 We are alive. Welcome back to another Shakespeare chat. This time we are talking about The Merchant of Venice and Sherlock is my name. Actually got the books out, maximum effort. So I think, well, I mean, would you like to introduce yourself? I feel like I haven't asked you to do that since the first time. If you'd like to introduce yourself and give us the reasons why you are more qualified than I to talk about this. My name is Heather, Heather Wicks, and I have a PhD in Shakespearean studies. So I have done a lot with Shakespeare and his contemporaries and all of the literature of that time period. As we were talking about Merchant of Venice was one that I never really studied in depth just because I was always attracted to it. I was surprised when you messaged me about it. I was like, duh, because I actually like I watched it a lot. And I remember watching the movie a while ago and I think it's because it is one of those like uncomfortable plays where, you know, the anti-Semitism is deep and complicated in that play. And I just, I think I just shied away from it. But reading Sherlock is my name and I'm watching the movie last night. It really did. I was like, oh, I wonder why I didn't want to do this. I think it was just youth, the following of youth and interest in other things. It was just so much stuff. I couldn't say anything about every single play I had to choose. It's not any more uncomfortable, I don't think, than Othello. Right, no, not even so, either. And I was really- They're both uncomfortable. And as I was reading it, as I was reading or listening to Sherlock as my name, I was thinking about the similarities between Othello and Sherlock and the ways that both of their characters are kind of pressured by these outside prejudices and how the play seems to be aware of it. And I think in Shakespearean studies, people are always very careful not to be anachronistic. They don't want to say like too hard that Shakespeare's, you know, critiquing- Super woke. Yeah, super. I mean, I always say, I mean, Shakespeare is like fairly woke for his time. I mean, given how bigoted the times were, just without anyone even thinking of that as bigotry, I feel like with that said, that's not to say that there isn't any racism or sexism or anything like that present in his works because it absolutely is, but by even today's standards, he is far more open-minded and far more positive towards all of these generally negatively viewed subcategories of like humanity than a lot of present day people. So like, the fact that Shakespeare could think open-mindedly about these things, I mean, as open-mindedly as he did, is like, what's your problem today? Like he was living in a time where this was like normal to be super racist and he like wasn't as racist as the times. Right. And like, it's really hard to talk about racist and racism because back then they didn't really like have something, like they didn't like think of it in terms of like race, like a fellow. Yeah. It's very, you know, it's like a little bit more, like the way that we conceptualize racism now was invented in the 18th century. Yeah. And like, and it was very much, you know. Well, it's also, I mean, it's not dissimilar to the fact that like, if you, not even that long ago, people didn't think of children as human beings. And so like the, when you like think of it in that metric, like, you know, they just, it's not even like they were, you can't be racist if you have no concept of race, in that sense. Like you can be like hateful against people and you can be biased against people. But the like, the structure of racism as like the form of thinking didn't exist. And like Shylock gets one of the best speeches, like in all of Shakespeare. And I think that would have been, like that speech in and of itself. It is one of the most anti-racist speeches that there is. You prick us, do we not bleed? And at the end of that, he's like, you want revenge. Why can't I want revenge? And it's very much the play is setting up this idea that the only reason he doesn't get away with it is because he's not in the privileged position of being Christian. And that seems to be, by the time you get to the end of the play, it seems to be this like absurd distinction, which is what the Hogarth does. It's like show the absurdity of these distinctions that we like make up in society to separate. Merchant of Venice is almost systemic and structural racism in action. Yes, exactly. And it's the way that, you know, and I, and there was a line that I was comparing from Shylock as my name, where he says, I will become what you make me. Like, and it's the same kind of idea of like, that do you prick us, if you prick us, you would not bleed speech. This idea of like, if you're going to make me into the bad guy, then I am just going to- Well, and also similar to the, when you said, do we not, like you want revenge, I would and I too, and he said, and we will better the instruction that like, we watch from your example as we should, right? Like you're the model that we're supposed to model ourselves after. So that's what I learned from you. And I'm going to do you one better. Right, exactly. And then I love how, and at the end of Shylock as my name, how like the reason I really loved the ending of this book more than any of the other Hogarths, because it does what I wanted the Hogarths to do, which is fix the problem of the play. And at the end of the Hogarths- Spoilers. Yeah. Jump right to the end. But I just, I love it because I feel like it's this perfectly cyclical idea, right? Where Shylock is the one that gets the mercy speech that Portia gives and the original. And it makes so much more sense coming from Shylock because it's like, if you think about who we're supposed to give mercy to, we're supposed to give mercy. If we think, it's like kind of thinking about punching down or punching up, right? Like we're supposed to be giving mercy to the people who are lower than us in like the scale of privilege. And so for Shylock to announce that and kind of put Portia in her place, it feels like that the book fixes the problem of the play. Even though it's like- At the same time, like, I mean, I know, I mean, I don't, I don't know, like saying the problem of the play, like I don't disagree that like, it's a more satisfying ending for the book, Shylock is my name for that reason. But I do think that the unsatisfyingness of the play's ending is a feature and not a bug. Like you're meant to be uncomfortable with how this ends. Right. Which is why I'm always like, how is this a comedy? Like when it ends, like I feel like at the end of Merchant of Venice, and even though I watched it a bunch, I mean, I watched Othello a lot too. So I'm just a masochist. But Merchant of Venice, I feel like at the end you feel, I mean, Othello makes you feel kind of wrung out emotionally, but Merchant of Venice makes me feel very hollow and very empty. Yeah. Yeah. Like, and I think you're right too. Like Portia, she could have stopped, like when she does her whole like- Yeah. And she kind of like finds the loophole and it's like, and then she could have just let everybody apart and- Stopped. But like she, but there is this kind of sense and when I was watching her movie last night, that she gets pleasure from taking it one step further, which is like kind of that, you know, like that, like creeping into some autism of the play. And I think- Which like then it was weird like that moment for her to go. I mean, just in general her position in the play there is like very feminist that this is her opportunity because she's been denied agency in her life entirely. So like to be able to step into a man's shoes and to be able to use her mind and to be the actual like the smartest person in the room. But then like you can see where like she's like runs away with that. She's like drunk on the power of like how smart she is. And she finally gets to like stretch those wings. And she's like, you know what? I can go even one further. And like, because she is smart and like she is, I feel like there is some pent up rage also that she might be freaking me out. Like she's kind of pissed at Bassanio. And so like, I feel like she's like kind of taking it out just on this situation. Well, and that's how everybody is, right? Like everybody's angry at somebody else. Like Shylock is more mad at his like his daughter and like the society that took her away. But he can only really enact revenge on Antonio. So like Antonio becomes like the stand-in. And so it's just like society is filled with rage because of all of these strict things that we put on people. And so the ending just kind of forces us to look at all that and then doesn't resolve it because nobody really gets the happy ending that you really want, especially with the whole ring thing that Portia does at the end with, you know, making Bassanio give up the ring and then kind of tricking him about it. And like just kind of proving that nobody keeps their word and that like bonds are like bonds just are broken. Like, and whatever they are, like either legal bonds or familial bonds. Well, and then the bond is also like emblematic of that. Right, exactly. So it's like this idea that there's no bond that can exist in society that does this to people that makes it so that we're all kind of happy. I mean, like, I mean, you would imagine that like, you know, people are only as good as their word, right? And you can break your word, but you can't break a contract except that even a contract is not like, that too can be broken by systemic racism and by privilege and by money and cleverness and et cetera. So like even the bond, like, like not just like your word is bond, but the bond that Shaila keeps saying, I will have my bond. Oh, turns out you won't. Yeah, and like you get that too in the game that the men have to play to win like Portia's affection. She's trying to like find a way to even break that bond to her father and all that kind of stuff. A loophole. I mean, she's been looking for a loophole for that this whole time that she's like, well, I couldn't find one there, but I'm gonna find a loophole for Antonio. Yeah, and so you just like all over you see these kind of loopholes to get out of these bonds. And then I think that the Hogarth then kind of asks, what do we owe each other? Like, what do we owe our fathers? What do we owe our daughters? What do we owe our friends? Well, also like by retelling it but also having it be more in conversation with it and putting it in the modern day, it also asks more questions about what is it, what do you owe not just like your actual father but your forefathers like the, you know, like the Hebrew tradition and like there's that whole like conversation about like, you know, why do I have to do this? Like you're just supposed to, that like