 Excellent. This is an inside Jerry's brain call on Tuesday, November 20, 2018, a couple of days before Thanksgiving, where San Francisco is shrouded in smoke off the campfire. Much of California is suffering, but we are here talking about co-creation. And John Kelly just joined. John, I just turned down the recording, so we're off and running. And Judy was just talking about her interests in how we all see similar things differently, I think. I mean, just to paraphrase badly, but do you want to jump back into that? Yeah, I think a theme in my life for much of my life has been connections or connectivity in the broader scope of things, whether it's interpersonal or ideology or affiliation groups or other things. And more recently, I've been particularly interested in how those affiliations occur and the way that people make connections with thoughts, for one thing, because we each connect with thoughts and interpret what we experience differently. And according to the brain researchers, some of whom's names I can give you if you're interested, it's because they go to a vault in our brain that puts like thoughts with other like thoughts. So if I've heard something about evolutionary behavior, and I hear something new, it will track to the same spot in the brain most of the time. It also depends on our pre-existing assumptions, which I would say isn't so much conscious assumptions as it is life experiences. And so how we react to something and that's part of why I've been a person massively interested in diversity since I was in my 30s. And just because this is inside Jerry's brain, I'm going to share my desktop partly because here you are in my brain, Judy. You've been there for a while because we met back at an IFTF workshop for the American Chemical Society, which I've got connected to the things I did in 2006. Now in 2006, I wasn't really doing the My Events thing very well. So you'll see a few things here. So apparently I did a workshop with AARP, but we met at the ACS event that I was just sort of clicking on. We were trying to figure out what the future held and how a nonprofit that's as large and scientific as ours is should attempt to position itself for the future. And I'd have to say my candidate assessment was the group wasn't real comfortable trying to go into the future and think about things that weren't yet measurable. You know, scientists have a hard time sometimes with the future because they really want things, you know, if it doesn't, if it can't be measured, it doesn't exist. And that puts a lot of walls up in different places. So here you are. And I've got you under 3M alumni, along with Mark Kaeper and Robert Skillman. I don't know why they're there. That's interesting. Usually, I think I haven't visited this in a long time because usually I connect alumni to staff here laterally. And then this might be a little bit of fun. Usually I connect alumni up to the big mega thought called alumni, which is right here. And that then connects me to all alumni from anything. So here's this is just the A's. So this is a scroll bar down here. So we're getting to Axios alumni. So if I go here, Colgate, the Beers, Densu alumni, who did I put there? San Rahi and Frank Bile. Oh, I remember Frank Bile. I met him in 2011 at Sustainable Brands 2011 in Monterey. He was with Landor at the time. I have no idea if he's still there. He wrote a book called Global Nomad 101. Oh, that's really interesting. Yeah, staying safe and sane on travel adventures. And it's under travel tips, et cetera, et cetera. So then if I go back to 3M alumni, I can go back up to 3M and found it in 1902 as the Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing Company, which is under US blue chips. Because back in the day, we used to remember we used to have blue chip stocks, the dual lock reclosable tape, next care band-aids, post-its. I've got some of the brands here, Scotch tape, Scotch guard, et cetera, et cetera. Under Scotch tape, as I imagine, I have a generic trademarks, which is brands that represent their categories. So Google, FedEx, Band-Aid, Aspirin, Photoshop, Qtip, Thermos, Xerox, Hoover in England. If you don't back you in England, you Hoover, et cetera. Anyway, this is just a little brief digression. But this is the kind of thing. Judy, I'm fascinated by the thing you just raised a moment ago, which is this notion that we, despite looking at the same sort of things, we see things very, very differently. Sherri, glad you're back on the call. Thanks for coming in. Not to take too much podium time, but I've been interested in that dimension of communication for a long time, because people will say, well, that's a weird thing to get from that quotation or that book or whatever. But more recently, I organized this symposium a year ago in 17 on title of which was science and in society, colon, why don't facts seem to matter. The whole lack of fact checking on things that were precordedly aligned to be science and so forth was really bugging me. So we had a panel of people from different disciplines, all of whom connected with science, but had communications as part of their role. The medical director for the state disease group at the medical associate in the state department talking about infectious diseases, acting head of a hospital who was interested in community outreach. You get the idea of different types of folks. And as part of the background for that, I did some research and found this guy at MIT named Yuri Hasson, H-A-S-S-O-N. That's a really cool brain guy that looks at the mapping of the brain with electrical characterization and then put together a TED talk about that. The gist of which is his final line is something so be careful what you listen to, that's what you become because we create data files in our brain and where the information goes will actually change depending on language, context, whether you have a preexisting assumption about the situation you observed versus not having an assumption and so on. So the gist of it is I kind of see everything connected to everything and that's what I found intriguing about Jerry's brain because he connects in multiple directions on things. He doesn't connect linearly and so for a longer in-depth call on just that topic, I think we could explore how do other people see what they see and observe and then file as they file and what are the implications of that for organizations and movements and social change and so on. Brilliant and Judy don't worry about airtime, I will apologize because I'm a occasionally screen share as other people are talking so that I can do what I just did in the background because you had mentioned Yuri and I had not heard of him so I went and watched his talk, I put him in my brain, he's at the National Science Foundation, he's got his own lab at Stanford called the Hassan Lab where he does his research and it was really funny because I watched his lab. I think he must have moved because he used to be at MIT I think but in any event he's a really cool guy and his talks are interesting. He actually has affiliations with four or five major universities like it's hard to figure out where he actually spends his time and the one other thing I'll say is he was difficult to listen to having is there there's no C and Sasha Baron Cohen oh shoot let's just do Baron I have to spell right hi Sasha I'm Judy there we go so so I had a hard time listening to him with a straight face because of Eran Morad basically in Who is America he invents he invents a Mossad soldier who is completely over the top and I don't know if you guys have seen the documentary series or the humor series that that that Sasha has done recently called Who is America have you guys seen it no okay okay oh my god this first look right here is worth it like this clip right here it's he basically takes people with really pretty out there beliefs about things like gun safety and then he sets up a scenario where they think that he actually is this retired you know in Israeli commando and they follow him into shooting commercials and doing a whole bunch of different things it's insane the things that they walk right in and do and he's using this very exaggerated Israeli accent where his eyes are stuck in his throat and everything else and then Uri is Israeli and speaks exactly that way and I just like the moment he started talking I'm like oh my god my brain has been infected by Eran Morad so I'm actually going to link just for just for my own sake nobody else is going to understand what this is but I'm going to link the Uri's talk to Eran Morad which will make me smile when I see it again but one of the things he talks about is neural entrainment which is I already had the thought brainwave and entrainment which was under brainwaves and entrainment for example and I think that any of you heard of the Hart math institute so there's a theory that well so there's a I think there's a fact that your heart rate varies with each breath cycle so as you inhale and exhale your heart is actually speeding up slowing down speeding up slowing down and that this heart rate variability or HRV let me see where I've got HRV well it should be right here that's weird let's make that link here's HRV heart rate variability and let's connect this to heart brain entrainment bing done okay so um there's a few people sort of doing research on this because it can be very calming to synchronize your breathing with relaxation responses and a buddy of mine had a little device called a stress eraser years ago and the stress eraser was like a $300 thing about this big with a little LED panel and on top it had a pulse oximeter so you'd slip your index finger under the pulse oximeter it would shine a little infrared ray through your fingernail and basically get your pulse rate your pulse rate variability a few other things I think you could get oxygen content in your blood things like that and it was super interesting because the only exercise this little device was good for was to try to create