 in the language of Brazil or host country, although I would like to mention that given the composition of this floor, the rest of the discussion will be carried out both in Portuguese and in Spanish as most of our panel members are able to speak these two languages and they are the native languages of Latin America. I would also like to mention that this session has simultaneous translation in English, Portuguese and Spanish broadcasts live through top link and the Agencia Efe. I would like to offer you more information about the Partnering Against Corruption Initiative, that has become a leading voice on anti-corruption and transparency globally with a focus on a relevant way on the Global Agency for Transparency. Yesterday Pachi launched a novel platform based on technology. Having said that, I would also like to offer you more information on the debate that we are holding this morning. This debate will extend for 60 minutes. We have to conclude precisely at 10 in the morning. Once again the press coverage is open. I will initially begin with a presentation of the panel members. They will make their first interventions that should not last more than three or four minutes. And suing this, we will be able to exchange comments among the panel members. You yourselves can ask the questions. We do have the possibility of interrupting something, but as a moderator, I will also be entitled to ask you questions. At the end, we will have 20 minutes for the audience to ask questions to our guests. And for this, we would like to request that when asking a question, you explain who you are and that you pose a very brief question so that the greater number of people can participate. Once again, we truly would not like to listen to speeches only questions. Thank you very much, therefore. I am going to introduce each of our panel members. And we have analysts, jurists, experts, authorities, very relevant authorities. At the last minute, we had somebody who was unable to come because of a problem of transportation. I am referring to Carmen Lucia Tunes-Hoscha, the president of the Supreme Court of Brazil. To my right, we have the president of Transparency International, Denise Rubio. Then we have the president of Microsoft in Brazil, in front of me, the minister of justice of Brazil, Torquato Jardim. And finally, in front of me as well, Denise Dresset, representative of the Technological Institute of Mexico, the topic of discussion, I think you are very familiar with it, refers to corruption in Latin America. This has a great deal of resonance, as we have had many cases in the last few months. This is a chronic disease that does not allow for the development of our country. The corruption index perception, the index of transparency international, includes 13 countries as being the worst classified in the world. These countries, from worst to better, are Venezuela, Haiti, Nicaragua, Guatemala, the Dominican Republic, Paraguay, Mexico, Honduras, Ecuador, El Salvador, Bolivia, Peru, and Panama. Only Uruguay and Chile, along with Argentina, with a better human development index, are part of the 25 that have been better ranked above some European countries such as Spain and Portugal. Four presidents of Latin America presently are in jail. Two of them are waiting for extradition to the United States, where another has been released under parole, and others are being investigated in their respective countries. Corruption in Latin America affects more than a dozen heads of state, such as the presidents of Guatemala, the Peruvian president, and President Sacao, who are all in jail. President Toledo is in freedom in California. President Martinelli is in the United States awaiting extradition and undergoing a process of investigation. We have Cristina Fernández de Crisnet and the president of Salvador, Mauricio Fusnet, for crimes. We also have the president of Honduras, who is awaiting sentence in Brazil, and the president of Brazil once again, who has been sentenced to 12 years of jail. Some cases such as Odebrecht have extended throughout the continent, brutally impacting it Peru, Panama, Colombia, Mexico, and of course in Brazil. This is the context. This is the panorama. And based on this, we would like to launch a question to all of our panel members, which are the factors beyond signaling concrete cases that can help us break with a cycle of corruption in Latin America while we are able to promote advances in economic and social stability. We will now give the floor to our panel members. We will begin from the right with the president of Transparency International, Delia Ferreira Rubio, born in Argentina, a consultant on topics that refer to the combat against corruption and transparency. She has worked in NGOs and projects that foster a better accountability in financial campaigns, the funding of parties. Presently she is the president of Transparency International and an author of several books on public ethics, corruption, funding, and so on and so forth. Transparency International is the most important NGO internationally that is combating corruption. Delia, the question is, is there a solution to corruption in Latin America? Thank you, Antonio. It is a pleasure to be here. I do believe that we can move forward. You have recounted the effects of the action of justice. The first thing we have to do is break with a cycle of impunity. This has begun in several countries, in some through the work of champions, whether judges or prosecutors. And in other countries, agencies have acted with international protection, such as CC in Guatemala, Masi in Honduras in other countries. It is a same justice that for many years was dormant and has now reacted. The key point to break with corruption and to send a key message to corrupt people is to ensure that this trend that we witness will become sustainable. We have to work on the institutionalization, on the promotion of the rule of law, the independence of our judiciary and the public prosecutors. The second path of work would be the prevention of corruption. We have access to information, collaboration in technology so that it will become more accessible. We have information on public hiring, big data to take reasonable public decisions. And all of this should be centralized. We should have a partnership between the private sector, civil society and governments. And in terms