 Welcome to the 24th meeting of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Relations Committee in 2017. I remind members and the public to turn off mobile phones, and any members using electronic devices to access committee papers should ensure that they are turned to silence. Apologies have been received today from Jackson Carlaw and Tavish Scott. Rwyfflywdd cyfnodd ymgyrchu wedi'i ffordd chwilaethol ddigittendu atwm mewn primary and Ken Macquarie, director at nations and regions. Will any of our witnesses like to make an opening statement? Yes, please, convener, I'd like to. Thank you. Shall I? Please, go ahead. Thank you. Well, good morning everybody and thank you for the invitation to attend here today. I last spoke with the committee in September 2016 and of course a great deal has happened in the intervening period. The director general was here in February to discuss the new BBC investment into Scotland in network production and in the exciting prospect of a new television channel. With my colleagues here today, Ken and Dinalda, we look forward today to speaking more about these developments. In July the BBC published its annual report and accounts together with disclosure of all individuals paid more than £150,000 in the year from the licence fee. The annual report for 2016-17 reflected a very strong performance by BBC Scotland across the year. Spend on network television production from Scotland went up by nearly 20 million year on year and the number of network TV hours also saw a significant increase, over 200 hours on the previous year. Network radio hours were also up and going forward, these are figures that we very much want to build on. As we seek to reinvent the BBC for a new generation of audiences across the UK as much as for those in Scotland. It is not, however, an ambition without challenge. 2016-17 was the final year of the delivering quality first efficiency programme under which the BBC had to achieve, in order to balance the books following the 2011 licence fee settlement savings of some £700 million by the end of the last financial year. I am pleased to be able to report to the committee that in July when we published our annual report and accounts we were able to show that we had achieved annual savings of £720 million against that target of £700 million. We now have a licence fee settlement that is linked to the consumer price index and that is very helpful in terms of planning for the future, however we will also very soon be required to absorb the cost of free licences for those over 75 years of age and together with the need to meet inflationary costs we will, by 2122, be required to save an additional £800 million a year. It is a big financial ask, particularly at a time when rightly, audiences are demanding more and more of the BBC. In Scotland we recognise that more needs to be done to support the broadcast industry and to provide a more effective means by which Scotland and its people can be portrayed and represented on air. The investment in a proposed new television channel and the guaranteed additional investment in network TV content, allied to a recent announcement by the First Minister indicating that a further 10 million of Government funding will be invested in TV and film in Scotland, provides a strong financial base on which we can collectively grow the industry here and provide a significant improvement in the offer to Scottish audiences. I've heard many times from colleagues here in Scotland just how much there is a growing sense of what can be possible through genuine partnerships and collaboration and a collaborative approach towards a truly sustainable broadcast model here in Scotland, one that crosses all broadcast platforms and embraces all audiences. Recent Government announcements on the attempt to establish a dedicated screen unit within Creative Scotland to provide funding for the establishment of a hub of the national film and television school at the BBC headquarters at Pacific Key in Glasgow give a clear indication of the determination and commitment to develop the industry and provide much-needed training and jobs in Scotland. Though the BBC has financial challenges ahead of it in the years to come, I also believe that we have before us a tremendous opportunity collectively to help to develop and build an industry sector and a broadcast offer that really does meet the needs and expectations of all audiences in Scotland and which showcases the best of Scottish talent across the UK. Thank you, convener, for the opportunity to offer those opening remarks. Thank you very much, Ms Balford. Can I start by asking about the new channel and then I'd like to go into more detail about the network spend in Scotland? Obviously, the committee, like many other people in Scotland, welcomed the new channel. However, I understand that it's not a done deal. You have to make your proposal to off-com. There's a chance that off-com could, of course, reject your proposal. Could you, perhaps, for the benefit of the viewers at home, explain that process? Why don't I start, convener, and then pass to Dan Alder if that's going to be helpful? The new channel is subject to a public interest test under our regulations. The first stage of that is for the BBC board to consider whether the public value of the new channel justifies any potential adverse impact in competition, which is a regulatory requirement. The board has undertaken that review and considered the question and has confirmed that the public value indeed justifies the new channel. The proposal now needs to be sent on to off-com and it will be for off-com to then make a further assessment of the BBC's process, as well as reaching its own view on the balance between the public value proposal and any effect on competition. The process will take up to a maximum of six months to complete, and as part of our submission, we've made our argument strongly as to the public value of the new proposition. When are we likely to see the new channel on the ear? We announced at the beginning of the year that the ambition was to launch the channel in the autumn of 2018. Approvals are permitting. That plan is still in place. What we haven't done yet is to identify a date. We don't want to commit to that date, because, as Anne has just explained, the approvals process could take up to six months. However, I am confident that, if we do get approval, we will be able to launch sometime in the autumn of 2018. The autumn, as I have pointed out to a number of people in the past, can stretch as far as December 2018. One of the criticisms that has been made of the proposal is the budget for it, £30 million. The First Minister, in her speech to the television festival, made this point that £30 million compares very poorly to the £75 million that the Scottish Broadcasting Commission said that it would be required for a Scottish digital network. It is well behind, for example, the budget for RTE1. I know that one of the former RTE executives is coming over to be your head of multi-platform commissioning. He is used to dealing with a budget of £142 million, but he will have to produce the channel for considerably less than that. How can that be done? I am delighted to say that Steve Carson has already joined us at BBC Scotland coming via BBC Northern Ireland, but, yes, as he rightly said, from RTE. I am confident that, with the £30 million that is a starting point, that we can work very cleverly with others, as I have said previously, to extract maximum value, not just from working very cleverly with colleagues across the BBC, but also with other organisations, other institutions, by partnering, by being entrepreneurial, by looking even across