a perfect sine wave on this little LED and put four little blocks under the peak of the sine wave because if you if you were quite there it was just a biofeedback device but if you work right there you'd get two blocks and then the the wavewood jag but if you were sort of in this calm space and your vagus nerve was firing at the top of your breath cycle you were you know doing what they thought was this heart brain entrainment which was super fascinating really interesting um but there's people who are studying entrainment at all different levels including social entrainment like what happens what happens to groups of people when they start seeing or thinking something similarly and then I'll just take it back to what Judy was talking about a moment ago which was I just made the link while you were talking Judy to priming because one of the really interesting things that Uri says in his talk is that one sentence one sentence of priming created very different perceptual groups very different neural reactions between two two test groups in his experiments and what he did was he showed them the plot of a show and then for one group he told them the woman is having an affair in this situation and the husband is trying to figure out what's going on and to the other group he said the woman is innocent the husband is very suspicious one sentence basically different for both groups then they both watch the same thing they both sat under an fmri device while you know having their brain scanned and it turned out that their reactions were consistent by within group but very different group to group depending on this one little sentence of having walked in and I'm like oh my god that's all about priming which is part of you know persuasion and here's uh I'll stop in in a moment because I keep realizing this this connects interesting things so Robert Sheldini's latest book is called persuasion the book that put him on my map was called influence the psychology of persuasion which I have uh under dangerous knowledge well it it means that we really need to be much more conscious of our and other people's behaviors if you want if you want to be effectively heard or if you want to effectively listen and there's even some freaky stuff coming out of Arizona and some other places where people are are claiming at least that they can measure neurological energy in the brain and that crowd thinking is not just the social interaction of a group of people that are all angry but you're being influenced by the brainwave outputs of the groups that you're adjacent to and so it would suggest that if we want to be effective humans we have to be conscious and manage that absorptivity factor much as we would if we stepped into a room and saw that the room was angry we might automatically assume a slightly psychologically defensive approach or at least a protective approach not if you don't I mean yeah that the whole issue of people connecting to people ideas connecting to ideas people rejecting ideas because they're inconsistent with a group think they've already been exposed to and and take it a whole different direction all of the dimensions of innovation that occur because of the differences in how people see things which was something I spent a lot of time studying when I was at 3 m was what is it that made people innovative could I interview for that of things and it turns out it all relates to the same sorts of things the class of leaders will have very diverse outside interests they will have hands on outside interests that cause them to look at something and want to mess with it anyway enough that's no that's great stuff and and earlier I went to this thought in my brain emotion and membership in a group Trump's reason most of the time and unfortunately I the word Trump's is an intentional pun there because you know Trump's effects on he basically understands this better than anybody does so this thought is linked to appeal to people's base or emotions and there's a whole thought elsewhere called Trump's favorite tactics his playbook so give the fearful subconscious of voice go with your gut instincts but aim to disturb paint the worst possible picture the present pump people's fear make things sounds awful stall for the time the media has very limited time you cannot last the the length of time they have to keep the camera on you somebody else wrote the Trump rules of life and leadership it was an axios article so I put down their seven their seven points because it was a good article so when I hit something you know nicely written I will I will debrief into my brain I don't know why there's no link associated with this particular thought that should be a link to the axios article so something went wrong here anyway kill nice to see you and I will stop sharing so we can see each other for a bit and did somebody go away there was a woman yes sherry just wrote on the chat she's sorry she had to leave unexpectedly she may drop back into the conversation but I know that she had something else going on right now I was surprised she was in our call so early because you said she had something else she had to do um Gil we're just sort of touring around and and John nice to see you as well although you're you know they're twice and not on camera but I understand I understand where you are we've been going around this kind of connected conversation around connections and perceptions and and things like that and I'd love to I'd love to go back into that in any place that any of you would like to pull on a thread and Judy if you want to go back in or Ken if you want to pick up something that we talked about a long time about this I'm kind of connecting spirit I'd like to know what other people think and what their own experiences are and if they even have an example of where I mean you even hear people say in fact it was a great technique I noticed someone who never got in fights with speakers at podium even though he opposed their ideas completely and I got figured I needed I'd learn how to do that so I watched him carefully in subsequent meetings and he prefaced it every single time with the comment that was I'm probably looking at this differently but and then he would state the opposite thesis of the speaker and only once in about a dozen times did the speaker respond yeah but you're wrong most of the time they listened and it led to a thoughtful exchange which I found fascinating so that I put in my backpack but the whole notion of communication is a dialogue um and the way we connect thoughts are unique and that's why it's good to have six 10 or 15 people at the table because they'll bring different thoughts to the topic and it'll be richer was the phrase I'm probably thinking about this differently yes or I think that I might be thinking about this from a different perspective or or I could be looking at this differently because of my experience but you put a personal ownership statement in front of it so that he wasn't criticizing the man or the thought he was voicing a different experience and he was allowing right up front that other people might see this differently etc I mean I'm so I love the kinds of conversations that you're talking about right now that's that's my favorite sort of thing where there's a there's a touchy subject that's squirming on top of the table or in the middle of the room and it's something that people normally would avoid like Thanksgiving is coming up and a whole bunch of families are instructing their children okay don't talk about politics with Uncle Jeff or whatever right because they want to avoid whatever strife comes from talking about messy things and I'm really interested in those messy things because I think that if we can calm down and listen to each other with care and step into it um we can get somewhere that the goal of Inside Jerry's brain is to to do some of that so I also want to invite people in with pretty different opinions but but ways of diffusing tension including humor humor works really well a ton but self deprecation is good identifying your position as possibly you know different is really is really good so so techniques like that I really love I used to use self deprecation a lot but when I was the only woman in the room at 3m it didn't work because the guys never use self deprecation I bet that another interesting topic in terms of discussion across mixed gender mixed race diverse populations what are some of the adaptive skills that have been developed that means that society needs to develop more of those or somehow if we could share experiences so we understand that we're all a lot more like than we're different that's my hope anyway I just threw a link in the chat window I recently actually thanks to Gil friend because before before Gil introduced us I had discovered this work of Dr. Renee Wordsman who is doing a lot of work on how to talk about climate change and this is a little video she did for kids of you know how to talk and basically you don't talk you listen so it's like don't if someone says something that you find you totally agree with just say that's interesting you know why do you think that and and what's behind that and rather than getting activated of you know you're an idiot you haven't you clearly don't know the facts blah blah blah it's like okay so tell me how you came to that you know and what's your background for this and so I just thought this was a nice little thing because it's really done specifically Jerry said you know we giving kids being told not to talk about stuff this is specifically for younger people but it works at any level and yeah and I'm trying to get a coffee date with Renee she lives not too far from me but she's really busy because I'm interested in some of the work she does around talking about climate where she says you know we need to address three a's they've talked about people's aspirations they've talked about their anxiety they've talked about their ambivalence and she gives the example of ambivalence