this is what you owe. Like you're supposed to do these things in order to do these things. And that is the point of doing them. The point of doing them is to do them because our forefathers did it. That is what it means to be Jewish. Like, you're like, butch for why? Yeah, and you get that in the relationship between Shylock and Storlovich, who is just like made, he's like, he becomes the Shylock in the book. And I think it's supposed to be like the cyclical thing, like what happened to Shylock is gonna happen to another Jew, will happen to another Jew just because of the way that antisemitism infects our society, that it's like always going to happen, right? There's this kind of inevitability and what happens to Storlovich. And like- They kind of just like quickly enjoy the fact that these other play retellings that like, or they'll mention, you know, Shakespeare, but like, how are you not noticing your life weirdly mirroring this play? And then like in this one, Shylock's literally hanging out. So like, it like erases that problem because you're like, no, we know it's mirroring that. Like Shylock's literally hanging out in here to tell you that this is the same thing again. Yeah. Yeah. And we get so much more of like Shylock's perspective as he philosophizes what has happened in his past because just for anybody who didn't read Shylock as my name, basically it seems to be happening like after what happened between Shylock and Antonio. So he's like already lost- Considerably after. Yeah. So he's like lost his daughter and he's like lost his fortune and stuff like that. And so he's just kind of like a shell of himself. And so he's philosophizes throughout the entire book like, what do we owe our forefathers and our daughters and like what is the point of revenge and all that kind of stuff. And so I guess like the plot then comes up in his, and like what happens with his friend? But I have to say I agree with Urza that like he's the most unlikable character in the entire play in my opinion. Bassanio for like, I mean, I know he says I can't let you do this. But then when he's like, no, no, I'm gonna do this. He's like, okay. Yeah. I mean, the fact that he like comes begging in the first place and like, okay, can we just talk about how he's like, I know I've been in debt, but you know, I figured out a surefire way to clear my debt. I'm gonna go on this like quest to get this princess by answering these questions three. And you're like, oh, that sounds like a surefire like way to like cancel your debts. Like, I can't believe Antonio listened to that and was like, yep, sounds solid to me. Like that's not sinking 3000 ducats down the drain because that's absolutely not guaranteed to pay off. Right. And like it is so, it's so much more ridiculous in the play than like I remember it being like he just shows up and she's like, yeah, he's hot. Like finally I have one that looks normal on a boat. I think like didn't, they hadn't met before, I think. Yeah, yeah. Like they allude to the fact that they had a history. Yeah, not like much of one. It's not like they know each other well, but like they had like spotted each other before. So she's like, oh, that's that one guy. Yeah. He's, you know, so far the least worst. So that one. My favorite part of the play, and I remember this being my favorite part of the play when I read it like back in grad school too or undergrad whenever it was that I read it, is when they like make fun of the English, like the Englishmen who are like in Portia's like little harem, you know, she has like a Frenchman and an Englishman and the African prince or whatever. And I just love how like in the play the Englishman is like so ridiculous because I forget that like they're all supposed to be, you know, Italian or Venetian. So it was, I just, I always love how he like makes fun of the English in his plays in that pink place. This is basically what Bassanio is saying to Antonio. Okay. For sure. Just give me the 3000 and I can, I have a feeling in my fingertips that at the poker table, I'm actually gonna triple my money. Well, I think that's why like so many, like like so many modern adaptions like just make Antonio in love with Bassanio because it's like the only way that they can kind of explain why else would he do this in the first place? Like he's just a sad man in love. I mean, I feel like there's, you know, there's also like a spectrum that like, I think people leap too quickly. I mean, I thought a lot about this when I read the book Ace earlier this year because it obviously talks about like the asexual identity but it also just kind of generally talks about how we don't have enough words for the various kinds of love. And there's like a spectrum of like entirely platonic to like entirely only sexual and lots of stops along the way. And I feel like it's like to just be like, well, either you're friends or he's gay and in love with him. I feel like there's a lot of steps in between where like there's, you know, perhaps this is the young hot guy that he always wished he was and he kind of admires him but in a way that isn't jealous in a way that instead is like, I want to be like you, I always wanted to be like you, I want you to like me and like not in a sexual way is also an option. It could be sexual, I'm not saying it can't be but I just feel like always just jumping to like he's sexually attracted to this person. Like there's other kinds of like obsessive or like more so than friends love that could, I always kind of get the feeling that like, I mean, maybe it's a, maybe it's own homosexual attraction but it can easily be just like, he's just kind of like unreasonably enamored with this young man who's like, perhaps quite charming and charismatic and he's kind of always like, you're cooler than me. Like I always wanted to be like you. Well, and I think though that Shakespeare also has like love between friends, like holy platonic but in love with each other without like the sexual charge. Like, I mean, I feel like often, I mean, not just Shakespeare I feel like a lot of stories do a better job of representing that between females where like they aren't like lesbians but they like love each other and would die for each other. And with men it's always like either it's like bros or it's like homosexuality, like sexually attracted to each other instead of like, you know, I would die for you, my brother, my friend, like, but it's not like sexual. Yeah, I mean, and we see that basically like Romeo and Juliet is all about that. Like J.T. and Church. Yes, exactly like that. Yeah, exactly how they're physically affectionate with each other and they would do anything for each other. And it's like, there is that question is like, whether like, do you owe more to your wife than you owe to your friend who you love and you love differently but equally? Like I think that Shakespeare is talking about these kinds of bonds that we have between people that are strong but like society only values certain kinds of relationships more than the other which is what Portia gets mad about because she wants to be, you know, first and he was like, I would give up Portia if it meant to save your life. But I mean, at the same time, I just feel like I feel like that moment is like, there is no right answer to what just happened there because like from Portia's perspective, like her entire life, her fortune, her house, everything that she is and possesses just gets handed over to some guy who guesses right in this box game. So she's like, okay, well then you better than value me above all else because like I in my entirety now belong to you. And so you better prize me above everything else. And so like from her perspective, like I get where she's coming from she's like, oh, I don't get to like anything or do anything or choose anything. So I am your prize to be won and I better be number one. So like it's, if it was equal footing, if they had just met and fallen in love and gotten married, like there is some betrayal in that but the fact that she never had a choice in this and that he's like, so, you know, you're my everything of course the moment that he wins but then she's like, am I though? Yeah, yeah, or am I convenient? You're conveniently get out of debt free. Yeah, well, am I just your jackpot? And I think it's interesting that he's always willing to throw somebody else's life away, you know, for his own happiness. He's the worst, he's the villain of the story. Yeah, yeah. Oh, loving a, I'll die for you, my brother. You like that? Yeah, I mean, I think it's like those kinds of art. I think like making Antonio like gay is an anachronistic reading because I do think back then it, there was more space for men to, to say those things. Like that. Well, I mean, I feel like it was almost assumed that like men would love each other more than women because women aren't even humans. So like, yeah, like you love your wife and she makes your babies, but she's not a real person and equal to you the way that like your buddy is. And I feel like, I mean, there's also, you know, like the men that like you would choose to be your second in a duel that would like, in essence die for you in your place. Like there's just a lot more stuff like that around for like, you have to have your number one best bud. And again, I think it goes back to like our modern desire to like define things. Again, they didn't like have the word homosexual back then. And there were like friendship bonds that also had like physical relations as well. But again, it wasn't seen as like an either or. Well, they didn't like, since that wasn't an option, no one was like, does this mean I'm gay because like gayness wasn't a thing. So they're like, well, we're just doing this because we're friends and we love each other. And why wouldn't we? And so I think it's like important to remember that like, so like, yes, Antonio was probably in love with Bassanio, but I think that that is much more complicated than like the kind of, you know, this plus this equals this that like we give to those kinds of relations. Well, then there's also the question of, does Bassanio feel that way back? And that's why he doesn't actually care that much about Portia or is he, you know, using Bassanio or using Antonio and he's like, I know you feel that way about me. So can I get some money? Or is he using everybody? I mean, I kind of just feels, and I think that that's kind of also too, like in this play, like who is actually loyal to him in this play? And. Shakespeare was pre-toxic with me. Free love. They're all hippies. Yeah. I mean, he was, yeah, I think he probably loved whatever, breathed with men. So I think Shakespeare- My very, you know, Lord Byron in his, it's like everybody. It makes me feel like Shakespeare got around. If there's sonnets or anything to go by, which