 Nothing's recording is on she's back. Yeah, I'm a lady with the back with me with this Glad to see you're feeling good Matthew I'm still actually not a hundred percent. Well, I'm still coughing and I'm going to get my lungs scanned and stuff like that Nothing really serious, but just can't can't get rid of it, you know, so but I'm seeing a specialist now So it's getting in the hand. So that's cool. Nothing to worry about, but it's just a bit irritating Glad to hear it. How about you, Joey? How are you being? good, I know a little bit of travel and Other kinds of things good just Excited to hear everybody and sort of move our stuff forward together a bit more. So yeah, yeah last time we spoke you were actually You were calling in from Bucharest Was it was that far back? Wow was that far back? Yeah, and that was when I was asking, you know This pilot project massive wiki thing. Does it is it should it be you know, where should it be? Where should it where should it be? How does it sort of position as with respect to fellowship and OGM because I'm so new to this space, you know I just don't know where where it begins Cool. Shall we check in that way? Sure, since it says so on the agenda. I mean heck we've got an agenda we have High-tech note-taking capacity the whole thing So Let me just let me just sort of catch up for a second because a couple interesting things Last week I was at the linux foundations annual member summit all week for two funny reasons One is april gave a speech there a keynote speech on tuesday and I was not going to go with her But we know brian bailendorf who's been a member of the foundation is part of the birth story of apache and a bunch of other things We've known him for years. So she wrote him a note saying hey Did you have anything to do with my getting the speaking engagement? He said nope didn't go through me at all But is jerry coming and she said nope not planning on coming and he said oh he should totally come as my guest So so then we made plans and I I went and then He thought about it for a second and he is now running the open ssf Which is about open source supply chain security open source supply chain security so All you know kubernetes and packages and all the layers of software and if you think about it somebody says Oh, I have an open source app You should try but you have to load this library this library this library in this library and like you know Good luck getting all the right versions of all the right pieces. It's that it's a bunch of other things So he had a board meeting on friday that he asked me to help facilitate So I did that with him which was really fun But it was but I'm checking in with that because It was really really interesting For me personally and for me thinking about all these all our projects together To marinade for a week and people leaning in forward heavily into open source Even people from jp morgan chase and other places where you'd be like But uh, but it was great and uh, Pete's heard me check in a little bit about this on a couple of other calls this week, but um I was also highly impressed with how many open source projects are in the basket of the linux foundation And how well they seem to be doing. I mean there's just a lot of very productive work there So it was a great role model, but a little daunting because These things get get huge when they're really working they get huge and they involve a lot of coordination and funding and other sorts of stuff Um, so that was great Um And I'll check in more maybe later as other things get triggered for memory, but who else would like to check in Peter You're muted for some reason Even better. Oh, there we go. I thought it wasn't um, I have too much going on to Figure out what what's going on. Exactly. Your headsets working again. That's good. Yeah, that's good. Um uh we had we have um thinking tools map project Meets at massive wiki um two hours earlier than this So we had another good call Today talking a little bit about projects as we haven't gotten a lot done but we decided that we would kind of expand Since I started the last week anyway, um expand the kimono a little bit uh and invite folks in Fellowship of the link folks in a little bit more than than we have been Um, uh before we do that What's that expand the kimono you said it's a mixed metaphor, but still um I could I'm linking that It's because we've gained weight. We have to expand the kimono Oh I'm kidding Is it not really that sounds like it should be What does that really mean? There's a um There's a term I know from uh venture capital, but it it happens also in financial Financial businesses and stuff like that. Um opening the kimono uh to a close partner is like Um, I'm going to let you peek inside our business. Uh a little bit. It's a bit of a racy kind of term It is a little racy. Yeah, it's also kind of um a little bit racist Because the same organizations also have Chinese walls Chinese walls are where you live on both sides of the wall, but Um, you pretend not to know about the other side at all Depending on which one you you're in um anyway Expanding kimono a little bit at the What we're going to do is probably take a week to Uh amongst the three of us get a little bit better sense of what we were trying to do A more consolidated sense of what we were trying to do with the project and why and and then uh, we'll have a A touchstone um as we talk to more people and and you everybody's gonna have great ideas and and we'll have a better way of saying Yeah, that's outside the scope of what we were thinking or no, that's a great addition to what we were thinking So that's kind of our our next this this week's work Because we're just checking in And maybe not you should go next. Oh, yeah. Yeah