you know she's ambivalent about eating meat she knows eating meat is really you know harmful for the planet and yet she eats meat and or or going to conferences you know like I go to conferences to get out there and have my work be known and I hate getting on a plane because I know that's contributing to climate change so I think it's a really wonderful way of opening up the conversation in ways instead of trying to be right of saying well what are the things you're ambivalent about and what produces anxiety in you and what are your aspirations wonderful stuff so I recommend you you check her out thank you could you give me her name again Renee Lertzman L-e-t-z L-e-r-t-z-m-a-n okay I just had her up on on the brain I don't know if you caught that I didn't but thank you yeah I won't necessarily know to work know where to go look for something sometimes when I get into your yeah exactly so one of the problems one of one of the problems here is that I wish the brain had a little bookmark or breadcrumb feature I mean what's funny is every thought I'm clicking on is scrolling off to the left here this is kind of the breadcrumb trail of what I've been clicking on there is no utility in the brain that lets me copy and paste this to you so that you could see all the different things I clicked on and have a direct link to my brain for each one that would be that would be a nice to have so here's Renee Lertzman talking about the psychology of climate change and in fact I'm going to link that to the and I just went to the link that Ken put in the chat so I dragged it into the brain as you were talking and connected it so I'm also trying to figure out where do I have conversations about climate change because I have a I have a thought called climate change deniers I also have one about climate change activists evangelists experts and consultants right but partly I think I need to have the conversation you know I also I think I have a thought called some climate change debates or something that gets both sides of it I find that I I'm quite annoyed because every time I look something up Google or any other search engine does it based on what they think I want to see and then I have to search the opposite of that to find the other side so if I want to form my own valid opinion in pseudo scientific way I have to take that second step because I don't get a balanced portfolio of information so I'm just adding a thought called how to talk about climate change and I'm going to connect it to the secret to talking about climate change and I'm going to connect that back up to climate change what was the difficult conversations one that flipped by briefly yeah I'll go back to it so here we go that reference I hope I wasn't cutting you off oh no not at all um I'm just I have to say I had this experience on uh on the itan calls and now it's it's up several orders of magnitude with Jerry's brain flashing by of drinking from a fire hose so you know I'm sitting here going oh my god there's so many things I could jump in it well that's gone oh this is so you know I'm just quiet so please I'm enjoying your I'm enjoying your brain as much as I'm enjoying Jerry's same here same here so don't uh don't pipe down pipe up this is great and uh so this is difficult conversations which is under conversation also under conflict resolution and difficult stuff I don't remember what I have under difficult stuff adversity degrees of difficulty hardship or deals I don't think I visited this this this zone in my brain for for a long time but under difficult conversations are several books so here's a book titled difficult conversations that was written by Roger Fisher Sheila Heen Roger Fisher I think of Fisher and Yuri of the Harvard negotiation yep the program on negotiation at Harvard etc so if I go back to difficult conversations then here's authentic conversations crucial confrontations crucial conversations and how to have that difficult conversation you've been avoiding which is written by people conversations because that's a very useful book which one crucial conversations yeah I'm here called fierce conversations which may want to go here did you break it back fierce fierce fierce conversation so that's so you know what so you know what I have it in my book it's just under conversations so I'm going to put it under difficult conversations so it's connects to all those other things so here's the seven principles of fierce conversations and it does not appear that I'd be briefed usually if there's something like because I'm curious what that is the seven principles sure let's go and let's let's hope the link is still alive so uh here we go seven principles of fierce conversations master the courage there we are so why don't I copy this paste it into our chat and then go back to sharing I'll paste it here so you can read it as I'm reading it then I'll go back to screen sharing and while we're talking I will add those seven principles just for grins because that's what I do thank you thanks for suggesting it so what I do is I'll go back here to the brain so I will drag from so to add a thought to another thought I'll do a little bit of tutorial each time I each inside Jerry's brain show when I click on a thought it rotates into the middle so if I click on the the text of anything it goes to the middle so let me click on seven principles again and then I can connect any thought to any thought through these three little circles called gates and so I'm going to put the seven principles underneath so I just click and drag and it opens up an empty field and if I type in if I type in text that I know already exists it will find that text and I can link to any existing thought but in this case I'm putting in a new thought master the courage to interrogate reality and I know that when I do lists I like to do one at the number dot space and then the list item so I'm going to change the colon to a dot just because that's my style so what I would normally do is is digest this and if this principle connects to other things I already have in the brain for different for different reasons then I would do that so interrogate reality is really interesting this kind of how our brains think and track is just fascinating to me yeah exactly looked at this before in different ways pardon it looked Ken offered some interesting thoughts so I take it that it's something you have looked at Ken before in different ways or context yes my focus is on conversation how conversation specifically gets work done as well as how to talk about things that prevent us from getting work done and I spent 10 years as one of the co-developers the world cafe dialogue process and since then I've gone off to develop my own process called collaborative conversations which focuses specifically on on how to get work accomplished because it's really hard to make a living doing dialogue but if you can bring dialogue principles in very practical ways to people then it's a lot easier to get paid for it cool I have a couple organizations that would benefit from that content well we should talk I'd be happy to tell you more I'm always looking for new clients a lot of our nonprofits they don't have a ton of money but that's okay I work with anybody so because I'm focusing on on a process not content I don't need to limit myself to just nonprofits or just corporations or government I've been around the kind of around the block. Jerry as you're doing this I just want to put a bookmark on something one of the things that comes up that is related to what Judy was talking about earlier for me is Robert Keegan and Lisa Leahy's work on immunity to change of why facts don't change people's minds so I went to Harvard I took their class and they lead off with saying you know something like I forget the percentage so I'll just name 82% of people who are diagnosed with heart disease are told you'll die in five years if you don't change your lifestyle an 82% die you know so their point is that the information and the threat of death is not sufficient to create change in people so what do we do uh to actually get that to happen and their process is to uncover what they call competing commitments so they give the example of let's say you want to lose weight and this is one that can go in lots of different directions but so you say I want to lose weight that's my goal and then what are all the things I'm doing and not doing to get in the way of that well I'm not exercising so that's I'm not doing and I'm having two desserts a day I'm eating dessert after lunch and dessert after dinner and I'm eating uh when I'm alone and lonely and uncomfortable and feeling down right so then the next column over is what's the competing commitment well although I'm committed to losing weight I'm also committed to not feeling lonely and if I'm lonely food is my friend so I'm committed to taking care of myself through food and then that yields there's a big assumption under there the assumption being if I don't eat I will not feel good and so let's test that let's just run a little modest experiment with a researcher stance to see what happens if I shift from eating you know sugary snacks to eating um nuts for example where I can still feel that I'm I'm getting some some nourishment but it's no longer empty calories and check it out so that's just their their work is really interesting on on how people do and don't change um and I figured you'd have something in here on your brain and your brain on that Jerry and so I have you've been watching as as as you've been talking because I'm the whole trail because I was looking at so I oh shoot okay so I I went I knew I had the book in here so here's Robert Keegan and his Wikipedia page the W the icon means that there's a link here associated with his Wikipedia page so if I click on the icon if I click on his thought it puts his thought in the middle or lets me edit it if I click on the fav icon it launches my browser to that web page so he is teaches at Harvard in