I think a lot of people do think it is something to go by. Shakespeare was probably very liberal. And sexual. Yes, yes. So which I, again, I like about like the stage beauty movie that we talked about a while ago. It plays with that spectrum a lot more. Like this idea- Well, I mean, yeah, because there's the added fact that everyone on stage was a dude. So like, if he was kissing, if Bassanio and Antonio kissed, it wasn't actually different from Bassanio and Portia kissing. They're all dudes. Yeah. But then again, yeah. And but then it's like they read his female, it's like, I just think it's much more complicated. It's almost like we think about it too hard and don't get me wrong. Like I get like- I think another way to think about it too hard is just that we're too determined to box it and label it. And you're like, everything is always just more gray than that. And then like, then it's like, instead of saying that it's just fluid, then you're like, no, we have more boxes in between. And you're like, no, they can't all fit into little boxes in between. Like sometimes there isn't a name for it. Sometimes it's just fluidly in the middle. And I get why those names exist. Like it is definitely a reaction to people feeling like they don't have the right to exist that way. And having the language to be able to explain like what the feeling is, what the relationship is. Cause I mean, then by that same token, like again, the book ACE that I read is the how. So if we define like romantic love as sexual love, then that must mean that asexual people do not experience love. That isn't true. And so because our words, because we, you know, to us love is synonymous with sex, then like, then we need more words. Yeah. That simply isn't the human experience. Right. And so you do, so it's like you have this fight between like, you know, wanting everything to be fluid, but also, yeah, but then also wanting to name it. And I think, but you do, you know, there is like the whole idea of homosexuality was like the love that dare not speak its name, like during the 18th century. And that was kind of, and so it's like putting, like creating these boxes is a way to speak that love that people couldn't do, you know? So it's like, these are all like reactions, but I do think when reading Shakespeare, we have to remember that there is like a more fluid relationship between things. And I think that that's what this play is really about, like these bonds, the different kinds of bonds that we owe each other, plus the literal bonds. Well, so funnily enough, we've like barely at all talked about Shylock and like the retelling is Shylock is my name. It's not about Antonio and Bassanio. So like, I mean, to like forcibly switch gears. Right. What about Shylock? Why I think this is one of the better whole guards is because it really did make me think, like just simply the writing itself, like I think is the best. Like forget if it's successful as a retelling, I just enjoyed the writing style of this, the best. But anyway, go back to what you were saying I think it was the most well-written and the most philosophically interesting, like as a plot, if you're looking for like a plot based story, like this is not plot or like, and I, you know, not a lot even happens, but it is a- It's not really even so much a retelling of Merchant of Venice as it is a conversation with Merchant of Venice. Right. And it makes it more interesting. And there's just like a lot of, like there's just a lot of interesting philosophical conversations going on. Like the majority of the book is like a conversation between the Sorelevich and Shylock and it seems to give Shylock somebody else to kind of bounce things off of, which he doesn't get in the play. In the play, he's alone, he's this isolated figure- Well, anybody that would have been on his side, Jessica and Lancelot leave him. So like he's left, because originally like he had a few people that in theory, that would be his team, but they switched teams, switched sides. So he's left alone. Right. And so he's this isolated figure. And so in the book, they give him somebody else to talk to. And so it's just really interesting like seeing how that all- Well, also, I think not just giving someone else to talk to you, but I think much like, you know, like we often ask friends for advice because having someone with an outside perspective can look at something slightly more unbiasedly. And I think not for, what's his name? You just- Sorelevich? Yeah. What is that? Sorelevich? Sorelevich. Like he is providing Shylock the opportunity, not that Shylock is that for him, but that Shylock gets to see his own story play out and not be personally have any stake in it. And he gets to look at it more objectively and be like, what should have been better? What advice should I have been given? Like, because if it's happening to you, you feel personally about it and you react to it vengefully and angrily and irrationally, but that like Shylock gets the opportunity to see this happen again. And he gets the opportunity to say, here's what I wish someone would have told me. Right. But it's interesting though, it's like he's doing that. Like I wish somebody would have told me this, but he also can't do anything different than what he did. Like he still sort of holds fast to the fact that he won't talk to Jessica anymore, that they're completely gone their separate ways. And even though he knows it's not right, he can't not do that either. Like there seems to be these kinds of patterns that happen over and over again in the play or in the book. And it's like he's trying to stop it, but doesn't really know how. And I think that that is coming back to this idea of like tradition and our ancestors and our culture, like to what extent should we and do we let them shape our actions, our prejudices, all of these kinds of things. And like how do we get that to stop? Like how do you stop anti-Semitism? Like that's why, I mean, that's why again, I like the conversations about like when you're stuck in the middle of something, do you know why you're doing what you're doing? Right. And so like for all the traditions that are being upheld, all the beliefs that have to be held, all of the et cetera, the loyalty you're supposed to have to your family, to your culture, to your nation, whatever, the fact that when do we stop and question why we do what we do? It doesn't make sense to do what we do. And if it doesn't make sense, you know, then who do you owe your loyalty to? Cause if you just accept it as fact that like, well, this is what my people believe. So I have to do it this way. And if you don't do it this way, you're betraying us in some way. You're like, but do I actually believe this? And if I don't, then what have they betrayed other than this idea that I have held for no reason? So like the fact that it doesn't argue for the fact that these are meaningless beliefs, but just that, do you know why you're doing what you're doing? Do you actually believe in what you're doing? Right. And I think that's why it's so, so to address the elephant in the room, the pound of flesh in Shylock. Yeah. I was like, I can't, you never, I was like, I can't wait until you see what the pound of flesh is. And then you never told me what you thought about what the pound of flesh is. So I just, I don't know, I just finished it like this morning and I don't know. So, Oh really? The pound of flesh in Shylock is my name, is basically Stroylovich once Denton, who was like a stand-in for Antonio in this one to get circumcised in order to, I mean, it is revenge. He calls it revenge, but he's also, there's also this like plot with his daughter. He's trying to get like his daughter back. And so this is his way of like, he wants, I don't know, it's kind of gets complicated in the end about like why it becomes Denton, but it's like this idea that like- It's convoluted. Yeah, it's convoluted towards the end. And I think that it's supposed to be, right? Like, cause by the end, even Stroylovich is like, I don't even know why I'm making him do this other than to make a point. Well, cause I mean, not, honestly, not dissimilarly from urgent events where by the time you get to like, where Porsche is like finding loopholes, you're like, why are we doing this again? Right. Why was the point of any of this? Cause he has the money, right? At the end of March of Venice, he has the money. So, but he's more committed to the actual like, revenge of taking flesh than he is from the end. And that's what you get from the end of this book too. Like he ends up, again, he's like a different woman has run away, not a different woman, a different man has run away with his daughter. And originally he wants that man to get circumcised and become Jewish because he wants his daughter to marry a Jew. But then his daughter and this man run off. And so this other guy, who is a enemy of Sojlovic becomes a stand-in and says, I will do this for my friend. And because Sojlovic hates him, he gets this kind of glee from the idea of circumcising him about like making him do- Which like the Porsche type character, that's why she suggests that they do this. Cause she's like, he doesn't care who gets circumcised, he just wants someone to suffer for this. So let's do it this way. I bet it'll go for it. And it's this idea of like wanting to make somebody what they hate, this idea that like circumcision as like this holy rite of passage can like make somebody monstrous, like at the same time, because that's how they view them. That's all about like making them how they view the other. Which is also an interesting thing to do in reaction to Merchant of Venice because the stipulation they make for Sojlovic is that he must convert to Christianity. So then he or having Sojlovic basically say, no, you must convert to Judaism via circumcision. Like it's kind of flipping that around. So basically what makes the whole thing absurd is that the guy, his enemy is already circumcised because in modern day. A lot of people are. People are and it's not for religious purposes. And at the end it's just kind of like, and so it's like this holy thing that's supposed to mark, it's this holy thing that's supposed to mark who was Jewish and who was not Jewish. But then it's been taken into the medical fields. Now a lot of people are and then in some ways it's become this kind of meaningless difference then, like now you can't tell. And so at the end you're just kind of again, like that empty absurd feeling of like, what was it all for? Like they went through all of that. Did anybody learn anything? Did anybody throw? Well, that's why I was so like when I read this, it slightly was fresh in my brain than yours because I read this like first thing this month, Merchant of Venice and then Chalks. My name was like the first two books