Okay. Well, it's nice to be nice to be back in this meeting. I can't usually make it this time, but uh, peter Mentioned a couple of hours ago at our massive wiki meeting that he spilled the beans about our top secret project So I thought I'd just check in make sure that uh, you know, I just wanted to say hello to be honest Find out how much You know, how much interest there might be because we see that at a certain point We wanted to start expanding the number of people who are involved in a sort of series of concentric circles And you're the next concentric circle basically fellowship of the link ogm that sort of thing and uh, we'd love you Because I mean the we're working on these dimensions for describing our tools for thought and all of the dimensions of the map And I boiled those down from three separate documents All of which I got through fellowship of the link that was bent is document There was my con twine stop But there was the third one I found on twitter in fact of different ways of measuring that so just Boiling them down bringing the back to to to you to expand and to continue that Discussion whilst we work in parallel on other aspects of the project Uh, apart from that, um, still ill but getting better. Um Finally took the plunge into mastodon at three o'clock in the morning and I've written a couple of posts on that and what it means for my work In the what we call the Brussels bubble and how to make sure that the Brussels bubble doesn't sort of Stay a little echo chamber now within the 30 verse because it's a bit of an echo chamber on facebook And an echo chamber on twitter be nice for us to avoid doing that in on the 30 verse um Pulled out of the pkg book over the last few days Uh, I know that um, Francine and chris are working on their chapters But you're gonna see my chapter coming out in a series of blog posts in there in the coming months. Um So, yeah, I've got quite a lot on and Work of european condition same as same as basically But yeah, chugging along nice to see you all again. Yeah, likewise Same here You could say uh, you're muted on x bubble And I didn't get your turn. Oh, maybe is that better? Yeah. Yep. I always have issues with uh I don't know is it working? It's tap tap Okay, yes, we hear you. Um I saw in your email a week or so ago. Matthew and i'm sorry I had had a chance to respond to it But I had the same issue. I think you did and we discussed that a few weeks ago on the uh, Uh, the knowledge graph book But I you know, like you I am also not there in part because of The really abysmal contract Uh language that they push So that was one of my reasons the other reason is that we're talking about two different things for two different audiences They they they have a hammer and they want to make a book about nails basically Yeah, and that's fine. The world needs a book about nails, but I I can't really contribute that much to the book Well, either initial contract was just so abysmally bad Like I you know, they guarantee you a payment of zero euros because that's what they guaranteed me I got pretty much It almost read as if I was going to be paying them Yeah, you know they admitted that that's what was going to happen that they needed to revise the contract because otherwise Any changes I made that they would have to implement they would bill me Yeah, I just said I'm not I'm sorry. I'm not paying you for I if I want to van as he published my book I can do that without your help So and I haven't never I've never got a revised contract. So they're not well organized either Yeah, I it's always a lot, but we can move on from there Um, anything else going on in your world? too much, um And I'm not sure how much I I'm watching a lot of the indie web space as Mastodon is having its moment for a few minutes um But I'm also watching a lot of people make the same mistakes of buying heavily into mastodon the same way they had bought into twitter before And they're going to repeat the same cycle. So the Part of part of the question is what are you doing and why and what do you expect to get out of it and what kind of affordances? Which you know impacts directly I think a lot of the things we talk about And you know people like flancy and have a I think a better perspective and more tools to make this a possibility for themselves, but The rest of the masses I think are still kind of missing They just want a free space And we need more than just a free space Or what they think is a free space um, so I'm watching some of the social patterns that are emerging out of it it's also interesting how Big of a hiccup Picking a server and sort of figuring out some of the mastodon-ish stuff has been for the masses of people trying to find an alternative to twitter Yeah, although I have seen one or two people starting to frame it as Mastodon has all these fabulous affordances And it's going to be a while before twitter can catch up with it in terms of functionality and freedom and flexibility, so I it's interesting to see things like that pop up I literally published an hour ago a blog post called am I on the right mastodon instance That was like like the subject of my second Of my second post about mastodon I'm literally posting about me as I'm discovering it as I go, you know, because I'm not an expert I'm just trying to figure it out like everybody else not like everybody else like all the other twitter Migration newbies, but I put the link in chat in case you want to check it out I literally just you're the first people to hear about it. It just went live But it's you know, it's interesting It's actually a collective intelligence tool the the the people on your on your server are essentially Your content discovery algorithm as you get started, and that's sort of pretty