 Hey, welcome back everybody. Welcome to the anxious truth. This is episode number 176. If you're watching on video, you got to see my guest air guitaring his way through through the intro. Welcome back to the show. Today we have a special guest in the studio and by studio I mean on Zoom all the way from the UK. My friend, frequent collaborator, respected expert as usual, Josh Refletcher is here. What up, Josh? What up, Drew? How you doing? It's lovely to be back on here. I love your podcast. I love everything that you do and our chats are always fun and productive and well, at least I think they are. Listeners might be like, well, these guys talking about again. No, they seem to get a lot out of it. Everybody seems to enjoy when we do this. So full disclosure on the technical level, we're trying video here because this is going to be a video podcast. So bear with me if things get a little bit wonky, but the content will be good as always. So today we're going to talk about Josh just released a new course. So I want to talk about that course. It is targeted at panic disorder and agoraphobia and other anxiety problems as you guys are well aware. If you listen to this podcast, you know what we're talking about. I want to talk about the course itself specifically, of course, but I really want to talk about why, why that course has to be done. And some of the stuff that's out there that maybe might not be so helpful. So we're going to talk about Josh's course and maybe we'll veer into a little bit of a spicy discussion, which Josh had no idea we were going to do. Let's see how many friends and enemies we can make today. No, I won't be that really. So anyway, tell us about the course. The course is called Stop Fearing Fear with Anxiety Josh. And the impetus behind it was to obviously help people with anxiety, fear, sensations that you're bread and butter stuff through agoraphobia, things like that, and do it in a way that's step by step interactive and you can go back to it using another medium, you know, just adding a visual medium. We're in the age where there's a lot of courses, digital courses being released. And I wanted to release an accessible one that was affordable for people. Because as we know, there's many people out there that hide information behind paywalls and get you to coerce you into, you know, pying with money. So I put it a really affordable rate for everyone. It's quite surprising. People are like, whoa, you're doing that for that? I was like, yeah, because I want people to hear it. That's what we do. I spend time trying to educate people with people like you. Dean from DLC and many of the mental health community. I want to just put another modicum of information out there for people, particularly for those who fear fear, and I'm very happy with the outcome. Yeah, it's a good title here, fear and fear, because in the end, that is what this is kind of all about being afraid of being afraid. Yeah, definitely. I mean, how many times did you think drew in your recovery or when you were suffering? I personally thought it was like, oh, I've got to do exposures in the supermarket and now I've got to do exposures in the car and then seeing my family. It's like, well, no, actually, you're doing the exposure to one thing and that's your fear fear. Yeah, they're just plot devices in that. And that's why it's really important. You know, this is good. And people need to hear that. And it is a point of, I think, very large scale confusion. So one of the more popular episodes I did on this particular show was called All Your Fears Are One Fear, which I don't know. Go back and search. I don't know which one it was. It was probably a year ago now. And everybody, it was a light bulb moment for so many people that heard that, like, oh no, you're right, it is. But that's good news, right? Because you don't have to learn how to do every task in life again, which some people think you do. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And you couldn't, this is why it's nice to set goals. And I know you're very, I don't know about this. There's no goal that's too small. Because if you're going towards what your actual fear is, it doesn't matter what's happening on externally. So some people might be afraid of having panic attacks on public transport or on a train or a bus. Whereas some people may feel like they're behind because they can't leave their own house. But actually, both exposures are the same. And I agree with you. It's one fear. You're just fearing fear. And so what I've done, and particularly in the course and stuff is just to encourage the, you're all exposing yourself to the same thing. It doesn't matter. Don't compare. Don't be like, oh, well, no, there's some people I know in Drew's group or there's some people I know that are in the same boat as me that can, you know, they can leave, they can go on holiday and do things like that. And I can't do that, but they still struggle with their own fears. So it's really important to realize is that, no, and what I encourage on the course is that you celebrate each win. And we do that. It's already celebrated. I took that from