 What's up everybody? It's Chris from the Reward Soul where we talk about the problem, but focus on the solution And I am joined once again by the wonderful Dr. Mark Goldstein. How you doing today, Mark? I'm doing good, Chris and Thank you so much for supporting all the efforts that I'm making to Lesson suicide and and to all you listeners. I know Chris can be controversial But you know, I will tell you he has a certified heart of gold But there's many layers over it. So you have to get to know him to see it Get down through the layers. Yeah, no absolutely and and something that I'm trying to assist with is getting a word out there about the Stay Alive video that you did with Kevin Hines and the artist Reiko Can you explain to the audience a little bit about I've seen it But can you explain to him a little bit about what that video is? It'll be linked down in the description as usual, but can you kind of let him know what the purpose of that video is? Okay, so Stay Alive is a it's a conversation that I moderated and The two main participants besides me were Kevin Hines and he's the force of nature Who jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge and survived? He's an amazing human being and Reiko is a Japanese pop singer, you know, and she's had depression in her life and but she's also an advocate for suicide prevention She her group Performs at animation conferences and gaming conferences. So we're hoping to bring our Stay Alive and what we've learned out to those out to those people because there's a real dark side to the gaming community Community and that sort of thing and so, you know, and it's done Rather well and you can actually find it if you go to YouTube and And you put and you search for Stay Alive video and the channel The channel breaks the documentary up into eight chapters You can there's also a link to see the whole thing But the eight chapters will will help you focus more on what each of them is about and So we're spreading the word. I'm doing a couple maybe three interviews a day on this And and how we how we feel it's different is, you know, there's more suicide awareness now Maybe than ever before but the rate of suicide is climbing quickly. Yeah And that and that's exactly why I wanted to talk to you about Billy Eilish and This topic. So so my my guess my guess just kind of knowing you mark is that you're not listening to Billy Eilish teenage pop music No, no, okay. So let me let me fill you in because it's something I'm learning about. I've done quite a few videos I've had a lot of people recommend her to me because we got she has lyrics about mental health and sadness and depression and all these other things I just kind of want to lay out the the the framework of this and then have a discussion with you about it So Billy Eilish she kind of broke out as an artist when she was about 15. She's now 17 and she just released her new album and Something that people wanted me to talk about was is she kind of glamorizing depression or some people are labeling labeling it as misery music and Something that I know when I was growing up and I was a teenager I listened to a lot of very dark sad depressing music with some very dark messages in it So I could relate to that and for me it helped me know that somebody else out there understood the pain I was feeling and sometimes what I found with music is somebody could put into words what I'm feeling better than I can But kind of like what you just mentioned is the suicide rates are still huge I was just looking at the American Foundation for suicide prevention and like the there was like 1.4 million Attempts in 2017. I that's a lot of attempts and so with Billy Eilish her demographic is Mainly teenagers some people in their early 20s. I'm not the demographic. You're not the demographic So I want to kind of have this conversation with you about you know teens who are feeling this way because if you look in the comments of her videos like her music videos you see a lot of young people saying they can relate and You know, sometimes they say like this music is the only thing that's keeping them around and you know, so I don't know Like one of the questions I guess I have is I'm a parent if my son was really listening to a lot of this music Should I be concerned? Should I have a conversation? Like what? What are your thoughts on this? I think the music has helped anything that helps people feel less alone Helps them, you know along the same lines and something I have mixed feelings about I have 560,000 Twitter followers and I have permanently pinned at at Mark Goulston if you go there at MARK I've permanently pinned at the top a question How many of you have known of or known someone in your community who committed suicide? I know you're not supposed to say committed suicide But it's too late and it has 2.4 million impressions a lot of impressions Over 1,400 comments and two-thirds of the comments are people just listing all the people they know who've killed themselves And it's chilling and a number of people say I've tried several times and a number of people said I've tried several times and I'll probably eventually do it now. It's a community You know, it's just me putting it up there and what I do is I invite people to share with each other Compassion, you know In fact, I remember someone reached out to me and said they were feeling worthless And I said if you're feeling worthless Go track the comments and if there's someone who's having a hard time and I can't stay on top of them again It's not a clinic. It's a community. You know, we have references to national suicide life nine numbers, etc It's a reach out and check and just check with someone like haven't haven't heard your comments lately Just checking to see if you're okay And a number of those people are gonna say Thank you for reaching out You may have