 Welcome to Toffy TV, I am pleased to say we are joined by two members of the Everton Business Matters podcast Rodge making his Toffy TV debut John Blaine with Noe. That's the one It's always good to get the name right, isn't it? So you're here like two weeks ago, John? Yeah, not loads has changed but But loads has changed I feel as well. Is it? Well We've made we've made a sign. Have we? But a start so What have you thought so far about? Obviously not the transfer business, but just the the general business sense of what's been happening so far at Evan Rodge, I'll start with you because you're you're always Mr. Positive Thank you. I'll be Mr. Positive here because it's lovely to be here. Thanks for having me on I think there's the biggest elephant in the room Around the whole transfer business this summer is that we haven't got any money to spend Now at one level an actual fact or are you just throwing that in I think I think it's an actual fact that the wage bill had become unsustainable at Somewhere just south of a hundred and forty million quid a year It's now come down to maybe just below 130 million quid having got rid of Wayne and Funez Murray and At that level but we have real trouble because John and he'll talk more about this has Heard from reliable sources and they don't come much more reliable than John that we need to get the wage bill down to 110 million and We've got a whole bunch of players all of us think that there are a number of them that need to go Yeah, probably double figures Some of them are on very very high wages Sandro and class and alone are taking a million quid a month out of the club Very very difficult to shift them and and whilst we may be able to find short-term cash to pay a transfer fee or two to increase the wage bill without any outgoings is is impossible and Unsustainable and so until we can actually you know see some headroom there And bear in mind also that this forthcoming season the clubs revenues are going to be lower because there ain't no European football It's going to be difficult And then you've got Bramley more potentially tying up some of the owners capital So I think it's tough for us to find the money to pay the wages That's what I mean by we've got no money I'm being as positive as I can. Well, there is I mean, it's that that's the half them TV Is that is that from a is that from an FFP perspective or is that just from a natural cash flow perspective? It's got nothing to do with FFP It's got nothing to do short-term cost control because we've got plenty of headroom inside of those We've got profits coming from player trading from from sales of Lukaku John Stone still money coming through from those So we're in no danger of breaching those regulations But I think from Masheri's perspective as the as the largest shareholder he wants to make the club self-sustaining and a wage bill of a hundred and forty million quid is just not sustainable in the long term which I agree with fully Now had you bought players with some resell value and had some of those players that were bought performed To a level that make them attractive in the market. You might be able to shift them on more easily That's the real problem for me John. Come on you your poor faces jump in here I mean everything Roger says makes sense and we talked about this on well, yeah He does sometimes here We talked about this on everything business matters and whilst the broad brushes We don't have any issues with short-term cost control which is the Premier League rules or financial fair play Which is your way for rules some of those are around how much you can increase your wage bill by So as Roger says the set affordability to one side You can only increase your wage bill by seven million quid compared to the year before If you're going to bring in players, which we hope to with whether it's rich Alston and others You know, and I guess the new baseline now is hundred grand a week. Isn't it? You know, maybe it's hundred and twenty it's 140 grand a week. So you could almost say well Rooney's gone Rich Alston comes in you're pretty neutral on your on your wage bill But you've got the drag of the transfer fee. Yeah So whilst we might not be in danger of breaching those things and mainly because the UEFA rule is around A three-year rolling average type thing. Yeah, we'll lose money in the next account. I guess, you know, we'll make a loss So that sends a flag up then as far as your way for a concerned Which will then after counter and I think what's happening here as Mishiri is saying enough You know the the chief exec previous chief exec has sort of gone on a bit of a spending spree Let's not forget. It's not just about players. It's other spending within the club I mean anyone who listens to me, you know with my shareholder association hat on We would always want to know what we're all these other operating costs going there, you know And and they become really quite material when you're playing around the edges Yeah, so I think he's just pulled the chain and he said hang on a minute This needs to be a bit more structured. The key thing is which he said at the general meeting and Rogers said it just now Is around sustainability. You can't keep coming to daddy and asking him to give you another 10 quid out his wallet Yeah, you've got to be able to fund what you're doing through your own resources And particularly with a huge cost on the stadium coming along So it will be interesting to see how it's reflected in the accounts But we won't see it those accounts and probably till October November 2019 Cash flow clearly shouldn't be too much of an issue because we're pulling forward, you know We've effectively taken loans on the advance payments around the final payments on stones and some of the payments on Lukaku So cash flow should be okay, but we have got players there who are on big wages who we might struggle to move on So whilst the director of football and the manager are talking about shipping out a lot of players They're also talking about bringing quite a few in as well I'm not sure about your numbers by the way of 140 becoming 110, you know from a from a you know What the salary bill needs to be but clearly it's 2025 million too high. Yeah, and that needs to come down The trick of course is do we want it to come down by 25 so we can go back up again with new intake? Yeah, or is it be we want to get it to a more sustainable level and Clearly it all comes back to a percentage of turnover And I will you know, I'm on a bound to say unless our commercial performance improves We're gonna have this problem all the time. Yeah, because there's a glass ceiling there Yeah, and that's only just going down. Absolutely because of no European So that's not gonna go down by much for European football is I mean, that's only Not really. I mean that but every penny counts at the end of the day I suppose as a fan, you don't really care about any of that Do you because you all you care about is buying a player in you don't want to you want you don't want you don't want any of that I know you hear is that your skin so all any a lot of people have a that you from that conversation is that with skin Yeah, don't want to certainly not skin. No, I know and it's not sell to buy either. No, I know But that's that's what people will hear and that's what people like to hear because people like to moan We are a club of moaners. I have no problem saying that we are one of the worst fan bases when it comes to Having any kind of patience or any kind of A plan but that because comes from years of not having a plan. So therefore fans of are now in a mindset that What you expect it's ever football club, but I I personally I I agree with machete when it comes to this I want us to be self-sustaining that we have to be we have to be you know All these people who say why why isn't the billionaire putting his hand in his own pockets Because the billionaire might and always be there like Abramovich or Chelsea and we might and always be there I like the idea of having a stadium that is paid forward in a way that is clever and the city and all that and I like I want a club And we've seen this face hand John in the last week or so I want a club that does things right that when a new kid comes out Knows how to get it out knows how to sell it seems today. Napoli have done a deal with amazon So that they can sell all their kits