the Atlantic or, indeed, across Europe, working with other broadcasters. I am confident that we can make this money work really well to deliver an exciting proposition for audiences in Scotland. I think that we have an opportunity now that we have not had in the past, we have the really state, provided that we get the approval, to do something really quite significant to address the audience's expectations in Scotland. Audience expectations are high. You have already committed to an hour of news, and you have already said that there will be original drama. I have been having a look at your tariffs, the BBC's tariffs for drama. I was quite surprised to see that there is a different tariff expectation for drama and, indeed, all content between network and nations and regions. For example, drama for network can cost between £50,000 and £1,000 per hour, whereas you are allocated between £30,000 and £450 per hour for drama in nations and regions. That is reflected in entertainment and factual as well. What is the tariff going to be for this new channel? How much are you going to spend on drama? Is it going to be the nations and regions tariff or is it going to be the network tariff? If it is the national channel for Scotland? As I have just said, what I would rather look at is what we do in terms of exploiting what we have across the BBC in terms of resource. That will take working very differently with network colleagues, and what I am absolutely confident of is that I have full support. There is that, and then there is, as I said, working with other institutions, other public money and, indeed, working with the BBC worldwide to extend that funding envelope. As you rightly say, those sums are challenging. Scripted, comedy and drama are very expensive to produce, but I am confident through acquisition, through working with others and through experimental efforts on our part, endeavours, that we will be able to offer a wide range of content. If I could just press you on that, what tariff are you operating to in the new channel? Is it the nations and regions tariff or is it a network tariff? To be honest, we haven't identified what tariffs we are working on yet. As I said, I want to look at how we work with others to increase the value of the spend. Obviously, there will be other programmes for which, across a range, factual entertainment, we will have some set tariffs, but, again, we haven't gone into that kind of thing. It's just because it's quite important that there's huge differences in the higher expectations that this will be a national channel with high quality. If it's just a fraction of what you spend on national production, that's going to inevitably leave people disappointed. I understand what you're saying, but I think that the set against the backdrops that Anne has identified. I think that we are very fortunate to have this new investment coming into Scotland. It's the biggest investment in Scotland in nearly 20 years, so I intend to make the most of that. As I said, I am confident that we will be able to deliver something of real quality. Are you continuing to push for more money? As always, yes, of course. As Tony Hall explained, we have a funding settlement for the next three years, and that is a starting point. I know that I want to move on to other members, but I also wanted to ask about the network spend. Ms Bulfwood talked about it. It has increased this year, but it's quite variable. It was much lower last year and it was higher the year before. It's always much lower in terms of the amount of the licence fee money that was spent in Scotland that was raised here than Northern Ireland and Wales. How do you account for the rise in the network spend this year and the amount of money that was spent in Scotland? Is there any particular reason why it has risen this year? Thank you, convener. The expenditure in Scotland was £233 million across all services and platforms, which was an 11 per cent increase on 1516. It is primarily driven by a very significant increase in network TV investment in original commissions coming from Scotland. That was an increase of some £20 million. The growth reflects increased drama content with new titles such as The Replacement and One of Us transmitting alongside comedy including Two Doors Down and The Very, Very Successful Still Game. Those attracted audiences are something like £1.7 million in Scotland and £3.8 million across the UK. As a consequence, the value of qualifying BBC network TV content from Scotland relative to all qualifying BBC spend exceeded the 2016 target of 8.6 per cent, reaching 10.3 per cent. You mentioned drama. I am also convener of the cross-party group on culture in this Parliament. We had a session on television drama earlier this year and a number of producers that attended made the point that a lot of the drama that has been commissioned and that has been allocated to the network has been made by production companies outwith Scotland but it has been classified as a BBC Scotland drama. Quite often it is not representative of Scotland. It may be set here like something like Rillington Place was made in Scotland but I do not think that by any stretch of the imagination one could consider it Scottish. Indeed, most of the drama that is produced in the USA is a Scottish drama produced for the network. Really does not, in terms of the producers that we spoke to, not really drama emanating for Scotland that would tick the box in terms of representing the nation to the rest of the UK accurately? There are two separate questions in there. First of all, the qualifying definition and the qualifying definition is laid down under regulation. It applies to everybody and we meet that definition and there is a mix of... You meet the definition. A lot of people in the cultural sector look at that drama that you are producing for the network and saying that it is Scottish and they are saying that it is not. The production companies are not based here. It is not written here. It is not directed by people that are based here. Quite often the content is not even Scottish. You might have a Scottish backdrop. How can you say that it meets the definition? I can say that it meets the definition because the definition in terms of the location of the production company, the proportion of people who are working on the content where those people are based is a definition that is laid down by regulation. It has been in operation since 2000. It operates across all broadcasters in all parts of the UK and that definition is subject to challenge. If people have concerns about it, they can complain to Ofcom and where Ofcom investigated and have investigated in the past. Our definitions have been real and have been proved to be correct. The second point on portrayal is a great deal of drama that goes out on television, which is set in a place that is fictional. That is the nature of it. It is absolutely the case that there is a range of drama coming from Scotland, some of which absolutely fit into the portrayal of life in Scotland. Others of it are drama coming from Scotland that is made here. Even where there are, it is a more generic story. Using locations in cities and around the countryside here is something that resonates with audiences. Furthermore, when we look at the impact of television production here and there are reports from the cities of Glasgow and Edinburgh about the impact of that on the local economy, that is very real. It is showing an improvement. We are very pleased to see that. The screen sector leadership group, which was led by John McCormack, former head of BBC Scotland, and drew in from right across the screen sector in Scotland, was critical about