of prevention, I would like to point out two core areas. The work in the region referring to conflicts of interest in several of our countries. Human parties from the center right come to government. Many people from the private sector became part of the public sector causing serious conflicts of interest. Public authority should be attentive to these conflicts before they become a window of opportunity to corruption. And the second core issue that we have been fighting with for years is the funding of politics. Odebrecht has shown that this is the door of entry to corruption. This funding is never neutral. It represents the procurement of favors and subsequent commitment. The third topic, and this has been a trend in the region, is social mobilization. Mobilization on the streets stating we are tired of corruption. We no longer want corrupt people. And this has helped to having justice become more active. I believe that civil society will have to find a channel for what we call post-indignation. People cannot remain on the streets in the Dominican Republic. The manifestations have been the longest, perhaps because Odebrecht had their headquarters to manage international kickoffs. What we have to do is channel this social energy that says, let's bring a stop to corruption and create more practical channels for participation. Technology, of course, can be of help and social networks will be important. And in the long term, we have to work on recreating a social consensus, see what is correct, what is not, and to issue a clear message, that statement that they rob, but they do things, and the private sector decides that this is the way of doing business. Therefore, I will become involved in a case of corruption. If these are the messages that we're transmitting, we will never end with corruption. We have to review what society understands as being acceptable, what is unacceptable. We have to work based on values, education and examples, and this is long-term work because it means changing the culture. Delia, thank you very much for your clarity in your statement and the points that you wanted to underscore and for the way that you have used your time. We're going to go from right to left. Our next panel member is Paula Belisa, the president of Microsoft in Brazil. She is the first woman to head Microsoft in Brazil since 2015. She is trained in computing. She did her post-graduation in marketing. She began to work in Whirlpool where she worked for seven years. She was a product manager in Telefonica before joining Microsoft. After long years at Microsoft, she became an executive in face-back and country manager for Apple. She worked for two years until she received the invitation to return to the company founded by Bill Gates in the ranking of Microsoft branches. Brazil stands out for having the Transparency Center at Brasilia, one of the four most important centers throughout the world. Paula, please recall that the question is if it is possible to break with a cycle of corruption in Latin and how technology can help us to combat corruption. Good morning to all of you. It is a pleasure to be here. I would like to greet Minister Torquato and the other panel members. It is a pleasure for Microsoft to take part in this debate and to speak about the contribution of technology as corruption. As we mentioned, corruption is something that is having an enormous impact on Latin America. And it demands a great deal of transparency on the streets and through social networks. And we are convinced that technology will be able to help us break with this cycle of corruption. At Microsoft, our mission is to empower people to do more with technology and corruption comes against and clashes with this belief. Corruption does not allow people to have access to opportunities. It impedes equality. It breaks with the trust of companies and democracy. I would like to bring you a vision of how technology can contribute towards strengthening controls, but not only control. Countries such as ours, Brazil, will run that race of bureaucracy if we increase our control. We also need to increase the expeditiousness and transparency of these processes. And technology can do this, offering control and ensuring better quality services to citizens. The four ways in which I would like to present this outlook of how technology can contribute is the following. In the first case, in the case of Brazil, and I cannot speak on behalf of other countries of Latin America, we have the law of access to information since 2012. Public agencies are forced to offer access to information to any person that requests this. Now, this data is accessible at present, but few of this information is simple to be used by the citizens. And if this becomes more open, if it allows any entity to use this through the use of technology applications or access platforms, this could be transformed into a quality service for the citizens. This is an enormous opportunity that hasn't been exploited. That's the first issue. The second is the digital identification. We in Latin America have powers to integrate the digital information of citizens. Why is it important? Why blockchain, for instance, can help in this? Because they allow the trackability of citizens helping to fight against fraud. If the citizen is well authenticated, that's a good control to know about the financial activities of civil responsibilities. Again, the technology that is blockchain is also... For e-mail, we know that in the Brazilian case, there are pilots to integrate all the different identification forms for citizens, different ways of identity as we have in Brazil. So this is a way of ensuring a safe identification that would help to fight against fraud and to recognize the citizen. The third part that I would like to point out is the public tenders. We call intelligent tenders. Nowadays, technology, as Dalia commented, there is a technology that allows that the artificial intelligence could anticipate certain acts or certain actions considered illegal in the public tenders so as to prevent this. Before an illicit act may happen in any purchase process, these algorithms may identify fraud like orienting certain institutions. These algorithms exist. The technology is highly available. It's just a matter of putting it in practice. Once again, talking about blockchain, I was talking about the identification