you actually saved some lives and what's gonna happen is you're gonna feel worthwhile Yeah, no, absolutely. No, I worry about it because again I'm not meaning to be irresponsible But I just don't have the manpower to stay on top of it So I've just I've left it there and I will occasionally respond and comment But you know, there's only so much time in the day. Yeah, if you're worried about your kid being in a Tough place and a lot of times adolescents. They don't want to talk Mm-hmm. And one of the reasons they don't want to talk is many times They're afraid that if they talk they're gonna start to cry What they don't know and even this is true with adults and when I was in a clinic in my clinical practice I wouldn't make anyone cry. I'd enable them to cry Hmm, and they had and they had so much crying inside to me It was like looking at a big abscess with all this pus that needed to drain But just like if you have an abscess, you know, you don't want the surgeon to go in there with a scalpel and whatever Even though, you know, it needs to drain And so Yeah And it's good even though initially, you know, the knee-jerk reaction of parents who don't have these kind of close conversations with anyone Well, we'll say oh, it'll be okay But what you have to realize is it's good for them to cry They're crying with the relief of not feeling so alone That can then lead to what to do about it, but I wouldn't race in with what to do about it Mm-hmm. I Get the feeling for them to kind of even get it out of their system. Yeah other questions you can say Here's a good question. So they're crying about it. What you what you then say is look at me Look at me. I Understand Anyone would have felt that way and it's gonna get better Next time that happens What would be a better thing to do when you're feeling that bad what you're hoping they'll start to realize is Talking to you. Yeah talking to someone. Yeah, and so getting a certain luck is because people don't have this they when they when they Resonate with music that they can relate to Because what you said at the beginning of my long, you know monologue there is people are writing comments to these Song and they say oh, I can really relate to it Just what they can say it on that tweet at my Twitter page and I can relate to it. I can connect to it And that's what people Yeah, see what happens is people who feel really depressed and suicidal They can't connect to anything and so when it gets really awful they connect to death They just take the pain away. So it's sort of this real deep need to connect With other people But what's happened is we don't have the vocabulary for it. Yeah, I love music because music there's something It's not just the lyrics we're relating to You know the lyrics are weaved into the melody and the melody can draw you in And interesting something I didn't realize until the last 10 15 years some of my favorite songs You know from an older era I sort of remember the lyrics but a lot of times it was the music and I was drawn into the melody And and and some of my friends I only really read the lyrics in the last 20 years And I thought oh my god, those were amazing lyrics. I Wasn't hearing the word. I was hearing the melody because the melody would draw me. Yeah and that's that's something that that's one of the reasons why I really like Breaking down lyrics to is I know when I when I first started working on my own mental health and trying to pull myself up out of that Hole was just like learning how to communicate these things even if it was just with myself, right? Like this is what you're feeling. This is how it feels and I don't know I might just be you know There's a theory of mind that people enjoy me breaking down some of those lyrics because it helps dive even deeper Or maybe it's just some confirmation that the way they interpreted these lyrics Maybe somebody else interpreted them them as well But I know you and I have talked about you know, you wrote a piece on Anthony Bourdain after he passed away And here's a conversation that keeps coming up Billie Eilish being a young woman of 17 years old making these very dark lyrics and she's She has said that she kind of does this as like She like thinks of different characters. That's how she writes her music But you know, there's interviews where it seems a little bit differently, but here's a thing I don't know if you remember Chester Bennington. He was a musician who took his own life a couple years ago Recently was the anniversary of Kurt Cobain and I know as listeners as the audience There's not much we can do we don't know these people, but I don't know There's an there's there's a conversation out there like oh, you know, this doesn't involve you This isn't your concern which I kind of disagree with because we do lose people all the time So it's like what can we do? What conversations can we have? How do we know if somebody is struggling because like I like I just made a video talking about Chester Bennington That came out of nowhere for me and when you look at his interviews and stuff before he passed away He was very happy and outgoing and and everything like that But the conversation I was trying to have with people is I know that when I was at my lowest in my depression I could easily put on a mask and make everybody believe that I was okay What do you have any thoughts or suggestions on that for if somebody has somebody in their life? Like are there other subtle signs to look for if somebody appears? Okay, but clearly something else is going on. Maybe maybe a parent finds their kids journal, right and they're Writing down these dark thoughts or whatever it is, but on the outside, you know, they're playing sports And they're doing well in school and they have friends Do you have any any suggestions about that because that's something I worry about because I know I