the type of drama that had been made and the definition of what constituted a Scottish programme for network? We are very pleased to see the increase of spending in Scotland on the scale that I have described. We are very pleased to see the percentage of money that is raised in Scotland spending in Scotland increase. We expect to see that percentage increase as the investment in the new channel comes in. Furthermore, the investment in network production in Scotland increases again. We have a guaranteed increase of £20 million for the next couple of years, which will drive that percentage increase further. Against that backdrop, we have to remember that the vast majority of consumption of BBC services in Scotland is to a BBC network programme designed for the nation as a whole. We are a UK broadcaster and a lot of our money is spent on services that are provided to the whole of the nation, which are very much enjoyed by audiences here in Scotland. Whether that is the technology that supports iPlayer, the worldwide news gathering operation or, for example, sports rights, Scottish audiences are benefiting from all of that, none of that is counting as Scottish spend. I understand what you are saying there, but to echo what Anna said, it is really important that 70 per cent of the spend and 50 per cent of the production staff, these quotas really do have to be met, and that is happening in Scotland. Those are very important jobs for the industry, but it is absolutely our ambition to try and encourage Indigenous independent production companies or, indeed, drama producers. This year alone, we have just announced very recently the commission of two dramas to be produced this coming year. One is The Cry, which will be produced by a company called Synchronicity, which is a company based in Scotland, and the other is The Victim by STV. We are moving in that direction. What I think is important is that audiences are demanding quality drama on their screens, and I believe that that is what we are doing across the BBC. What is really important for me is that we are portraying Scotland in these dramas. Whether Shetland clique one of us, trust me, we are seeing Scotland on the screen in a way in this past year, and hopefully in the coming years, that we have not seen for some time. I look at the performance statement, the audiences statement and so on from off-com. Clearly, that is a thing that you will be thinking about in planning ahead, is how to meet and how to understand and respond to the requirements that are in there. Can I ask about a couple of those this morning? First of all, around the issue of portraying the diversity of the United Kingdom and its constituent nations and regions, I wonder what you understand that requirement to be in relation to where you are now and what further changes you might envisage being required to continue to meet that in the future. Perhaps if we could start with that diversity question, and I'll be very interested in your view. I think that just to continue to pick up on the convener's point, our drama strategy is certainly to have more drama that speaks off Scotland and to Scotland, and in that regard, we're doing a lot of training and a lot of investing with things like the writer's room, where in May we had 200 young writers from Scotland attending that event. To Mr MacDonald's point, the diversity of the UK is absolutely firmly not only within the charter but also in the off-com requirement, and we're absolutely welcome that challenge and welcome meeting that challenge, whether that's through drama or whether it's through programmes such as This Farming Life, for example, which I think we've had feedback, gives a very accurate portrayal of what it is to run a modern business in rural Scotland today. We're really pleased with the response to that. The success of that programme, which has not only been welcomed by audiences in Scotland but welcomed by audiences across the UK, means that we're likely to do more of those particular stories that speak off a place, diverse characters, diverse situations, and where the particular, if you like, becomes the universal. It's something that I'm particularly passionate about. I think it's at the heart of good storytelling. I'm struck by that and I agree that there's been some very strong programme making reflecting parts of Scotland that perhaps haven't been well reflected on television before, including the programme that you mentioned. I'm also interested in that point about networking some of those programmes and I wonder how far that means that there will be more networking of programmes made across the nations and regions, in other nations and regions of the UK, because I think that that would be a very welcome development if, indeed, This Farming Life has been welcomed outside Scotland. I think that that's a good sign and perhaps a sign that more of that should be done. In terms of the relationships between Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and we've talked of Steve Carson coming from BBC Northern Ireland, we have under the nations and regions a really close conversation where we're looking at absolutely what we're developing together, what we're doing individually, learning lessons from each other. I think that an example is, for example, that the social that we started in BBC Scotland will now have a manifestation in BBC Wales. That will possibly be wider across the BBC. There's an absolute welcome to take programmes from the nations to the network and show that to different parts of the country, very strong channel relationships across all the channels, and a really rich conversation going on on an absolutely regular basis between the channel commissioners and now all of our commissioning team. That's absolutely where we can do more, certainly, and we absolutely will. Just in Scotland as well, it's really important that we reflect the whole of Scotland back to audiences in Scotland. Kenny mentioned the importance of the social. That project in itself has featured more not just faces and voices from across Scotland, but content producers from across Scotland. It's been a really important development, and they've also been commissioned by BBC Three to make a version of the social for them, so they're very entrepreneurial as well. I'd also like to mention the importance of radio, portfolio services and how we reflect the realities of Scottish life across all portfolios. What we do out of Aberdeen is really important, and it continues to be massively important to me, that we reflect the length and breadth of the country, but I think particularly that production centre, which has just been commissioned to make a series of programmes or has made a series of programmes called Scotland from the Sky, building on the successes of landward, but also what we do on radio and what we do on online and what we do in news from the north-east. There's also a programme in Radio Scotland, our story, which I think is a really important offering. We need to build on the skillspaces that we have and to share those stories as widely as we possibly can, so that we are genuinely reflecting what is a very diverse nation. Thank you very much. Can I ask about another aspect of the performance statement, which is in relation to spending on programming across the four nations, including England, and the requirement that there should be broadly similar expenditure on programming in the four nations? I'd be very interested to know your understanding of what broadly means in that context and how you intend to meet that and deliver that going forward. In terms of the four nations, I think what we're looking at is where we want to move in terms of the