you. I should spend more time celebrating the wins of the people that listen to us. And to be honest, it's, it's the reason kind of why I started off doing this. I'm just going to try not to forget doing it. I love it. It's wonderful. My favorite accounts to follow on social media really, I mean, you know, clearly follow people like you and all my friends that I collaborate with. But the people who are actually using the stuff that we talk about, I love those accounts. Those are my favorite accounts. And every once in a while, it's always nice to give them a little shout out and some love. I dig it. I'm definitely going to do that. Yeah. I'm definitely going to do that more. I think, and yeah, you inspire me to do that because it does. It gives you like a warm feeling inside, but also you know what it's like. We know what it's like. Don't we to be there and be like, everything in my mind and body is telling me I shouldn't do this. Everything in my mind and body is saying avoid just in case, the magic word just in case, just in case, just in case, just in case the bad happens, that catastrophic what if happens, that sensation becomes too overwhelming for you to handle. And when you cling on to the words of kind of what we say, and other people say like, no, go towards the uncertainty, you're practicing being anxious, you're practicing go towards it. And when someone does that willingly, you know, or like you say surrender, I call it willful tolerance, you know, it's kind of when they do it and then they suddenly start to see their anxiety dissipate. That is a wonderful feeling. Yeah, it's a superhero feeling. I always found it. And I know you can relate to this. It's, you know, that moment where while I drove, I actually made the right turn onto root 347 and I drove for 60 seconds and I came back home. And that's such a huge win. And you know, you could tell your family and your friends, but if they don't understand, they don't really understand. So it's really nice to have somebody who does understand say, oh, no, no, I know what a huge win that is because I get that. So that's, that's so important. And I mean, one of the modules in Stop Fearing Fear is compassion. And also one of the rules, like when you, when you enroll in your class, you get, you encourage each other and stuff like that. But compassion is one of the modules in the sense that there's, I know so many people that see exposure as robotic. So they believe in the formula of exposure, which is if I put myself in a scary position, I will then overcome anxiety and that's where people get stuck. I've been doing my exposures all week and nothing's working. Yeah, because these people tend to go, they're brave enough to go set off and they're courageous enough to put themselves in a scary situation. But then what happens is that they're then disappointed that they didn't meet their own expectations for recovery or success. And therefore walk home with their head slumped, the slumps disappointed in themselves. And they start to be self critical. Whereas compassion is the ultimate ingredient. It's like, if you can get on board with how fun it is. So someone actually said this morning, I was going to share it with you. Someone said this morning, and I know you're like this because I can, oh my God, like since I started encouraging myself and I'm getting encouragement from people and I've been compassionate, I actually look forward to doing my exposure. And I was like, boom, that's it. That's the hill. Once you're over that hill, see you later. That's how you know that that shift has sort of happened. And I hear people talk about that all the time, like, oh, I'm almost, I think I might be a little bit addicted to my exposures and like, okay, we have to be careful about exposures becoming pulsive. But that's a great thing to do, right? When you get to that point where it's like, oh no, I really, I relish these experiences because they know they're making me better. It's, that's when the expectations begin to align with what the goals really are. And it's interesting because I would get full credit to our friend Kimberly for teaching me what compassion really meant. When I wrote the anxious truth and I said this to her, when I wrote an anxiety story, which was my own story, I literally wrote like, there was no self compassion. And in retrospect, though, I wish I could erase that from the thousands of copies that are out there because I just meant that I wasn't going to let myself off the hook, but I've learned since that yet, celebrating your victories really helps put your expectations in alignment with where they should be for how this process goes. It's also like, it's an indication of where your self-esteem is at as well. It's if you, the post analysis of your recovery or your exposures or whatever it is you're doing, it's how you speak to yourself after it is so important to build to the next step. I mean, the first three modules and stop fearing fear is about reframing the words to a more compassionate way. And I keep telling people, no, this is the problem. You know, I have an overly sensitized nervous system and I am afraid