everywhere around the world because Amazon obviously can get you everywhere on the other the other deals I want to see ever doing clever clever deals that get our Get our club all over the world. You're talking there about something which is quite dear to our hearts And in fact, it was the um, it was basically the theme of the last podcast, wasn't it? Which is around innovation Yeah, you know We can all do a me too, you know, I mean, you know We will criticize or observe or comment on the club having a limited number of commercial partners And it was clear that in the last six to 12 months the club has focused on trying to increase the number of commercial partners And but it almost becomes like, you know, man United have a tire partner. So we get one, you know So that's fine. Yeah, you know flattery, you know Imitation and all that sort of stuff But to make a difference you need to be innovative You need you need to do something different Whether that differentness is a bit like Southgate did for England and the world cup and suddenly letting journalists talk to football As wow, that's radical, isn't it? Maybe we should be doing things that others are not doing being first movers Adding to the evident first which we used to be first at so many things But the bottom line is and we're like a long playing record when we do the business matters thing Is there's only a limited number of commercial You know income streams and one of those is player trading. Yeah now You and I talked off camera while we're, you know You were setting up and the like and we talked about how that shall from across the road do it, you know They're far closer to sell to buy than we are It's just that they do the buying first and then quickly do the selling. Yeah, yeah Where we seem to get ourselves as you say in this negative half empty Sort of thing that says we must sell somebody before we can buy somebody Well, that's what people were saying. What how many weeks ago a couple of weeks ago? So how come rich arson may for a week? No being announced while we're talking but certainly we'll be announced the next day So we haven't really sold anybody of any substance But clearly the manager thinks we're not going to bring in one player two players three. He wants what four five six And yet we also know we're probably like the other shower. We've got to ship out six seven eight nine ten as well That's a lot to do in the next two or three weeks And it's a bit of um It's a bit of a standoff game, isn't it who blinks because we end up with players left on our books Dragging 50 to 100 grand a week off of the wage bill who are not going to be used That's an issue. So it may become a bit of a fire. So only at the end just get them off the books and and take the hit I think our suspicion or my suspicion is that Everton still are Really very poor negotiators And that would be the point I would make both commercially Still got so much ground to make up with these partnerships and innovations And I think we're very poor communicators as well. I'll give you an example of poor communicators We've done this Algarve cup Okay, there were a few issues with streams and passwords and people couldn't get on and the few went went up course But what annoyed me about that was not so much the problems with the streams But why afterwards there wasn't just a quick, you know, sorry five minutes with Marco How was that then because I barely heard him speak Yeah, and and I think we really if we've appointed the director of football and we believe in that Then to be honest with you, I'd like to have seen a 15 minute 20 minute interview with him Available to everyone to understand what the philosophy is here What are we actually trying to do? You can debate whether it's sell to buy whether we need to get rid of a few before we bring something in We need some changes on the playing staff and and you know Who is making those decisions and and then who's doing the bleeding negotiating because they seem to pay top dollar And we always seem to sell at the low end and and that's probably quite frustrating You talk about an interesting point there, Roger and again, we've talked about it, you know that That you know that perfect little loopy circle type thing whereby certain things happen Which enable you to do other things which means you've got to do those and interviewing the manager for example You know if you went to barrier somewhere, yeah, and and he spoke I guess to a couple of print journalists Yeah, and and so there's no video. So there's no there's no listening to him There's no seeing him brands might have been there you could have had three There you go could have had three minutes with him now in the past when I've challenged the football club about this Particularly in the cumin days, for example, they would say, ah Manager doesn't want to do it. You know, well, I'm not a minute. He's an employee Correct, you know So when the manager is saying I want to pay lots of money for that player He's so you know where that money comes from comes from marketing and commercial be You know commercial outcomes which are driven by content and this that and the other So Marcel you've got to come out and talk to fans You know Marco you've got to come out and talk to that it's two minutes for crying out loud It can be while you're walking from the tunnel to the coach if you like But you've got to do it It's interesting you bring up like the stream and and that kind of thing Why why are we putting this stuff behind? I mean, I know I'm one to talk same reason you did But we've got a youtube channel there right and Excuse me if I'm being ignorant here But youtube is the biggest thing in the world for putting out videos essentially for free Sure, and I remember telling this to Robert Elston and his eyes lit up and I told him you he didn't even know youtube was free till I told him and We've got all these partners. Yeah, we've got all this content. Yeah, so why aren't we putting them on somewhere? We can have free. We're more eyes Because I get comments about our shows all the time from fans of all different clubs They're not ever telling us to just come and watch it because people Go on youtube and they fall in surfing around they fall into a youtube hole Where they watch one thing and one thing leads one other thing one thing leads one other thing And they end up watching us and we might be someone something that just happens to interest them Yeah, right. So our sponsors get that get that get that random person on and so why on ever do you know Why aren't they getting all these partners? But all their logos in the background sticking on youtube where everyone can see it Instead of sticking it behind a paywall where again all they catering to is the people who are already in Who are already on board with ever it's just That's a me Okay, I'm not business minded But that to me baffles me that you are hiding content. All right. Yeah, so we talked about this on the last podcast It's all about wanting to grow your business. And if you are a challenger brand, which sadly we still are Then you've got to open your doors to everyone And and if you want to attract new partners, then you're going to put the put their names out there To every avat�ian in the world can go and watch ardening or whoever it was against everton tonight Or we've got an interview with marcel brands. It's presented by xyz everton's partner here lots of logos and accessibility You've got to open your doors to everyone. You know and that mentality comes from The top. Yeah, it comes from the top down and and and you can link it to communication And we brought this up in the last podcast as well. Whereas denise Trying to do a great job Doing the very best she can over a month ago gives a wonderful interview to the echo where she says God we're meeting every day. It's brilliant. We've really got to act quickly We're going to take these decisions There's going to be lots of incomings and outgoings and i'm going to be the facilitator of all of these deals So I think we've got to write four or five weeks later when now it's happened to go Well, where is it and she can't do it on her own? So either that permeates the whole organization They're open to communicate if brands want to talk to sky he goes and talks to sky Yeah, why on earth would you put a gag on him as it was especially when they're the people paying the