creative endeavour to get the very best of content. One of the things that we're trying to do is to learn from each other across the nations. There's been a particularly good partnership with Northern Ireland's screen, for example, in Northern Ireland. That's something of a very close contact with the team in Northern Ireland. Something that we're looking at, which will inform Denalda, will be able to bring to the various discussions that we have with our partner, with all our partners in Scotland to see what worked well there so that we're able to, if you like, not reinvent a particular wheel but understand what worked and what didn't. Bringing that intelligence together across the four nations, and also within my current role from the regions of England, where there's been success, for example, in the north west, where there's been a city partnership with Manchester and Salford, there are important lessons that we can learn. I think that it's about setting up an absolute ambition to continually deliver more value, more representation as far as the audience is concerned, but having the constructive conversations and looking forward to doing that. I think that we already are working very hard with our colleagues in the nations and regions. Another great example of Scotland exporting some of its ideas and its talent, is that the comedy unit, one of our prolific independent production companies in Scotland, has just been commissioned to make a version of Scott's Squad for BBC Wales and BBC Northern Ireland and also looking at that. I think that it's important to mention that. We export as much as we import ideas and templates. When we met in February, one of the issues that I raised was the drama commissioner for Scotland role now. You were in the application process at that point. You were somewhat limited in what you were able to say about it, but just to very briefly follow that up before I go on to a point about radio, can you confirm that the drama commissioner for Scotland is in fact now a role based in Scotland for the majority of the working week? Gaynor Holmes, who is the commissioning executive for drama, is absolutely based in Scotland. Excellent. Thank you very much. On the point about radio, you just mentioned it. The network radio spend in Scotland has been declining year on year. The radio Scotland spend has fluctuated somewhat, but it is down this year compared to last, and the number of broadcasters is down about 6 per cent. What is your ambition for radio in Scotland? Is this part of a gradual slow decline as we move towards other platforms, or are you still committed to radio production? Absolutely, 100 per cent committed to radio production. I'm exceptionally proud of our network radio production teams from radio drama to the work that we do in features, to what we do in music, jazz, classical, what we do with our orchestra, the Scottish Symphony Orchestra. I am conscious that there are fluctuations in spend and commitment, but I am absolutely keeping an eye on that. In fact, where there can be just some alteration as a result of the mix of commissioning, that can affect the numbers, but I'm pleased to say that I think that these numbers are certainly going in the right directions for us, as I'm concerned, the last time I looked at them. I think that it is really important to say, as I said, that we continue to produce quality network programmes from Scotland, and in the last few weeks, for example, we've had CDs produced by our radio drama department, which was a flesh market close, which went out on Saturday afternoon on radio 4. Building on that, Ian Rankin has just written another five-part serial, which will go out again on radio 4. As I said, I'm also hugely proud of what our radio features teams do, everything from the Enlightenment to the science output that we continue to produce. Equally, as I said, music from here. I would like to see these numbers go up, I would like to see us do more for network radio, and I will be working with colleagues to try to ensure that that happens. Thank you. I've got a couple of questions to pick up on some of the themes others have raised. Firstly, I'm a huge fan of the Proclaimers, and I bought their album, This is the Story, 1987, one of my favourite albums, it's great. Therefore, I was very excited when the BBC made a documentary in Scotland celebrating the 30th anniversary, but I remember the time that it was only showing the BBC to Scotland, as opposed to being across all parts of the UK in the network. I'm slightly surprised by that because it's quite a big band. I was just wondering how you take those decisions, why that, for instance, was designated for BBC to Scotland and only Scotland, etc. As we've alluded before, a lot of those titles will find their way onto the network, possibly not at the exact same time, and I think that it was probably important for us to have the first window in that transmission. The Proclaimers is hugely important to us culturally, and we wanted to celebrate that anniversary, and I'm really glad that the programme appealed to you. It was, I think, one of our highest quality productions of this year, and I'm very proud of it. I think that it's really important that we continue to have this dialogue with our network colleagues, and we do that on a regular basis, and I am absolutely confident that that programme will have a network eating at some point, as well as the programme that we made about Billy Connolly, which went out round about the same time. I just do suspect that if it had been a 30th anniversary programme up in the beautiful south of some other band that had been across the whole network at the same time, so I was just trying to work out how all those decisions are taken, because I find it quite puzzling. Two other quick questions, firstly, in terms of Scottish spend. I take the point in response to the convener's questions that there's regulations, and anyone who wants to complain can go through Ofcom. That's quite convoluted. I'm just wondering what the BBC do to check that it's genuinely Scottish spend, and it's not companies who are given the commissions or base in Scotland, but then commission other companies elsewhere to supply the personnel and the skills. What do you actually do to check that it's the case? Across the whole of the UK, we check against the criteria for the base of the production company, the percentage of people we check line by line through the return, and ensure that that's the case. It's a well-established process. It's been running for many years. It covers quotas in terms of outside of London quotas, as well as national and region quotas. It's not a mechanic with lots and lots of room for manoeuvre in it. It's a regulatory process which we follow. I mean, it is the case that not only at this committee, but over the years, since those definitions were introduced, which I say was right back in 2002, from time to time, there's been debate about should they be changed, should they be interpreted differently. I think when I last spoke to the committee, my view was that it's inappropriate and unhelpful for individual broadcasters to start flexing them. The rules are the rules. They're rules for everybody. That's where they are. Ofcom has said that they're going to undertake a review of the definitions, have a consultation for that process and we'll all have an opportunity to contribute to that. If there are changes, of course, we'll apply them when they come through. Okay, thank you. I'm sure that's something that the committee can look at. My final question falls on from Lewis McDonald's deputy convener's question about diversity within Scotland and the UK. I read that you're going to