of these adrenaline rushes rather than I can't control my panic attacks. So they mean the same thing, but it's so encouraging to, it's so powerful, the semantics and the words that you use to describe what's going on, you know, to the point where even when I did it and I described my own panic disorder here is when I said, life got too stressful for me and my brain decided, the old anxious part of my brain got confused and started to become overprotective of me. I need to now work hard and compassionately to turn that part of my brain off. This isn't my fault. It's just responding to what, how I was dealing with life at the time. Whereas, oh my God, I'm a warrior. I'm overthinker. Listen, that ain't going to help. No, it's not. And it's not being very nice to yourself. That's true. Yeah. So I do like that stuff, you know, and that's what is unique about the course as well because there's some other courses out there by people who don't really understand compassion. Well, I think, you know, this is good. And we get into this a little bit. So why is the course needed? And by the way, let me just echo that whole, when I wrote the anxious truth, I wrote that this is really a reactions problem more than anything else, right? So change your reaction before, during and after. And after is the story that you tell after the experience. So you're going to run back into your Facebook group or your home or your friends and say, that was terrible. I panicked. I thought I was going to pass out. I almost passed out. I almost died. My heart was racing. That's, that's not, you know, you're not really being very kind to yourself because you're basically saying that the way you felt as a failure. Whereas for me, a huge shift became, I could acknowledge that I felt all those things, but really the story ended with, well, I just really did a hard thing to help retrain my brain. And I did it. Look, I did it. And I can do it again tomorrow. And that became really a story after the exposure and it had to end there and things began to really snowball and change for the better for me when I did that. Perfect. You're right. I like that before, during and after. It's the after where people can, can, can for the lesson is. Yeah. Yeah. Because and also where the brain, what the brain remembers before it sleeps. Yeah. You know, so it'll remember that exposure for the day. I mean, I can see those guitars behind you. I mean, I don't think I'm ready enough to enjoy that exposure of you playing it yet. Yeah. But there's not a lot of times. How many times you try to play a song. And you hit a wall or whatever. And then you go to sleep on it. Oh, it's all right. I've done enough today. I'll practice it some more tomorrow. And you pick the guitar up two days later and you're suddenly playing back. Absolutely. How am I, how am I doing this? I'm not even played. It's because you went to bed and the brain started to piece together actually. That was some good practice for today. Well done, et cetera. Yeah. So if you've got anxiety and then you're constantly comparing yourself after exposure. Well, yeah, I went to the park and I was brave, but three years ago I could fly around the world and sort of pathetic. I'm like, well, you're going to, you know, that you're going to stay in that area. It almost like panic disorder for me in agriphobia forced me to discover an element of self compassion in me that was always there. But I pushed down and particularly as a guy, it's not necessarily gendered, but as a guy, I think the more sensitive language is more socially taboo. And I was like, no, once I realized how powerful it was, I'm like, this is really important and everyone deserves it. Yeah. I always say, you know, it's how we speak to our anxiety is one thing. How we speak about it is also very important because in the end, the person who hears it most of anyone else is us when we speak. We hear our own words. We talk about, you know, I said, that's one of the important parts of the course, which I did, you know, helping people with that because I mean, look, I'll just go out and say it. Anybody can read a Claire Weeks book and create, you know, four hours of video and charge money for it. So and they're out there, I get that. But the practical application of those concepts starts to get a little bit tricky where you really have to pay attention to the individual nuances and you have to really understand what it's like to teach what exposure is. That's that's not a mystery. But what do you think is the differentiating factor for you? The differentiating the differentiating factor with what I've done was start fearing fear is throughout it all, there's no failure. I think a lot of these courses particularly constructed by people that go in with it with the wrong intentions. They will. It's usually people just hungry greedy people who want loads of money, you know, some of these people charge three grand for these courses. I'm like, you know, even train man like wake up. But anyway, the biggest danger I find about those courses is that there's this dichotomy of success that's created where if you're not getting better, it's