used to wear that mask all the time That I was okay Well, there's something that I suggest the parents and you know, I've already gone over the seven words But I often suggest the parents especially teenagers who aren't old enough to drive yet The best time to have conversations is when you're driving somewhere because it's not eye-to-eye heart-to-heart Teenagers do not like these eye-to-eye heart-to-heart conversations. It really creeps them out Unless they're seeking you out. And so when you're doing a parallel activity and the perfect one is you're driving and they're there That's the best time To actually have a conversation with them. Now, of course, you know in this day and age They're looking at their iPhone and and even while you're driving You're looking at your text messages and saying the hell if I get pulled over by a cop So so even in the car, it's tough to do that But I often suggest the parents to to be curious about your kids Mines and and you might say something like I'm curious about something And you ask one of your kids which you which are the kids in your class Do you think it's gonna get in trouble this year and we're not gonna blow the whistle on them I'm not gonna call the parents, but you know, which kid do you think will get in trouble? Well, so and so why well, you know, they got kicked out three times last year. Okay So they seem better now. I don't know and again, you're not giving them advice You're pulling things out of them and you might even say Any idea why they get in trouble Any any thoughts about what happened to them? So it's a way of drawing out of them, you know insight Judgment perspective, but where you really want to take it Is you want to get them to talk about stuff? Mm-hmm. So another question you might ask them Which is school related as you could say, you know, you know, I'm really I'm really I'm really liking finding out how you think let me ask you in school What's a class you can you don't have to study for into the last minute you can get away with it And what and what's one that you better stay on top of and again, you don't tell them what to do But you're planting seeds in them. Well, I better stay on top of you know A math because you miss a couple days you may get caught up But if I have to write a term paper, you know, I could probably bullshit the last minute That really makes sense. But you're having them come up with their solutions. Yeah And then you know where you really want to take it and I'm not saying you should have this all in one conversation But you can plant the seed and on a future drive you can say remember I asked you all those kind of You know crazy questions that I was curious about Yeah, yeah, okay. What dad what mom? Well, it's back again I got a couple more and you say it's sort of in a humorous way How do you know the difference between for yourself a bad mood you're having that It's just going to pass, you know, and you're in you're angry or you want to You know never speak to one of your friends. You just know, you know, it's sort of temporary And something that doesn't seem temporary. And so you're wanting them to tell you the difference How do you know the difference between something you should come and talk to me or your mom or your dad About and something you should try and figure out on your own So do you follow what I'm saying? It's a it's a different frame Yeah, something something that I've even done with my 10 year old son Because I like I'm a I'm a fan of I'm not I'm not sure if you're familiar with dr. Daniel Siegel um, he does a lot of like Neuroscience and childhood brain development mindfulness. Yeah Yep. Yep. Love his stuff and and he talks a lot about I forgot which book it was I think it was like the yes the yes brain or something but a lot of it is like uh, having your children like put stories together to kind of Connect the dots and so like when I watch a movie with my son Like I'm like which what parts did you like about this movie? What what do you think that character was feeling or thinking and I think it's helped him develop empathy But even still like something I'll ask him, you know, I'm a 33 year old man. He's 10 years old But we'll be driving and I'll tell him about an issue that I'm going through and I'll ask him for suggestions But what would you do in this situation? Right if you were dealing with these types of comments from people on your youtube videos or if you were dealing with this with your friends like What do you think I should do and something I'm just trying to get his His problem solving wheels turning to kind of uh, look at look at those situations and and um, I it's something I've really been practicing with him the last couple months And um, I've noticed that he's come to me more often Um, maybe he'll just overhear me having a conversation and just kind of toss in some suggestions and and things like that But I've also had him come to me and tell me about his own situations He plays a ton of fortnight with his friends online and he'll tell me about those situations like that I got really upset and I just told my friends I had to walk away for a little bit and things like that so So yeah, I'm not like I'm not sure if it's working It's just something that I'm I'm trying to do because My number one thing that I'm trying to do with my son like my number one goal Is that he always knows he could talk to me, you know, because Even in the twitter chat today, like we were talking a lot about teens and youth and and I just know There's so much fear around talking to parents I know when I first started developing a lot of my depression and anxiety in high school I was afraid to talk to a teacher or counselor my parents I was afraid that they were going to send me and like lock me up in a straight jacket Just because I didn't know any better. I like if if anybody knew