of each of the individuals. This technology could also help us to track the financial activities of government and other institutions in the transactions with the private initiative. So blockchain allows to track the transactions. It's impossible to be altered. It's registered and therefore there is a fidelity as to control and to know where each of the resources went on any procurement of any entity. And as to the partnering against corruption initiative. If I'm not mistaken, there is a survey identifying the areas that are more probable for corruption. The government transactions, the lack of transparency as to financial crime, campaign financing, and the safety and privacy of information and everything that has to do with ethics and culture, as Ms. Delia was referring. And these technologies may also contribute as to these three areas. Yes, thank you, Paula. It's very interesting. But besides your contribution as to the issue of culture and social mobilization, we have data that we have to take into account as to the use of the blockchain technology that is not well known yet, but it offers enormous possibilities where it shows us the way of controlling activities in every field. So we are going to start now with our third member of the panelist, Denise Dresser. It's a political analyst from Mexico here in Marraite and also Denise, writer and activist since she's a professor of political science in the Mexico Institute. And he has worked in international relations in Colegio de Mexico and has a doctorate in Princeton University. She writes in the magazine Professor and also has published different newspapers in Los Angeles Times, for instance, and New York Times. She's a journalist, writer, and she has won the journalism prize with an open letter to Carlos Slim. The Forbes magazine has called her one of the 50 most powerful women in Mexico, one of the most influencing women. She has received the L'Agent d'honneur in France due to the defense of human rights and fight for democracy. So Denise, you have the floor, please. I come from a country that is in the list of the 10 most corrupt countries. And I bring with me the experience of a place with serious difficulties to fight against corruption. And this is the roadmap of a place that I know very well. The corruption naturally occurs when there is a collusion between the public sector and the private sector and a social difference. What is necessary to Mexico is the only country that has been affected by Odebrecht, where there's not only one addicted. It has to do with institutional architecture to fight against corruption. You need very good promoters or prosecutors. She has to be autonomous from the political power and not to be subjugated to political interests. Another factor that's important is the absolute transparency as to public expense because what we see in Mexico is how even in the democratic era parties, political parties, find loopholes in laws to channel funds in a legal way using a certain assigned budget. So a scrutiny of public expense. An involvement, a very clear involvement of civil society because here the dilemma is how you make the political classes that have benefited with corruption to fight against it if it goes against their own interest and this comes or this incentives for change come from the mobilization from the civil society. And they must state their concrete plans to have these institutional reforms. We have received proposals of the national anti-corruption system and of the prosecution that acts independently and also to name the person at key posts done through an involvement of the population because the creation of new institutions to fight against corruption may become just a simulation and the new institutions with old elements. So as Delia was saying, I believe the population must be educated about what is corruption and what is not corrupted. As Daniel was commented in his famous book, A Political Order in Changing Societies, in these transition moments there is an enormous social confusion as what is right and what is not right because what used to be valid is not anymore. So we have to create new social standards for the behavior of the citizens in this transition context. I believe it's essential to reduce the public finance or funding to political parties because this is an open channel so that the parties just flood the political system with money. And this, of course, is a very good path to corruption. This is essential then to strengthen independent controls because from there we have investigations in depth. For instance, in Mexico, it is a very dangerous place to be a newspaper because of the relations about corruption. So we must protect newspaper professionals. We have to convince the private sector that to fight against corruption is something that is beneficial for them even though they have benefited it from it due to this collusion between the different environments. They must understand that their part in the pie in a transparent system, their part may be smaller but the pie will be bigger and for everybody. The corruption eats 9% of the GDP in Mexico so if we will start to use that percentage in corruption, maybe the private sector would have incentives to participate in the crusades against corruption knowing that with transparent rules and with a leveled terrain, it would have a better result. And then the best way to fight against corruption and I believe is the earth. You have to move out of power the corrupted politicians. You have to cut the bomb out. Very clear your presentation and if we still keep the corrupted politicians in power, we are lost. So I believe that to take them out of the politics is something essential. So now we are going to hear to Torquato Jardim, the Minister of Justice in Brazil and we thank him for his being with us here and he has arrived very early and we have him here with us now. Professor Torquato Jardim is a constitutional right professor in the University of Brasilia in the United States. He also graduated in the University of Michigan. He has been an advisor in the trade and industry ministries, general secretary to the presidency of the Electoral Supreme Court and he has worked in the technical commission, international technical commission and also he has been a law advisor of the planning secretary of the presidency of the republic. He has