 The next item of business is a member's business debate on motion number 253 in the name of James Dornan on a living wage in Scottish football. This debate will be concluded without any questions being put. Would those members who wish to participate in the debate please press their request to speak buttons now? I call on James Dornan to open the debate around seven minutes, please, Mr Dornan. I'd like to start off by thanking Willie Smith and Scott Robertson, who have been fighting for fairness for our young football players for many years. Without their tenacity and determination to do the right thing, we would not be having this debate today. Scottish Football employs thousands of people across the industry. The scale of football is no longer 22 men in a pitch with a referee in the middle. Football runs on a commercial basis now. Stadiums no longer only host events in a Saturday afternoon, but at a constant venue for conferences, parties, charity events, concerts and training days. Football-long organisations employ cleaners, cooks and administrative staff, and even a humble pie takes an employed person to reach the hands of supporters. Matchday staffs can work long, taxing and physical hours, running from one end of the ground to another, yet many of those people will be on less than their living wage. Football is one of the most, if not the most, influential sports in the world. Millions of people are engaged with the sport around the globe. The 2014 world cup reached an audience of 3.2 billion people. The final alone saw 695 million watch it live, which is approximately 15 per cent of the world's population. That is some figure. This is a reach of the beautiful game. We are all aware of the benefits that sports have in health and communities. We used to be, but we now are. Football is now more than a sport that is focused on the big teams and players. It is a vital community engagement tool. The sport is breaking down barriers to bring people together. Football also provides those multiple health benefits both physically and mentally. It supports good mental health through increased confidence and sense of belonging, a sense of team spirit and as a tool to reduce stress. The physical benefits are just as impressive with recent research suggesting that football may be better for you than going for a run or lifting weights. That is good, because I was rubbish at both of those things. The physical health benefits of football can also be seen in a reduction in the risk of heart disease, a lowering of cholesterol and a weighted challenge obesity. I had the pleasure to attend the University of Glasgow's Institute of Health and Well-being in the Scottish professional lead trust event in Parliament Tuesday night, which highlighted the good work being carried out in those areas by many of Scotland's football clubs. Clear evidence that the social impact of the game is no longer just reaching men, but also older people, women and children. Given its power and its dependency and support from all members of society, but traditionally those from working class areas, football has a responsibility to ensure that it is doing the right thing by those that it employs, even if just to set a good example to others. For years, it has been understood that football has a massive impact on poverty. A recent forum, which was attended by senior figures from UNICEF, professional footballers and sporting advisers, concluded that the resounding message was that sport does indeed have the ability to affect positive change and promote international development. Of course, it should not be seen as a silver bullet to the problems of poverty and disadvantage. The power of sport to affect change is as a tool within a broader toolkit. The report found, while sport has a profound effect on community with health, education and morale, that clubs should not ignore their own responsibilities. It is here that I must congratulate Hart's football club and particularly their forward-thinking chief executive and chair Ann Burge on being the first club in the UK to be an accredited living wage employer. For a club that has had its own financial difficulties in recent years, that is a remarkable achievement, but it just highlights A, that it can be done, and B, the benefits that accrue from doing it, and what better way to impact on poverty than to pay people a living wage. I know that there are some clubs that pay their own staff the living wage but are not accredited because of contracts elsewhere. Unfortunately, not all clubs are following the example of Hart's, and the disparity could not be starker than between the two biggest Glasgow clubs. Rangers, another club with massive financial difficulties in recent season, have made huge steps to becoming accredited. The only thing stopping them are some historic contracts with outside suppliers of services. The team that I support, on the other hand, has made it quite clear that they do not support the living wage, and let me make it clear that the board of the team that I support, on the other hand, has made it clear that they do not support the living wage. Most of the fans that I spoke to certainly do. I believe that one of the reasons that they gave was that it would have a knock-on effect on other wages. If Hart's and Rangers can afford to do this, with their financial issues, I can see no reason why the biggest and richest club in Scotland are unable to do so. Many of us grew up with tales of how Celtic started to help those who needed assistance. Maybe the