 Great to have you back here on the breakfast and plus TV Africa. Our next conversation or major first major conversation this morning is going to be on the NSA's panel report. The vice president and of course NEC has you know set up a committee that will look into the reports and the findings from the NSA's panel. The vice president, Professor Yemi Oshimbajo is chairing that panel and of course Nigerians are looking forward to whatever these findings are and what levels of implementation would be entirely necessary. What reforms also will be needed and would be immediately put to work. Immediately these findings are released. So we're speaking this morning with Nick Agoulet who's joining us from the UK. Good morning and thanks for joining us sir. Good morning. Thank you very much. Nice to be here always. Yeah all right so the the panels across the country of course have been going on for months now some of them have been you know reasonably successful and others you know seem to have been dragging their feet. There's I think in Kogi state the you know panel never even sat for any day but there's been findings, there's been deliberations, there's been you know some of them of course conclusions with regards compensation for victims of SARS brutality and the likes. As the panel report is meant to be released and for Senator the vice president where do you think the major focus would be on from the vice president? Thank you very much. It's actually a hot warming to know that states actually set up panels and the panels sat and some of the states the panels have already concluded their work and they have written their reports. I will say kudos to all those states and the panelists and those who appeared before them because it is a step in the right direction and none of the reports in some states are ready. It is also a step in the right direction for the vice president to convene the meeting to look into these reports. So it shows that this is not the usual way of setting up panels and the reports we never hear about the reports or when the reports are released they are not implemented. So we hope that the vice president will follow through with the reports of these panels and implement the recommendations. All right Mr Agouye I need to ask you about this you know reports that we've seen. First of all the key thing is that we need police reforms that I mean that's been glaring from the get go. So what sort of reforms do you think we need to see in the Nigerian police force? Well there are short term, medium term and long term reforms. In the short term meaning what needs to be done immediately is for the Nigerian police as currently constituted to be empowered and when I say empowered they should be empowered on different fronts. First and foremost their training as a police organization they need ongoing training of their personnel in their duties of law enforcement and law enforcement is better if it is preventative. So prevent crime from taking place and not chasing after crime. So there is that training aspect of the police to see their duty as people who prevent crime. So there should be a lot put into crime prevention more than crime fighting and also they need equipment to do their work. I mean we see the kind of rickety vehicles you know that are police used. We see the kind of barracks or residences where they live. I mean there is a video recently of a police officer complaining that his transfer allowances have not been paid since he was transferred to a new location. So those are the kind of things in the short term that government needs to look after as well. In the medium to long term and this conversation has occupied national attention for a while we need to look at our policing. You don't find nations that have national police that we have in Nigeria. Police is pretty much local. In the UK where I am now we are not even talking about policing at local government level. You are looking at policing at city level. So London where I'm sitting now they have their police force and if you go to the next city they have their police force. So we should not even be talking about Lagos state police. We should be talking about Ikeja police, Ikorodu police and these police are not reporting to any inspector general or police at the national. These police are reporting to the mayor of Ikeja, to the mayor of Ikorodu founded and commanded by him. That is the kind of policing that we need in Nigeria. A policing that is local, a policing that understands the terrain, a policing that is distributed across the country. We currently have a national police with a single inspector general or police who reports to a single boss, the president of the country. The inspector general or police in Nigeria is not doing his work very well. That means the entire policing system in Nigeria is not going to be effective. So we've put all our heads in one basket. But if we took policing to be local and you have Ikeja police and then you have Ikorodu police you will discover all over the country there will be a lot of the police commands that will be effective. This is one thing that we need. We need policing to be taken away from the national down to the local so that policing is brought close to the people. And also like here in the UK you have specialized police. So Heathrow Airport, which is just here around the corner from where I'm sitting, they have their own police and the police in Heathrow Airport that is their job. When they join the police they know how to police an airport. It's not as if tomorrow you will transfer an officer from somewhere you know and then say go to Heathrow no no no these people their job is to police an airport from their first rank to the highest rank. Even institutions like universities have their own police. So at the end when you have policing distributed like this it becomes more effective. So these are the kind of things that we need to be touching on in terms of making our policing to work in Nigeria. Some of the things that you mentioned might be a stretch, seeing the issues that we currently have with funding the Nigerian police as it currently is. But something I want to ask, the conversation this morning and the necessity of