely on on earth day um mirna coming to you this this was one question that was addressed to you from the audience um which was asking how can we avoid that funds sent to indigenous people end up being used or appropriated by indigenous leaders um just it seems to me from what you were saying that the collective structure and management would would avoid this but um i wondered if you had any thoughts indigenas de base definitivamente cualquier financiamiento debiera de asignar recursos para apoyar el desarrollo de las capacidades organizativas de los pueblos indígenas de la misma manera como se asignan recursos a un organismo no gubernamental para que funcione bien definitivamente debiera de haber recursos para que funcione bien la organización comunitaria esa organización comunitaria está basada en principios de reciprocidad y colectividad pero está expuesta a muchas amenazas está expuesta a muchas veces a imposición de de prácticas de corrupción de parte de una empresa que quiere instalar una empresa minera por ejemplo y trata de comprar al liderazgo indígena en algunos países pueden ser las mismas instituciones públicas del estado que dividen a la comunidad o sea la historia de división de los pueblos indígenas es larguísima a lo largo de toda la historia de colonización entonces nosotros decimos que cualquier financiamiento debe de tener recursos para apoyar el fortalecimiento organizativo debe de tener recursos para desarrollar las capacidades de los pueblos indígenas en en alfabetización financiera por ejemplo o sea o en desarrollar sus capacidades para ser interlocutores en el diálogo y la negociación hay muchas áreas que requieren fortalecimiento organizativo de los pueblos indígenas la única forma de evitar que esto vaya a un solo sector del liderazgo es fortalecer nuevamente ese modelo organizativo comunitario y esa debe de ser un compromiso de cualquier tipo de financiamiento thank you mirna that all excellent points um we were talking about kind of governments rolling back environmental safeguards and just the cost of of inaction um celibana one one question we have for you from the audience is why is the peruvian government taking so long to recognize the territories and the rights of of indigenous communities um do you see any motives behind this be it economic development or or other why is it taking so long y yo creo que esto pasa por un tema de decisión y voluntad política durante muchos años se ha invisibilizado los pueblos indígenas en el peruno no había una voluntad de de reconocer sus derechos de hacer los efectivos y también pasa porque así como lo reconoce el el estudio de la fao también pasa en perú que la ubicación de los territorios indígenas es donde se encuentra la mayor riqueza de los recursos naturales a todo nivel sea el recurso vos que sean diferentes tipos de recursos naturales entonces las visiones de los diferentes gobiernos siempre han ido sobre la base de un extractivismo más no de un trabajo una conservación colectiva que es lo que poco a poco vivenciando ahora siempre durante muchos años también hubo este divorcio entre conservación y pueblos indígenas se creía que sí se implementaban múltiples y diferentes medidas de conservación del territorio era a través de modelos del estado y no se reconocían los derechos de los pueblos que estaban ahí esto ha ido cambiando los paradigmas han ido modificando gracias no sólo a la ciencia la evidencia sino al algo que decía mirna al al fortalecimiento de las organizaciones al empoderamiento de los liderazgos y a la capacidad de generar boserías con conocimiento técnico con igualdad de condiciones en la negociación el tú a tú no solamente la el ser reactivo sino el evidenciar ellos que conocen los temas que los manejan y que aportan soluciones para una construcción participativa eso ha ido haciendo que a lo largo de los años en el peru se haya ido evidenciando las necesidades un movimiento indígena más fuerte líderes más comprometidos líderes que manejan más los temas que quedan levantado su voz con un conocimiento ya más práctico técnico y hasta científico de lo que se necesita entonces ante esta ante esta evidencia ha sido imposible que el propio estado no comience evidencia la necesidad y la urgencia de reconocer los derechos de los pueblos indígenas y es por eso que esto ha demorado tanto ahora todavía falta mucho por hacer pero ya hemos empezado y tenemos un buen tiempo yo diría los últimos años ya tratando de hacer eso y también viene el acompañamiento de los diferentes actores a ser que esta lucha reivindicativa se va cada vez más fuerte y que se reconozca los derechos a nivel nacional se es creo que ha sido un proceso político técnico de conocimiento y también de fortalecimiento de las propias organizaciones que tiene que continuar y que tiene que seguir creciendo para seguir construyendo pues este país inclusivo que es lo que queremos los peruanos no thanks to the banner one question actually I wanted to put to you Carlos I think this would you know apply well really globally but curious in the Panama context the question from the audience was what proportion of indigenous people's rights are are permanent versus what are temporary rights that might have to be renewed periodically for for example can we take the assumption that long-term security is is guaranteed for for the vast majority of these indigenous people un paso importante que se ha dado en los últimos 10 años en ese en ese reconocimiento es avanzar hacia la titulación de cada uno de los territorios que quedaron