employ 80 new news journalists in Scotland, so it's just to ask where they'll be based and how that decision will be taken. I think of my own constituency Murray, for instance, and STV of a journalist based in my constituency. There's no BBC journalist. I just wondered how you're going to reflect rural issues and diversity within Scotland in terms of where they're located. I think that there is the opportunity now to recruit from across Scotland. Clearly, our news headquarters will continue to be in Glasgow, but it's certainly an ambition of mine that we spread the number of journalists that we have across the country so that we have optimum news gathering potential to, as you say, cover rural issues from different parts of the country and indeed other issues. We've also invested with the Scottish Newspapers Society and, in conjunction with our colleagues across the BBC, in 20 new local journalists who will work within local newspapers, that recruitment for those will begin quite soon, so hopefully there will be a spread of those positions across the country. We're already working with the Scottish Newspapers Society to achieve that, so that's over and above the 80 posts that we've announced that we will be recruiting next year. Can I just ask on that issue about costs? In the accounts, there's a figure of 36 million for distribution, which has not appeared in previous years. It appeared in 16, 17, but it didn't appear in previous years. Can you tell me what it is and why it hasn't appeared in previous years' accounts? What it relates to is the proportion of costs dealing with transmission and with DTT digital transmission around the regions and nations of the UK. That cost has always been there in the interests of transparency. We've simply called it out and made it more transparent in the document in 16, 17, which I hope is helpful. I just had one question relating to the new channel, and it was just about the fact that it's going to be available throughout Scotland in SD rather than HD, and it was just to try and understand why that is. The decisions that were taken and confirmed through the planning stage were that with limited resources, the priority was to invest in content rather than distribution. There isn't an available HD slot for it. It's an expensive proposition to buy that up, because you can't run it through the same transmission network as standard definition. You have to have a separate parallel one. It isn't always the case that people turn to HD even when it's there for them. In any event, we're in a technology transition, and all material will be available via iPlayer on HD. I understand that, in order to achieve it via iPlayer, you have to have access to good quality broadband, so we have to keep an eye on that, and that will come up over time. It's a straightforward priority decision around cost. Our view was that, in the early stages of the channel, we want to prioritise spend on content rather than distribution where there's a good alternative. Is that something that can be looked at and changed further down the line as this develops? Potentially it could be, but it would need to be looked at at the build-up of availability of HD over iPlayer and access to that, which is a much cheaper way of providing that format out to audiences and much more efficient. I also had a couple of questions relating to the gender pay gap. I see from some of the information there that we see what the gender pay gap at the BBC currently is. How do you tend to address that? We published the gender pay gap report a few weeks ago. That showed a gender pay gap across the whole of the BBC of 9.3 per cent. That compares to a national rate as indicated by the Government of around 18. The gender pay gap report is, I hope, helpful in explaining what the gender pay gap is, which is the average pay of all men to average pay of all women across the organisation, and it illustrates that the vast majority of that gap in the BBC is coming through through mix of staff at different levels. Broadly, whilst we are quite close in terms of mix of genders, 48, 52, between women and men in the BBC, we have a higher proportion of men than women in higher paid jobs, either because of their seniority or because there is a concentration of men in parts of the organisation where salaries tend to be higher—for example, software engineering, where we have more men than women. The way to address that—we have been working on it speaking about it for some time—is to encourage more women to develop and come through into more senior roles and to try to close those gaps in staff roles where we have less women than ideally we would like. It is an important aspect of our overall diversity programme. Indeed, in our gender pay report, we voluntarily disclosed our pay gap on BME, which is very low and negligible, but that is not any cause for complacency because, with ethnicity, we also know that we need to do more to bring on people into senior roles and improve the diversity of our senior leadership group. I see another report from Offcom about diversity and equal opportunities in television, which highlights the fact that the BBC uses the fourth out of five broadcasters on representation of women and the third out of the five broadcasters on representation of senior women. You talk about trying to encourage more women to come through today's senior roles. What specifically are you doing to tackle that? What are other channels doing that is not happening at the BBC? The position at the BBC is that our senior leadership mix is 42 per cent women to 58, which is not cause for complacency. We would like it to be 50-50. We run a number of leadership development programmes to encourage women to come through. When the director general spoke in July and again in September, we talked about a number of additional things that we are going to do to try to improve that even further. One is to ensure that we don't have single sex interview panels, which will be a good discipline to have across the whole organisation building on best practice. The other is to look again at our overall practice for attracting, recruiting and selecting the best talent and then moving them on through. Like many organisations, we still use traditional interview boards a lot. They don't suit everybody. There are other techniques that we can add into that. It is a very high priority. We continue to do it. When we look at the most senior roles, the highest-paid people, we see a lot of progress over the last three years. The promotions into that group have been 60 per cent women or ethnically diverse. Rachel Hamilton Thank you and good morning. I am all right in saying that you are also running a separate review, which is about undertaking into the BBC's approach to honour presenters and editors and correspondents. Do you think that the review will enable a more representative pool of talent to serve BBC audiences? There are three things that we have been doing—the gender pay report that I spoke about. Alongside that, we also published our equal pay audit for graded staff. That concluded that we did not have a systematic problem in terms of gender bias, although there is more that we can do to improve transparency. We decided that we needed to look at honour talent differently and take a longer time over it because the contractual arrangements and patterns of work are different and the frameworks for deciding what people are paid and why and how are different. We are running that work now and that still continues. That is really about who you have got and what you are paying them. The most senior talent list published in July is about a third of that list is women. We are not happy with