cool awesome um And Chris, I wanted to ask you something on you mentioned the issue with sign of and so on An idea got into my head last week, and I don't remember if it was because you said it But the heroes that we need like something like a sign up router Where you could the users could say this is the uh username I want And then the router will say these are all the instances that have the username available and what they are about Sort of like to replicate to to sort of like turn the sign up processing on its head And you know did you say this? That it was better if users first chose the username and then the instance I think the bigger problem isn't so much the the username is usually an easy thing The bigger problem is which instance Of the now more than 3000 You know is going to reflect on a line with my values of what kind of moderation am I looking for? Lack of moderation. Do I want all nazis? Do I want no nazis? Do I want yes, you know And there's 77 different variables that fit into that Decision I don't think there are any tools at all to help people other than Asking my friends who've been there for four or five years But even at that there are now in the last week or two weeks I think there are now a thousand more instances a thousand plus I counted the other day and or did a quick check There's now a thousand new instances That you potentially could join in fact somebody I think mentioned a few that have popped up That I noticed late friday Within the tools for thought space Including another there's another one zettle somebody's Registered zettle castin dot social As a masted on instance. It just isn't or it wasn't live the last time I checked But presumably that will pop up in days and be an option as well. So you know I'm waiting for my local library or my local newspaper to set up their own instance for You know nearby people in the community The internet archive did kind of that they they did it for staff and roll accounts at internet archive I thought that was interesting. I've seen I think I saw one for one european government set up an instance for government workers uh mit I think has one for mit people Chris you may have seen me saying that that's what the european commission should do with its server, which Oh, no, I I think I thought about they should do it and I couldn't find which country it was But there is a germany probably country probably in germany that has set one up specifically for I don't think it was a city level. I think it was a government cabinet level something Which I thought was interesting I have seen one tool that will look for instances close to your geographical region So if you're in the netherlands you can use this thing and find A server that's in the netherlands that ostensibly might serve the netherlands I'm aware of a handful of language based servers. There's one called two dot wales For welsh speakers, although I'd probably about half of it is written in english And I know there's one or two in scots And uh irish which are interesting So it's it's fun to see these things kind of flourish and go somewhere, but You know, I think there's still some missing pieces that And I'll you know, I lost still a lot of work to to make this what everybody would ideally like it to be I'm sort of surprised. There are that few instances of mess that i'm given how This exodus is not that young anymore and There's lots of people trying to find a road away from twitter So seven thousand seven thousand instances of mastodon doesn't seem like that many if this is a distributed community oriented infrastructural thing But most people will what they'll do is they'll use what was the tool I mentioned in my post You know, they'll use the tool to find out where most of their twitter friends are And that will almost always be mastodon dot social. It's a it's a power And or there might be one server, which happens to correspond to their particular area of interest And that would be like the second place and they'll just go to one of those two and The big ones will get bigger and there'll be consolidation. I guess at one point But the whole point is to have been a nice small space where the moderation is local. You know, you're a moderator, you know Should be tailored to your interest and so forth Yeah, anyway, there's it's going to be really interesting to see how this how this shakes out I Sorry, it's kind of a test of the uh indiverse Fediverse, etc. Indie web pediverse It's also a test of how many how much people are expected I'll prepare how many people are prepared to spend a couple of bucks a month To have a voice women before they were used to playing with their privacy You know It's hard enough to get people to pay for content. Even a few years ago. It was almost impossible Become a bit more normal to get people to pay for content now. We're asking to pay for infrastructure And I don't know how many people are going to do that But I hope I hope a lot will I'm going to Yeah, perhaps this is going to be a solution like the uh, 1991 rule Just because like if the people who can't pay can't probably pay for a few hundred users In terms of the cost Yes, hopefully I think it probably responds to that like a social group has like a donation suggested Uh, but only about a third of the users continued and still we have like 20 I think the weird thing too is if you go back To it was probably it started in 2016. So most of the articles I think were march 2017 when mastedon kind of first hit mainstream press And if you go back and look at some of those articles that list A handful of the bigger servers I think they mentioned there was one article I looked at that mentioned six different servers And of those I think only two still exist The others have since shut