police reforms in Nigeria, the issues and the challenges the police have had, they've had them for a very very long time. Do you think that the ENSA's panel report would be enough motivation for the Nigerian government to look deeper and take these necessities more seriously? The ENSA's panel reports are not privy to what's in the reports now but I can imagine that the reports will include amongst other things a reform of policing in Nigeria and I will expect that the vice president who is leading government's efforts in this direction to see these recommendations true. I mean time is no longer on his side because the current government has less than two years to leave office but they can start the process like they can start the process of constitutional amendment. I mean I was describing policing local to the to the level of local government. We might not go like you said to that extreme but at least we can start by taking policing down to the state level so that each state forms and oppresses their policing system. So I expect the vice president to follow through with these recommendations which will then transform into reforms into the reform of our entire security architecture and not just the Nigerian police. There are other you know security agencies in Nigeria that equally need to be reformed so that we can have security with that security every other government we come to note as we are seeing right now in Nigeria. Sadly some of the things that you've mentioned and then some of them you know including state policing might have to go with the same conversation that many Nigerians are having now with regards restructuring and of course you are aware of the Nigerian government stand with regards restructuring and being able to let go of some of these agencies and be and let states have control of their security forces full control. So do you think that might also become a hindrance seeing the government's attitude towards some of these conversations? Initially this government was not favorably disposed to discussions about restructuring in terms of the policing but in recent times I have been hearing conversations from the presidency and the states including some of the governors on the ticket of the ruling party who are now speaking in favor of the devolution of pass including policing. So I believe that there is the government has come to that realization that these some of these discussions because you see the thing is that when we talk about restructuring some people try to give it a correlation which is something close to cessation and that has been giving restructuring a bad name but if we look at restructuring in terms of what we're speaking about which is the federal government looking at the 68 items on the exclusive list in the constitution of the federal republic and releasing some of those those items on the exclusive list to the states and local government which includes policing I think is a good thing and the current government is now favorably looking to that to that to that direction what needs to happen is our constitution needs to be amended so these are the kind of things that you engage the the the national assembly who are currently in the process of amending the constitution to release things like policing to the states so that we cannot begin to have funding and running because you see the advantage is that if we release policing to the states and a kaduna state police might be more effective than fct police you know legal state police might be more effective than open state police but at the end of the day we are going to have pockets of effective police forces around the nation and then they begin to form a standard of comparison of other police forces you know because let's let's look at the numbers let's look at the numbers the the metropolitan police that is currently policing me where i'm sitting now in london in the city of london their annual budget is about four billion pounds they have over 44 000 police officers just to police the city the new york police department which is funded by the city of new york their annual budget is six point five billion dollars they have nearly 40 000 police officers will police in the city of new york let us put that in comparison with nigeria the entire nigerian police force of 36 states and the fct the total budget allocation in the 2021 federal government budget is 400 billion naira if we translate 400 billion naira into dollars it's less than one billion dollars so the entire nigeria is funding the police with less than one billion dollars and new york is funding police with six point five billion dollars how can nigerian police be effective with that kind of funding because let's not forget it is the same vehicle that the new york police department will buy that the nigerian police will buy they are all buying goods from the same market so just look at in comparison you will discover that the the funding of the police is so abysmally poor that there is no way we can get anything useful out of that kind of policing system you can't give what you don't have but if we devolve police to the state and each state is not putting a budget aside for policing if you aggregate that budget it will be far more than the budget that the federal government is committed to policing today so that is going to be a decent advantage to all but the federal government releasing devolving power such as policing to the states okay miss aguwe in addition to you know funding the police for them to buy all the necessary equipment that they need um would you also um talk about their salaries because i personally have interviewed some policemen they told me their salaries just 50 60 000 naira for all the work that they do and you know this also in a way emboldens corruption doesn't it and that is all part of the funding discussion because a properly funded police force will not only equip the officers to discharge their responsibilities it will also take care of the welfare of the officers the reason why i mean one of the best paying jobs in london we are speaking to you now is the police one of the best paying jobs in the uk is policing so when you see a police officer we paid we maintained you know even