that. We want that to be much closer to 50 per cent. That will take a range of actions over time to refresh the talent line-ups, to bring people on, to take opportunities in the schedule. The director general and the board are all committed to trying to achieve that by 2020. We will take every opportunity as it comes up, but it requires a whole series of different steps to be taken to balance that representation on there in the most senior roles. Obviously, the national film and TV school is going to be delivered next April at Pacific Key. I wondered how you are going to meet the aim to enhance the quality and diversity in the screen sector. How will you work to address the gaps in existing skills provision? I will let you answer those two and then I have two more short questions. We were delighted to be able to announce that the national film and television school is to open in Scotland in hopefully January 2018 with a view to the first cohort of students enrolling from April next year. As part of the ambition and to address your question about diversity, diversity and inclusion are key priorities and there is a joint aspiration that a third of all the places in the first two years will be fully funded scholarship places. The Scottish Government and the BBC are contributing to a bursary fund to meet scholarship costs and ensure that students are drawn from a broad range of backgrounds. That is not only important just in the context of the national film and television school, it is also very important for us across the BBC and in BBC Scotland. We have been running an apprenticeship scheme, which is now into its sixth year, and we also have new ministry and e-ships with the new recruitment in terms of news. We would absolutely want to ensure that we were extending the invitation to apply for these jobs to involve as much diversity and inclusion of all the groups that you identify as we possibly can. The other question that I asked was, do you think that this is going to address the existing skills gap that you possibly have? I think that all of these initiatives and working cleverly with not just the national film and television school but other HE and FE institutions is going to be very important in terms of ensuring that we do have the right skills mix and that that is a priority for us. You have actually asked my last question, so I will just ask you one more question. How do you encourage young talent to work in screen and television? You mentioned a blend of learning approaches, for example the modern apprenticeships and the further education and the higher education. How do you encourage children from Scotland or school leavers to come into the media and the screen sector? I guess that we are working with schools and colleges on a weekly basis, a daily basis in some cases. Even some of the really important work that we do through our learning initiatives I think hopefully exposes young children even in the context of being part of programme making. We mentioned the social early on. I think that we need to do more of that. We need to make the jobs and the BBC more attractive to those who perhaps had thought that they were suitable to apply. That is a really important piece of work that we are engaging in currently with schools, colleges and universities. Thank you, Jackson Carlaw. Thank you, convener. Good morning. Can I stay straight away? I am still a huge fan of the BBC. I have a couple of questions from constituents. The first of them is that they commend Gary Robertson and the whole GMS team, who are I think the flagship current affairs team in Scotland. I have been asked how their salaries stand in comparison with the rather pimpered personalities on the BBC radio for today programme who have all rather publicly been engaging in a spat about how they are not paid enough just on web saying that he has paid a fraction of what Nick Robinson has paid and everybody else. How are the BBC Scotland team, who managed to perform such a terrific service representing current affairs in Scotland, paid by comparison? Can I commend them on their discretion? I suppose that, as you have identified, there are different markets. There is a local market and there is a network market and there are different budgets and sizes of budget for network programmes. It is within that context that we pay our on-air talent, but I absolutely agree with you. I think that they do a fantastic job and we value them hugely, and I hope that they are remunerated fairly. If they are not, my door is always open. That is good to know. 900,000 pounds paid to Mr Humphries and Mr Robinson I am sure could be much better deployed. Since we last met you, those lovely swimming elephants have been consigned to the archives and you have a whole new series of screen identities. Now, BBC Oneness—I would quite like to know what that is, BBC Oneness, because a number of people have asked me—but can you tell me how many of the new corporate identity links are Scottish-based? How are they determined in terms of the reflection of Scottish life, which is what I understand those identities to be? What are they? So, there are a number. I would have to go back and have a look at exactly how many, but we can certainly get that information to you. As with all our items, we change them from time to time. Sometimes they appeal to people, sometimes they don't. I think that what happened with the most recent BBC Oneness—maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong—is that they've evolved over time and they've increased the amount of representation from around the country of the groups that are featured within the identity links. I think that we've enjoyed a soft launch to begin with and I think that's ramped up a bit. I think that we do see more representation from across the UK. It would be nice if it's possible to find out subsequently how it's determined what they are and what the Scottish ones are and what percentage of them represent the network coverage. In its own subliminal way, it creates a national impression of Scottish life. I'd just be interested to know how it's been assessed, what they are and what they actually do. I apologise, convener, if this question came up earlier. It is about the new channel. I noticed that there was a public consultation over a period of time. You will have had the conclusions of that. I note that those will form the basis of the representation that's made to OFCOM. I just want to know that there's been nothing in the public consultation that has caused you to substantially alter the intention or direction of the ambition for the new channel and that, as matters stand, because I think that many people I've met are quite excited about the prospect of it, that it largely remains intact as you originally envisaged. It largely does remain intact. Obviously, we have responded to some of the consultation and that has been included in the public interest test as submitted to the unity board of the BBC just over a week ago. That has gone through that process now and it will go on to OFCOM in the middle of November. Was there anything in the consultation that led you to adjust or alter anything in any significant or particular way? I can't share that with you today because at the moment, the document of the public interest test remains confidential until such time as we hand it on to OFCOM and then it will be published. Are you able to say without saying the detail of what any change might have been whether there is anything that is different in the representation that will go forward? I do not believe that it is significant. Did you have a supplementary to that, Ross Creer? It's not a separate point. I'm going to have to get