down and disappeared And did so in a time when you couldn't move any of your data over So I worry that there are a lot of small instances popping up That are well meaning Like this pkm instance, you know, it's lovely and it's great And maybe it stays small enough and can be financially viable enough, but if the one or two people who are paying for it and Putting it out there aren't getting enough help or it becomes a burden or an administrative burden Then it goes down and the 20 or 30 people who are there go down with it Maybe they move somewhere else, but it's going to be a lot more Data disappearing Because you can't take your posts with you So I'm you know ever the indie web enthusiast I always post everything to my site first Even if it's private and then syndicate a copy so that when this place disappears You know, I've got I've got the material, but You know almost nobody else is doing that or worried about it or even thinking about it as a thing And how are you archiving your own site? Yeah, well I archive it on my own site locally and then I have a couple backups further to that as well, so But it's you know a lot of people may just use it for purely social reasons and they're throwing ideas out into the ether and you know You you put them in the trash can and they disappear But the interesting thing I've seen is There are people liking and boosting and you know retuding Things I posted almost a year ago on mastodon That they've dug in and found so it's and I Have seen that more than I have ever seen on twitter Nobody goes into the deep twitter archives unless you do a targeted search for a word and you find happen to find a tweet But I'm people are digging way back into my twitter or my mastodon instance to find things from over a year ago Um, and it's not like you're scrolling 50 You know 50 posts to get that far you're you're scrolling a lot to get that far back Um, and are these posts not searchable through google as google Skirching them so they could find their way directly to a post. I mean, couldn't that be happening? I don't know. I have no idea how I haven't looked into how google's indexing or not indexing right? um, my my main instance is Mastodon dot social Which is about as open and flexible as they come I think um But you know my primary instance is actually my wordpress website which acts as Where it looks like its own instance So I'm one of the few mastodon users that has over 16,000 posts Um, and I think there's a lot of people in the fediverse with that much content yet Although give it a week Um Do we want to go back to the mapping tools? Project topic. Do we want to see our mastodon? Do we want to go to something else? I would love to talk about the mapping tools project because it's quite late when my wife When I told my wife I'd be going coming back for a second meeting after after dinner after meeting Peter and the others and Peter and Bill about massive wiki. She wasn't that impressed So I'd like to I probably might need to stick around for a little longer if that's okay by you sure But um, yeah, I mean we were talking about at the beginning That um, we are working on the dimensions. I think Pete showed you guys that and um We were wondering I don't know quite when we'll be ready But we'd like to invite anybody who's interested to help us work on the dimensions a bit further Um, how much interest is there in in this group? I mean, I'm assuming that you all know what would what we're talking about already I wasn't there last week that pete. I think mentioned it Um, I'm interested and we'll Join you in the conversation. So Should we just take an agenda point next week because we're not quite ready yet Or should we have a dedicated meeting some other time during the week? It feels like just joining the flow of your meetings to be fine unless somebody thinks differently They know what do you think? um I don't know. I don't I don't know that I have a big preference um, I I do like I I like the idea of a focused meeting But the funny thing is our uh, the project meetings are are kind of overlaid on top of massive wiki Wednesday right now Which is fine. I'm not complaining um but And but maybe that's the thing. Uh, I maybe that actually works out better for you, Matthew Uh, we could do next Wednesday, uh two hours earlier than the fellowship call Perfect for me. Yeah I think that that sounds great Okay, so anybody who wants to join us two hours before this meeting, um the massive wiki channel will post the link and um On the fellowship channel Peter better you answer all questions. I'm talking too much Um, what are the what other steps if any did you guys think through for the mapping? Project or is that just something to catch up with on the call? um, there's a uh, uh, there's a I think well, I know I've shared it here. Um Uh We don't have a really Domain yet, so Um, I have to remember it's a weird funny domain um You can use a goal link So there's already a project plan and an about page that says a lot about what we've thought. Um, I feel like things aren't coalesced very well, so you kind of have to poke around and see what's going on, but We have a pretty good idea of what we want to do. Um Uh And I could talk about it, but y'all could read about it too, and that's why better Basically, we want to like we want to make progress on two fronts in parallel on the one hand working on the dimensions So that once we get the fellowship of the link But once we get your inputs because a lot of you gave me inputs to come up the first set of dimensions um We'll work on that in parallel whilst also working on the code and the content and everything so that um Once we we've agreed as a group of the dimensions look like we can actually release this to version two Which