bills Absolutely, and we you know, we've banged on for a while as everyone does you you might have said it on this I've got remember now, you know a plan if there's a plan, that's great above a plan strategy, isn't it? Which is what's our general picture here? So on one hand we've got this desire to increase income which hopefully reappears on the pitch as an asset So somebody somewhere thinks all right. Well, there's a benefit to members Of the club and a benefit to share So yeah Season ticket holders of the club that they can watch these games for free You can only make that a benefit if someone else has to pay for it Yeah So then you say someone else has to pay for it and they can pay 3.99 per game or whatever it was for the bundle And that may be at a certain level of planning sound like a good idea. Yeah Except that few stuff that comes along when the password doesn't work when the stream's not very good When the first thing that happens on on the last of the porto game is someone tweets the link and tweets the password Exactly So then you're if you're going to pick a password But you know what do 2018 whether zero My feeling on that sorry johnny is is that the club, right? The club only have a limited amount of bandwidth, right? We've talked about this to use many So therefore they are stopping people from watching it because they don't want to exceed the bandwidth So that causes problems. So instead of thinking big and thinking let's show this game to the world by just sticking on youtube Which is what they should be doing and there's no bandwidth issues. There's no bandwidth if you on on youtube I guarantee you that right so instead of doing that where everyone can see it And how about when you put it on youtube you say to all your all our commercial partners? Let's sponsor the boards on the side of the pitch. Yeah, or let's have this Let's just do what the americans do this game has brought you by Black wall ties or this game was brought to you by some Nonsense Exactly this game was brought to you by kit bag this whoever this game This game was brought to you in association of fanatics because we're waiting our new kit going by it now What's wrong with doing that on youtube with the platform As they fit everyone where you know what someone just happens to be watching the stream sees the game and goes A takish fan, let's say who fault who fault because I tell you one thing, right? It's a toson. Yeah every time we put toson on it on the description right of our video our videos go through the Reference over mention it now so you can put them on this one. So yeah, so those by toson So why aren't we doing that the game last week the airdening game? There was more Fans takish fans there to watch toson than there was ever fans So why aren't we saying let's use that? Why are we I think that I should be running the club john with in association with you because we we take a view that says There must be a number of people in the club who could give the speech you just gave yeah But we're not acting upon it. Yeah, so there must be stuff going on. Wasn't there which we don't know about I don't know because there must be because it's too obvious to do I've sat in a room With with the x cheek of the executive and I told them all these things four years ago And nothing was acted upon these these this is what I struggle with at heaven And now we've got a new new regime and I know it's only early days But I I am I struggle with the fact that they try and they try and hide The things we do rather than shouting Manchester City have got over a million subscribers on their youtube channel Why because they put everything on it. They just feel it with for free That's really what happens People watch it and then it goes viral and then god these are great money from then as you say are from your main sponsors Because you say to sports pacer Look at this lot that are going to be seeing your stuff. You say that to you know umbro fanatics blah blah blah blah blah And I just love to know how many people actually paid for those streams Yeah, so so the so-called upside of increased revenue must be minuscule But we talk don't we about brand value increase in brand value that the dilution and brand value by people Happily saying on twitter or whatever platform bloody typical ebbson, you know, you can't even get on it's coming and going It's this that and the other the negative side of that far outweighs any upside So the blues are out there now just stick it all out on youtube If it was what if the game on sunday was one thing it was just an advertising for the new kit Yes, that's all that if I was if I was working at the club, that's all I'd be thinking This is an avatar the one we just launched. Yeah for our new strip. That's been out three days It's the first chance to see it. I know the ladies team played against Liverpool That was the first chance to see it and the for the ladies That was the first chance forever to see it I would be screaming and if I worked for a kid but I got fanatics I'd be saying Why are you sticking this game behind the table when we're trying to shift that kid Get on youtube and let everybody see it So because this is my thing that I've had for years where I'm out selling the kit in the shop If I'm a if I'm a 10 year old kid and I walk into a shop whether I support anybody and I like that kit I'm having that kit. That's what I did when I was 10 I know things are slightly different now because you know, I think Rivalry's a more fierce now and But when I was a kid, well, I still see kids walking around Liverpool in Man City kits And if you go winter and go Yeah, why are you in a Man City kit? Well, I really like Kevin De Bruyne So I've got the kid. I'm a fan of Liverpool fan, but I really like that's fair enough Back to kids living football kids and yeah, Barcelona and Real Madrid. They don't like to support them But so why why do we always limit what we can do? We've seen this on 30 when we went to the kit launch. It was almost like a deity secret The kit launch When I sit where you sit and talk to him and pull We get back to this point of is that you're a calmer than me though Not off not off Is there a plan or isn't there a plan right and unfortunately both him and Paul think well, there must be one No, no, there must be things going on and I'm with you. There ain't nothing going on I think there ain't nothing going on because there isn't a growth mentality because they're not prepared to invest because nobody could even think Guess what come and watch tonight on youtube It's Everton against FC Porto buy the new awake it 10 pound off for the duration of the game There should be someone like that. She'll be someone roge She'll be someone in the club right now Who has part of their objectives is watch this video? Well, there will be someone watching to get the twitter followers be above two million Yeah to get the youtube channel beyond a certain subscription level and then when you've got an accountable individual Say he's called roger. He says well, I want I don't want that game behind a firewall. I want it free Because we expect this to happen if it is. Oh, well, we need the money. Well, let's get the money a different way I eat from the sponsors or whatever whatever from selling kits. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, people haven't seen the kit They're not going to buy it. How much do you think it costs to sponsor a game? I'm sure you know I actually don't see a game but I don't know. I'm going a home match I have no idea You sponsored games. No. No. I sponsor players. No be a matchday sponsor. It's not it's a couple of granders Absolutely. I mean, it's a silly amount of money. It's too grand. I mean, why not a huge amount of money? Surely it's 20 grand, isn't it? I suppose it's what you get them for it because at the end of the day, you don't really get anything back in him I mean, you build the package. No, no, that's insane. Yeah, you know because in the in a day and age where you can't get a Executive seat to go to some park because there's no space. I mean, they're already sold out for the season If you want to go corporate, you would have to what does that tell you? Well, there's not enough space. No, the price is too low. Okay, I feel that's what it tells you That's what I think that price is too low. Yeah. Yeah, if you've sold out your price especially its corporates as well Absolutely, because you're only going to be piggybacking. I mean, you know, They'd be piggybacking now off people. Yeah, do you want this off? William Hale or do you want that? That's the only way you're going to get a seat now. Is it? I mean, what I mean, the only good thing is one of the executive boxes I'll be free now because Wayne I'll have to sell it though Doesn't have to do anything. You can keep it. I suppose he doesn't have to. I'm sure he will Surely will because he won't be in it. Yeah But yeah, I mean, yeah, you're right, but it comes back to this Do we have anyone at the club because what I really do admire and and want to support Denise in what she's doing. Okay, put that on record 100% But I don't want to hear Anymore about getting our Everton back because I haven't got to clue what that even is. No I suppose it's the same as getting our country back, isn't it? No one actually knows what it means And if it means going back to the days when You know, it was a lot easier and Everton were one of the big five and you know That it wasn't all about money and we were the millionaires still and we could you know If we wanted the top player, we wanted alibor. We got alibor going the world's changed going us man United if they want The old man United back. I don't think they do I think they want I think they want to compete and want to know what be, you know Continue to be successful and want to keep building. I want to build that, you know build the other stand That's what they want. They want to grow. Correct. We just did not want to do that Yeah, but you get into a real really get into a very interesting place. Don't you because you know, I had to go The club last year sometime about Ticket prices remain stable And maybe we can justify that on growing the fans of tomorrow with the kids prices and all that good stuff But what's the justification for hospitality places staying the same price? So sure they put the prices up moderately But you've got to dip your toe in the water, haven't you? You think how much can we put them up before we start ending up with spare places? But it's sold out again. So that's goodness But inevitably and this lap when we get to Bramley more depending on what the capacity is We'll get to the place where demand Exceed supply. Yeah So what's the average fan going to do when you sit in the equivalent of the park and say in your pain whatever it is 500 quid for a season ticket and it goes up to 700 quid And then the year after it goes up to 900 quid and the year after it goes up to 1100 quid But the team's getting more and more successful because you're taking people out of the ability to to watch Yeah, because they can't afford it But it's a chicken and egg if you don't have the income You can't put the assets on the field if you can't put the assets on the field You'll end up with a less than full stadium anyway. And that's the conundrum I think the football club's getting itself into around the capacity of Bramley more What do we do the easy way is to have a small capacity stadium and always have demand for it But you're still going to have that issue. You've got to drive up your income answer higher ticket prices So we're going down a journey here with if those other towers which fundamentally are Matchday income itself not just tickets all the other stuff that goes with it Player trading and commercial income. They're pretty much where the money's got to come from Should that start now going back to what you were saying in the startage? Nobody needs in the executive in terms of goodness and should should this summer have been or Should they start be testing now and saying well, we've got a lounge there We've just it's the platinum lounge now. Yeah, you know and we're bumping the prices when just seeing well They have put the prices up this for this forthcoming season and they've still sold out Yeah But I first had that conversation with people at the club three or four years ago When when the account manager was looking after me was really quite buoyant because you know, it's may Hey, the season was only just finished and we've already sold out. Yeah, and I said, well ticket prices are too low then Look, I think the issue people just automatically renewing is yeah going back to this whole we want our everton back bit I think the problem is that our history is sometimes like a ball and chain And that's what holds us back Because there's an arrogance at times with everton. It's history and we've got nine league titles and that's so we don't need to change And we do a lot of great charitable work. So that's great. And that's the everton we want We don't want higher prices. We don't want more partners We don't want to have to play this horrible premier league game and if we want to be successful We have to play the game and and history The history in my opinion Stifles the ambition that the club needs to show You know, we are not competing with the top six anymore, but forget it. Oh, yeah, it's not happening, right? We'll be lucky to compete with west ham lester. You've just sold out 52,000 season tickets You know, we have the greatest potential Still the greatest potential the sadness is that it's been massively This opportunity has been massively missed because a lot of money has been wasted in the last couple of years Because of poor management Yeah, because we brought some new players in but we didn't do a great deal with the corporate structure and the management team and the senior managers And and you know right now we still haven't changed that very much And we're on our fourth manager and we're on another churn of the squad But we're 200 250 million down and you can't expect far how to keep on his money in his pocket So we need imagination and ambition on the commercial side of the club I don't mean increasing season ticket prices because affordability is important But you need to have a model for bramley more that you're starting to test now to come back to your point Which is yeah, people will pay 600 quid 700 quid a game, you know, of course they will Why not in the corporate arena and you can sell that out your pricing has got to be too low if it's sold out By may for goodness sake we're following a well trodden path there with new money Yeah, which is you overpay for players some are successful some are not and it's almost like Phases isn't it you know phases of play passages of play and perhaps this is the one that really matters Can we be quite hard-nosed decision makers move on those players who do not have A future with us for whatever reason but accept that we take a hit but take that hit Take it and get it behind you, you know It's like if you're investing in the stock market and stuff like that and you put stop losses on You know the share your boat is going down You've got to have the balls to sell it a loss because you're going to sell in a bigger loss later Now from a transfer market perspective, it's a rising market So actually the hit might not be as heavy as we think it is because some of those players we have bought Yeah, that kind of player in some markets will still have a value, but we're really going to drive it It's your wages, john Let me just ask you about how to transfer Is that real money in terms of business because you've already spent that money, right? Yeah, so if you don't get committed to spend, yeah, yeah, so if you don't get it back They still sound stupid, but that's still a loss because you've already spent the money the money's gone You've accounted for that. So if you don't get that, no, no, no, that's all I'm asking you Okay, so you buy a player 50 million. Yeah, maybe we just bought Richard for 50 million quid Maybe he's going to be our Rabinho because we still haven't had him yet, but let's say he's the man, okay 50 million quid, I think it's a five-year contract. He's on the books He goes down in value on the books by 10 million pound a year And there'll be some phased payment structure with Watford where over the course of a period of time We're needing to give them 50 million pounds So that cash is out of the business the value of the asset goes down on the balance sheet Let's just imagine he scores 30 goals in the next two seasons And we have to sell him for 200 million to ray on the grid in two years time He'd be left with a value of 30 200 million. We've made a 170 million pound profit