board should get to know their history and reconsider their position. I am aware that thousands of Celtic fans would agree with me on this matter, if not always on other things. I am also aware that Unite, the Union Youth Committee, wrote to Celtic just today to ask him a number of questions about their use of zero-hours contracts, as well as their commitment or lack of to the living wage, and he will look forward to seeing his response. The Scottish Football Association staff have paid over a minimum wage at roughly £10 per hour across the board, and that too has strived towards positive change. Indeed, after speaking to representatives across players unions, it is now recognised that some young players are being paid less than even the minimum wage. I spoke earlier about what Willie and Scott had been doing to protect young players, and there are a number of issues around the length of journeys that young boys have to make, very often to get 15 minutes of game time if they are lucky. However, maybe even worse than that is that there have been reports of top-flight clubs paying young players on contracts of £1 a week. Of course, it is any young boys' dream to play football, but that dream should not be manipulated by clubs to allow a failure to meet legal and moral commitments. Clubs are also involved in the modern apprenticeship programme that the Scottish Government defines an apprenticeship as a tool to provide an opportunity to earn a wage, while learning skills and achieving an industry-recognised qualification—in other words, tools for life. That is employability, sustainability and a means to live. I speak to the Scottish PFA, and it is concerned that some young men are not being paid the amount that they are due at apprenticeship level. However, more than that, when they do not make a career from the game, most of them will not. They are often left without a skillset, and tragically, that has led on occasions to eventually suffering with acute mental health issues. Derby, there was a report of one young lad who took his own life after being released from his club. I am not saying for a second that clubs can be nuts maids, but they have a duty of care to these young kids and they must fulfil it. I would suggest that one of the ways that they do that is by educating and making sure that they are ready for the outside world when they leave the game. There is no denying that football reaches into the lives of people across Scotland or where most other things can't, including politics. It is my firm belief that, while this Parliament aims to increase the number of accredited living wage employers, organisations that already have a huge impact on Scottish life should be leading the way. That is why I encourage this Parliament and I urge all football clubs to set that good example, do the right thing and pay the living wage. I call Douglas Ross to be followed by Richard Leonard. Around four minutes please, Mr Ross. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I start by referring members to my declaration of members' interests as I am a football referee with the Scottish Football Association. I was selected to speak in this debate by my chief whip at the beginning of the week before my appointment for Saturday came out, so I won't enter into some of the conversations that Mr Dornan had about the two biggest teams in Glasgow because of my role that I will be taking there at 12 o'clock on Saturday afternoon. I did agree with an awful lot of what Mr Dornan had to say in his remarks, particularly the earlier points in his remarks. I was interested to hear that involvement in football can be better for you than running or lifting weights. With my own involvement in football, I have got to run lift weights just to be involved in football, so sometimes you can combine all three. I understand and I realise that members' business is normally a consensual area that we can discuss, but I would like to make one point, because while much of what Mr Dornan said today in his speech had a great deal of substance that I can agree with, what I couldn't agree with was comments that he made over the summer, indeed just last month, when he made a similar call that he is making today for the Scottish professional football league to pay the living wage, when he also said that Scottish athletics should pay the living wage. He put out a press release. Two days later, he wrote to Scottish athletics only to find out that they actually pay the living wage. I know a number of people within Scottish athletics that were disappointed that he hadn't gone to them first to seek their clarification. Indeed, he tarnished their name with some because of the comments that he put out in the press that were factually inaccurate. I will give way to Mr Dornan on that point. The letter was sent to Scottish athletics before the press release was sent out. I accept you may well not have received it. However, the issue was that they were not an accredited living wage employer. They accepted that after discussions that that was something that they should be doing so that they could set the example for other people, and I believe that that will be the outcome of it. That was not about attacking Scottish athletics. What we did was that we highlighted a lot of good work that they had done, and I think that that has allowed them to highlight that even more. I will give you some extra time, Mr Ross, for your courtesy. Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. They may not have been accredited as living wage employers. They were living wage employers, however, and I think that that point was lost in translation with some. I think that it is important to get that clarification on the record here today. As I said, I won't be getting too involved in the club aspects, but I would put on record the good work done by hearths of Midlothian since October 2014, when they became living wage employers and accredited to that. Indeed, we can be encouraging clubs and all employers. It is a target of this Government and this Parliament that we increased the number of living wage employers throughout Scotland, and indeed the United Kingdom. However, I have some sympathy for the Scottish professional football league. They feel that they are being victimised in this area. They are the only operation that is being asked to give this unanimous approval. Why are they being singled out? I will quote from Neil Donkaster, the SPFL chief executive, when he said, why is football the target of focus here and not any other individual sector? Our clubs and their staff carry out huge amounts of positive work in their communities and through charitable initiatives of which the SPFL is very proud. We feel that those activities are richly deserving of attention and focus, and I agree with them. We have to be very careful that we do not victimise and we do not pillarise the Scottish professional football league when work can be done and we can encourage, and I think that there is cross-party consensus that we can encourage people to move forward in that way. However, we should not single out, as you said, a great sport that is enjoyed by so many in this country for some of the criticism and some of the demands that we have here today when we are not willing to do it for every other sector around the country. In my remaining time, I am grateful to Mr Donan for taking this forward. I know that he has written to a number of clubs. I believe that there is a will to move forward with this. Every club in Scotland, I understand, pays the minimum wage and some are moving towards the living wage. We would like everyone across Scotland to be able to provide the wages to ensure that their staff can live comfortably but to also do the work that they enjoy. However, there is work to be done. There is more that we can do. I am pleased to take part in this debate today, but I am slightly concerned that some of the comments could be seen as attacking one sector when we do not look at the breadth of issues that we have got to face in Scottish society. Richard Leonard, to be followed by Ruth Maguire. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I thank James Donan as well for bringing this important matter to the floor of this Parliament. For my part, I wish to associate myself with all of his comments in his opening speech. Can I also take this opportunity to pay tribute to the magnificent work of the Poverty Alliance in both campaigning for a living wage and for all the hard work that they do in promoting the living wage and in diligently accrediting private businesses, public bodies and third sector organisations that apply to become living wage employers in Scotland? In recent days, I have asked the Minister for Employability and Training in Committee and the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Jobs and Fair Work in this chamber if they would consider whether a target of just 1,000 accredited living wage employers in Scotland by this time next year was ambitious enough. Let me make the point that this is not a council of despair. Far from it, it is a rallying cry of hope. With over 360,000 private enterprises in Scotland alone, I think that 1,000 employees is far too timid a target. I make this argument not in order to stretch the targets required of the Poverty Alliance with their existing resources. I make it gently in order to set more ambitious targets of the Poverty Alliance but with substantially increased resources. Jamie Hepburn Of course, in commenting on the resource that the Poverty Alliance, as I am sure he would want to reflect on the fact that the Scottish Government provides resource to the Poverty Alliance to help to promote the living wage, he is right to remark that this is a mark that he has raised on two occasions, well three occasions now this week, but hopefully he would reflect given where we started off. This is a fairly early process. I think that setting a target of 1,000 credit employers in such a short space time is surely a best target. Of course, it is one that we can hopefully exceed. Richard Leonard Yes, as I said at the committee, I think that our definitions of ambitious probably are variance. Let me make it clear too though that in the broader sense, this question before us is not simply about the individual standard of living of these working people employed by Scotland's top football clubs. It is not even simply about their individual standard of wellbeing. It is, at its very root, about the kind of society we want to live in. It is not just a material question, it is an ethical question too. In our top football clubs, especially, the lowest paid workers not only endure the lowest hourly rate of pay but, because they are, for the most part, on part-time hours, they have the lowest weekly rate of pay, too, and because they are often seasonal workers, they have the lowest annual wage as well. That reminds me of something that Tom Mann, the socialist pioneer and trade union agitator, said in response to the moralising of Thomas Carlyle to the working class. Tom