the change leadership group he's a developmental developmental psychologist and an educator also a psychologist because it's just a the great the larger category he's talked about the five orders of consciousness which I don't have listed in here bad bad bad um so uh so in the meantime I realized oh I think I've got a couple threads here and it was really lovely because as you were talking I was finding I know I have resistance to change so I just connected it to immunity to change over here and in fact I can probably I'll make this a little bit more explicit so that it shows up easier I'll just double I'll just make another link so that immunity to change and the book immunity to change both show up under here and then on change I have one thought that I really like which will interest you guys is scales of change which I'm going to color so one another thing I do you'll notice every now and then there's a yellow thought or a purple thought so when I have a lot of things under a thought and it's not obvious because there's going to start to be a lot of stuff showing up around it I'll color that thought and the two colors that I like to use here are this purple and this yellow so now now scales of change will jump out a little bit better from this big list of things under change but I went to scales of change because I'm really interested in personal change social change systems change technological change organizational change national change evolutionary cultural these are all different kinds of scales right and and sometimes one group dictates whatever the rest of the groups do so you know I think you know changing a population's opinion one approach is to have the preachers all say some message so that it goes out to everybody on Sundays another approach is to teach the children something at school so that it comes back into the household so the city of Curitiba became the greenest city in South America by basically adding recycling to the children's curriculum and getting them completely excited about it and then having the kids teach their parents so there's a Jaime Lerner was the mayor of Curitiba back in 1971 plus plus he he then did a whole bunch of really interesting things uh to to sort of redesign Curitiba including let me see if I've got nope I'm trying to find whether I put because this is a while ago I'm trying to figure out did I put you know teach the kids recycling and have them teach their parents but I don't think I have that in there so at some point I'll go back to it well along with what you were saying Ken one of the big things that that I've observed is that and I'm sure this is written about but the whole context of group affiliation and you believe it if it comes from the people you usually talk to you you already pre-qualified them so to speak and there may even be a sort of a universality of viewpoint in a certain group of people so that any fact that connects with that you give more credence because it's supported by your whole group and so forth and then it makes it very challenging to and opposing ideas are almost not heard or they're heard and dismissed psychologically because of that affiliation tendency and the underlying one to use your model would then be well I'm afraid if I think a different thought these 20 friends won't like me anymore because I'm not agreeing with the group and so it becomes one of those loneliness vectors or something that can cause resistance to change is that a does that fit with what you're saying well if we're talking specifically about Keegan yes he talks about that in his book immunity to change and by the way Jerry he's got a later book out he's since retired from Harvard base is still teaching he's retired they're both still at lines at work and their latest book I think is called on everyone culture which is interesting because in in over our heads which I read I haven't read in everyone culture Keegan says that you can't train development you can only set up the conditions for teachable moments but now and everyone culture is very specifically about training for development so he's he's evolved in 25 years but they're uh yeah becoming a deliberately developmental organization and um there for the example they were working with the department of social services in massachusetts and they walked in and discovered that everyone was terrified of making a mistake you know because if you make a mistake in social services you are on the front page of newspaper look at this scandal all these people so when you're terrified make a mistake you're in a defensive crouch when you're in a defensive crouch you cannot learn and I think that relates to what you're saying Judy of um if I'm going to upset the apple cart among my friends and disagree with them then I put myself at great risk so I stay defensive I'm not open to new information because I'm afraid I might lose my identity my affiliation with this with this group with my team my department my super my you know boss whatever it is and that ties for me I don't have Jerry's brain I just everything's in my head I need I need Jerry's brain but that ties to me you've got Jerry's brain I'm right here that ties into something I read lost my thought now oh I'm sorry sorry that's all right no worries no worries it'll it'll come back but but this idea of oh yeah cognitive diversity um you can have there's an article in hbr I think about cognitive diversity and it says you can have a very very diverse looking team of all different ethnicities and and and genders but if they've all gone to Ivy League schools guess what it's not actually a very diverse team in the way that they think they've all been trained to think in certain ways so how do we make it palatable and safe for people to bring in other folks who say well you know I don't have a four-year degree I you know I heard this story once of a woman who was invited to a big gathering and she said you know I don't know why you want me I have no degree my expertise is in suffering and they're like that's why we want you because we want people who are out there on the line suffering because you'll have information that we're lacking so that that becomes a a question for me of how do you make it palatable for for organizations to listen to people they tend to not listen to and the same thing for community it's under diversity too because one of the things I've looked at is trying to identify for individuals why I'm drawn to them which is usually because they have a thought different than mine that I want to understand and integrate and if I acknowledge that person you know Tom I'm really glad you're here because I need your viewpoint it's different than mine it's informing my breadth of perspective um it gives them more voice and I think it's the same factor that you're talking about because you can certainly I saw group think at 3m all the time I mean this is there's a 3m way to do this and we had through the following and they almost just dismiss something that doesn't fit with what they think are the ways of getting things done yeah I was asked recently I was explaining my concept of collective intelligence to someone they said well how is this different than group think and that led me to create a little table of you know here's the characteristics of group think and here's the characteristics of of collective intelligence and you know in collective intelligence we actively solicit dissent because we want to create a larger context in which they cannot nest and operate that spur us on to how to resolve this whereas you know in group think any dissenting any dissent is quashed immediately so that's one of the biggest ones right there well we I had a slide and I don't know if I can find it because it's like 20 years old but we called it the iceberg of diversity and above the waterline where the things you could see race color gender etc and then outnumbering by 10 to 1 below the waterline where the invisible diversity traits you know introvert extrovert midwestern asian you know different ways of thinking intuitive you know and we don't examine individuals or groups and the dynamics of the groups consciously around those traits unless someone in the group brings that model in and and just works the model or depending on where the group is frames the model but oftentimes it's easier to just work the model and try to engage people i love this conversation thank you all who's jumping in john john yeah uh jerry i don't know if you have this separated out i mean the the huge factor in all collaborative and difficult conversations is the actual differences that people are at least partially aware that they have there's a kind of work i did i forget how how much we talked about or whether you experienced future mapping and there we do something deliberate we push things into the future so that we can get further away from what people are most certain about but we're also um accommodating a different kind of diversity that that we hope is in the room or we're pretty sure is in the room and that is uh there are people who know a lot about certain subjects and there are people who who know much less and know that they know much less but are still legitimate participants and we're trying to figure out how to bridge that and one of the ways the one of the key ways we bridge it was push everything into the future and we changed the questions so the initial question is here's a newspaper story from the future do you think it will happen or not you suspend the whole question of should and of course people still vote their shoulds and they and they vote no if they think it shouldn't happen but it it gets inside their their expectations in an interesting way and it's and it it works especially well if you do it in a group and you're in eye contact and you use your body to vote so you put thumbs up i think this is going to happen thumbs down no and like uh uh level hand means i'm not sure and um if you standardize the the shape of the news story like five