Mr McMillan in first, Stuart McMillan. Mr McKinnon, earlier on, you spoke about the 20 local journalists with the newspapers. I was made aware of that by my local paper, The Government of Telegraph. Can you provide a bit more information about that, please? This was part of an overall BBC local democracy initiative where, maybe Kenny could say a bit more about it. The BBC decided that in order to extend our ability to cover local politics, local government, we would work in collaboration with local newspapers to not only appoint new journalists, which the BBC will fund, and those journalists will work with the local newspapers, but also to provide what we are calling a news hub from which newspapers will be free to access content post-transmission. It is very much an effort on the part of the BBC to enhance our local democracy provision, but also to work with local newspapers where they want to work with us to achieve that aim. Is there anything you wish to add, Kenny? There is a particular focus on the reportage of, if you like, local government and local government institutions that went to the base of this. I think that there is a common agreement with the newspaper industry that we would like to, where we could, support improving that. Overall, the BBC has committed to shoulder the cost of these trainees who will be based in the newspapers, but the content would be available not only to the newspapers but to the BBC as well. Its main focus is about local government. The broad base is the initial thinking of that, but in different regions and in different areas it would have the discretion to apply that, but that is certainly the intention to improve the coverage in that regard. That certainly sounds like a positive development, because, if I may say, this is not just about yourselves but others as well. There is a world in urban Scotland that is outside of Glasgow and Edinburgh, and there are a lot of excellent things that take place outside of Glasgow and Edinburgh. Sometimes, when you watch BBC Scotland and STV, there seems to be a Glasgow and Edinburgh or a city's focus, as compared to some of the good stories that take place in my area—Potentially North Ayrshire, Western Bardenshire and elsewhere. I could not agree more. I absolutely agree with that. I think that there are fantastic stories that sometimes we do not get, but what I think that we have now is an opportunity with the new investment and, indeed, with the new user to do just as you describe. Thank you for that. I have got one other question. Just regarding the BBC Alba, certainly it has received less support in the BBC than any other channel. When can we actually expect to see some improvement from the BBC in terms of the funding of BBC Alba? I think that nobody will be surprised to hear that I am hugely committed to BBC Alba. I am very proud of what BBC Alba has achieved, and I know that Kenny is as well. In fact, I know that Ann is as well. We do have to prioritise sometimes in terms of what we fund. I think that what we have managed to achieve in partnership with MG Alba has been fantastic over the years. I am not complacent about that. I think that we need to address the number of repeats, and we are working very hard with MG Alba. We have started a piece of work to look at the moment at the new investment, how we can make it work harder so that we can deliver more origination. We are absolutely committed to delivering weekend news. Since taking on the post of director, I have combined our two news teams, our Gaelic teams and our English language teams. I think that what we will get will be a strengthened offer, as a result of the new investment, but also as a result of greater collaboration. I have also undertaken a major restructure of BBC Scotland partly because of our new charter commitments to split commissioning from production. Within that, there are huge opportunities in working in a multi-platform, multi-channel way to achieve a read across for BBC Alba that will be significant. There has been this consistent disparity in funding for BBC Alba, in comparison to Welsh TV. That is a point that has been raised in this committee and in other committees before. There is a herosteam building up in terms of when will that be addressed and when will there be the parity of funding between the two. In terms of the provision of Welsh language broadcasting, the history is very different from BBC Alba and the S4C and also Radio Coomery in terms of the commitment. You are absolutely right in drawing attention to the disparity in funding, if you like, and that is certainly historic. What we have tried to do is to approach BBC Alba in a different way. If you like, it is a channel that is for Gaelic speakers but is very inclusive of the whole of Scotland in the way that the programmes are welcoming to all of Scotland. I am extremely proud of what the channel has achieved and the impact that it has made in Scotland, whether that be through programmes such as Bannon, for example, which was made in Skye, or some of the commemoration of the First World War, where individual stories through Gaelic poetry have been archived and made available online. Our total funding over Radio and the Gael and into television from the BBC and online is of the order of Kirchaf, £15 million or thereabouts in terms of the totality. It is a really tough licence fee settlement that we have had. The Deputy Director General outlined exactly where we are in the organisation, but what we are determined to do is to be absolutely innovative in supporting BBC Alba and where we have any initiative that spans BBC to ensure that BBC Alba can participate in that. The commemoration of the First World War was a very good example of that, where there was funding allocated to BBC Alba just as part of the overall provision. Into where we are buying sports rights, we are going to be innovative in just looking at buying collective sports rights. However, as Donalda says in the commissioning split, Margaret Mary Murray and Steve Carson, the multi-genre commissioner, will work very closely together. There will be transparency about the strategies that they are trying to achieve. We have built a good dialogue with M.G. Alba, where we are absolutely clear as to what we want to deliver. Getting to parity, which is what you are asking about with S4C, in the next three years, the director general said when he gave evidence previously that we have a three-year settlement, if you like, of the budget. We are not going to get in that three-year period to parity with S4C, and that is largely because of the different histories and approaches, but also the different ambitions that we have in how we want to bring the channel to the people of Scotland. I have a final question. Regarding the new channel and BBC Alba, do you see opportunities for BBC Alba to increase content with the new channel and to have some increasing commissioning opportunities? Absolutely. As Kenny Cymru said, that multi-platform commissioning team will work very closely together. It is really important that, not only do we work together but that we learn from what BBC Alba has done, and I certainly know that Margaret Mary and Steve are in regular conversation. It is really important that the big sister channel remains distinctive, that what is on offer there is not compromised and that we will make every effort to ensure that that does not happen. Equally, where we can showcase and where possible, we would want to share content. If it goes out first on BBC Alba, we might want to have a window of transmission where we can join forces in sport, live events and music. We should absolutely do that, notwithstanding that we should absolutely