I read in November but I messaged you and it was like, this is probably my favorite health guard. And then it's low key feels like an Abercrombie retelling of Merchant of Venice because like, that's kind of how you feel when you read Abercrombie where like, did these people learn anything? Like are they being, and it's not like, he writes, you know, pretty reprehensible people doing reprehensible things but not as caricatures. They're not just like evil people being evil. They're like very human people with very human foibles and like they're being selfish and vengeful and petty and they have sometimes pretty legitimate reasons for feeling that way. But these aren't like necessarily the noblest versions of how you could react to that. And like there is a lot of, you know, bigotry and selfishness involved. And so I feel like the way that this, because if you're going to retell Merchant of Venice, if you were going to try to clean it up and try to make it not racist, try to make it somehow this nice, like let's not address the elephant in the room of like how everyone is kind of awful in Merchant of Venice. That's who we were talking about before we like actually like got to talking about the retelling just that like, I mean, Antonio, like, okay, he's willing to like risk life in limb for his friend that he might be in love with, but also he like spits on Shylock and he, his very like anti-semitic and he, you know, insults the idea of interest which is like the reason money lending is frowned on. And I mean, obviously Bassanio is super selfish and just asking for money and from everybody. Horsha is kind of takes her like vindictiveness to a unnecessary degree. Shylock is kind of in the right, but I mean, he could have just taken the money that he insisted on his pound of flesh. So like, I mean, Merchant of Venice is almost the most ever grummy play over them all where like everyone is doing selfish things for selfish reasons. And at the end of it, you're like, who was I rooting for in this? Nobody. And so I think that the retelling about the way it leans into that, it doesn't try to clean it up or shy away from that or try to like explain it away or make it somehow okay. It really leans into making them the modern versions of reprehensible people doing reprehensible things for self, not for like earth shattering, evilness just for just like generally people being shitty. Yeah. For sure. And I think that it's like, you know, it's too easy to say, oh, Shakespeare was just anti-Semitic because I don't think that this, like it's just like as an Othello. Like we don't hate Othello at the end. We don't even hate. I'm sure I can work it in. And Neil Gaiman. We'll pepper that in later too. It's like we don't hate Othello at the end. It's, you know, we don't hate Shylock at the end of this either. Like I don't think that they would have done that back then either. Like I think- Well, you can't be wholly anti-Semitic and give him the, if you prick us, do we not bleed speech? Right. Exactly. You can't like make excuses for like the reasons why he's doing, like you can't make, you know, him want revenge on Antonio for personal slights. Like, I mean, this is a, you know, it's not- If he wanted us to hate Shylock then Antonio wouldn't have come off as villainous as he does himself. Right. Like Iago is like the black hat villain, right? Like Iago and Othello, like he doesn't have any reason for why he's doing anything. So he's like clearly the villain. He's the joker. He just wants to see the world burn. Right, exactly. Although we are still super interested in this character because he gets the best lines in the play. And that's what Jake Spear does. He gives like the greatest lines to, you know- Also Sammy, that's why like, well, okay, here's your do-in-reference genuinely. This is why I complained so much about Baron Harkinen because forget the fact that he's, you know, that it's fat phobic and homophobic and all of that jazz. It's just uninteresting because he's like a mustache twirling villain who's like, oh, that's the bad guy. No nuance. That's just, that's the baddie. That's job of the hat. And like it doesn't present an interesting counterpoint to the protagonist. It doesn't trouble your sense of what's right and wrong. It doesn't make you question anything. It doesn't, like the best villains are the ones that make you go, you kind of have a point. Do I agree with you? So like if a villain is just like, you're like, that's, that's boring. That's Disney. But if a villain can, like Yago says a lot of things, we were like, you're not wrong. So like those, I mean, that's, I mean, one of the many reasons that I enjoy Shakespeare is because he doesn't have mustache whirling villains. Like his comedies have tragedy. His tragedies have comedy. His like heroes do unheroic things. His villains say things that you're like, that's true. So it just troubles your idea of everything all of the time. Right. If even in, oh my gosh, is it alls well that ends well? That is the one with Claudius and- I'm not super familiar with that one. So, can't help it. Well, there's one, it's the one where like she like pretends to die because she gets you. Oh, much to do about nothing. It's Claudius and the hero. Much to do about nothing has like the kind of mustache twirling villain who, you know, the bastard son. But even that play, it's like, again, the outside forces that's the villain. Because it's like, even though he's the one that convinces everybody that she's not a virgin, it's everybody else's action that leads to the almost tragedy. Right? I mean, you could do the same with Othello. Like, you know, it's- Yeah, well, I mean like a mustache twirling villain he's just like killing them all. You know what I mean? Like, but instead he's like, he's the devil on your shoulder whispering in your ear and making use of come to your worst instincts so that you end up the villain of your own story. You're like- Like, he would've ignored me. Quite a syndronicus. Like, you're like, yeah, I'm not totaling it, why? You wanna murder everybody? Like, I don't even think there's really one that you can't really get. And again, with much to do, it's like that guy, he's being treated like shit because he's the bastard son. So he kind of wants to get it. I mean, like when he explains why he's doing what he's doing and it is, you know, like everyone has to explain why they do what they do in Shakespeare. Right. I mean, the fact that he's basically just, he can't, doesn't have any direct way to get back at his brother because his brother is, you know, in fricking charge. But so he's like, he's, excuse me, this guy is a favorite of my brothers. And he's like, so messing him up, will upset my brother. So that's next best. That's what I'm doing. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I think it is really interesting the way that we, kind of, we always get, like this society is creating villains. And the way that people- So one of the things that I like also just about Shakespeare in general is, I mean, and the more obvious thing is just the playing with language all the time and the playing with meanings of words and making, like within a scene, giving a new meaning to a word. So like, I hadn't really thought of this before, but I started, I didn't finish it, but I started rewatching the Al Pacino version last night, which I gave me a bunch of times, but I hadn't seen it in a little while now. And I didn't really think about this when I read the play, but watching Pacino's performance made me think of it that when Shylock is trying to convince Antonio and Bassanio that he's not trying to trick them, that he's not being a villain, that they can make a deal with him. The fact that he keeps using the word friendship and that he'll be a friend to you and that in friendship he is offering what value is a pound of flesh to him, it is done. I gain nothing from this. So it is a kindness that I offer you. It is selfless that I offer this to you. And I just feel like the way that he keeps, like redefining the words he's using, it really reminded me of in Julius Caesar when he's giving that speech about Brutus. And changing your mind the whole time he's giving that speech, it reminded me of that, the way that Shylock is using words and redefining them as he's talking to you. Yeah, and I think that's what that play does, right? Like with every person, the idea of like bond and what we owe, those kinds of words come up over and over again. And they change meaning depending on like who's sharing those words and what they're supposed to mean. Well, you've been like in the towards the beginning of that conversation when he's just talking to Bassanio and he's like, and Bassanio's explained that Antonio will be like the surety for this Sloan. And Shylock says that he's a good man. And Bassanio is like, well, have you heard that he's not a good man? Like what are you trying to say? And he's like, by a good man, I mean that he has good credit. I am not talking about him as a human being. I'm talking about him as like commodity or change. And so then the fact that he's like, he's a good man, which is a thing you can just say, that he's like, no, I mean, he's a good investment. And Shakespeare does that in a lot of, I mean, that was like a pretty big trope too. Like back then this idea of like people being commodities, which is interesting because it's like, you know. Well, women are definitely channeled to be traded. Right, exactly. And we see that with like Portia not even, you know, getting a hand in what she and who she can love and the way that like she's kind of her like word to play this game that her dead dad tells her to. And so, and you get, you just get that a lot that like they're how under capitalism, how can anybody have like these like valuable bonds with each other? Like how, like when you have all of these things, the Patriot. Well, that means, again, that's such a juicy scene when they agree to this bond. Because again, where he's saying how like, you know, the question of like the pound of flesh and like is that fair to ask and all the sort of thing. And he says, you know, like you're making a deal with your enemy so that when you take this pound of flesh, you can do it all the more gleefully because who makes money deals between friends? We wouldn't be making this deal if we were friends. Right, right. Which then is interesting because you are doing a money deal essentially with Antonio and Bassanio. And it's like this idea that like because you can't do it between friends, you have to like use this thing that you've hated and you've said that is evil. And so it's like, it's just like the hypocrisy of Antonio, which is what makes him more of like somebody that we dislike in the play. So he's such a hypocrite, you know, it's like you can't