to seven word headline two sentences and a date then you can do a large number in a short amount of time so one example i used recently some people know a lot about china and the social credit system some people know zero about china and the social credit system instead of focusing on china in the present i wrote an event that said 2022 three african countries adopt a chinese social credit system that was the headline and then in the text it was because they've been the recipients of large uh investments from china they were you know induced to adopt the system and it has the interesting effect of legitimating uh inquiry because always because some people say well some people just come right and say i have no idea what this thing is can you tell who knows what this is and tell me other people say i knew what it was but i wasn't i hadn't thought about it spreading to african countries and uh you know so you you sparked a whole lot of uh interesting non less competitive conversation anyway around that just by asking for the vote on whether you think it's going to happen or not john what you're saying sparks like 3 000 things i just went to social credit in my brain one of the things it sparks is a long time ago not pope francis but when pope benedict was pronounced pope and there was white smoke from the vatican jimmy wales i happened to see him speak a couple days later and he laughed and he said you know right after pope benedict was made was made pope uh i received a whole bunch of congratulatory emails from journalists saying hey wow i noticed that immediately when i looked up on on wikipedia there was like a fully documented version of pope benedict and uh he was uh in fact uh in fact um there we go oops pope benedict here we go let's go to pope benedict joseph cardinal ratzinger was his name right so um we noticed there was a full complete page on on on on pope benedict and and jimmy laughs and he says well well duh because we already had a full page on every cardinal certainly the major cardinals who were up for possibly becoming pope so somebody went in wrote a little paragraph that said on this date at the you know on this date there was white smoke and uh and ratzinger became the new pope and his his taken name is pope benedict d 16 and he was laughing because he knew that when you have a curated context that is deep you can immediately offer depth in each place and one of the things that kills me about public discourse or any other kind of discourse is how uninformed we are and how we have to walk in and relearn and we and sometimes reinvent everything so there's a couple of formats for public discourse in particular deliberative polling where some research is done by third parties which is then read by everybody in the deliberative poll and you use this part of the conversation i'm like why aren't we talking over wikipedia as if it were a piece of our civic discourse and using what it knows about zoning what it knows about popes what it knows about democracy you know as part of the conversation and why does the news not see that as a as a as a piece of the information comments that we could use together so i don't understand why these pieces haven't fallen in place it's kind of one of those mysteries to me but it goes back to how do we get better informed in conversation because a lot of these wikipedia pages are pretty nice really quick summaries to get up to speed on just about anything right and just one other note and i'm i'm blocking on the name but uh it'll come right back to me and if gill's still on the line he'll know who i'm talking about right away the the guy from from san diego who was doing the simulations has a workshop format where he throws out a question and to the tables and the tables can answer but you can only answer if you're bringing up a web page that contains your answer so it's like here's the question you don't get into the conversation unless you're showing us a web page and preferably several and it's it's an interesting kind of piece of judo on on a group the group has to have a certain kind of knowledge affinity ethic or it just falls flat but but i've seen it work if you if you prep people and of course that also every every table has to have a a video projector aimed at a wall and a screen that every other table can see so it's like as you go around the room you know you can see the tables firing up their web pages and looking for them super interesting yeah there's a whole bunch of i have a bunch of things under deliberative democracy a whole bunch of things under decision making decision making is a huge topic one one other thing i do a lot here you'll notice there's a couple purples and one yellow usually the first thing i do when a thought gets crowded is i create a thought called articles about thought name and and i color it yellow so that it stands out because all of these are books youtube videos uh jstore research papers uh whatever whatever about decision making right and and some of these are just sub-choice like you know too much choice should lead us to the tragedy the tyranny of choice which is schwarzman let me actually color this one because it's a good one excuse me let me color it so it stands out a little bit more but here's the tyranny of tyranny of choice the paradox of choice very schwarz there we go at swarthmore yep who is by the way a fantastic public speaker so when i see somebody really give a good talk i put them under favorite living speakers right doesn't that make sense anyway uh back to what you're saying john or to whatever thread anybody wants to pick up from that and i'm going to stop sharing for a little bit so we can see each other better i have something but i realized gil hasn't spoken much and i don't want to i want to give him a chance to jump in doctor friend hey buds so i'm back with something that ken was saying earlier when he was talking about um his renae's work and his work with renae you know i think it's been an encouraging sign that we see more of our ilk wanting to open to conversations with the other side and i'm sorry to use these words but uh you know lots of efforts to bridge the political divide in the united states and what i typically hear from people is we really need to talk to those folks so i'm going to go ahead and talk a little bit about typically hear from people is we really need to talk to those folks uh and the suggestion in um what ken and renae is saying is that we actually need to listen okay through them but there's another step there because we often say let's listen to them with kind of an instrumental strategy if i'm going to listen to them so i can figure out how to change them and a really powerful conversation has to be i think much more open than that and i have to go in willing for me to be changed as well as for them to be changed which is dicey right scary challenging of my identity and so forth um i just got off a call with the pluralistic networks folks um i'm going through an exercise about um kind of say this sorry my brain is a little slow this morning about listening with care about a conversation to not understand or shape someone else's point of view but to understand them and who they are and what they care about and what motivates them and what matters in their lives and something a different kind of possibility opens up in that conversation that's very powerful i totally agree um i just i've been browsing around this article hbr article what great listeners actually do by joseph fulcman and jack zhanger from 2016 which is really good it had a lot of uh you know most people think good listening is just not talking over someone going uh huh uh huh and then being able to repeat back and actually it turns out that good listeners do these things they're cooperative they ask questions promote discovery they make positive suggestions etc then i also had a listening in general because i happened to believe so one of my beliefs is that we're in an epidemic of not listening right so there's a thought right up here up up top here is a pinboard anything i drag up here stays up here so my beliefs is always top center in my pinboard and so one of my beliefs is we're in an epidemic of not listening and anand giridharadas has been really really good at expressing this i don't have you guys listen to any of his stuff so anand is awesome he uh wrote a book that got him some attention a while ago called the true american murder and mercy in texas and it was about a murderer and his victim's mother i think who became friends and it was a really interesting sort of textured story about justice and mercy and forgiveness and whatnot that got him attention but then uh then the thing the the talk that really kind of put him on the map was this one you'll notice i like it uh because everything i put under it is what i derived from the talk and he says look our you know our our we hear meeting at the aspen institute our buddies and you're like my family but we're part of the problem we haven't been listening right and then the more recent ted talk that he did is this one a letter to all who have lost in this era um and he says look i heard you but did not listen right um and it's super really interesting um and i've got that under bridging the cultural divide which i should connect a little bit more explicitly this listening well and then one last thing i'll say while we're here just because i'm experimenting with free associating in my brain and seeing what that does the conversation because i realize what i'm doing is i'm taking us off multiple threads we run that were really lovely and i wish i could i wish i could slow the conversation down and then like hit a button and all of us could be talking about each of the little fractal tips at the same time like in parallel universes that would be kind of cool that being difficult um i'll come to uh one of the things i kind of got to this is also my one of my beliefs is um i was looking at um i was looking at like principles