fuera de las comarcas para más tenemos la división política del país tenemos provincias son estados para o departamentos para otros países y las territorios de indígenas se les da el título de comarcas pero no todas las comarcas que tenemos en este momento tienen han sido equiparadas a nivel de las provincias ya tenemos algunas comarcas tres de las seis que tenemos que tienen ese status como si pese en un estado un departamento una provincia pero tenemos otras que aparecen dentro de provincias del resto del país como como una división política administrativa mucho inferior eso eso creo que debe cambiar debe cambiar y todos los territorios deben tener el mismo status que que tienen las provincias para poder tener esa vocería a la hora de que se está discutiendo presupuestos y que se está hablando de atención a las necesidades básicas de las comunidades hace unos años se creó en 10 años se creó el vice ministerio de asuntos indígenas elevando una dirección nacional en el ministerio y justicia a nivel de un vice ministerio lo ideal sería tener un ministerio de asunto indígena hace poco la actual administración este año ha creado dentro del ministerio de ambiente una dirección de asuntos indígenas entonces cuando uno va a las reuniones del ministerio de ambiente y en donde se va a tocar temas que afecta a territorios indígenas ya uno ve un director que tiene que velar porque a esas comunidades se les repete en todos sus derechos y que tengan pues plena capacidad de auto determinar lo que quieran o no quieran hacer en su territorio yo creo que eso es positivo sin embargo sigue siendo una necesidad que las estructuras de los distintos territorios como lo han dicho las compañeras y pasen por un pro un proceso de equiparación de las condiciones con las cuales se atienden a otras instituciones del estado porque son como lo dije algunas comarcas tienen el mismo estatus de las provincias sin embargo no tienen el presupuesto en sus sistemas políticos no tienen o cuentan con los con el presupuesto para poder esto administrar mejor sus necesidades y así no se puede ya puedes tener el estatus pero si no tienes los recursos de como si nada creo que ahí falta trabajar bastante estamos en este momento en un proceso en panamá en tiempos en donde se está reclamando la necesidad de que pasemos a un proceso constituyente nuestra constitución actual es de la década 1970 a principios del 70 ha sufrido una serie de modificaciones en el tiempo pero sigue manteniendo la esencia de la constitución de el de los años 70 que es una constitución de corte militarista fue preparada por un gobierno militar y todos los gobiernos después de la época militar la han mantenido en temas como el reconocimiento pleno de los de los pueblos indígenas por ejemplo no tenemos títulos especiales como si los tenemos en la constitución para el canal pareciera que el canal es mucho más importante que atender las necesidades de los pueblos indígena y creo que ahí se está pidiendo que en este espacio constituyente que se está reclamando se incluyen temas como el pleno reconocimiento de los derechos de los territorios de los pueblos indígenas y son muchas las voces que están exigiendo que eso se dé para lograr que efectivamente nuestros hermanos indígenas puedan tener los derechos que y el reconocimiento pleno y las capacidades desarrolladas portalescidas para poder administrar su destino thanks Carlos really really interesting to hear from the Panama experience um one question we have from from the audience that was directed to to david but i think applies really to to anyone here um is that how can we use the findings of the study the study that david presented to put pressure on brazil's president gerbil sonaro who is doing the complete opposite of what we're advocating here in terms of of indigenous rights and in fact this question i think could could be applied to to many governments in in the region so how how can we use the findings of of this study to apply pressure on on governments oh that's somebody else to answer that question yo creo quizás puedo yo responder yo creo que el estudio por el hecho de que está planteando con un enfoque más científico occidental digamos lo así lo que nosotros los pueblos indígenas hemos dicho desde hace desde siempre que somos buenos protectores del bosque somos los guardianes del bosque tenemos conocimientos tradicionales pero ahora lo está diciendo la fado entonces ahora hay más herramientas para el liderazgo indígena para presionar y presentar ante distintos sectores en los países porque tenemos que entender que en los distintos gobiernos no todos piensan igual en el en los gobiernos hay que identificar las ventanas y las puertas que están más abiertas a escuchar los planteamientos de los pueblos indígenas y acercarnos a esas ventanas y esas puertas para comenzar a presionar desde adentro por ejemplo los hermanos y las hermanas de Brasil en medio de covid han logrado algunas victorias jurídicas por ejemplo han logrado que su derecho a la salud sea reconocido porque se fueron directamente a la Corte Suprema de justicia entonces ese es una herramienta que ellos pueden utilizar en estos momentos y el estudio lo que hace es dar generar argumentos y además abrir una puerta de alianzas con la fado con el philac con otras instituciones que ahora tienen con el estudio más herramientas para presionar por los derechos de los pueblos indígenas pero también tenemos que ver la relación entre la presión internacional y lo que se puede hacer a nivel nacional y este es un