because you're not following my advice. And I find that quite dangerous. So what I do in mind is like, no, actually, if you're not getting better, I want to know what I didn't include. I want you to let me know. I want you to know that every improvement is success. It's if you're not getting better, it's not something is not down to that you've not done. It's down to something that I've not taught properly. And that's the difference, you know, and I do, you know, I do weekly Q&A with the people in the course just to answer those questions. Thankfully, I didn't miss out anything massive. But those will inform revisions and down the road. Yeah, definitely. And it's a bit like your group which I love it's that cold kind of it's just those reminders of where you can be. But kind reminders where we're all like, you know, we don't need the way this is the way out. And let's all celebrate and encourage each other on the way out. And that's really nice. And that's the difference. And that's why I put out such a low price like a low price point for a course as well because I want everyone to have a go at it and give me feedback if you need to, you know, like even if it's change your haircut or get a wash or whatever. Please don't and nobody comment on Josh's hair. It's a sensitive moment. I even like the way you name the course because stop fearing fear is a very specific and not grandiose thing because I think a lot of the courses that we see out there, they immediately go. If I see another course where the cover image of the course is a person on the top of a mountain in the victory pose, I'm going to lose my shit because like that's great. But that's such a tough bird. And that's a hard thing to hand somebody who's taking a course like a low price and like while that's an inspired might be an inspiring image, you really broke it down to the smallest like, hey, this is really what this is. And you know what, if you wind up on the top of the mountain, great. But if you wind up just being able to drop your children off at school, then that's also a huge win. So bringing it right down to the nitty gritty of just stop fearing your fear. This is what we're going to learn how to do here. You know that you know that you're not the kind of person you are. And I know that you're with me on this hand on heart. I'm no more impressed with someone who can climb a mountain and that then some who's someone's aim was to go and visit their. Their mom in another state. Yeah, like that. I am more. It's I get more, not even more dry, I get the same joy from people walking to the end of their street or around the block that terrified them as someone who for a work, I mean, it's the same joy. It's like, wow, did that scare you? And you did it? Wow, that's amazing. And genuinely, I'm not just saying that. I think it's really, really satisfying. You must hear that in your group of stuff as well, Drew. Oh, all the time. I was gonna ask, what would your image be? What would your, like, for me when I was in the midst of panic, what was the image of the equivalent of me being on top of a mountain with panic disorder would be in Asda, which is Walmart. And I'd be shaking in the frozen poultry aisle going. That's my image on top of the mountain, because that's the scariest thing I did in my recovery. What would your image be? That's fair. I think mine, I might have had to one and we'll go back to the hair thing because it matters to both of us. Neither of us is gonna win any awards for our hair. So for me, it was probably two images. The cover image of my course would have probably been just sitting there, eyes forward, getting my hair cut without, like, literally losing my shit, you know? That would be a huge win. That was a hard, hard, hard thing to do and probably pictures from back then would prove that. And the other one would be just sitting on my sofa. As crazy as it sounds, I aspire to be able to sit on my sofa in the house alone. So I know for a lot of people listening to us sitting on the sofa is a problem because they're agoraphobic and severely restricted by their panic attacks. But all I wanted to do is be able to be home alone for half hour and not be terrified. So those aren't very inspiring images. Some dude sitting alone at his house and some guys, you know, sitting there getting his haircut but they matter. They really mattered to me. Just like your tiny goals, being able to go to your cousin's wedding, you know, two towns away and stay there for three hours. That's a huge deal. That is worthy of end of celebration when you get to that point. So we should do that. Massive, yeah. There was a huge one the other day. People, I managed to get public transport for the first time in 20 years. So I'm like, that's great. You know, and they credited you and our recovery rooms and everything like that. And just basically it's our message to different modicums, isn't it? And I think when she was doing the course, she thought, you know what? I'm going to take everything I've learned from all you guys and I'm going to go and do it. And yeah, everyone's celebrating. I think she was a bit nervous to be like, oh, I