for like principles for operating society but what should we do right and for example like the ten commandments ought to be principles for running a society right but the quiz i asked people all the time is what is the second commandment anybody know number two thou shalt not kill no that's like five or six what's number two the first is thou shalt have no other gods before me which shows you how insecure god is bingo and also says it's okay to kill other people who believe in other gods because i'm the i'm your only god right and those people who believe they've got a god they're wrong so go go go number two what's number two cover thy neighbor's wife you mean thou shalt not um that's that's my problem you know no other got got that one backwards but that's further down the further down the queue that's like eight or nine what's up what's number two second commandment of the ten commandments that were handed to moses on a freaking tablet from a burning bush like must be important what's number two isn't it no the the catholic number two is to thou shalt not take the name of the lord in vain um i think that's up there the one i have is they can't no graven images oh yes right right because when moses came down from the mountain they were worshiping graven images right so here so i've got ten commandments right and number one no other gods before me number two no graven images number three don't take the lord's name in vain and there are different versions of ten commandments this is kind of the one i found and i'm perfectly happy to figure out what other perceptions are keep the Sabbath polies number four honor that father mother sixes don't kill adultery is seven theft is eight false witnesses nine covetousness is ten and i'm like wait a minute wait a minute um now islam and judaism obey number two you go to a temple or a mosque you will not see any figurative art guess what humanity has all cons guess who violates the second amendment every day and twice on sunday right so one of my big questions is this why does christianity constantly and flagrantly violate the second commandment like what is up with that they got into propaganda early exactly so i want to go back into lighter lighter waters because as i was searching around for what's a decent operating system the one i got really was from tick not han is deep listening and loving speech i get this to me if if we all practice this if we learn to listen better which goes back to the conversation we were just having and then speak lovingly meaning don't assume the worst right start from start from an assumption of trust etc etc i'm actually i need to put this under examples of the relationship economy in action i need to put simple basic things like that deep listening and loving speech needs to show up there so for me this is a really nice operating system for humanity you start from this and lots of other good things happen you start from this then the whole notion of rights like freedom of speech and whatever like well this this is this is there right this this this will take us to places where we figure out where do your rights and in order mind begin kind of thing so anyway i thought i would share that and then pause again i want to go back to listening for a second and something you mentioned earlier i can't remember the man's name he said one one sentence of my brain is not working here priming one priming sentence changed everything so in my work what i do with people is i prime them to listen and i take them through a combination of some old indigenous practice and autosharmers for levels of listening tied to breath so as i move them deeper and deeper through their breath into their body i have them move from i'm not really listening i'm just listening for agreement where i don't have to think very hard about what's going on to oh my goodness you disagree with me now i need to be more grounded in my body or i'm going to have problems too i'm now listening for what is it like to be you what are you moved by what are you interested in what are you passionate about what are you afraid of what's it what's it really you know what's your life experience that are coming out as you're talking and then the last one is what's in liveening in this conversation it's it's a core principle that i've been exposed to for a long time now that the future is born in the present moment through conversation so that means there's always a threat of aliveness so what is that and can we identify it and sometimes it's easy because someone will say something and with the hair on our arm stands up like that's alive you know where or we go oh no and that's alive too in a different way right so um and then once i've got people through that that somatic process i take them into now get into pairs or triads and tell a story of someone who was an important mentor for you when you were a child or an adolescent don't go too much past that because then you start in those those eras in in our age we tend to be idealistic right and share that and what happens as a result is oh and the people listening their job is to listen with their hands on their bellies from those deeper levels and then um feedback as you were talking i felt this i had these sensations not oh that reminds me of my uncle bob right but you really stay with what's present in your body and in the room you can feel this huge shift of people who had came who'd come in with hardness of proof me this is worth it to wow i now know you at a different level and the conversations that evolve from that are much more productive so i build myself as a conspiracy theorist because if you know that the latin for conspires to breathe together my theory is if you breathe together you'll have better conversations i invite people to prove my theory by by doing this priming and then moving into more difficult conversations but only after they've heard each other talk about something real alive and human that we can all relate to because everyone can go oh man i feel like i know your grandmother now that is so cool thanks for reminding me of the etymology of conspiracy i just put it in um i also changed uh don't kill to don't murder per gill's note in the chat and then per what ken was just saying about paying attention to your body i wanted to take us sort of out to the edge of that i don't know if any of you've heard of bestful vander kulk um one of many brilliant people in dealing with psychological trauma uh in fact i have a thought healing uh healing from or dealing with trauma which has a bunch of these people richards towards the heckler nadine berkeras uh gabo matt is fantastic there's a bunch of them but uh bestles book the body keeps the scores particularly interesting these days because we the body sort of stores a lot of stuff that is trauma and i'm i'm really interested in trauma because i think one of one of the people who affected me a lot is alice miller and i don't go into alice miller waters very often um because they tend to be pretty uh controversial but one of uh if you want to find an interesting thought in my brain go to contrarians who make or made sense this is part of my belief so it's right under my beliefs it's purple so it's easy to find these are all people who've who've sort of absolutely influenced my point of view about why i think the way i think um alice miller was a psychotherapist in switzerland who wrote drama of the gifted child she wrote enough books that i've got a separate thought about her about her books so here's the drama of the gifted child uh das drama des begabten kindis in 1979 uh about a whole bunch of different things and she convinced me well actually uh my like first love way back when in undergrad introduced me to alice miller's work uh and and convinced me thereby that we we have we have institutionalized a series of kinds of trauma that we don't recognize as institutional trauma that even the things we do to babies automatically without thinking because that's what we do to all the babies are in fact traumatic and call me a snowflake whatever you want but i actually completely believe that um so so i think that uh this notion of paying attention to your body is sometimes extremely difficult because i you know i'm going to over generalize but men often have no read on what their intuition or their body or their emotions are saying and you know i remember long ago when a different girlfriend asked me like so what do you feel and i i like looking inside and it's like fog you know i see i see fog and i'm not quite sure so i started doing some work and that helped a whole ton but but if you go into a conversation where you're asking people to track their body and again i'm fascinated by whatever stories you might have or how you do this because with people who've never taken a look inside and tried to clear a little bit of the fog that's a really hard conversation for them they're in they're in very uncomfortable waters they feel very vulnerable in a way that they don't like feeling if they're with colleagues from work they don't want to feel vulnerable in front of colleagues at work that there's like a whole chain of of things that are unleashed for them if they feel that they're suddenly like in in like quicksand so i'd be curious like how you take that or just a little story maybe yeah uh again it comes to priming so you know it's all context dependent i've done a number of public workshops um most of them in paris in the last two years um and i i have a um a process of of working with the amygdala that i i have people go through but the first thing i do is take them through the listening process and have them pair up or get in trio so that they're they're primed for that um i have them do body scans so i lead them through a body scan a seated and a standing body scan they i do at least two or three of those per workshop and the idea of body scan is not it's not imaginal you're not imagine what it feels like it is observing and the instruction is if as you