That's how it'd be reflected on the balance sheet. What about someone like, oh, like let me just say What about an Ashley Williams? What have you already paid for and we just give him away for free now? That's all upside Because we have paid out the cash that's gone. Yeah. Yeah, but that's I'm saying that's accounted for isn't it? Yes, as long as it's already been paid for it Now you need to be careful when you say it's accounted for right Take the the example that Roger just gave where you bought a player for 50 million And he's depreciating at 10 million per year. Let's say he's on 200 grand a week Therefore he's costing you 20 million pounds a year Yeah 10 million in depreciation 10 million in wages. Yeah after two years You sell it. Yeah, well, you hope to sell him a profit Now what's going to happen when you sell him is you no longer have the future liability of the depreciation So you're not going to have the 30 million you're going to have to take that now Yeah, but you're not going to have the wages either Yeah, but the only thing you've actually spent as far as their accounts are concerned is those first two years So he's costing 40 million in the first two years The perversity of this of course is if you buy that player for 50 million and then you sell him for 40 million You've lost 10 million, haven't you but in the year you're selling you get income of 40 million Because you've sold him for 40 million so plus 40 And then you take off that year only that year what he's costing you per year, which is the 20 million And you're plus 20 in cash But you've got to take the balance sheet hit of the future value which was being depreciated Which is 30 million and then your minus 10. So you've always got to get in Listen, it's cash on one hand and there's an accounting value on the other the key is cash Which is you know, and when businesses go out of business, it's cash flow that gets them, you know Someone wants a bill to be paid and you haven't got the money So so if you owe me 10 quid and he owes you 20 You can be in real trouble if he doesn't give you the 20 because I want my 10 quid right now So there's some real fancy. Well, it's not even fancy really It's it's bog standard p&l and balance sheet manipulation that we can do But as soon as a player is fully depreciated Then selling him for anything is upside But you always get away with the with the salaries, of course. Yeah, and maybe actually williams. I don't know how long he's got left to run but This year if he's on 50 grand a week He's going to cost us two and a half million quid if we let him go on a free and he goes somewhere else We save two and a half million. Yeah, this year when you talk about a plan though here You'd like to think we've got a director of football And we've now got a new finance director and we've got people to understand how these things are accounted for And you'd like to think there was a plan And in my view we should have one person responsible for selling players And one person who's going to go out and do the buying of players Because I've spent a large part of my career in sales and it's two different skills buying and selling. Okay Two different skills and and you know, we need to we need to be actively Because we know there are six ten maybe 12 players We want out the door some are harder to shift than others Some will take longer to shift and if you're selling something and you want to sell it quickly You're going to get a low price for it. So we try and have a fire sale You know in the first week of august because the window shuts pretty quickly. Yeah. Yeah, then we're not going to extract But we could still sell after the window shuts Yep, but to your to your my point is without a plan. Yeah, yeah, you know And this is why I get frustrated players like morale ass and others are getting game time and people are going Well, maybe maybe he's turned the corner and maybe we should keep bezage after all Now if we've bought a director of football It's to look at that squad and decide who's coming and who's going and he needs to be ruthless And there needs to be a plan and that needs to decide that needs to be being executed right now Whether we're pushing stridling out the door whether I imagine I imagine that will start happening though In terms of players will be told and once they're told and it will be actually up to the to their to their agents or the club's agents To sell the player That clock's ticking. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's really ticking. Yeah. Yeah The manager has said has need that after the last after the port game He's now going to make his hard decisions. Yeah He's given them all a chance whether it's bezage or morellis. You haven't forbid he sticks around But anyway, as you rightly say, anyone you shirt number apparently Well, they all have to have them at this stage, don't they? Yeah, it's part of the game of selling You can't make it so obvious as to fire cell. That's why what kuman did to neas was so incredibly stupid. Yeah It made it anyway But as soon as you get into that regime, you know, which players are most likely to go to europe No, what's going to pick class up in this country Championship clubs won't go anywhere near and premier league clubs won't go. So he's going to europe Therefore there's a bit longer for him to sell, isn't there? It's to be sold. Yeah buyers want to buy the last minute They don't want to pay the salary for them to get fit and things like that So all that's going to happen But the players need to know and what as you rightly say more importantly the agents need to know Because as roger says having someone accountable for selling and generating as much income from disposals as possible Who's a counterbalance that a man who's buying and trying to get players for as little as possible as well This guy the seller He needs bandwidth and the bandwidth is the agents. Yeah, we all need bandwidth Yeah, absolutely And brands can be as great a director of football as he wants But he does need help and support because he can't be in two places only people like you can be So what should be selling the players then roger? You say you want to buy it and a seller so assume a brand is the buyer who's the seller Well, he's got to have somebody with me. You know who's in the club. Who are you going to get to do the job? Look, I think brands must have people within his team Right, it's a different set of skills to go out into a network and say Morgan Schneiderlin's available Or Kevin Morales is available. It's got to use his network and he can't be doing it all Yeah, so i'm asking you who should be doing that. I honestly believe 90 of the time The age they will just tell the agent to find that player at a club I think that's more more how it works than anything else. If they're going on a free That's the easy bit. I mean, how how it's negotiated in the end. Well, how does Davey classon's agent Going to find him a club when he sat here earning 100 grand a week? That's his that should even bother Well, he doesn't have to but ultimately if the that's his job as his agent To find his job as his agent was to get him top dollar at Everton. Oh, yeah, but now is next job. It's not binary though It's not binary. Well, it's not no, but if you're moving classing on right as a football club What have we got with classon? We've got a guy who's on whatever is 50 60 grand a week and it's because it's not the 100 grand bit but let's say it's 50 grand a week just because makes the sums easy So he's costing us two and a half million a year in salary and it's costing us five million a year in depreciation Isn't it of the transfer fee? So he's cut still seven and a half million We want that money back to spend elsewhere. Are we going to get a transfer fee for it? Maybe So then we have to make the decision how much of a loss which is your point be brutal Do it be objective on the salary front. Maybe what for the fancy and we could have used him as a make-up If we don't want to take the hit If we don't want to take the hit on the transfer fee because people want him for free say Then you can go out on loan. Yeah He still sits on our books. We still continue to depreciate him at five million a year But he's out somewhere else who's paying his wages on a sec Then we get into who's paying his wages while he's out on loan. Yeah Say he goes to besiktas or the the brain