take him seriously. But that's what I get. And that's why I love so like Antonio is the one saying that like, no, this is not a deal between friends. Because I mean, Sherlock is the one that's like, you spit on me, you say that I'm evil and yet I offer you this deal anyway. And he's like, we're not friends and I hate you and I still hate you and that we don't do deals between friends. We do deals between people who need a deal in order to have an agreement. That's why you have to have this in writing. And that's when again, Sherlock flips it around and he's like, what do I gain from this deal? I gain a pound of flesh, which is not even like a pound of goat's flesh that I could eat or sell. It's literally useless. I get nothing out of this. So how is it not friendship and kindness that I offer you this deal where you are the one that gets money and I get nothing. Okay. Yeah, he's, it's a, you know, Shakespeare's a genius. I can say I'm best for the Loki, Loki, a genius. But I think that's why I loved this, like, this, this Hogarth, this, like, this reimagining is because it, like, he does do a lot of that same stuff with the language. And like, there's a lot of conversations where Shylock just gets obsessed about like a word. Like, what does this word even mean in these, in this context? And I just think that that makes it like so much more interesting. But again, like, so like as a retelling, I like that it's kind of pressing on the same, I don't know, the same themes. And then like coming to slightly, or similar conclusions, but in a more interesting, and just, in a just as interesting way. And like feeds them into our modern context, right? Like it takes these things that were still there then and then like puts them in this modern context. And it's more- I love throwing in the like the casual, the casual anti-Semitism of the boyfriend who like used to do Nazi salutes on the football pitch and is like, well, he doesn't do that anymore. And, you know, yeah, he's into this. Like he didn't even think about it really. Like it's clear that he's not like aggressively, like passionately anti-Semitic. He just has clearly not thought that much about this and doesn't even occur to him how problematic and offensive that is to somebody who is Jewish. Right. Well, even like Plurabel, who's like the Porsche character and Denton, who's the Antonio character, like they have like tons of like these casual anti-Semitic speeches like in there that are supposed to be like funny. And it's very much this critique of, and they're supposed to be these kind of liberal people. And so it's very much this critique of like white liberalism that still like uses the structures of prejudice and anti-Semitism like in their jokes and the way that they think about things because they still privilege like their own perspectives over everybody else's. And- I think that's what I realized that it reminded me of Abercrombie is they reminded me of Giselle who's a sort of like outward facing like he's like probably a nice guy. Like he's the least offensive out of anybody like in terms of how he presents to the outside world but his thoughts are like pretty reprehensible. Like he's things pretty awful things. I have people all the time. But I was reading it and kept texting you how much I hated him. Yup. Like more than like torture. I'm like, cause at least Wabka like knows who he is. Like he's a torture. He doesn't like- The casual hypocrisy. To be better. There's no hypocrisy in that. He knows who he is and he doesn't pretend anything else. Where as like Giselle- And yet the person that like does the least active harm is Giselle. Yeah. It's not actually hurting anybody. I know, but he is like the epitome of like a white man failing upwards. Like- Yup. He's trying about it. Well, and which again, like I think is I get another reason why it's surrounding Abercrombie because like there are so many people in this book that say things that you're like, what now? But at no point does it feel like is the author think this? And yet they're not caricatures. Like they don't feel like, you know this horrible like cartoon version of like, well, they're obviously a racist. No, they feel like people that you definitely have met and that you definitely know and that think things that you're like, hmm, that's not okay. Right. Horrible is like, I'm not anti-Semitic just because I think this, this is the most reprehensible thing. I'm not anti-Semitic just because I'm not Hitler. Like I don't know. It's like this, it very much goes into the way that anti-Semitism is like so much in this, this like modern Christian context, even for people who aren't Christian but we're still raised within this like Christian. Well, I mean like, especially this doesn't take place like with America in mind but like in America in particular, you know even if you yourself are not Christian like the founding principles of the of the nation though it was written with a Christian worldview in mind and it's, you know, a lot of it's built in to, you know, under God and all this kind of thing. So like it's just understood to be the default. And I think like the English like to pretend they're more worldly, but they have a queen who's like head of the church of England and the only reason she still has any power is because of the divine right of kings. Like it makes no sense. I like- Plush tourism. British and we get in this- Great tourist attraction. We get, we get in this argument all of the time because he talks about like Puritan, and you know, American settling. And then like, but at least we have like this idea of the separation of church and state. It doesn't always happen. We have it. Whereas like in England, they don't even pretend to do it because- The church is the state and the state is the church. In England. And so it's like even if like they're not, I think that they're like conservative Christians not the same as ours. The answer to, I'm pretty sure the author is English. Yeah. I'm hoping that he's Jewish too. I hope they didn't get like a no. I mean, the last name, Jacobson, I think is pretty. Yeah. I was figuring he was, but. So I think that like Britain, even though they like to act like they're European and more worldly, they still have this very Anglican church understanding who they are. Jacobson himself considers Merchant of Venice to be the most troubling of Shakespeare's place for anyone, but for an English novelist who happens to be Jewish. The answer is both questions in one sentence. Also the most challenging. Yeah. Well, he did a good job. He did. And I just, I love that he actually like changed something. I think what we've been talking about with the Hogarths is that like the first half are always more interesting because that's like where they take liberties, but then at the the endings. They're still driving towards zero. It has to end the way the play ends. Whereas I think this one was kind of flipped for me where I was a little bit bored in the beginning, but it was the second half of the play or the second half of the book where it got more interesting because I couldn't tell where he was going. Well, it's like in Merchant of Venice, you know about the Pound of Flesh pretty much from the get-go. And it's always kind of the ticking time bomb that you're aware of. And here it is a ticking time bomb insofar as if you've read the play, you know there has to be some form of a Pound of Flesh. And so he keeps that from, he keeps from telling you what that's going to be. And you're like, okay, but where's the Pound of Flesh? And what will the Pound of Flesh be? Because it can't be like exactly the same because like that would be super weird. So you're like, where is the Pound of Flesh? And then he finally gets around to telling you where the Pound of Flesh is going to be, you're like, oh my gosh, he did it. Like what's interesting because it is like, the foreskin is this thing, like in the imagination of difference. And then so to make that something that you're then confronted with is just interesting to me. Because there is this like really obsessed sexual obsession throughout like the whole book. It got a little too Freudian for me in some places, especially because it is about like a father losing his daughter to people. And I don't know why he had to make Beatrice so young. Like why he had to make her 16. Well, I think that, I mean, I don't know for obviously if this is for sure the reason, but I think because in the modern day, women are their own people and can make their own decisions. And so she has, she would have to be a minor in order for him to be like, she's not a grown woman yet. So she's legally not even allowed to make this decision as her father. Like, you know what I mean? So like adding that element where it's like, if she was, you know, 20 years old, you'd be like, well, you may not like it, but she's her own person legally speaking. But because she's not actually her own person yet legally speaking, then he as a father can be like, ah. And he can take like legal action against a grown man who's, yeah, just kind of got a little bit yucky. But like, yeah, and even then like, Starlovitch is like, why am I so obsessed with my daughter's sexual life? And so, but I think that is really interesting too, this idea that we do kind of create this cultural obsession with what our daughters are doing. Like one thing that I hate here is this idea that like dads have to get out their guns to protect their daughter. Yeah, I was gonna say like that's the stereotype. It's never that a boy is starting to date when you get out your shotgun. And the girl is starting to date, get out your shotgun. Right, exactly. And then is this like obsession about who she is sleeping with? That's it. It has nothing to do with it. Well, it's also the idea of like, who are you getting over care over her too? As opposed to just like, you know, you're a person gets to choose what you do. You're like, no, I am her caretaker. That's why you get given away at a wedding. Now you are gonna be her caretaker. Am I delivering her into safe hands? In theory, that's what Portia's father was like from the grave trying to ensure that like I can't be around to pick the guy that I hand her off to. So I'm gonna leave behind a mechanism that is my best attempt at picking the guy that I deliver her to. And he ended up giving her to somebody who has less than no money. Good job. Yeah, yeah. So I think it's really interesting though that the play is still, I mean, the book is still about like this kind of obsession we have over. I mean, honestly, like, obviously like Merchant of Venice from the title and from how we think of it, we think of the bond and the deal and all of that. But really it's a play about fathers and daughters because Shylock and Jessica and Portia's father sets up that