move through your body you find something that feels like it wants to shift go ahead and shift it you know it's you're perfectly fine to move here um and it's a it's the development of awareness so in one day it's really hard to take people into really deep places although sometimes they get there on their own um so i do the listening i do the body scans and then i i have them um uh i have a k it's a mirrored k on the floor so i i put tape on the floor in the form of a k and i have about a foot and a half between it and the reverse image and on one side is the fight flight freeze response um and on the other side is feel flow and tendon befriend and in the middle is their fear and i had somebody brought a dragon it's the lovely dragon that we put in the middle so that people go and stand in each one they name a fear for themselves and there is those stand in each one of the fight flight or or fear responses um fight flight freeze responses and actually embody it so you know if you're fighting throw some punches if you're if you're fleeing run in place if you're frozen really freeze them and put that on your face like oh you know and then shake it out and go to each one and then um after you experience all three go stand in the one that is um feels like your default response around this particular fear and then we're going to move across we're going to take that big leap and step across our fear and the opposite of freeze is to feel so what would it be like if i felt what this fear really is how would i what would i experience my body and the opposite of of um flee is to flow what if i just instead of running from this flowed with it how would that inform me what would i do and again i'm asking people organize your nervous system and your body in a way that allows you to do that make facial expressions breathe that way make gestures and the opposite of fight is to tendon befriend say so if this wasn't a um uh an immediate threat to my existence but i know it is a threat out there how could i go over and say what are you here for what what information do you have for me um why are you showing up for me and uh how could we work together and then i i have people debrief that and that's that's like a two and a half three hour exercise because it's a lot of stuff um wonderful and what i what i got that was so interesting so i had this this this french engineer there and um when we were doing that he was so he's like well how do i know which one to step into i said it doesn't matter because you're gonna go to all three says no no i need to know which one to go to from which one is first that's gonna change everything i said it doesn't matter go to the one your body is drawn towards but how do i know which one my body is drawn towards he really had that that wall you know in in chinese um martial arts like a keto you have three centers you have your the head center the heart center and the gut right and you can be cut off most people are cut off from one of the other and his cut off was at the neck he didn't have any sense of his body right other people that's big on heart and they don't know what's going on down below or they don't know what's in their head so he was really cut off from his body and i had him do a couple body scans and couple body scans and he was able to do it and then he did the the listening exercise and he reported back he said as i was listening to my partner describe her mentor i felt like a whole thing in my brain opened up and there was this movie of her life flashing before my eyes and i got so much more information than i have ever received before from anybody and i was like dude you just had a major major breakthrough today you know you really he shifted because in my experience information doesn't change people but somatic experiences engaging them in deep conversation and moving their bodies and having them explore what are you afraid of and what are you what do you want to move towards really has the power to move people and change their behavior in important ways that i think are are ignored by the vast majority of conferences and workshops that i've been to i i don't want to go to someplace where people are talking at me anymore it doesn't work for me and i don't do this nearly enough when i facilitate like like if i remember i get people to get up and move around or whatever i don't do enough of what you're doing um it's lovely well let's do a workshop jerry yeah that'd be great um i i just went to the fight or flight response which is is is in in wikipedia as fight or flight it doesn't have freeze so i just added or freeze response and then i noticed that i didn't realize i put this in before but i have the tendenber friend response by shelly taylor uh who's a psychologist at uc la uh who's who's one of whose students i guess is students susan fisk that's interesting too uh because susan works on social cognition she's a princeton social psychologist who's worked on the uh is the person i'm thinking about yeah the the competence the warmth and competence model have you heard of this i've not so and and and what's i i go here with a little bit of trepidation because i think what you were just talking about is much more important than this but but this is a popular model among managers and executives and companies who are trying to figure out how do we how do we build customer loyalty that's why i've got it connected to customer loyalty right and so there's a stereotype content model that was developed but but it's like organizations that exhibit warmth and competence are seen as good you want to go toward them you want to affiliate with them you want to give them give them your loyalty like warmth builds trust and you'll notice i i put the parenthetical da after that um and uh so it's it's interesting people one of the problems here is that people tend to see warmth and competence as inversely related right yes there's an article here just because i'm nice don't assume i'm dumb written by Amy Cuddy who's also connected to that research is that a culturally bound perception very likely very likely culturally bound in different ways across the world yeah and i suspect part of that has to do with with gender difference as well you know um men who are are warm and competent you know tend to be seen as snowflakes as Jerry said earlier you know it's like you you know it's um i've had people tell me that that um they can't be seen as nice because it's seen as weak you know you can't be respectful and and cordial because that's weak and it's like no i think it's actually strength and we have um bernay brown's work on vulnerability you know that shows that when you're vulnerable people go wow i want to move towards you it's when you're being an asshole if you want to run away um something in here that i haven't seen pop up in your brain jerry is uh the concept of limbic resonance do you have something in that in here the general theory of love excuse me uh let's see my machine is slowing down a little bit limbic hijacking limbic regulation uh limbic system limb but uh general theory of love talks about limbic resonance yeah um that was the first place i came into that and that's something that i think judy mentioned earlier where you walk into room and you know instantly oh there's been something going on in here that i need to be really careful about or you walk in and go resonance resonance yeah okay i'm adding it and i will look it up and do more on it in fact i'm gonna go right now with um with the work of heart mouth actually uh-huh when you when you come into when you're when your nervous system is calm i have a qigong teacher and when i i get within 30 feet of this guy my whole body goes ah you know he's got this field i experienced i was kind of a children also i was at a uh lecture she gave and i went up to talk to her and i was about 10 feet away and i was standing talking to her and i realized i can feel this woman's calmness is just there's this calm radiating from her that is palpable in my body this is i'm gonna stand this is lovely i mean maybe i have some more questions you know so there is a very there is there's something palpable if you're attuned to it maybe it's hard to better i think we all insulate ourselves from it unconsciously frequently um i had sort of an epiphany years ago and was suddenly being bombarded with these signals from everyone i encountered from the supermarket to the gas station to wherever and i had to talk to a friend who was a really good spirituality person um about how to guard a little bit about that not to become hardened or versed to it but conscious of it and and monitoring my own response to the speak and it was a powerful four step lesson it was like something simple like notice name consider options execute but you notice that you're stepping into it and you give it a name to give it an identity so you can frame it and then you decide how open you want to be to hearing it or whether you need to be protective or whatever that might be and then you can execute but you're executing with a sort of a great imagery imagine a semi permeable bell jar around you protecting you from whatever you need and if you put that in place it will protect you yeah and it works i mean i've used it when i've gone into angry rooms and it works because it allows me to sort of dial and i don't have to shut people out but i think what you're talking about ken would be a wonderful topic for a an hour or more is discussion in terms of these dynamics so add that to your list Jeremy do you want to frame that as a question or as a statement for a topic for a call and i'll type it into our like to have it as a topic for a call how would you phrase it oh good question ken why did you phrase it yeah if you want to ken if you want to put that in the chat that'd be okay think about it for a little bit put in the chat i just wanted to do two slightly distracting things with my brain while you do that and notice that we're getting close to 90 minutes so