and whoever it is who claim they want him So we're only going to pay him 25 grand a week Everton then have to make the decision. Do we say no? And he cost us 50 grand a week or do we say yes We pay him 25 grand. They pay him 25 grand A bit of a win-win We've got a dilution in the cost to drag on the business and they've got you know a bit of a bargain If he goes there and pulls up stumps We might get a transfer fee and then we flip it back again Then you get into loan fees as well. I mean, I think loan fees are just a euphemism for paying the wages aren't they? Yeah When you're essentially paying someone's contract for a year though, aren't you so exactly right? And it's doing all that And being able to make decisions because that's the point. Yeah, when you when you say someone's going to do this They've got to be accountable. So you say to Bill Kenright go sell these templates and get the most you can for them You say to brands if you're silver, I suppose and they all have to talk to each other Go and get me these five players at the lowest possible cost that you can and in this example If he's the seller and he's the buyer Brands and and kenright need to be in cohorts to make sure that they know what the balance The balance looks like because he isn't going to necessarily going to be able to buy if he's not selling That's not sell to buy. It's understanding where you sit in the budgetary objectives that we've got which has got an overarching We shall reduce our wage bill by 20 odd million Versus all we get in the players that we want. Yeah. Now the thing about rich arson, which is forget whether it's 50 million or not It's a lot of money So we must have some headroom. So then you get into where's that money coming from? Yeah, it can only come from two places. Where do you think it's coming from three places? All right place number one is from income that we've sold, you know that we've Brought in from selling players Place number two is debt borrowing And I don't think Michelle particularly wants to see borrowing because he's got all the plaudits for actually bringing our debt down to Next to nothing and that debt liability is going to be played against us on the stadium with an uncareful therefore That larger shareholder dips into his pocket. He's putting his hand in his pocket. So he's going to put some money in Right, just like he has in previous years But if he's going to do that and he saw how badly it was spent last year He's going to want to make sure it's not sell He's going to make sure it's not so done that badly this year One way to address that is to say you've got to get the wage bill down Because it was a runaway last year, wasn't it just went up But isn't that a sign of having confidence in his own man because he's because he's bought them in He's bought the manager. He's bought the director of football. Yeah He can't bring those people in and I mean obviously the face was his man Yeah He was yeah, he was but I can but surely you've got to back the person that you've brought Brought in directors direct and managers manage, you know, so the board and then we keep coming back to it, don't we? You've got to have those accountable individuals. Yeah, including the board members themselves And I'm sure Denise is going to have some challenge given to her colleagues on the board to reduce other operating costs and things like that But from a playing point of view, it's all down to brands Isn't one of the big problems that we keep on talking about things that we need to reduce and not talking about things about how we can Make more money No, we've got to do that as well. Again, we keep talking about this. There's got to be a commercial accountable So Sasha Ryazantsev sits on the board. He's had finance and commercial added to him and he's a city banker type So there's a query there of what background has he got and actually driving improved commercial performance If all it means is he's the board representative And it's still the guys who were doing the commercial deals last year to the year before and the year before Then where's the innovation going to come from? Because if those guys were innovative or ballsy or risk takers or creative, whatever you want to say, they'd have done it already, wouldn't they? So you're back to leadership then and that's what you get into. You're back to communication Yeah, and and and perhaps You know, what we needed to hear was at least the skeleton of a plan that this is going to be that's what Denise tried to do Yeah, but it didn't really work because we haven't really seen any action following through from there And and that's why we need to hear from brands to understand, you know, this is a you know, we're in a phase of transition This is what we're at. This is what we're we're looking to achieve. We're looking to Get some new exciting young players into a squad. We're targeting a domestic cup We're targeting as high league position as we possibly can bringing through players from the academy We want to go away to a top six team and win and we want to play attacking football And and and but don't expect us to be spending 200 million with this window You know and and it's not nobody would be surprised and I don't think anybody would be angry But that clarity and that confidence of communication is what is lacking from the very very top because I'm not sure that those who are in power Denise Sasha Keith Harris Actually feel they're empowered to communicate that publicly because they obviously don't think that brands is empowered to even go and talk to sky Well, it comes That's laudable. Yeah, I'm not that sure what benefit it would get if if he did it But it would be who did what brands did that sort of communication Well, I'm gonna say But the key is is is Introduction, you know, you sort that communication is it's as much to do with engagement as anything else We have to do things that we wouldn't have done before For people to see that it's different And I've said it before and I'll say it again When you get changed like this and we all know if you've worked in corporate Well, we all know the guy who's just left the company whether it was voluntarily or not. It's all his fault Yeah, so so the previous chief exec has gone So if all of a sudden we're more engaging we're more open We're more communicative and all those sorts of things Then two things happen. One is the new chief exec gets a big tip because clearly she's making a difference But there's also a little bit. It was the old guy. Everyone then gets a new clean sweep, don't they? They all get a reset And and I for one I'm pretty damn convinced the issue isn't at that top table about some of this stuff It's in the middle I don't agree with you. It's at the top table. Well, I think it's absolutely at the top table It's getting our Everton back going back to the way we were we used to be even worse with communication So we've got to transform we've got to absolutely transform to interpret in isolation what getting our Everton back means I'm trying to say that communication is the most important thing and confident communication And this club is notorious for being secretive notorious for treating the fans poorly and not communicating openly with them And that has to absolutely 60 days in the new chief exec is saying the right things She said the right things 30 40 days. Yeah, yeah, but groan wasn't built in a day and all that and you know All those sorts of things the question is is how long do we just the fans in general Give the new board Before we conclude they are different and don't you know proactive and positive and And so on or it's just more of the same and I think the half full person Which there may be some about I don't know Would say and we have said it many times on our podcast, haven't we if it's the same people Sitting around the table with different job titles or whatever How can we expect them to be different and part of the answer is what I just said of blame the old guy Yeah Because if the old leadership through the chief exec was suppressing the performance of those middle ranking people Then some of them will step up and perform great Some of them will struggle and they'll leave the business If it wasn't him if it was more institutional, which I think is the point you're leading towards There won't be a change. What the only way you can then fix that is with a really heavy