Mann said to Carlyle, he said that the corollary of the biblical commandment, thou shalt not steal, is thou shalt not be stolen from, and these workers in our top football clubs are being stolen from. This is not just an injustice, it is daylight and sometimes floodlight robbery, and we need to bring it to an end. To those clubs and their supporters, this is not just about in-work poverty, it is about in-retirement poverty too, because large inequality in wages at work amplify into massive inequalities in household resources in retirement too. Finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, it is worth recalling that when Jimmy Macston, John Wheatley, Jenny Lee and the independent Labour Party first championed the living wage in the 1920s, it sprang first and foremost from the harsh daily realities of working class experience. However, it also had a theoretical underpinning based on the economist J.A. Hobson's analysis that economic depression and mass unemployment were themselves a direct result of inequality, under consumption and abject poverty on the one hand, with conspicuous consumption and wealth enough to export capital on the other. I do not begrudge our top footballers for high rewards in their often short playing careers, but if ever there was a case of conspicuous consumption in the midst of abject poverty, it is at our top football clubs. So let's support this motion this afternoon and join together with the trade unions, supporters groups and the poverty alliance itself to step up the pressure on all our football clubs to pay the living wage in the season ahead. Ruth Maguire to be followed by John Finnie. I congratulate my colleague James Dornan for securing this debate on the living wage in Scottish football. The social case for the living wage is clear. It's simply unacceptable that working people find themselves in a situation where they have to turn to food banks or unsustainable debt just to get by. Ensuring that everyone has a decent income for the work that they do and can access the goods and services that most of us would deem necessary to live on and participate in society is something that I'm sure everyone in the chamber can get behind and support. I perhaps should have started by putting on record that my interest in this debate is not only around the very important fair work agenda but also as a heart of Midlothian season ticket holder and foundation of hearts member. Hearts were indeed the first club in Scotland and in the UK to introduce the living wage. As a fan, I'm proud of how my club has conducted itself in this matter and the investment that they've made in their staff and also in working with the foundation of hearts to make fan ownership a reality. I'm grateful to James for acknowledging their good work in his speech and to other members, even if the original motion didn't quite capture it. Within a football club, many of the staff that will benefit from the living wage will be involved in match day hospitality. In North Ayrshire, where my own constituency is, around 3,500 people are employed in hospitality. It's an industry where, unfortunately, there are still far too many people struggling with low pay and a lack of regular hours. During my time as a North Ayrshire councillor, I chaired an inquiry into non-standard lending and heard evidence from individuals employed in hospitality of just how tough it was surviving week to week on a minimum wage with no set hours. The social case for fair work and the living wage is well rehearsed. However, there is also an important business case to be made. Independently conducted research on employers who have introduced the living wage have shown increases in productivity as a result of living wage employees contributing a higher level of effort and an openness to changing job roles within the organisation. That brings businesses' cost-saving opportunities from increasing staff retention and reducing sickness absence. The value of improved levels of morale, motivation and commitment from staff right across the paid distribution can have a hugely positive effect on the success of a business. One other thing that I would like to mention today is that, as more and more people choose to consume fair trade products and look to spend their hard-earned cash with ethical businesses, it can also provide a real competitive edge. Hartz showed real leadership and chair and budge is quoted as saying that they were simply doing the right thing. They sent a very clear signal to other clubs, to the club's employees, customers and the supply chain. Ambitions for growth are not incompatible with acting to create a fairer society. The action that Hartz have taken benefits not just the club and the immediate community, but wider society. I commend Anne Budge and Hartz on doing the right thing and urge others to follow suit. Can I have Mr John Finnie, please, in the last of the open debates? I congratulate James Dornan on his motion. Like the previous speaker, Ruth Maguire declared that I am a heart of anoddian season to hold her a member of the foundation of Hartz and, occasionally, sit beside her when we both get to the game. I am also a living wage—accredited living wage employer, as I know a number of my colleagues are. I think that there is an important role and it is to pick up the point that my colleague Douglas Ross made. There is a promotional role for all of us connected with that and certainly my wish to promote it is not exclusively with football or any other. I think that there is an obligation