been a minister for transparency, regulation in the general controlling system of the government. Being a minister for transparency, he believed that in the case of Brazil only with a very strong presence of civil society we can end with corruption. What do you think then, minister? What can we do to break this corruption cycle? Good morning. It's nice to find our friends, Mrs. Rubio Daniel Sobaich who is hiding there. I agree with everything that has been said. I will refer to another point of view that has to do with the political advocacy for public positions. Maybe from this public positions I want to share your opinion. For instance, the concept of structural corruption, public and private sector. The public sector has a size that is excessive while the Brazilian state has such enormous size there will be corruption. The controls are difficult for the president and governors and mayors. This immense power of the concentrated is on few hands. Also there are no bills practically. The second perspective of this argument is an economy that is controlled by the government. We have basically an economy that is a state economy due to the subsidies and we have 42 sectors with special protection in terms of imports, preferential interest for certain types of funding and the state-owned companies that tend to have enormous deficits and with this the very powerful and huge unions and public career corporations we were unable to pass the social security reform due to the power of these public corporations and the idea once again of sharing taxes in Brazil. The constitution guarantees that taxes can be shared. There is a constitutional sharing but not of the contributions. So for decades the trick the tax and fiscal coup is that the contributions are not part of the division. 53% remains in the hands of the federal government and is not distributed to municipalities. The legislative branch therefore is under the control of economic power and the funding of political parties. Why do they have to be funded? There is such a concentration of power in the economy in public power that businessmen that do not have their sector protected by a law or assisted by the budget will go bankrupt. Therefore those who most issue orders are the public power because they use the public resources of the government. Once again this is something that should lead us to rethinking the Brazilian government to break with that cycle of corruption. Now we also have the private sector as you mentioned it is necessary for the private sector to be convinced that corruption is evil that it is destructive and the basis the foundation for a healthy private sector is a healthy competition. The countries that we mentioned here I never imagined to get to Panama, Ecuador and the Dominican Republic and realize that the taxi drivers had a better knowledge of Odebrecht than myself. They knew the names of all of the directors besides making other comments that I will not repeat here. It is necessary for the public private sector to be convinced of this and also the large corporations. Last year I went to Germany and the Minister of Justice informed me that the most difficult problem was a medical license for workers. There are millions of hours of working hours lost because they are able to obtain justifications to be absent at work. And it was impossible to open a consulate because of the enormous number of people who are absent all with a certificate justifying their absence. And once again we have to begin doing this at home when your daughter or son at seven o'clock of a cold morning refuses to go to school and we say that is acceptable. I will find a doctor to give you a certificate. Once we break with this cycle at home we will be able to do away with all of these habits. The last comment, as a former soccer player we know that you can lose or gain everything in the four minutes that I have. That union of the public and private sector in Brazil we had 17 programs called HEFIS. This is a federal program to refinance the fiscal debt. 17 HEFIS show the incredible power of the lobbies in the judiciary branch and the executive branch. 17 HEFIS in 10 years is once again an invitation to evade taxes. Once again this has to be overcome. Thank you very much minister. We have very little time but we would also like to offer our guests the floor. Are there any questions regarding this topic that we are addressing? Where have we failed and who has failed to ensure that the enormous volume of corruption in Latin America has become such an impactful volume. All of the parties and institutions seem to be implied in this. Is it the press that has failed? Is it justice that has failed? Is it only the politicians, the private sector? We have mentioned what should be done. Why is it that we have such high levels of corruption and who has failed in this case in each country? The situation will be different but perhaps we could come to a common conclusion. I would say that corruption is like tango. You need to dance. Therefore in each corrupt agreement there is a public sector and somebody from the private sector that is paying or that is being forced to pay. I'm not accusing anybody but this is a relationship of two. We cannot tackle the problem by only focusing on one of the partners. You should be willing to denounce or not participate in this game. And in the private sector the answer that we hear often times is I cannot face up to this otherwise I will no longer be able to do business. This is what I have heard from businessmen. So you in civil society should fight against this but I have to do business. I have a payroll of 40,000, 50,000 employees that depend on me and that is why I simply accept this. There is a way of getting out of this through what we call the integrity packs that the world forum uses through sectors. What happens if an entire sector decides not to offer kickoffs in bids for piping, potable water or health services if we all come to an agreement that we're not going to pay for bribes the situation will be over. One of the two partners will not dance the tangle. However, we need to have political will and the will for a real transparency and commitment from the private sector. Any other comments on this? Who is it that has failed? I think the parties have failed and the electoral institutions. What happens? Why do our politicians behave as