strong Powerful leader who does it on the force of their own personality and the like Yeah, and I've not seen anyone who's had that Testicular to get out there and say we are going to do this But who's proven that they're capable of growing a business job Now we can't talk about a new board because Harris and Ryzan serve and Denise have been on it for the last two years But it's a new board because Elston's not there. Well, that's just one change Yeah, no, but it still becomes a new board and it still gives a reset opportunity Yeah, and that's why I think we've heard the right things in the 30 first 30 days from Denise We're now into the 60 odd days, aren't we and by the time, you know season started will have done the 90 days And if we're seeing a difference that would be great Now when I and I think I said this on our pod again keep referring to it. Sorry about that You can do an advert at the end of something is other pods are available. Yeah. Yeah, but nowhere near as good But there was plenty of people saying that in those early days There was a difference people were particularly on the pr side and perhaps the media engagement side They were a bit more open and a bit more relaxed and so on but then you get them playing particularly at Berry say back to being, you know a gatekeeper now Does the manager not want to talk to people or is the middle ranking guy Concluding he doesn't want the manager to talk and someone on high has to say to themselves. You don't have to share it with us Why didn't we do the things that ped said we should have done? Which is two minutes ever in tv two bloody minutes with It went sky with air wently, you know two minutes with sky a little bit with the national print media a little bit with the local print media everyone's happy And and we get a bit of content I for the life of me cannot figure why it didn't happen Because I just don't believe that a brand spanking new Jungish manager who again is getting quotes, which are around the right thing Would in the early days of his tenure When when he's still in his honeymoon period because the real stuff hasn't even started yet Would be saying no, I don't want to talk to the fans because someone should explain to him. That's what it is It's talking to the fans. Let's go back to what we were saying earlier He well, he did something after the uh the game on sunday night But he didn't in portuguese to a portuguese tv company The quote still got out what he was saying But what you've been saying then interesting because he has done an interview with everton this week But it's been a paywall. Well, not a paywall as such. It's behind the members and the scenes in after the admin game No, no, he did it. He's gonna sit down with them He's gonna sit down into view because these are one after the other games behind the pain So he's gonna sit down into the screen, but it's behind it's behind it's a members only thing So again, it's your heart your hide and the thing that you're trying to project I need you I just don't get these decisions It's that big picture thing we're talking about before Someone somewhere thinks having that behind a paywall will make people pay to get inside the paywall This is where he and I know it was there. So this is where he and I would draw a different conclusion The chief executive should be aware of that and should say stop that. Yes, that's gotta be public It's no good blaming it on middle ranking officials That's the chief executive's responsibility And that should not be behind a paywall and it's a scandal that it is It's an absolute scandal And if you want to talk about getting our Everton back, whatever that means Are it getting our Everton back doesn't mean hiding the manager away so that only people who pay 20 quid or whatever can see it It's nonsense. Well at the very least at the very least which bit do I disagree with by the way? No, because I'm I'm I'm saying that you The the the responsibility for that is with the guys at the guys and girls at the top table They're always finishers at the top table But I understand what you're saying because you're saying well if you give that if you give that job to somebody if the media guy in berry On the spot. Yeah decided the manager was not going to speak to the sit down interview the sit down interview with the manager That's being done that's behind a paywall Should not be behind a page. I agree and the minute that Denise finds out about that She should put it on the official site and through every channel the youtube channel free to all Well, there's a challenge. There's a challenge. That's where that should be Here's a challenge, right? If some time after this gets broadcast that interview is free to wear Well done, Roger. Well at the ultimately we're that interview It should be free to wear that interview should be is that it starts on everton tv and then it and then it gets sent out Correct to sky getting exclusive everton tv banning the corner taken from ever Taken from everton's youtube channel in the top left hand corner won't it sourced by it? But I know it just says it should say taken from the everton youtube channel Interviewed Michael Silverway's being dead positive and he's talking dead open about what his plans are and it gets out to every Evertonian and it but see this is what matters because machete did this in the first two years using using gym white It was projecting the club. It was projecting past evertonians It was going past and saying we're going to do this and we're going to do that And yeah, he got his fingers being doing that because it hasn't turned out well But that's no reason to stop doing it. That's no reason to keep projecting the club and that's This is this that you can't understand for life me why you'd want to hide you are hiding content because You get okay you get emails, but I mean emails you get a feather and kits And then passwords to watch the stream I don't So after them end up in the spam folder. Yes, so you go We was that interview and then you go. Oh, it's in this. It's in a it's in a website Halfway down I can assure you I haven't got an email saying Right, but you wouldn't know because it says halfway down There'll be a little link that you click on that takes you into but what's the subject I didn't have no idea see there I've got no idea and I need to see for email addresses to the sender stuff Well, it should just be on the youtube channel for all to watch for every Evertonian So I can just go and get the url and stick it on my website. Yeah, what's the difference? You're gonna cascade what's the difference all it's getting the message out to every differences. It's a growth Culture backed by ambition and confidence rather than a play it safe carry on how we've always done it This is how Everton are and we're not going to change because people will still turn up Sold out season tickets record attendances and everything's fine. Everything's far from fine You know, we've got a challenge. We've got an opportunity. We've got a window. It's closing. It's closing It's closing and we're still, you know, John's analysis there was brilliant of how you do the transfer How do you get Davey class and out of the door? We've got to get 10 Davey classes out of the door And we've only got two weeks. Yeah, and your time starts now. Have you found it? I've got yesterday yesterday yesterday sunday saturday saturday saturday thursday thursday thursday thirteenth All from Everton football club. None of them mention anything to do with You know, but I've also just noticed in doing a search in my multiple inboxes That there's also someone who sends stuff to me called Everton at football club pr So so you're then into don't send me anything But you're into we we're all creatures of habit. You need to know that I don't know. Maybe the email should be called Um, it's comes from Marco Zilla. That would help, wouldn't it? Yeah, I know it looks like it comes from a look at that one Yeah, because you do you get tons of stuff and it comes and goes, you know, um Okay, whereas that's I'm saying that you're targeting Individual fans there who have just happened to pay for this thing or that thing. We stop Target people everywhere target people who aren't ever tonians Target somebody wants to just goes on youtube and what and goes well. Oh, this is only on the evidence site So I'll watch it. Yeah What it comes back to is we