got on the bus. I was like, that's amazing. One of my was on the bus. One of my first exposures was on the bus. I remember just sitting there like. Just swaying back and forth. Like, I was like, no, I'm going to tolerate this. We're not just going to count down till the bus stops or until I can get off. I'm going to I can live on this bus if I wanted to. Mentally, this bus is now my home and I'm never going to leave it. Oh, I love that so much because so many of the times you can relate. I know you can relate to this. When you tell somebody, whether it's somebody on social media or maybe your clients in your therapy room, you know, look, you have to kind of accept that this this is going to be the rest of your life. But you know, it's not, but you have to be accepting of the fact that this is going to be the rest of your life. But I can tolerate it if it is for it not to be the rest of your life. So it's the paradox. It's the paradox of recovery. It is so paradoxical. And that's hard for people to hear when you say that sort of stuff, like, but what if it never goes away? Well, you'll handle it if it never goes away. And when you can truly get to that point, then you have a much higher probability of it actually going away over time. But when you say this bus, I'm going to make this bus my home as opposed to like setting the timer on my watch and just waiting, OK, four more, four more stops, three more stops. I know I can be on this bus indefinitely if I needed to. Powerful message, very powerful. Yeah, and it's important. I didn't enjoy the bus. No, the aim isn't to sit there and be happy and think about sunshine and rainbows. It was just be willing and you're absolutely right. It's the willingness of it. It's like once I was willing to be anxious and I didn't care where it happened. Yeah, the paradox of recovery is then it goes away because you're literally teaching the threat response. You don't fear it anymore. So it has to be a belief. And all a relapse means is you've temporarily lost the ability to tolerate your not the ability. You've temporarily lost your confidence in your ability to tolerate your sensations. That's all a relapse means. So when people go, oh, it's back, which is another module, it's back. There are anxieties back. I thought I could say no, the anxiety isn't back. What happened was that you've temporarily lost your confidence in your ability to tolerate it. And that's usually because you've got stress in your life. Usually you've probably moved house, broken up with your partner. There's a political election. There's you've probably been a bit ill work uncertainty. And then, yeah, that that confidence gets challenged, but it's okay. You can just be like, I anticipated this. And that's where I always encourage people to develop their metacognitive awareness. For me, even I do this now, if I've got an interview coming up or whatever or some big things coming up, some stressful stuff, what I'll do is I'll say, right, I'm going to make a note of that because I'm going to get intrusive thoughts. Because I struggled a lot with OCDM. So I know all that stress will lead to potentially disturbing intrusive thoughts. So I'll be like, no. And then when they do come in, I'm like, ah, so are you coming? So are you coming? Yeah, I was ready for it. I think that's ready for you. When our resiliency is a little bit low because I love your stress drug analogy, right? So when that's kind of full, we just have no room to put things. I think we're more likely to fall into those bad habits. I like to think of the setback thing is, number one, if you declare a setback, there's actually a bit of good news in there, believe it or not, because it means that you've been doing in your estimation better, which, okay, we might argue the mechanics of that because I know you say all the time, like, well, not panicking, tell me something more interesting than that. Okay, I didn't panic today. Great, but you got to go and practice panicking. So I get that part. But if you've been confined to your sofa or you've been really restricted because of your panic and anxiety, and you are now out and engaging with the world on a more consistent basis, absolutely that's better. And then when it sort of comes back, it's a reminder of like, oh, that's right, I have to do this thing again. So I think there's a good indicator for somebody that says, I've been doing so well, but now it's back. Well, that's good that you've been making progress, but may have forgotten that like, oh, no, no, the progress came because you went through these nasty things. Or it's an adjustment that says, well, the progress was kind of more that you inched your way into life and engineered a panic-free exposures. But even that realization is helpful, right? Because then you can adjust and say, oh, no problem. I have to adjust, change course a little bit. No problem. There's always something to learn. So I liked that you addressed that too. It's back. Yeah, it's back, yeah. And I know I've had that. I remember for years, I wrote my first book and I got into the state of, oh, yeah, I know it. I know the answers. And something