is where we actually bring it out to the next concentric circle outwards um And ask for people to start actually providing content and get this thing rolling as Think how much traction we get Um, so yeah better than better to do two things in parallel rather than doing it sequentially otherwise it would take too long Um, Matthew, you think it's okay to post the hack MD. Um from this morning Yeah, sure Let me do that real quick um so So this is it it's not uh It's not complete at all. This was uh, like literally three three or four minutes this morning, but we're Next I think the very next phase is to explain to ourselves a little bit more what we're trying to accomplish And condense the project plan and the about page Uh, maybe some blog posts here from here and there Um into a couple paragraphs. Here's what we're trying to accomplish So, um, I'm also reminded, um, Matthew. There's a cta Archive of thinking tools and their dimensions or something like that that we need to absorb Oh cta Collaborate tools collaborative technology alliance Um, yeah yet another you know yet another great. Okay. Um, if you I'll see if I can dig something out, but um I think we've got a reasonably good start. Um on the air table now. We need to sort of continue And between now and next week, maybe we should have another look at how we're going to get people to contribute their their thoughts directly into air table or In in some sort of parallel document um Since since we ended up talking about masterjohn a little bit earlier Um, it it occurs to me that the same process that we're doing for thinking tools. Um, We can learn a lot about how to build something similar for masterjohn instances Which would be a much bigger project. Um much more exciting in both good and bad ways, but Another idea kicking around is to do pattern languages because I really want to dive into that one day, so I Just said that because I wanted to see Jerry do his thing I'm too too predictable sometimes No, it's lovely I mean, I'm I'm I'm really interested in sort of the meta pattern language idea of how do we take a lot of this Already distilled wisdom and hook it up so that it's more useful more visible more findable all those things That'd be great Including just simple decision trees and stuff. I mean just just for example Um, we don't have any big screen TVs or anything like that And so this holiday season religious it showed that well, it'd be nice to get a slightly bigger screen nothing monstrous like 43 inch The decision tree for buying home entertainment systems. I have not found And because you could rapidly end up buying like all sorts of just Crazy technology and a separate sound system that costs as much as your panel and this and that and the other and like How do you decide what you know, which which is it roku or google team? What what? It's it's massively complicated. It's more complicated than when I bought my apple 2 plus many years ago Which was a geek geeky purchase um and so I why Why hasn't since so many people are interested in more people buying these things Why hasn't anybody put up a good? infrastructure support thing for it So the the more freedom and flexibility you have in choices The harder and more complex your choices become And the problem is all those choices on that decision tree Are provided by 50 different companies None of which service all of the choices And it's so it's and unless they can win on all the points They're not going to create the decision tree that indicates Buy sony top to bottom or buy apple top to bottom That now your choice becomes a whole lot easier if you just say i'm going to buy the sony system or the apple system Right, and then you'll know everything works together at least as a bare minimum But there's too much choice and even Let's say cnet.com Doesn't get enough clicks to make it worth Collecting all those things testing all those things Putting them together and making that tree And five minutes after they make that tree it's obsolete And I I went on on I've forgotten whose advice I went and signed up for consumer reports Which I haven't been using for ages, but it's 40 bucks a year And they've got a bunch of stuff on tv's and I went into the like the tv section There's not simple filters simple ways to like slice and dice the data are missing I'm like, uh, this is not useful But but with a consumer reports thing You should be able to reverse engineer their decision tree essentially And and and plus wire cutter instead of consumer reports I went to wire cutter that wasn't that helpful because they're so simple that they have like a b or c and and like Ooh, this is a more complicated decision than good better best, right? Um, or sorry, uh, chris then flancian chris if you want to unmute and jump in Are you hearing us? No, are you your hand is up? Yeah, I can hear you. I No, I oh, I have no idea how that your hand is up accidentally flancian. I believe put his up intentionally. Let's go there yeah, so, um On the decision trees and why they don't exist. I think I the maintenance and the maintenance Cost is as high. Uh, but just me they wouldn't be useful every but also there's no Currently the incentives are not aligned. I think I I feel I think of this very often Jerry when You know, I do a like a rule search or like a youtube search and then you're like I have an activity in mind like buying eggs and then I say like click a link is useless click a link It's useless click a link. Oh this one is useful And the next user will have to do the same thing That looks like a tree that that navigation path is not informed in any way to any other user Although it is informed to the company. Um, who provides the search So, uh, that's probably why that she can be built very easily. Um