make every effort to ensure that the distinctiveness of each offering is there. Ross Greer, do you still want to come back in? Yes, if there is time. One of your answers on the new channel reminded me that you have a point going back to my question around radio. There was the temporary radio station in the lead-up to St Andrew's Day, which was, from my understanding, very successful. Does the success of that indicate that there is the scope for a potential permanent Scottish station—their Scottish music station? As I have said previously, I will continue to emphasise the importance of radio to me in Scotland and that ambition to deliver additional radio service to Scotland absolutely remains on the table. The focus of our attention has to be on getting the linear channel off the ground next year, but I have not lost sight of that and it remains an ambition. Also, as technology improves, as opportunity improves, when we get deeper into personalisation, the potential to deliver bespoke services for people in radio is much greater. I even look at the way my 25-year-old is consuming radio at the moment. She consumes radio a lot on the move and podcasting is something that we really need to understand better and probably get better at doing. I am considering a number of initiatives to ensure that that happens. In particular, in relation to the new services, what can we do in the read-across of the new content that we create that could live on radio in a different form? Ken Macquarie, in response to Stuart McMillan's question, talked about the lack of parity with the Welsh language channel. You spoke about the historical reasons for that. If you look right across the comparison between Northern Ireland and Wales, even with the increased amount of licence fee spent in Scotland at 72 per cent, we are still way behind Wales and Northern Ireland, who are almost reaching 100 per cent. I know that we touched on that at the beginning, but I do not really think that we have satisfactory answers. I can just repeat that the Screen Sector Leadership Group led by John McCormick said that you should have a strategy in place over five years to tell us how you are going to get to 100 per cent. Would you like to have another stab at that question and explain why Ireland and Wales are getting to almost 100 per cent in Scotland's not? First of all, as we have said, we have put in place a number of measures. We have increased the network spend. We have delivered 10.3 per cent of network in the year to come by. We have a three-year budget where we will absolutely maintain that and increase that over a period of time. Wales has a particular specialism in regard to the supply of continuing drama, particularly around growth lock, where the high value productions tend to be the bulk of the difference in the spend between Scotland and Wales. That is in place. We are really proud of what is coming out of BBC Wales with programmes like Sherlock and Doctor Who. There are high-cost productions that contribute a tremendous amount not only to Wales but to audiences across the whole of the UK. In Scotland, what we want is to have the most sustainable but vibrant economy that we can. We have increased the figures. We do not have a limit to our ambition but nor are we setting. We must get to that spend. What we want to do is to get the best possible content but to make sure that we have on the ground a competitive environment in Scotland where we are delivering the very best programmes. I am confident that that will come through. We will get to the spend in relation to the licence fee. I note John McCormack's comment on that. At the moment, we have a three-year plan and we are working within that envelope. We have stressed, for example, the tightness of the financial envelope and the outset that we are working within under the current settlement. The deputy director general outlined that fully in the opening statement. That is the situation that we are in. We are ambitious to turn the amount of content into sustainable businesses in Scotland, delivering great stories that represent Scotland from across the UK. Clearly, if we get more drama on air, drama is the biggest driver of spend, much more than factual or some of the other programming, that will begin to affect that. We want to see how the channel strategy works out. We have invested heavily in the channel. Wales does not have a channel. Scotland does have a channel from 2018. We are really ambitious and positive as to how that will change the environment in Scotland. We want to give that a chance to succeed. I note that we were represented on that group from BBC Scotland. I absolutely understand that. In the screen sector, we were represented. It is not just Mr McCormack as a respected figure that he is. The whole of the screen sector was represented on that group. Absolutely. We looked closely at the report and noted their commitment, their ask over five years, for the moment that we are in a three-year journey as far as the BBC is concerned. On the representative thing, I have just been looking again at the public purpose that is outlined by OFCOM for the nations and regions. It says that Scotland or nations and regions must be accurately represented. The second day of the nations and regions' public purposes is to support the creative industries in the nations and regions. If I could just re-emphasise the points that we made earlier about drama and even what Jackson Carlaw was getting at in the IDENCE, the country has to be accurately represented on the network. You have an obligation to support the creative industries in the nations and regions. I personally found it quite concerning that Ms Bulford did not seem to think that there was a problem, which everyone in the screen sector has talked about in terms of the way that drama is produced and commissioned and that it is not necessarily using production facilities from Scotland? We have spoken about the definitions and the confidence that we have in the way in which they are applied. Just to go back, when I last appeared here, when the director general appeared, we have explained that we are very conscious of the need to do more in Scotland to improve engagement with Scottish audiences. That is why we have done two things. We have set aside the significant investment in the new channel and also we have made a very substantial commitment to sustain and grow investment from the network into Scotland. There is a real opportunity there to not only increase the level of network spend but to sustain it and to grow the sort of content that is going to appeal most to Scottish audiences in the way that you outline, convener. There are examples of things that would not qualify in the spend, which will represent Scotland to a very large constituency. For example, the European Championships next year, based between Glasgow and Berlin, we are investing heavily in that. We are already working with Europe to ensure that those championships are shown, and Glasgow will be shown across a whole range of different European countries. That would not qualify, but it is certainly going to be investment. Not all of the investment is absolutely captured, but Scotland, I am sure, will enjoy enormously seeing one of its cities twinning with Berlin in those games. It is a fairly complex equation, as far as that is concerned, just so that not all of it is caught by the definition, but there is clearly value to audiences in that sort of spending. I am sure that it will be very enjoyable, but I am just reflecting what the entire screen sector in Scotland is telling us. Thank you very much. I think I will call the meeting to a close. We will now go into private session.