they do? Because they can. Corruption advances until it clashes against resistance. If there are no sanctions be this through electoral institutions or through voters or through judges the magistrate will continue to be an acceptable behavior and civil society has also failed. There is a sector that is indignant that goes out and complains but in many of our countries corruption and I see this daily in Mexico is not a deal breaker. We presume that this is the normal behavior for somebody who is entering politics and politics has become a place to distribute the loot if we do not teach new behaviors at social level new demands, new complaints against politicians if we do not sanction them through the electrical route if they are corrupt as I say in Mexico we have too many citizens that have that within themselves that small supporter of the pre-party and they're used to the fact that the best politician does not render accounts the best politician is the one that gives you things if we don't begin to change that vision of politicians as somebody who offers public goods or that makes public policy decisions that will generate public goods if we do not change that perceptions from the viewpoint of civil society no complaint will be sufficient as we need two to allow corruption we also need two to combat corruption and I think that both of these sectors are failing and for civil society to be able to sanction a corrupt paper with a non-election that would be ideal the problem is that they are re-elected so we have to have other powers that can intervene so that person no longer has the possibility of becoming a candidate for elections we know that some corrupt politicians have a great power of transmission they're populace and they're voted for time again and the role of electoral institutions and the judicial power is fundamental to say this person is corrupt and they can no longer appear in the polls or have access to a public position in the next coming years we're going to offer the floor to Justice Doquato and then offer the floor to all of you I was revising the ten promises not complied with in democracy the first is that secret and closed system of power where all of the social, financial and economic levels meet the famous mensalão that was judged through the federal government Petrolão and Lava Jato this has involved everybody actively, passively they were all participants of this process of corruption historically in Brazil nobody was outside of mensalão, of Petrolão everybody was an accomplice which is a message to foreigners we have only five groups of news reports in Porto Alegre to in São Paulo one in Rio and some in Brazil Rio, Belo Horizonte, Recife the news is not broadcast throughout the entire country what is known about the Lava Jato and I can say this as a former minister of transparency is only 10% it is but the tip of the iceberg we are controlling some facets of some illegal actions in some of the larger capitals the rest of Brazil has been left outside of this process and there are many more states that are not included and the municipalities are also subject to corruption let's speak about São Paulo the municipal elections only 20 municipalities are followed up by the media and in Brasilia or in Brazil 10 states elections for governor also only 10 states the rest are outside of this process in my opinion this is very shocking of the 5,570 municipalities that were audited by the Ministry of Transparency to discover the use of federal resources two third disappeared with the money for lunch boxes in school education and health this is more serious than Lava Jato they are destroying the future of Brazil they are destroying the children of Brazil we are speaking about medication lunch boxes and health this is much more serious than Lava Jato when we think about the coming decades and information even in São Paulo one third of the GDP of Brazil two or three elections before for a federal representative many of the people incriminated in Mençalão were re-elected as our house representative some ended up in jail but have already left jail so you will see how the involvement of civil society becomes fundamental but everything will become with the press a final point simply to agree with everything that has been said the awareness is an exorable responsibility and if we are aware of that I think that what we are missing is affirmative action action that will come out of our discourse and put these practices at the center of the agenda we have the desire we have the technology available what else do we need to do so that affirmative actions can put all of this into practice the additional failure is the lack of affirmative action where to begin with the contributions of civil society the public and private sector using the technology available that several industries are using to ensure that their actions are compliant thank you Paula we have only 15 minutes more and this is the moment to offer the floor to our participants I insist we would like to hear brief questions and not speeches I'm going to try thank you very much a member to book from Paraguay corruption used to be defined as an illegal advantage on public resources it is corruption when it is private with private for example between Komebol and FIFA in the United States the Supreme Court ended with the controls with how much can a millionaire can finance a campaign why there in the state that is not corruption say it is corruption also the decision taken by the Supreme Court was very much questioned from the point of view of transparency and political financing anyway the financing scheme for politics is different from our countries our countries have our public and private system for funding in the United States the public privacy is for the presidential election only if candidates accept the limit of expenditure the realities in the last four cycles the candidates have not accepted the public financing in order to be able to spend everything that they collect that is much more than the public funding as to FIFA clearly this is a corruption case because it is abusing the power offered to them for personal benefit this is a cultural matter your explanation was legal this is perfect but this is a cultural matter there it is not considered corruption here we must look at our roots for economies, ethics, religion etc in the states