whole thing. And like that's kind of the driving force of the play more so than anything else. Right. Well, cause like I don't, Shylock would not have demanded the flesh if Jessica hadn't gone with Antonio's vote, wherever. Like that was when he found that out. Well, that was the ultimate betrayal. I mean, like, yeah, he was pissed at Antonio and saw the opportunity to kind of like get his own back because he's been spit on by this man. And he's like, oh, Jerry, I'm gonna bring you down a bit. But he is like lost everything when Jessica leaves. And that's him like weeping in the streets, my duckets, my daughter, my daughter, my duckets. Like that's what, and then he can't do anything about that or to the guy that took her. So he's like, well, I got you in front of me. So I'm gonna take it from you. Right. And like we see that in the Hogarth when a Storilevich is mad at Denton, it's about like, it's about his daughter about, cause I guess, cause the Antonio Denton guy ends up like giving his daughter to this, this like football player in the sense that like he introduces them and like facilitates their romance as like a diversion for his friend. But it's also the past about like denying his family, like a family art museum. And it's like this kind of, so it's like, it's like this idea of like, this one betrayal of his daughter is like representative of all these other kinds of ancestor betrayals. And then he becomes like obsessed with that, of like trying to punish that, which I think we see in Sherlock too. It's like this betrayal of his daughter, but also just like the way that Jews are treated. Like I am going to get this because of the way that we are treated. Which is again, why like, I mean, we already said that Portia goes too far with like finding a loophole and how this is going to go down. And then again, like that final insult of like, not only like the mercy that we're going to show you is that your property is going to go to the man who stole your daughter. And in order for this mercy to be offered to you, you have to convert to Christianity. Like there's just like, okay, at that point, you're off book, that's not in the agreement. You're making this up and you're just being cruel. Yeah. And I think that the conversion is like, is even, it's like, okay, fine. He has to like pay money now, but then to like convert, I mean, that is, yeah. That's the final insult. That is, yeah. And then it kind of gets to why he's treated so badly. Is it that? And that's kind of what- Well, it also gets, I mean, like the way that the Christians almost would regard like you get to be saved, like for your own good, we're doing this. Like your daughter was already saved because she was rescued by this Christian. So she converted for him. So we're doing you a kindness because we're going to let you give your money to your daughter and let you join her in the true faith. But like they wouldn't even regard it as a cruelty because they'd be like, oh, well, you shouldn't be Jewish anyway. So you're welcome. If that was supposed to be, you know, if Shakespeare was truly like anti-Semitic, they would have made that a happy ending, right? Like, but nobody's like, like, he's not happy about it. Like nobody is really happy about it. And it seems like very like that. And Jessica is not happy when she learns that this has gone down. Like, I mean, honestly at the end of the play, the first that I'm saddest for is Jessica. Yeah. It's like the end of measure for measure when like the silent woman at the end of the play, like there's a reason why she doesn't get to talk. I mean, again, like if this was, if Shakespeare really like was, I mean, again, he grew up in that time. So it's like kind of a move point to talk about, say whether or not he's racist or not. But I feel like if this was- The Avenue Q said everyone's a little bit racist. Yeah, exactly. So like, but if we were supposed to be completely against Shylock, then that ending would be happy and joyous. And like that's not what the ending of that play does. Like at the end of much to do, it's like, we're gonna have a dance party and try and like, you know, undo all of the bad. And it tries really hard to make that ending happy. That's not what the merchant of Venice does. At the end of merchant of Venice, we have a whole nother act to get, or a whole nother scene to get through with like Bassanio and Portia and Jessica. It's like that's not- Like everyone has broken lives and broken promises at the end of merchant of Venice. But you're like- You're all like thrown back at me and me. No, it's like if that was supposed to be joyous, they would be much more happening. And we just don't get that. You're kind of just left like, ew, I didn't want that to happen. But there's almost the sense of like, at the ending, everyone is mask off. You know, like there were all these pretensions and all these agreements and all these noble words and like between Portia and Bassanio, between Antonio and Bassanio, between Antonio and Shylock, between like Shylock and Jessica, and all of that's broken. Everyone is seen who everyone really is, and no one likes it, and they just have to live with it now. You have to live with each other. You have the ones that, and Jessica, they're at the beginning, they're just like the sweet young couple in love. And by the end, Lorenzo's like, I saved you from a life of June, June. I saved you from the darkness. And she's like, well, I don't, okay. And so they'll just make that person either. Jessica, at the end is Job from Rest of Development. Like I have made a huge mistake. And that's what the Hogarth does. Like at the Hogarth Beatrice, who is the Jessica character in the Hogarth, comes back to Stroylovich. And she's like, I'm still gonna date this guy. I may not marry him. And she's like, I guess I'm betrothed, but it's kind of like said as a joke. Like, cause it was never that serious to her. You know, it was just a way to like exist. And her father kind of took it too far. But she comes back to him at the end. And she's just like, let's just, this is what it is. And you don't really, you know, like, like you kind of get this, this, this repair, this repair a little bit between father and daughter. It's not great. And it's never, it's probably going to happen again. That's like anger and cycle will continue. But at least she's back for now just to say hi, you know, to her, to her. As to the ring thing. I mean, I don't think there's one point to it, but I mean, one of the points to it is to put the lie to the beautiful promises made because this whole play is about breaking your words. This whole play is about never, like people saying one thing and doing another. And so it's all very pretty when Bassanio guesses the right box and says that you're my one and only and you're my prize and you're blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then when push comes to shove, by doing the ring thing, it puts the lie to his pretty words and says, basically at the end Porsche is like, okay, I mean, you're my husband and we're gonna live together, but I know who you are. You've shown me who you are. And we're going into this not with pretty words, not with beautiful promises. We're going into this honestly. Like, I know where I stand. You know, I know where you stand. Yeah. And like, you know, the ring is just another bond, just like, you know, it's like the contract. It's like, you know, a wedding band is a bond, is like a symbolic bond between people that like, we will, you know, be together forever and we'll put each other first. And so when he gives it away, you know, for his friend, it's like the failure of that bond, just like all of the other bonds in the play. So I think it's like an important symbol to show. I mean, I joke, because my husband was watching it with me last night as we were doing a puzzle and watching it. He has to say, that was the point of all of that. And I was like, well, he wanted to see, she wanted to see if men could keep their word. They can't, like that's the whole point of the play. Or even if, I mean like, it's not even like, men can keep their word, but who they keep it to. And then that like, at the end, like you can see, you can say what you wanna say about who you love most and who you are loyal to and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But this like, when it came down to it, you chose Antonio over Orsha. And that's the truth. You can say whatever you want, you can promise, you can promise whatever you want, but the truth is, you chose Antonio. My kids are back. I hear that. I hear them in the back, but she didn't force him. She didn't force him. She just made it uncomfortable. And he could have, if he was really choosing, if he was really choosing Orsha, if she really wasn't more important to him, then he would have been like, this is uncomfortable. And I wish you wouldn't ask this of me, but I cannot, like that's my line and I cannot. But instead he's like, I don't wanna, I shouldn't, but like, this is more important. So I'm gonna choose this. Right, and the only reason she does it is because he says, when he's like defending, like when he's begging for Antonio's life, he says, I would give up Orsha for you. Like, and that's kind of the moment that she's like, or at least that's how a lot of plays will, you know, play that moment. Is that like, he just said that he's, he owes Antonio more than her. So now he's, she's going to put that to the test. Again, put his word to the test. And so I think it's both, right? Well, it's also, I think an opportunity, like for her to see because like, he's made pretty promises to her and words are empty until you show what they mean. And so like he could, you know, just because he says that to Antonio, that could also be empty. He could also just be trying to be elaborate about saying, oh, Antonio, like I would, you know, give up Orsha for you. That like those might also be empty words. So she's like, let's find out. Let's like, these are all just words. Let's find out, put your money where your mouth is. Who do you actually choose? Which is the true promise? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, yeah, of course he has a choice. Well, again, I think it's like who, I mean, we see this and Romeo and Juliet too, like at towards the end, when after like Romeo and Juliet get married, Tybalt like wants to have like a duel, you know, and Mercutian, you know, and like, but Romeo has promised Juliet that he like wouldn't, you know, go after her cousin Tybalt. And she's like, we're family now, we're family. I'm paraphrasing a lot here, obviously. But then something, and then Mercutio gets into it with Tybalt and he's like, hey, you're like my buddy. We're supposed to be in this together. And he says like to Romeo, like you need to do this. Like we need to defend ourselves. Like you need to go after Tybalt. And his dying words to Romeo are like, you need to go after him, right? And like you need to, you know, whatever, enact revenge. And so then he's caught between his word to Juliet and his word to Mercutio. I'm having trouble saying that today. And who does he listen to? He goes off and kills Tybalt. And that's the reason why he has, he's exiled. And that leads to the tragedy of the play. Like that's why they ended up dying because he kills Tybalt. He didn't listen to Juliet. I mean, also, so like the choice that Bassanio has is to, to disappoint one of them because he made a promise to never give away this ring. And he's also said to this doctor that he'll give him anything that he wants. And so he has a choice to disappoint and try to explain why the choice he's making is the right one to one of them. So we can really work hard to convince the doctor and say, okay, I know that's what you want, but I really can't, I really can't for these reasons. You have to understand, you have to understand. And like have to live with the fact that the doctor may not be satisfied with that explanation because he knows that Portia, like he's gonna have to face her if he chooses the other and have to explain and say, no, you don't understand, you don't understand, like this is how I had to do this. So like he's gonna have to explain to somebody why he did a thing that they didn't or did want him to do. And so he's made the choice to disappoint Portia instead of disappointing the doctor. So because at that point, the doctor, it's not like a situation where like the doctor said, I'm not gonna defend Antonio until you pay me which point he's like, he needs his services. No, the services have been rendered. He's just asking for a thank you and you don't have to give it to him, but you decided that's worth more to you. Yeah. And again, that's like the choice that Romeo makes. It's like, does he keep his promise to Juliet to like not kill Tybald? Or does he keep his promise to his friend and to like to revenge him for, and like for his family, you know, his family name. And so it's like, contrast, like there's that moment in much to do about nothing when he's like, bid me do anything in the world for thee and she's like, kill Claudio. And he's like, no, bid me do anything other than that. But then when push comes to shove, she's like, fine, then you don't love me. Are you sit, do anything? That's what I want. If you won't do that for me and you don't love me. And he's like, okay, I'll do it. Yeah. And then put in all of these instances, the men always keep, they always keep their word to men. They always prioritize the bonds. Except Benedict. And at the end, the only couple that like comes away, kind of a happy ending is Benedict and Beatrice. Because Claudio, like he, him and hero being together at the end, is that a happy ending? Yeah. But Benedict and Beatrice, that is a happy ending. Right, right, yeah. Yeah, that's true. But I do think, so it's like, yes and no, he did have a choice. It's a hard one. And that's the whole point of Shakespeare. You have to make hard choices. And are they the right? The fact of that choice being hard is what makes, it shows which is your priority. Cause again, like, you're either gonna piss off the doctor or you're gonna piss off Borscha. And you have to decide which it matters more to you to please. And you decided it matters more to you to please this doctor who saved Antonio's life than to please your wife. That's the choice you made. And there's no like getting around that. So now they get to live the rest of their lives together just knowing that like, you can say you love me and that's not not true. But I don't, you don't love me the most. And I know that's true. Yeah, yeah, like I know, yeah, exactly. And so I think that he does that in comedies a lot when like, you know, if they don't die at the end, they at least kind of like live knowing, you know, it's like in midsummer's night's dream. Like everybody kind of gets, you know, gets to see the truth of things. And you know, I think that he does that in comedies. He kind of like has these romantic plots that are fun. But at the end, he's like, but these aren't real. Like these, this isn't what's real. Like, let's go. And at the end of midsummer, when what's her name? What's his name? Has that a, oh gosh. And then like getting all my characters mixed up. But you know, like the one of them is like still drugged at the end of the summer. Will Sandor? I mean, that's never been my favorite play. So I don't know that one as well. It's an idea that like in order for this to work, in order to make sure that life is not messy, we are going to like basically keep magic on this one person. Like we have to work really hard to make reality work. But I was just thinking, so like a lot of this is kind of like showing, so you say really nice things to each other, but it's showing the real truth of how you actually feel is not so pretty. And I think that's why Benedict and Beatrice is a happy ending because like they've been saying mean things to each other, but the secret is the real truth is that they love each other. And so then there's that whole thing of like they have, they've written, you know, sonics to each other. Like here's our own hands against our hearts that like, you know, the real truth we unearthed that we dug up, the dirty secret is that you love each other. So that's a happy ending. Yes, yes. And I think it is, it is the most joyful of the, of the comedies at the end. Now that I know. I mean, Love's Labor's Lost is a real downer. And even like 12th night, I mean, you have a guy, yeah, you have a guy like, I will be back. And I will be back straight in that scene. Like don't get too comfortable in your happiness because I will be back to ruin it. And so you have this like threat of like ruination, like that's gonna happen in the future. Again, these like cycles of revenge that just don't stop. Even then, I mean, like Olivia ends up with some guy that is this entire stranger to her just because he looks like Viola. And in Viola, she's in love with. You look like the dude I thought you were and you have the parts. So I guess you, even though I don't know you at all. Yeah, and then like all's well it ends while you kind of have the same thing. Or she's like, well, I guess I'll become a woman again even though I had way more fun as a dude. But in order for this to work, I guess I have to put a dress on again. So I think all of them kind of end with this, like, are you sure this is what you really want kind of moment besides, you know? I mean, I think my second favorite is as you like it and just all of the times that Rosalind is like, he's like, but would my Rosalind do this? She's like, she will do as I do. Because I am Rosalind. Yeah. So I always get those two mixed up all's well and as you like it, I think it's A. Because I start with an A. Yeah. And my brain is like, I was open seven times last night. So I'm a mushy brain. At least your children didn't run away with all your duckets. Yeah. Give them time. But so yeah, I think we can crown this the champion of the Hogarths. So far, yeah. You did it the best list. Well done, sir. Yeah, it's definitely, I think you still get more out of it from being, from knowing the play. None of them stand on their own. Yeah. None of them stand on their own so far. So, but yeah, I think it. Honestly, this one might stand on its own the least. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because like literally, Sherlock's showing up, you'd be like, who's this? If you haven't read the play. Like what's, like if you hadn't read the play, I think you would read the whole book going like, what is this supposed to be about? Because like I said, nothing. It's not really about anything. It's like nothing really happens. It really is just an exploration of like the themes of the play. So, but it was still super interesting. Mm-hmm. And what do you think of the other one? Well, I think, I mean, if we assume, so we've experienced to this Hogarth project that like, so none of them can stand on their own. None of them like surpass that bar. So like if we assume then that no Hogarth or no retelling can stand on its own, which one does the most interesting thing? Which one does the most, you know, its own interpretation adds something to the conversation, et cetera, et cetera. Like which one has the most purpose for existing other than for the sake of retelling something? Yeah. And I think this one has a reason to be other than just like I would, the assignment was to retell it. So I retold it. Yeah. And I feel like if you read like the last chapter of this book, like if I was going to teach Merchant and Venice, like I would assign the last chapter of this book as a way to kind of talk about what's happening in Merchant and Venice because I feel like it does that more because what I think is really interesting about that. So in Merchant and Venice, he was like, I don't think there, I don't know of any future ones that are not published that are going to be published. So we think they soft canceled it. But, you know, in the Merchant and Venice Shylock says, like we learned revenge from you. But then at the end of the Hogarth, he says it's so funny that you guys talk about mercy and compassion when the Christians learned it from the Jews. And so he kind of like flips that too, which I think is really interesting. Well, he flips a lot of what it does. Like I said, like when it flips the who's being asked to convert, like the fact that, you know, Shylock is asked to convert Christianity and here the pound of flesh and circumcision is in a way getting him to convert to Judaism. In this idea, and I think that it shows like Judaism came first, like that's the whole point of that. And this book really presents that as like, why are you acting like you're the exemplars when you're copied? When you just copied our homework. Copied or over. That's just an entire religious history. Yeah. Well down. That's it. You don't need to do learn anything else. Yeah. Do you think? Yeah, I just, I love that whole last chapter. I thought it was so interesting what he did with like Shylock and flipping all of that. But then again, like, again, Sturlovitch does say like it was all absurd. Like no one was going to win. He was already circumcised. That doesn't really have the same meaning it did in the past. And like to, again, to what degree do we let the past rule us? Well, I mean, again, so like, so I was saying one of the things that was the best about it was the fact that it didn't shy away from it leaned into like the ugly side of the play that it's retelling. And once again, I mean, like just like in the play, sorry, if you can hear that siren. Oh God, I'll mute myself. Okay, you heard my screaming children. It is really, it's okay. Okay, I think it's mostly past. So there's that instinct in a present day to like clean up Shylock or at least whoever's going to represent Shylock and make him like a shining and fault-free character and then really lean into vilifying the other people. But this book doesn't do that. Like it much like the play. Yeah, like the white Christians are villainous. So is the standard for Shylock. That like nobody is a hero in this. They're all messy. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's why I did see the play. I did see a merchant of Venice in Chicago once and it had, what's his name, playing Shylock? I think Ben Knight or something. I don't know. The guy that played the Mandarin in the Iron Man movies. Look how I know him. Oh, yeah. Anyways, he was Shylock. And that's exactly what they did to try to make it more like palatable to like a modern audience is they made everybody else really horrible. They had all of these scenes. Like anytime Shylock was in a scene like with the Christians, like they would be like beating him and spitting on him. Like they were like overdoing the violence to like make it more understandable like why Shylock did what he does at the end. Oh, Ben Kingsley? Yes, that him. Yeah. Yeah. I got the Ben Kings. No, Kaz is not in kiddie jail. I actually have no idea where Kaz is. She's probably asleep somewhere. They also like shouted a lot because I think Americans tend to do that when they do Shakespeare. They just like shout the lines. That's why like I'm, for the most part I always favor the Royal Shakespeare Company Productions because like I don't, I don't subscribe to the idea that like you have to be English to do Shakespeare but low key when I see them do it I'm like, they get it. They just get it. Like, yeah, that's how you do it. Unless you see people who like, like in Stanton they have the, in Virginia they have the Black Friars Theater which is like a recreation of one of the theaters of Shakespeare's time and they do a really good job but it's because it's like part of the program to study Shakespeare. It's not just like actors who are doing plays in Chicago or New York or whatever. It's like students of the literature also doing the acting and I think they can just do it better, you know. But yeah, but what I liked about the movie last night was that it was so quiet like nobody really like, yeah. Well, I think Al Pacino also did this on stage. Like the rest of the cast wasn't on stage but I'm pretty sure Al Pacino was Sherlock on Broadway. Yeah. And it's like a very like quiet pain. Like you feel his isolation and you feel his anger but it's not a loud anger, you know. And I think that it's more moving that way. And I think that the play that we saw was just awful. So I think that probably, like. Like, colored your. Yeah, colored mine. Well, I mean, I also think that that movie does a good job of like making it very clear how anti-Semitic these times are and how anti-Semitic, you know, Antonio is. He does spit on Shylock. They show that. So it doesn't like shy away from that. I think it doesn't exaggerate it to the point of like absurdity where you're like over-emphasizing how villainous they are. Like, you know, I mean, they are villainous. He does do some pretty like, oh, kinds of things but like sort of Sherlock. Yeah. And it does. And I think it does give like a kind of historical context to that too. It doesn't like, but it doesn't use the historical context to explain it away. Yeah. It doesn't justify. It's just kind of like, this is the situation. So like knowing the context, now you can judge more fairly whether or not the people given this set of circumstances, how they operate within that set of circumstances given the rules present. Right. And so what I think that the Hogarth does is that like it shows how that anti-Semitism exists in our modern context as like a kind of casual anti-Semitism that is still awful. But like people explain a way that like, well, you know, I'm not like the whole because the joke keeps on being while he's not Hitler kind of thing or, you know, like that doesn't really matter that still like casual anti-Semitism exists and it's still like creating. Well, it's not dissimilar from the conversations about racism and how like just because you're not part of the KKK, just because you're not actively wishing harm on somebody who's, you know, a different race from you. That doesn't mean you're not racist. That doesn't mean you don't hold casually racist views that like there's a lot to racism beyond just like kill you because you're not my color. Like that's like the most extreme version of that, but it's not like if you don't subscribe to that, you're in the clear and you're magically perfectly not racist or anti-Semitic. Yeah. I'm like, I'm hearing the little pitter-patter big one. Where are you, mother? I didn't hear it. But yeah, I think that that was one of my favorite. So I do think I have to go though. I'm gonna say, I mean, we've been chatting for a while. So we're taking a break from Shakespeare now to read the ringsworn trilogy, but we'll be back to Shakespeare in February. Yes. Because we're gonna take two months to read the ringsworn trilogy. And then like in February, we're gonna do King Lear. But yeah, I was thinking that on my Instagram, my, my bookstagram of maybe hosting a read-along with us for the ringsworn, and then we can come on here and chat about it. Is that the plan? Sure. Yeah. I mean, I just announced this for everybody in an announcements video, which that was one of. And I threw it out there too, that like if people really wanna participate and that like finishing it by mid-January is too soon, that they're like, I wanna do this, but that's too fast. So like, let us know. And we can like, extend it a bit. Extend it a little bit. Yeah, it sounds like fun to me. So for our triple Lear, because that's the other than Vinegar Girl, which you didn't like. That's the only Hogarth we have left, Dunbar, which is the retelling of King Lear. But then the Queens of Innocent Lear is also a, either retelling or in some way inspired by King Lear. So we're gonna read King Lear, Dunbar and the Queens of Innocent Lear. And I'm sure we can dredge up some other Shakespeare-related things for a minute after that. I mean, well, there is also, I mean, the author of the Queens of Innocent Lear wrote Lady Hotspur. So we could also do that. We could also do that, because I do love the Henry plays. So I would not mind doing that. There's also doing the Hamlet to see the Hamlet. Or is this Norwegian? Hamlet. I'm trying to think if there's any Hamlet retellings that I know of. I mean, I read one when I was a kid that was four kids and I liked it then, but I don't know how I feel about it now. It was called Dating Hamlet. It was from Ophelia's perspective. No, no. I mean, it's one of those where like, you think that this is the ending, but like, fooled ya, and it's all a trick and they live happily ever after. Oh, interesting. I don't think Hamlet deserves that, but you know, whatever. What I've always wanted to do, I mean, because there's so many like Romeo and Juliet retellings. I mean, there's Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead. And there's Lion King. That's a retelling of Hamlet. That's true. But have you ever read Warm Bodies? It's like the zombie book. There's a movie of that, right? Yeah. That's technically like a Romeo and Juliet retelling that I thought was really... Is it? Yeah. But except like he's a zombie and she's... Well, I mean, the second Lion King is Romeo and Juliet retelling as well. Really? And then they made Lion King one and a half, which is from Timon and Poma's perspective. So that's Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead. That's actually... Like actually. Well, we can think of that after we do our career, we can talk about what's next in the Shakespeare world. Indeed, hate zombies. You do, you really? Although I do for some strange reason I really, really like Pride and Prejudice and Zombies. I think something about putting it in a regency era, distance is it enough for me where I'm like, that's fine. But when it's like present day or like dystopian zombies, I'm just like, whoa. I did like, oh gosh, Dreadnation. Like that's... Yeah, but again, it's a historical one. There's something about putting zombies in a historical context. I think Dreadnation was like brilliant because of like the way it like uses, you know, how would you use slaves would use them to defeat the zombies? Like it's... I mean, Dreadnation is like both what historical fantasy should be and also what YA has the capacity to be. And it's just, oh, it is such a like, this is how you do it. Yes. Yeah. That's probably one of my favorites this year that I'm proud of actually. Have you read the second one? Surprise one, a surprise one of YA. Have you read the second one? Not yet. No, I need to. I need to read that one. But so what happens with me? I just like read the first book and then forget to like... It is just a duology though. So it's not like a... But at least it's not like 12 books like most YA's are becoming. Hey adult as well. Wheel of Time is 14. No, I'll just watch the show at this point. Like when I hear a book has like, when I hear it's like, who are you reading in January? Terry. Terry, good kind. Yeah, doesn't he have like, isn't like 20 books long too? But at least each book is like a contained, has its own client. So that's the thing like where it sounds like a lot, but it's just kind of like having a series of movies, as opposed to like a TV show, which you have to wait for the climax for the season finale. But a series of films each has its own climax. So like the good kind books are like a series of movies. I'm excited to read him in January. It's kind of fun. It's fun. Like honestly, those books are fun. They're not like the deepest thing I've ever read. They have problems, but they're not. You don't need it. Anything to be. Yeah, I do like a duology. Me too. Me too. Like, cause it also a duology prevents there being, even though ironically enough, I tend to favor middle books in trilogies, but people always complain about middle book syndrome and in a duology, you can't have middle book syndrome. You can't have a book that's just kind of like, didn't start anything and didn't end anything, just was in the middle. Right. Well, thank you for having me on your channel again. Oh, thank you. I'm excited for Ringthorne and for the Tripolier. I just like calling it that. Yeah. Tripolier. Sounds cool. All right. Well, happy holidays. And I'm very thankful for these Shakespeare chefs that I did there. And we'll see y'all, well, not in December, but in January. For Ringthorne. So yeah. Have a good rest of your day. Bye.