Browser school definitely have like an extension could do this like this is what I want to achieve right now So please use all the data I produce in the context of informing What this actual tree should look like for the future user by way and just make standard this data could be crowdsourced But we don't do it. Exactly. There's there's a neighboring function to the decision tree for Name your space buying an electric vehicle buying a tv buying or whatever. There's a neighboring space which is the family tree of the products like oh, you know in In in in 1985 they did a major redesign of this motorcycle So all the models after it are much much better than anything before 1985 That should be like like that should leap out at you in some kind of product tree And then you should be able to slice across and see the contemporary models from competing products To that particular model and say well in this year Yamaha did this Honda did this and here, you know, here's the slice So that's your that's your buying set for that moment Nowhere nothing and I would think that amazon would benefit from this But but obscurity makes for more merchants I think I think that that confusion in the marketplace means more people show up and try to sell stuff And more people try to buy stuff and more stuff gets bought and sold anyway I don't know by recent essentially for products. Yeah, so that way like products that come out like Last they are both by default. Yeah That's right hunch.com. Thank you. Okay. That was katerina fake That was I've got it for down for 2009 I should contact katerina and see what yeah as katerina what she thinks these days. Yeah I remember a little bit about how the technology work. They they created a They built up a thumbnail of your context as a courier and available context about what was out there and I think they invested They invested a bit too much in trying to satisfy The The courier rather like they were not as interested in some underlying knowledge about the world But If they had been there are obviously Ways to get the producers as part of producing You you have to produce documentation about your thing You're producing print manuals that you ship with it. You're you have a tech spec for engineers and so on If people made a version of that that spoke the language of decision trees A lot of this would be easier And I said they were relying on people enough people being interested in the topic to fill out questionnaires To go through the tree and sort of the pachinko process of choosing where you end up would help them build this inferred model the a big problem too is the The lack of information parity So what you want exists jerry, but but you need to be an amazon senior executive to look at the compiled data So to some extent you could go to amazon and look at what's the Recommended amazon basics version of a lot of products And those will be the things that amazon and their infinite wisdom decided were selling through all their other third parties But that we're selling so well we can go straight to china Take over the factory that's making them for all these small party sellers We'll buy it all up so they can no longer sell it and or we'll cut the margin because we can And then sell the the most popular product that everybody's already buying Yeah, but you're also been missing out Who's the uh, what is the bleeding edge buying? What did flancy and buy last week in? You know the social space because that's going to be the thing that's going to be big five years from now I also noticed a couple things years ago It behooves no vendor of stuff to be easily compared to anybody else So you need to create some kind of way to say i'm not the same I'm not the same don't even consider me in the same basket and that might mean you change your warranty terms It might mean you do something else So that's that's one angle Because like each vendor is trying to not be compared because they'll mostly lose And then the other thing is For some reason makers of modern vacuums Which are way more expensive than they ought to be have all decided to do ergonomics and usability as like last on their list And the switches to turn these freaking things on and off or are hidden There's like i'm like how did vacuums get stupider over time? and and and user interfaces are such a major and important criterion purchase criterion It's like when you buy Back in the day when we sort of bought a radio slash whatever for your car Like what the ui Was would be should be really important, but was barely considered by anybody any place And it's like ah man these it's just buying stuff and you'd think that commerce would have so many people interested And I was just reading an article about how tiktok has become like this advertising mecca Where lots of people are selling stuff on tiktok and tiktok is doing really well Even as facebook and twitter and everybody else have all these layoffs. Anyway, sorry for the long digression into just filthy lucre and commerce but It sort of fits alongside our you know decision Dimensions and so forth for evaluating software and comparing software because like these are all problems that are Like right next to each other that aren't being solved elegantly by by anybody as far as I can tell And a lot of these look like coordination problems like like so many problems, right? So this is like I I mean, yes, I wrote in the chat, but it's like quickly So we have naturalized like As consumers, I guess that companies are going to add like siphon our data and browsing history And I actually use them for like a profit like you know crazy tell the amazon case And you know, of course like there's a group of people that just read against this and said like, oh, we shouldn't do