don't know who's accountable, you know, we have engagement managers and we no doubt have Really digital media people and some so forth how we get to a decision that says that's going to be behind a firewall I think perhaps nobody really knows Yeah Um, someone thinks it's some bright spark. What thinks it's a good idea And I don't even think it's I don't even think it's a pay thing. I don't even think it's got it's not about the money Someone's just come up with and go right We've got season ticket holders great Okay, and we've got new members right. What can we give them one of the benefits we can give them? Well, let's give them exclusive content. That's fair enough But why What no no at that level of decision making that's fair enough come up with more but someone should then say but what does that mean? Come up with more interesting things. What does it mean? Not an interview with the manager that everyone should be come up with more interesting you can give them exclusive content but just make it more interesting not General things like the ability to watch a game of football, which is what we're all here to do a pre-season friendly Give them more and then they go well. I'm gone. That's a benefit for you either that or you can pay four quid Why are we paying four quid for a for a friendly that I I could go and watch Anyway, I've got the ability to go on the internet and find that game in two seconds I'll watch it up on french tv for example. Dead easy. I could have watched that. I'm on loads of different I've got the ability through the internet to watch that 10 different ways if I want to Yeah, I'll sit there and I'll listen to evidence commentary and just for the benefit of the you have to have down grip It's turned off That was good. Wasn't it sharpie? I can't see that Uh, but it comes back to what we don't know is how the decision is made to put something Because a firewall which limits the opportunity to because it's easy John, I'll tell you why because it's easy because when you're coming up with ideas of what you're going to give Then your members which have benefits, right? That's a very easy start and points Well, we'll just give them the friendlies and we'll just give them exclusive content That's dead easy. That's I should come exclusive content can be A bit like you might do with your stuff It goes out to our pay people today goes out to everybody tomorrow tomorrow So you just get it earlier. That's the benefit Yeah, I'm not clearly on a football game But I do there are there are things that are fine to go out. We're in-depth conversations Which only ever so many to be interested in Yeah, you know real in-depth hour-long conversations that ever so many ins will sit through because it means something to them But also we're gonna do that Don't sit there with snowden and and diamond and talk about how I live how amazing everything is Get into it get really into it and say well, this is behind a pay. Well, it's not going public But you know, it's fine if the quotes get out whatever But be a little bit more honest all and honest about things I mean all the powder stuff out on youtube put all your um You know sure propaganda penalty taken and all those free kick things and all that smart stuff that kids love Put all that but if you want to put the the real hardcore stuff then stick that on your payroll Because I'll go watch that because like we do with Payton where we put real hour-long stuff. I know the stuff we did the other week The first half was free on it and you put the second bit off That's what it's a teaser then, isn't it? But it's not even a teaser So we've got a one hour interview with silver put 10 minutes of it for everyone to see and then they have to go and see the Right, I know you stick the whole interview But I mean I'm talking about how you develop the plot But when I'm talking about real discussions Slugs that real evertonings want to sit through that we will sit through stick then we have on an exclusive thing But put all the lighter the general 10 minute charts Yeah On youtube where no one's but you know when it when everyone's gonna see it and you can put in the background All the advertising boards of all the new sponsors or as I said this one is sponsored by kitback This one is sponsored by umbro. This one is sponsored by whoever surely that is better than you know If you want to attract a new sponsor and you go what we'll do for you is we'll give you an exclusive Content sponsored by your brand every single week or every single day You know, you've got a team there. You've got a media team It's bigger than the squad practically. It's huge They get them doing stuff get them standing outside the club shop asking You know anyone who's passing interesting questions. What do you feel like this? What do you feel like that use them? And and yeah, but don't take them don't take the fans for mugs Right and certainly don't take those that buy season tickets and go every every week for mugs So don't have the ambassadors doing their review of the game You know when just as the kuman era was getting to the absolute depths of despair saying well I think there were quite a lot of positives to take from it. You know, thanks not the words Yeah, we all saw the game don't insult our intelligence, you know, yeah They could do the old sky thing again, you know where they used to have their fans commentating over fan zone Yeah, you have to get me. Can you imagine uh, fan zone mickey? Yeah Darren doing a pre-season game with you next to him instead of sharpie should be I'm not necessarily saying it's me. But you was an example of roger and for me There was a moment in the porto game where sandro controlled the ball and passed it across the entire width of the pitch to a guy in an Everton shirt and darren griffith said take a bow, son Copyright Andy Gray I just like there's so many platforms ever can create little cool have like the press the press Um show would you get different members of the press in and or whoever pull from the red many goes Yeah, it goes out in the sky channel and they have steve hollersall who's doing the job in the middle And he it's his job, you know not to make sure it doesn't go too far But it's it's opinions They they're the kind of shows you want for exclusives. They what you want to be hitting the fans with like, you know Real good shows different shows something a little bit different But when you're dragging out the same people every single week and you're asking them for their Opinions that they're not going to got straight from because they like the job. They've got What's the point? It's just it you got to use the press to your advantage and come back to the transfer window, right? So all of a sudden livable of finish buying now and now they're selling And they use the media to tell everyone who's for sale and how much they're available for You know majesty united have decided Anthony marcial might be available for 50 million So bizarrely that's in the paper. Yeah, you know Like I said earlier, there needs to be a plan and we need to communicate in a trusted way with the media to say, uh, Davie clatter, you know, he's attracting a lot of interest from clubs in germany But but but get the message out there It's all part of our plan and also tell everyone that they're going for The 27 million when eventually when you sell them it's an underscores figure And everyone's everyone's got that 27 million stuff in their head then Like 50 million 40 million plus 10 million everton types I've seen something quite interesting. There was a headline from the mail in um April Manchester united hoped to beat buying munich for a charlison in 40 million pound deal Nice one. That was in april and now everyone's 40 million for a charlison But i'll see you have it. It's crazy. Anyway, we we could talk all day And we will but hopefully do but over on patreon Say i've done you. Yes. I've done you's all Stucked you in should we go now then So we want to see more of the guys get over to patreon if you want to see more guys But as always it's a pleasure to have you in and and you know If you want to listen to more of them with the third wheel the man in the mask the esk Zorro get into get over to the everton business matters podcast on there the the blue room In the blue room a plug and must be in a really good mood today. We'll plug you don't worry. Oh We'll catch you later