you your mind will not make you to go and start offering him a five pounds bribe because you you look at him you know that this guy is just is going to take you to the cleaners these guys are driving a BMWs as their official cars that they are using in chasing people around so if we adequately fund the police they're going to get the equipment they need they are going to be paid well there is no reason why the lowest paying police officer in Nigeria should not be going home with 250 000 naira for a start there's no reason why there's no reason why you go to the police barracks and and and you you think you are in some sort of slum and then there's one other thing that is very crucial in terms of funding the police here in the uk we are speaking to you now all of us the over 60 million uk citizens are also engaged in policing work how do i mean the government has provided us an emergency number 999 okay when we see something that looks as if it is a criminal activity either to happen or is happening we pick our phones would that mean we have become police informant or kind of pseudo police officers we pick our phones we call and then the police respond to that incident immediately as simple as something like that Nigeria doesn't even have it Nigeria does not have an emergency number i hear there is a is it two one or something but it's not effective Nigeria needs to spend small money and put in place a command and control center with an emergency number that is linked on every gsm network so that when citizens see a crime about to happen or is happening they just call the police and the police respond quickly to that crime scene well i think i think i think the situation where the police will go and mount road block yeah when they mount road block they are only policing that place where they have mounted road block there is no response system if crime is happening in the next street is that good i think all of this needs to change i think all of this still goes back to the conversation on funding because the Nigerians once in a while still make those calls you know to police numbers in different states but it's the ability to respond to those calls that is the challenge sometimes there's no petrol in vehicles sometimes you need to mobilize them you know and different reasons sometimes of course they come you know two hours after the incident has taken place it still goes back to the conversation on funding being able to invest more in information technology invest more in technology to help with policing in Nigeria some other part you know that i feel we have you know been lacking for a long time is the levels of accountability and punishment for airing officers it's one of the reasons why there of course was the end SARS protests in the first place the fact that policemen went rampage across the country SARS officers went rampage across the country and were committing crimes without getting punished so how do you think that this panel report and the vice president will be able to create more conversations on accountability and punishment for airing officers it's a very good point that you have raised and it is one of i mean to me it is Nigeria's singular problem the lack of accountability we are not enforcing the law we are not holding people to account i mean anywhere in the world if human beings realize that they can do something wrong and they can get away with it they'll probably do it the reason why i will probably not beat the traffic light if i leave my home now is because i know there's a camera mounted on the traffic light and if i beat it i'm not going to be let free the repercussion of my action is going to to start chasing me about within a few days so that is one thing that in Nigeria we have to start to do we don't have problem with laws we have all sorts of laws Nigeria is a country with so many laws the problem is enforcement of these laws if someone goes controlling to the laws of the land he has to be heard a cat for it he has to be brought to justice and we're not seeing that we're not seeing that like you rightly said amongst not just the police but other law enforcement agencies in Nigeria well we have seen the cases of human rights abuses that have gone unpunished and it's the same thing that happens in even in official cycles like in government offices where people can take money that is meant for the provision of essential services to the citizens and nobody does anything to them we we are in a country where someone's salary as a director probably or a permanent secretary or a minister we know what the salary is and they are clearly living above their means and there is no system that goes after them to say look you explain to us how you come about this money so that is a very key ingredient in our law enforcement apparatus to say we have to and and that goes back to the conversation that I was saying some of these things are coming from training you know you have a culture an organizational culture a young police officer who joins the police today if he comes into a culture where you know you can slap people you know you can harass people you can molest people are nothing happens he's most likely going to adopt that culture so we need to retrain our officers so that they understand that policing is no longer what it used to be that people's human rights have to be respected all the time so it's a very good point that you have read and I believe the vice president part of his his terms of reference in implementing this reform should include the fact that policing police officers have to be paid to account for their actions all right i'm still talking about police reforms regarding the end sars protests during that period you know people came up to say that sars officials picked their brother their friend and they have been in police custody for months you know I also had you know people that I knew within you know the sars and they you know go ahead to tell me stories about how they arrested so-and-so person and the person has just been languishing there because maybe the parents can come up with the money that they're asking for to build a person so one of the police reforms regarding the end sars protests we'll just say we