that We shouldn't come to the data I say maybe let's just contribute the data to more sources So why not why not save a copy of that data? Uh, I will definitely like opting into like sharing all my amazon all e-commerce related queries search queries All that I will put in the commons like tomorrow And then you know, if like a million people do the same we will have like a pretty okay data set to be in with Mm-hmm Safe way into like what I think Uh moa party or like cross bolsters and in general that that area, you know in the failures has potential to actually unlock It's the part of that problem though, too is how good is the data? So it's a big issue in the podcasting space You go, you know, apple itunes is driving most of the growth Even though they don't care about the space at all But every podcaster will say rate us and review us on iTunes because that's what drives growth But then then you get all these people sending social signals. Hey, this is the best podcast ever And they've listened to one episode Better is you know, so and for that reason I post I don't do it as often now, but the stuff that I listen to on podcasts I'll post every individual episode So when I say hey, this podcast is good You can look back and see how often is he actually listening to it? Does he listen every day every week? Does he listen to all the episodes? Is he a completist? Because the signal of the time I've spent Physically invested into that is a way stronger signal of is this good or not You know, I everybody can say yeah, the Mandalorian is great But I have no idea of how many people actually Really spend all their time and watched every single episode as an indicator of how good is that I have no idea You know, but if I watch social media, I get the impression that it must be awesome because I hear about it all the time But I don't see the actual aggregate numbers Disney plus doesn't say this is how many hours people spend watching this thing And I want that data. That's the data I want, but they're never going to give it to me So we can crowdsource it maybe That's kind of taken away very easily I'm sorry. I wanted to say something. Um, I have I may have to leave in five minutes And I wanted to do a quick check in Uh, because I have something that I think you put interesting, uh, interesting Which is that, um And then I'm happy to resume the other thread until um So I attended on sunday. Thanks to uh, samuel. Thank you for inviting me this amazing workshop uh called synthesis infrastructures workshop And uh, there's one link that was produced as you know, during the workshop I mean one one site that was like maintain a wiki uh synthesis infrastructures wiki, which I've linked in the notes Uh, let me just copy and paste into the chat Uh, which I think was really Thank you. That was really well organized and like it has it had a lot of overlap with the video link I thought there were people from all over the world like many different universities. I thought it was like an amazing amazing, um like group and uh I wanted to say also that I saw that massive wiki was mentioned one of the tools in the space So I thought you will want to be aware peter You learned about this It was covered in at least one session. I was lucky because I got there on sunday I'm going to show the message. Thank you samuel again And like I got there just for the synthesis stage of all the breakout works And so it was like getting like an upload of the whole conference like in like, uh, two three hours It was really good. Uh, so I took notes of course, um in the hour But the wiki itself is like, uh, a very good resource And there was one, uh, there were different groups, like I said, uh, and one was focused around, um And discourse graphs Which I think, you know, the we don't have much on here, but you know, the chemical they love is very focused on And uh, also like social media, uh, I guess, uh, on like projects, you know, that I rate and like, uh, that, you know That I would call I would I like or like massive wiki like and so on And uh, yes, so I guess I I want to share that because I thought it was like, you know, really good like And I'm missing like, you know signal Um, and there's probably gonna be a some upcoming activities related. I mentioned the finish of the link as a related group So I'm a talk to some people there, uh, apparently it's gonna be some follow-ups. So yes I will, uh, I mean invite a few folks Cool and that was part of the cs computer supported collaborative work workshop event. Uh, I think it's actually, I don't know That's what it says on the on the page you shared it says this Which is astonishing to me because I went to one cscw meeting. Oh, I don't know 1999 or something like that It was ages ago Cool, I'm glad they're still around yeah and uh Yes, this is a list of them to have this course. That's great. Um, yes, I know I thank you for the neighbors. Yes I didn't I wasn't able to do anything for the nurse of the hour, but you know There's time. So yes, I I put in my uh, checking, uh, you know what I plan to do in the next few weeks Um, and yes, I think we're gonna sing with peter on like a massive wiki and I would have hopefully next week as well So we made we will share notes. That sounds great Yeah, so yeah, that was that was the one thing because you know And then the race is like, you know, like the savers and so everything we discussed there's a lot of activity there and like a lot of people also Stepped up and like want to contribute to like moa for example Which is a cross poster, you know that sometimes doesn't break doesn't doesn't work for matthew very well now but it mostly works And uh, yeah, I mean, there's just like it's it's very nice to see Uh, that you know have really like