we should probably wrap at the half because i could go on all day like this but but but um so i went to snowflake because we talked about snowflakes and just a couple of amusing things uh snowflake is an urban dictionary phrase urban dictionary is not safe for kids but boy is it funny for definitions and all that kind of stuff so i use it you know every now and then like bro and brony and all that kind of stuff um so i connected snowflake to identity politics to neologisms that fueled trump and the alt right coxervatives and snowflake i guess i didn't put that many here um um and it sort of comes from this this notion that you are not the beautiful or unique snowflake from fight club so snowflake kind of kind of found broad popularity from the movie fight club actually probably from the movie i should connect this to the you are not the beautiful snowflake just because the movie was much more popular than the book i think and then that snowflakes are creating a backlash like the snowflake rebellion right backlash against multiculturalism uh everett piper you know oklahoma university president slams the snowflake rebellion they're angry about all these snowflakes coming up the sort of identity politics has become a target of its of its in itself which is something i'm extremely interested in it's one of those good touchy issues that i think is worth maybe maybe we open that kind of worms up for a different uh a different inside jerry's brain call i think that would make a nice a nice topic as well um and then i wanted to go back to what was the what was the page we were on oops um when we started i had i was basically looking at a list of facilitation things what was on that list uh let me see if i can find it just by typing one because it usually does most recent uh no no no none of those shoot it's in one of my tabs but my my um instrument panel is basically blocking my tabs hold on a second let me go back out of that find it see someone else says as many tabs open as i do i know so the seven principle fears conversations that's what i'm looking for so let me go back to sharing fearless find fierce conversations okay yep fierce conversations let me go back to fierce conversations and show you one other thing that might be amusing so here's the seven principles of fierce conversations i'm going to connect that to one of my favorite thoughts in my brain which is enumerated wisdom i think so here goes enumerated wisdom so i have just linked this really like i think these are phenomenal instructions i've just linked it to enumerated wisdom which is the five wise the five wise process five myths about health care around the world five things young folks should do five ways to think about ethics five steps to create a new habit so just randomly to go to this one this is an article so i could go to it it's from test marshal out of zen habits and the practice of the new habit is more important than the habit itself that's interesting so anyway i collect up things that look like interesting useful lists under enumerated wisdom if it doesn't look like a list i have a thought called non enumerated wisdom where i put things that don't say five three seven nine two or whatever and then i have one called dubious enumerated wisdom which is uh which is uh the four cognitive modes the adapter the mover this is from a new map of how we think top brain bottom brain which is steven costlin and here's a book on hem basically i believe in hemispheric specialization and this is a book trying to debunk hemispheric specialization so so i wrote here i disagree with this logic and then when they talk about the four cognitive modes i put that on a dubious enumerated wisdom sorry to be whipping through things so quickly um notice that dubious enumerated wisdom i have over the 10 commandments i i just realized that right um so you too and cubby why did i do that because i read the book and i like it um it's superficial though yeah he's basically ticking off why we trust people who promise they're going to do something really it just it's very surface behavioral rather than um deeper change and ken what i liked about what you were saying was sort of the depth of affiliation and association of things that you do in your workshop which i agree would take a lot more time because it's bordering on moving into the spiritual and and a lot of awareness that doesn't come easily to some people but your model works because i had an employee who was the most oppositional guy in meetings i'd met in years and he would come back the next day with constructive suggestions the second time he did that i said what's going on here because you react this way but this and he explained a family dynamic of jumping to decisions that had adverse consequences and i said because your suggestions are so i said well why don't i give you the topics and the input the day before so you're not cold in the meeting and he said would you do that and i'm like yeah and so it was like a flip switch for him and his i i started getting some people in the organization what you do to john judy i mean and i i'm not even sure he was aware of why he did what he did until i asked the question you know that but um your model is deeper when i work with groups around that i say any really important decision that you make make it in pencil and then come back in three days and revisit if it's all possible because let system two thinking kick in because you know that the next morning you you're in the shower you go oh my god i just thought of something that's really gonna impact this right and we rush to action so quickly i i honestly think that if we could put that pause button in in so many places it would it would make the world a much better place and the the rush to action is the whole reason i i developed cooperative conversations there's two conversations before you start coordinating action if you don't do those you have a lot of problems so um you know i i really love what you're you're saying there i think it's very very important agreed and can i took you the the way you phrase the topic then i put it in the spreadsheet for upcoming inside jerry's brain topics okay and all we need to do is pick a date and time and i'll send out an invite and we can see what happens once you and i do that offline and um maybe i can talk to you a little about how you see that unfolding so just be useful for me to talk that through with you yeah that sounds great and judy if you want to make sure you're on the call we'll make sure we schedule with you yes i would like to be on the call this is like my heart's own of what i'm most interested in delving into love that there's in all kinds of things but this is a really core value framework um we are now at 90 minutes can you're about to say something i'd love to hear what you're gonna say there there is one thing that flashed across your screen really quickly that i'm very interested in i would love a call on dangerous knowledge oh good oh great let me really intriguing little you know oh my god i want to see dangerous knowledge you know so so let me uh enter it this is where i'm planning out what to talk about in the future uh it's on this is on the website so if you go to inside jerry's brain dot com you will see upcoming topics or something like that i've embedded the spreadsheet on one of the pages for the website um and if you're on if you're on the inside jerry's brain google group you have permission to edit this um so uh judy i don't are you on the i don't think you i've got you on the inside jerry's brain list yet but i'll i'll add you to it or are you i think you might know okay i'll make sure you'll you'll see a little google group's invite to be on that list which is where i announce upcoming calls you know that kind of thing i think i am but double check it i think we did this once before and i wasn't the first time but you maybe added me and or invited me but double check and send it again if you need to sounds great we'll do we'll do and gila will add you as well i really like this system in all works um any closing thoughts any last words for this call thank you thank you thank you thank you great to hear from all of you folks hope to have a camera working in the future it worked briefly we we could see you at the start it was nice that was my phone but then the phone signal was so weak i had to switch to laptop very dazzled as always thanks everybody this is totally fun and uh uh send comments to the inside jerry's brain list if you want to talk this through i'm going to post this video to youtube and then send a link to that to the inside jerry's brain list put it on the website if i remember to do all these things i need my own like provenance checklist so uh for like media management because i'm i'm i'm the chief the chef the the chief the cook and the bottle washer well this this is is really helpful and i found myself taking notes and then halfway through realized i didn't have to i could just wait for the youtube to come back and then i could capture a bunch of these things that i can't remember instantaneously sweet and i wish that there were a feature in the brain that let me just copy paste the breadcrumbs the everything i've just clicked through that would be at least you could then sort of sort through which ones will i touch but not not a feature i will see if harlon would ever think about building that in so um thanks everybody this was phenomenal um i will see you guys there's another call friday at 10 a.m if you're not out chopping for deals uh we'll go from there what are the area buddy um topic what's the topic for friday the topic for friday i think is vulnerability and trust because i'm really interested in bernay's approach to that um and very inspired by her and a bunch of other thinking on on this so that's that's the topic great cool so this friday at 10 and uh we'll try to make sure that everybody's in the conversation all right happy thanksgiving take care thanks guys bye bye thanks bye