año importante para que los pueblos indígenas podamos presionar desde el nivel internacional y por ejemplo david hablaba ahorita sobre la presencia indígena en esta reunión de biden ahí hay hermanos de la masonía y obviamente el interés internacional sobre la masonía puede servir también como una puerta de entrada para presionar al gobierno de brasil thank you thank you mirna that's that's an excellent point um silbana carlos david would any of you care to elaborate and again not just looking specifically at the brazilian government but how we can use this this research to to put pressure really on on action and change specifically from governments but well one thing i will say because i think it's important is that one of the excuses for not supporting these territories in recent years has been that they weren't threatened which may sound funny but you read a lot of their research from 10 or 15 years ago and what it said was we don't need to title these lands we don't need to provide compensation for these areas it doesn't make that sense to invest in these forest because these dark forest aren't under threat anyway what our study shows is that these forest weren't under threat before but they are today and so if they don't invest in them then they will start losing these forest much quicker than they're realizing it and that could be a major problem that they haven't anticipated so i think that does raise the level of concern and the urgency for decision makers that perhaps they didn't have before that's really interesting point david just the sheer urgency of the situation now beyond any kind of cynical or financial and imperative silbana carlos just wanted to give either of you the the opportunity for any final comments either on this the question of how to apply pressure on governments as we'll be wrapping up in just a moment we have to use it to generate changes and to be able to modify the things we consider to be so bad but what we have to change is how we value the evidence depending on who is the messenger also because as myrna says if this is something that is being said and that is being known for a long time from the own forests we don't always have to wait for someone's back to realize how things happen in the world that is something that was already expensive to many of the countries that we have this component of this indigenous population so strong favors back gives us scientific evidence of the complement but I think that we also have to learn to respect what the basis of the knowledge of our peoples for the conservation of our forests is not always waiting for the complement but taking actions on the basis of what we already know as countries because we know it but we have to recognize and value it and I think that that refers to me that we have to take things in a different way but still everything adds up and with this now we have to move and generate the changes that we need to continue to strengthen not only the rights of indigenous peoples but the role they have to preserve the natural heritage at the world level thank you so much and then Carlos just very briefly if you had any final thoughts yes I think the document gives us information from an independent perspective we could say about the role that indigenous peoples play in conservation and with that information and with all the organization levels that today have achieved at an international level the indigenous peoples have to try to strengthen through alliances to achieve political sustainability that is required so that there is a full recognition for that which is fundamental if there is no political sustainability the decisions can go and come we have seen in many of our countries that initiatives are very well walked suddenly they fall into government changes and in the end who loses are the most vulnerable communities and in that sense achieving those alliances with all levels in the framework of national conservation strategies is fundamental you have to achieve alliances who are fighting to achieve the conservation of biodiversity and mitigation of climate change we have to have clear truth that this is going to be possible in great measure if we strengthen the strategies of the different peoples who are greatly contributing to achieve those conservation goals so it seems to me that over there we can achieve that political sustainability which I am referring to and avoid that with the constant changes of government in some regions the things the advances are then retrocessed that demand resources at times when they can be limited resources in many of our countries thank you so much Carlos and yeah a todos muchas muchas gracias para todo thank you to all of you so much for joining we've covered I think a lot of ground and I'm sure we could go on for for hours but I'm conscious of our panelists but also the audience's time and thank you for sticking with us this long if you haven't had a chance to ask your question yet I think we've managed to get through most of them but if you haven't please do get in touch on Twitter or with the land portal team as well and the next webinar in this series which I would strongly encourage you to join will take place next month and it will focus on the connection between land rights biodiversity and global health and specifically how we've all been directly affected by biodiversity losses and diseases over the past year so in the meantime I wish you all a pleasant week and I hope you and your loved ones stay safe thank you thank you