a fraction of people that jump to the feathers want to contribute So again the 1991 A rule in action and like or like just wrote them Uh, yeah, so it was it's just very nice to see like this projected attention and people just jumping to like collaborate Yes So that's that's for me. Um, thanks once again, and I guess you've got to go and matthew We should probably send you to your better half Uh So that family so that family family can be preserved. Nice to see you See you next wednesday as john manz would have it. Excellent you guys. Thank you Um Esther, did you want to check in at all? Do you want to I'm just curious what's been hot for you or on your radar? Uh, well, uh, this discourse craft business. I've I've spent I've worked on a bit the last couple of weeks. We've been thinking about how to start a Like the the researchers who are doing it now, they already have one or two pub pubs for their research group they've been publishing research on uh, initially sort of evaluating current generation note-taking tools as a way to structure knowledge and then figuring out how to make if they can come up with a um A standard Format for um related Work for for scientific publications like how how could they convince the scientists that they know to publish to to make an explicit skeleton of the axioms and arguments and conclusions um That's just more structured than a conclusions section And make it normal for that to be its own thing with an identifier that people can point to With the idea that once you have a few thousand of those and you can start asking are these well enough a line that you can build composite graphs or meaningfully say here is the umbrella discourse graph for you know the optimal The optimal design for an aluminum camp or you know, here's the here's the umbrella of Approaches to carbon sequestration that like are cheapest within their domain and um They're reasonably ambitious given that they only have a couple hundred um They have a couple hundred like rome instances that they've been using and that's it but um They they want to expand the definition of what the thing they mean to include past examples. So anyone I think it to the extent that any of you have tackled argument mapping or discourse mapping at some point in the past or tried to explicitly cluster and declare vocabularies of axioms in some field or you know Assertions and counter and rebuttals made by a bunch of people who are all talking about the same thing I'd love to hear about it. They would love to hear about it I can probably connect you to people who are thinking about they have phc students and they're figuring out if they can articulate multi-year research projects And I think the the the intended outcome is a is a healthy one It's like the idea that one of the things you should be publishing By definition should be anchoring itself and other people's articulation of the elements of your of the thing You're doing is sort of nice and there's even some connection between the spirit of that and the spirit of this sort of hunch map of the Like the state of play of a decision tree This is this is you have the decision trees and you have the argument trees But one of the things that they all share is you have to find a way to decide when two people are talking about the same thing Right constant recurrence in In the fellowship Thank you three quick things one too bad mark on twan isn't on this call because I think this would be right up his alley Second, do you know jamie joice of society library? I don't Because I think that some of the stuff that they're doing which is more toward debate and things like that Might actually fit in what you're talking about Um And then the third is this forby company has everybody anybody else met sam shikowitz He approached me and we had a nice chat forby is a decision-making Tool that's like for communities and other sorts of things bentley. Thanks for putting the society library link in there Jamie is also a regular on the canonical debate lab Conversations that bentley is in that mark on twan is in Which might be interesting to you. I don't know But um Well, that's right, uh, but sam is sort of experimenting with uh decision-making Interfaces and runs pretty deep on this. So he might be interesting as well That's great. I will change the link that I've got attached to it in my brain now From dot org to dot.io um and and I I was going to say bedeviled, but I keep struggling with how to explain this shared thinking space Like what to call it and any riffs or ideas or insights on that are always always always welcome my yay You mean our chair thinking space. Yeah Well, I don't mean uh the conversational space or the zoom space I mean, um, how how and where we would put Notes together so that they're visible in some shared arena As opposed to uh links in a chat next to our little rectangles Um, well, you know my my proposal right now So I will say an agoran amasi wiki And and I think that's a that's a really good starting place for these experiments And that's why I want to catch up with you on the calls Uh and sort of go back to that I mean Again, if we if we can define a repository is that we want to put into this in the refungus essentially Uh, I think from we can go from that to the instance Rather quickly But you know, if not, perhaps we need to finish the thinking tools map first. I don't know We can do both in there yeah, um And thanks for mentioning the big fungus, which is my best approximation to trying to explain this phenomenon Um I would love to help publish any preprints that people have of research I think there are a lot of audiences like cscw where there would be interested readers Maybe even collaborators, but they they're a unit of communication