for us to promote it everywhere possible because it is a damning indictment in all of us that there are levels of inequality that exist in this very rich society. We know that in-work poverty is a significant part of that. My party talks a lot about pay-ra-issues and there is an example that has been alluded to by previous speakers—the disparity between the incomes of people within the same, effectively the same organisation. We know that that inequality at the time that the decision was taken by Hartz was that top 10 per cent had 15 per cent more wealth than the bottom 40 per cent combined. That is a damning indictment and it was an increase from the previous year. The world's fullest statistics at the bottom line of all of us there quite often relate to individuals. The press release that accompanied Hartz's announcement had the Peter Kelly director of the poverty alliance talking about it being an important step in the campaign to end poverty pay. At that time, almost two in three children in Scotland lived in a household in poverty and lived in a household where someone worked. The living wage was a vital tool in lifting people out of poverty. Importantly, Mr Kelly said, football clubs had an important role in their communities across Scotland, and that has been alluded to by their very important part. Another declaration that I would like to make is that I am a member of Oxfam and I had the privilege of being at a meeting last night in the Parliament where Oxfam released their decent work for Scotland's low-paid workers a job to be done report. That was work commissioned by Oxfam involving the University of the West of Scotland and the Warwick Institute for Employment Research. The cabinet secretary, Mr Brown, attended last night and was very well received for the positive response that he gave to this report. I know that there are a number of recommendations made to not only the Scottish Government but also employees. Significantly, the project that included street sampling included surveys and some other method that escapes me at the moment. It involved 1,500 people across Scotland. There are various tables published about what the priority was, and it will not surprise anyone that the priorities for decent work identified by focus group participants was a decent hourly rate. It goes on to say that an hourly rate or salary is enough to cover basic needs such as food, housing and things that most people take for granted without going into debt. Oxfam has been involved in a lot of creative work, particularly around the human kind index. That research has shown that people's aspirations are fairly modest. People just want enough. In an industry such as football, where there are obscene money changing, I do not think that there is too much to ask. I got a pie at the last game that I was at, and I was delighted—some people might think me more than one pie—that the young woman who served me said, and enjoyed the game after. I enjoyed the fact that that person was popular and remunerated. As has been alluded to, it is good for business, too. Indeed, the Living Wage Foundation quoted in their literature someone who says, introducing the Living Wage is not only the right thing to do for our co-workers, it also makes good business sense. That is a long-term investment in our people based on values and our belief that a team with a good compensation and working conditions is in a position to provide a great experience to our customers. I am not promoting any of that. That is a large Scandinavian furniture company. I want people to do things because they are the right thing to do and because they make sense. I like that, in the press release that Martin Melodyan said, he said, that the club feels that implementing the living wage is entirely in keeping with the values that we hold dear, as Edinburgh's oldest football club. That is a sense of community and a sense of social justice. I commend the motion and thank James Dornan for bringing the matter to Parliament. I thank James Dornan for bringing forward the debate. I thank those other members who have made a contribution as well. I think that the first comment that I wanted to pick up on was Mr Finney's remarks. I think that he is quite right to make the point that many of us within the Parliament are signed up as living wage champions. I am happy to say that I am one such member of the Scottish Parliament, and I would very much encourage if we are not already all accredited to be such that others should follow. I also pick up on Douglas Ross's contribution just to reflect—in fact, I thought that his performance today was much better than when I saw him running the line at Farthill Park during the recess in the Partick Thistle hearts fixture. He called far too many Partick Thistle players offside for my liking. In that regard, I should also like to not be involved in the same fashion—not at all—in the fixture that Mr Ross will be officiating. Utterly, I disagree with his remarks that that fixture will be involving Glasgow's two biggest football clubs. That is an opportunity to highlight not only the cultural and economic contribution that is made by Scottish football, but also the distinctive approach to fair work that the Scottish Government has adopted, which includes the living wages. The living wages of critical importance to us as an administration. Through our pay policy, we ensure that everyone who works for us is paid at least the living wage. We provide funding, as I mentioned to Mr Leonard, that we provide funding