what was going on in my mind I thought they were going to lock me up. So I just kept it inside You know, so that's that's why I love having these conversations about just figuring out different ways to discuss things What's interesting you say that because because I think you're absolutely right that a lot of teenagers are afraid to have these conversations Uh, I think there's several layers Superficially what they're afraid of is, you know, I'm going to get punished or I'm gonna You know, they're gonna look at me like I'm weird or I'm sick Another thing they're afraid of but not as conscious of it is that Is that it's going to be a sort of I wouldn't say belittle but just sort of disregard. Oh, that's no big deal And then what that's going to trigger in you is I knew I shouldn't have told them What it's going to triggering you is Hurt resentment and if they do that a lot you start to get enraged at them You know, and so there's a fear that either they'll punish me or they'll just you know, uh minimize it or They won't they won't be able to do anything and then I'll really feel alone and helpless because maybe I'm saving Talking to them when I really need them And then when I talk to them and I really need them and and they come up clueless That's just going to make me feel even more alone. A lot of these things are functioning in in Teens minds I think what you're doing is is is actually brilliant because you're not laying your problems on him You're respecting his mind and say, what would you do in these situations? I also love the idea Of if you ever watch anything a movie or you watch a american idol or the voice or any of these things I think asking your kids questions, you know, who do you think the most nervous contestant was? You know, who's the one do you think that had the most? Sad story that the judges, you know You know wanted to push through but they just weren't talented enough and she's what do you think that kid felt? So I think using those shared experiences And causing them to sort of drill down Because see what you really want Your kids and you and and our listeners to really be able to do is pause and ask themselves What happened to me that caused me To want to do this. I feel like hurting myself or hurting someone else You want people to stop and save themselves What happened to me that caused me to do that? Yeah, that's and then and then and with some luck and and when they pause That can help them back off that irresistible impulse that could be really destructive Yeah, and that's you know, that's Well, the overall topic I'm about to mention is a whole another video But that's kind of what I'm trying to do when I bring in pop culture things for my youtube videos with the audience is Trying to get inside the mind of this person because I just I believe the more that we think about that and kind of Give attention like conscious attention to Someone else's feelings and emotions and potential thought processes It makes us be more mindful of our own, you know what I mean because I just think too many too many of us Watch things very passively like you mentioned just American Idol or you know other tv shows or movies or whatever We watch them just kind of zone out and I I'm a huge believer in turning everything into a some type of learning experience So what I'm suggesting to you with your followers is what you could say to them is You may or may not have Checked it out. But one of one of the celebrities Said this thing and clearly, you know, and they got a lot of backlash And so it was probably a slip of the tongue But I'm assigning you my followers Let's get a deeper understanding of of anyone who makes one of these comments that grabs our attention And it's fair game because You know because they're in the public eye and because making these comments and being a celebrity Is what allows them to be popular to make a lot of money So whatever they say or do is fair game But but rather than just reacting to the behavior Because this is this is the rewired soul Let's go deeper Yeah, I'm going to try that and see and and again, I can't promise anything because if if I get feedback saying, you know This is boring chris. Can you do some more stuff so that we can hate you? Yeah, no, I absolutely love that idea because I I feel like just we like right now we live in a very reactionary time And a lot of people are just like I think it's just because we're so inundated with information Every day there's somebody else getting You know backlash and everything like that and people I don't think we take enough time to sit back and pause and say what What what do I think the motivation was what do I think the intention was? You know or or the background and what are some contributing factors that might have led to this Right and that's something I try to look at with every situation that happens in the news or when you were talking to I was looking at my own situation and I was like, okay. What were things that? Contributed to all these things and as individuals the most we could do is take it and learn from it but Something I've always been trying to teach my audience too is that I learned from other people's successes as well as their mistakes like that's what I love about mentorship too is that you have somebody kind of Guiding you on a certain path and saying here's what worked for me. Here's what did it work for me? You know So we're not just kind of like winging it throughout life. Like we we find somebody who's actually Gained some wisdom and we're running. I'm running short for today, but we'll continue the conversation Always always always a pleasure mark and everybody else watching there will be links down below So thanks again so much for your time mark and we'll do this again soon We're gonna continue it. You're not getting rid of me that easily I love it. Thanks mark