that is not corruption that money speaks this is a famous phrase it's a way of showing freely your thoughts so that's another notion it is corruption in the clear sense of society where there are bias there is a legal definition for corruption for the American courts that supposes the commitment of I give you something if you give me something very concrete so when you give the financing you don't say it but the analysis of the corruption shows that this the financing of politics is the opportunity window for corruption we are going to offering the floor for other people from the audience good morning, thank you I'm Isabel Sanmalo president and the the foreign minister of Panama we lead with corruption in different ways in different parts of the world in some regions where you identify from a company there are legal procedures but the company take action and continues goes on in my country this is a call to what is called the civil death of a company we cancel projects of this company people lose their jobs in Panama it hasn't been done like this the justice functions we work with Bryce projects go on and we believe that the fight against corruption doesn't affect the innocent my question is this legitimate is legitimate to approach the corruption in this way and allow that a company that has been clearly identified for having worked with corruption and with bribes may continue with his projects and continue working one word that has not been mentioned here yet but I believe it's crucial is the word impunity the corruption is perpetrated when there is impunity in Mexico 98% of the belitos the corrupts have not been to jail if corruption is not punished legally or socially if I see a corruption politician the sanction would be not to allow him to participate in the political function the same thing with the different businesses because if you don't show a dissuasive effect you cannot achieve a change of behavior so to find against impunity there must be a sanction a penalty for corruption and this comes through the judicial power and the civil society I'm impressed that in Mexico the ex-president Salinas family for example goes around this Mexican society meetings, parties and cocktail parties when there is a clear evidence of his participation in corruption there is no social sanction I believe that we should generate behaviors that at least show I will not shake his hand because to shake his hand would mean to condone what he has done to be an accomplice so only in this way we will start creating a new political culture in which these political actors actions would be sanctioned yes this is very interesting idea except that he must recognize his mistake for them and then he could have a rehabilitation but you have to pay for it I couldn't see you so I'm sorry I was the first to ask for the floor Minister I'm Carlos, I'm a Brazilian citizen I have a question for you Minister why did I show you we will have an election this year in Brazil we will have major vegetarian election that will be effective with the new law of donations of non-donations better said we know that in Brazil today who has more cash are the drug dealers on one hand which is Grace and on the other hand several kinds of churches that have a lot of cash that's a big risk for the country in order to choose many people that are related possibly with these two sides what is your opinion well you asked and you answered at the same time I would say the following the electorate justice what I word for 40 years as a judge and lawyer is better prepared for that control that you can never imagine there is a matrix for cost to know how much the paper the transportation all the costs that are part of an election in the electoral law there is a ceiling for expenses it's a very low in Brazil 2.5 million for a federal deputy or representative middle class apartment with this I cannot even convince my family to vote on me so this is a challenge for the organized crime in certain regions of Brazil the churches that are engaged in politics are an enormous weight for us but it is unavoidable there are other countries in other democracies where you also see and have like in Italy the force of the political party that had support of the Vatican in the south of the United States the Baptist congregation in the south so inevitably you have this in mix of politics and religion but nowadays as there is more communication this is better known but in the 50s you had yet born you were not born but the Catholic church was something definitive a sermon of father on Sunday would define the mayor election so there was always this identification between church and politics but I believe that what is really concerned is the connection with the drugs we have many countries many questions but we don't have time the organization is much concerned about and they consider that we must comply with the established time but there is just one item here that I would like to mention in order to finish the session there is the possibility that in those countries where the corruption is very strong like in Venezuela with the corruption that occurred in a very populist regime and we see the consequences and we are afraid to see what are the consequences in other countries like in Europe here in Brazil for example this serve is not mistaken the first is the first candidate in the political run is Mr. Bolsonaro he is a populist too if the corruption leads us to a populist populist regime I don't know this is inevitably related it is related there is a correlation that put a relation between more regime and populist regimes also the more corruption if you attack the free press this correlation is very clear and more corruption more attacks against free press and the investigation journalism and another very clear correlation this year has been the reduction of the civil space through restrictive laws and the increase of corruption I believe that to fight against corruption these are very simple corruption more integrity less impunity less indifference if we work in these four senses we will win this fight the struggle I believe that the president of transparency international has made this perfect ending to these meetings there are other fora that will begin now that we will probably be as interesting as this one so we thank you all for your presence and we are finishing this forum