need to overhaul you know some laws guarding policing to say that if the law specifies that a person should not be held within a few hours that should be what it is rather than the police officer having the power and authority to keep someone in police custody for months on end until the family can bring money it's another very solid point that you have raised and I think the solution is not in the overhaul of the law the laws are already there I mean I'm not a lawyer but I think we have a law that says if you arrest someone there is a time limit is it 24 or 48 hours I can't remember that you must either charge this person to court or release them so it's back to the question of enforcement of our laws we have that kind of law and then someone is is arrested and for months or even years they are in detention they've not been charged to court and they have not been released then the people who are responsible for such human rights abuses should be held to account that is what we need it is just for people whose job is to enforce the laws to enforce them so if a DPO is not enforcing the law then the area commander should enforce the law if the area commander is not enforcing the law then the commissioner of police in that state should enforce the law or the AIG of that zone should enforce the law or the IG of police should enforce the law and if the IG of police is not enforcing the law the president who is his commander in chief should enforce the law until we start enforcing the law we cannot get anything out of humanity humanity was made to be run by the law the the god who made humans you know as as the manufacturer of humans he has given us a template to run humans and that template is the law if you don't run humans with the law you are not going to get the best out of humans that's what it means i mean there was a recent picture or a viral video recently of a diplomat a whole diplomat from one of these western nations he stood on the highway and he was easing himself you know but that man can't do that in his own country but then he goes to a country where the law is not being enforced and he's doing it so that is humanity for you the same nigerians you see in nigeria breaking the law you bring them to the uk and they will be obeying the law you know they are not doing the kind of things they were doing in nigeria so you can see that it has nothing to do with our nigerianness it has everything to do with the system when we are so if a nigerian is in a system where the law is being enforced like in the uk he obeys the law if he's in Lagos where the law is not being enforced it doesn't obey the law so we just have to enforce the laws there has to be a system to enforce the laws and if the people we have elected into office are not enforcing the laws we the people who elected them have to force them to enforce the laws all right mr nica willi we do agree we need police reforms all right thank you very much southern for joining us this morning we hope you do have a great day thank you so much so let's have pleasure okay so we got in police reforms we really can't wait to see you know what exactly would be the outcome of that meeting when they meet to this consider because that's the what the user will consider implementing the recommendations yes the resolution well there's people who said you know is just playing to the gallery um and you know so i think it's one of the reasons i asked the very first question or second question i believe um for a long time we've known that we have these issues it's not just because of the ensar's protest the ensar's was probably just a boiling point um in 2020 um there's very you know still possibilities that there might be another boiling point you know you know in the future where people say enough is enough with regards police issues or security issues but we've known about these things for a long time at what point did we need to get to the you know ensar's protest before the Nigerian government realized the lapses in the police system and so is the report of that panel going to be enough motivation for the Nigerian government to say okay yes maybe i want to believe so i want to believe that the ensar's protest and the judicial panels of inquiry are not in vain even though only 11 states have concluded the hearing 18 are still you know hearing all the cases brought by ensar's protesters and a few other states like kogi have not even sat even though they are those factors i want to believe that they're not in vain the fact that you know the national executive council will meet professor your mission budget would you know discuss this with state government and they will find a way to end this menace so two two things you know like he mentioned the first one is uh you know on funding uh we have a 400 billionaire budget annually uh for the police uh do you expect that the Nigerian government will be able to push for two trillionaire annual budget for for the Nigerian police we have to we have to start so the thing is so the thing is Nigeria can't even afford it as it stands as as we currently are we can't afford it um do we have enough interest to say okay let's do you know 700 billionaire 800 billionaire annually for the police auditing with police funds also the 400 billionaire how much of it is actually released where does all this money go to these are questions that need to be asked all that auditing needs to get into into play here to understand why every single penny that is budgeted for the police every year um hasn't gotten and then also um with regard state policing um do we expect that the Nigerian government will say okay well we accept from the recommendations of this panel we accept that we actually need to activate uh state policing and you know change the current structure of policing in Nigeria that's you know those are the two major I feel the two major aspects that a lot of Nigerians don't have faith that we will be able to I have faith I believe we'll get there it's it wouldn't happen overnight I want to sound like I have I want to sound positive also all right let's take a break here and we'll return to join a lawyer Mr Mundial Bani to discuss jumbo salaries for national assembly do stay with us