to the poverty allowance to promote the living wage. Most recently, we have ensured that we are leveraging an additional resource to integration authorities to ensure that those working in the social care sector can be paid at the living wage. The labour market strategy that we published last month says that we want Scotland to be a more successful and fairer country with a strong economy and a vibrant fair and inclusive labour market. A strong focus for this Government is on creating more jobs, better quality jobs and jobs for everyone in terms of skills, pay, security and prospects because we know that people feel valued, empowered, drive innovation and growth. I will return to that later. That is why we believe that the living wage is so important. That is why paying the living wage is one of the core requirements of the Scottish business pledge that the Scottish Government has established. As well as being a living wage accredited employer, we should also reflect that hearts are a signatory to that Scottish business pledge. Indeed, Tynecastle stadium was where the First Minister launched that pledge. As Douglas Ross said, football clubs across Scotland play an important role in the communities in which they have routes supporting a range of social and educational programmes in my previous role as a health minister, and that being a previous role, it means that I do not need to labour the point that Mr Finnie should be eating rather less pies when he goes to the football. That is not my concern anymore, but having been the minister with responsibility. There is no need to be quite so personal, minister. That would have just been a general message applicable to all members of the Scottish Parliament, I should say, not just necessarily Mr Finnie alone himself, but thank you for highlighting that. Having been the minister for sport previously, I saw much of the good work that was done through the football clubs and their arm's length trusts. In that regard, I should also declare my own interests as a member of the Jags Trust. Indeed, just recently, I was able to see that in my own area when I met with the Clyde Football Club community foundation and also through the work that Cymru Colts Football Club do. Indeed, in my own specific area of responsibility, we know that many football clubs, Aloe Athletic, Wraith Rovers, Celtic and Rangers, the Green Martin community trust and Falkirk Football Community Foundation are engaged in the provision of employability support programmes. Indeed, Cymru and Wraith Rovers are now in the top two providers for employability programmes in the Inverclyde area delivering programmes that see, on average, 59 per cent of participants moving into work. There is a lot of good work happening there, but football social responsibility needn't stop there, as the debate is highlighted. They can play their part in tackling in work poverty. Those are clubs that I have referred to that are leaders in their own communities. They can show leadership in terms of pay, as well as hearts are to be applauded for becoming an accredited living wage employer, recognising the many benefits that that can bring. In fact, there are only four football clubs across the entire United Kingdom that are accredited living wage employers. Hearts being the only Scottish one, Chelsea, and, interestingly, FC United of Manchester, which is a semi-professional football team, is an accredited living wage employer. That clearly shows that there is significant space for growth in the number of football clubs here in Scotland and beyond that could be accredited. There will be other football clubs across Scotland that are paying the living wage. I would urge them to join hearts in being accredited. It is clearly positive for them to be visible and recognised. If they are paying the living wage, they should try to get that recognition. I will not comment in detail on the exchange between Mr Ross and Mr Dornan regarding Scottish athletics, but I think that one clear benefit of accreditation—I think that this was the point that Mr Dornan was alluding to—is that it puts beyond doubt whether or not that particular organisation is, in fact, paying the living wage. Of course, there is some self-interest for us in administration and enlightened self-interest, Presiding Officer. More football clubs take part in being accredited and will assist us with hitting. What I do believe is an ambitious target to see an increase in the number of accredited living wage employers to 1,000. The reason that I think that it is ambitious is that we started off at a starting point of having no accredited living wage employers not so long ago, so I think that it is a reasonable and ambitious target. Of course, if we can go further, we would be delighted to. We have made progress in Scotland with the living wage. We now have the highest proportion of employees paid the living wage or more across the countries of the United Kingdom, but we want to go further. I believe that football can play a significant role in that. We know that paying the living wage is important not only for those who would be in receipt of such, but I think that Ruth Maguire is quite right to make the point that supporting greater equality in our economy and economic growth are not mutually incompatible. Indeed, as our recent labour market strategy highlighted, it supports one another. More equal societies are more productive societies, and that is why we will continue to take every effort to promote the living wage in football and beyond.