happened in life. It was really kind of stressful and the jug filled up. And then, yeah, like, oof, it hit me. It's relapsed, it's back. And then obviously it's anxiety. It starts every thought of what if, like, what if there's something you missed? What if you don't, what if you now don't know? What if this time it's anxiety plus more, which is what I hear. What if it's anxiety and something else? Also just a quick note, like, I've been traumatized a lot in my life, but I don't have PTSD. So I had lots of therapists and people saying, well, we need to get to the root of the trauma. And I'm like, and then I started going down this rumination hole, keeping me in the cycle there. And actually all I was doing was seeking empty reassurance that I wasn't broken. I wasn't broken. I was just anxious. I just relapsed again. But it was masked. And that's why the definition will always be, I've temporarily lost my confidence in my ability to tolerate not only anxiety, but the uncertainty and recovery is that maintaining your confidence in the ability to lean into uncertainty. Which comes, I think through just those of those repeated experiences and varied experiences. You know, the more varied your experiences, I like to use the more portable, durable and portable. So the more experience you have, the more durable your recovery comes and the more portable it becomes across multiple contexts. So you want a very wide and deep recovery is what happens with repetition and dedication and repeated varied experiences. So it's a long road to home, man. Like even for a lot of us, it takes months and months or there may be elements of that that might take years because there are things you just don't have to do. The first time I had to fly after many years, I just had no reason to fly was a part of my recovery. Even though I would have told you I'd been recovered for five or six years by then. Well, no, maybe not, you know, not fully. And I had to meet that challenge and go through some scary stuff. But, you know, it's all doable. It's all doable. And I love how you kind of broke it down. Like, well, no, it's getting into the nitty gritty. This is about slogging through the mud a little bit and then celebrating when you get to wash yourself off, but then you get back in the mud again and sooner or later, you're not so muddy, so. Yeah, I like that, good analogy. You're good with the analogies, aren't you? I'm the analogy guy, analogy kingpin. That's what I'm gonna, that's a kingpin status. Because imagine you with your family. No, another analogy. Just tell me, please, please stop. Oh, God. Yeah, a little bit. They just don't pay attention at this point. I spend all this time in front of a camera speaking all words, writing furiously, just pounding on keyboards. And then I said, did you take out the garbage? Like, you know, you know, we're going to school. Yeah, that's, there's no, there's no pain in mind to what dad's doing over there. So it's, yeah. Yeah, I care that like with my friends and family, it's like, oh, your friends and family must be so lucky to have you. They wouldn't come to me if they're in peril. They can't stab me. There is no shot. I cannot help it any of y'all, but nobody's asking for it. I get that. That's a good point, though. Like, you know, we can touch on that for 30 seconds or so. You couldn't anyway, even as an author, a recognized expert, somebody with a lot of social cloud, you know, your credentials, your qualifications, you couldn't treat your family and friends anyway. So it's important to recognize where your help can come from. You can't, you couldn't treat your partner because you have a relationship with that person. Yeah, dual relationships don't work not only in the therapy room, but in general. I mean, friends that end up living together or working together or going to business together. It's a dual relationship. Things will break down. You've got to be really quite careful about that. It's a bit different when you meet people professionally and the dynamic is built upon that professional relationship first, but when you're two friends that know each other personally, intimately on from different playing fields, whatever, and then you try and form a new dynamic and stuff, it's it's difficult, I think. Even so, now I was thinking I had a friend who was back on the topic of hair again. It was a barber and obviously I used to I used to go in and he used to give me like discounted haircuts and stuff. And I don't I wouldn't mind paying full price, but he was just felt so awkward about having to say, right, no, you have to pay full price now. And and the awkwardness there of the dual relationship that existed just from giving me a 10 minute haircut, you know, because of because of what can happen. So can imagine trying to do that in therapy now. Just impossible really hard. And I think it's also why your partner, your family, your close, your best friend forever can't really be the person who shepherds you through your recovery. They could certainly be cheerleaders and be supportive. You need your family and social support, but those people can't be. And that's why let's bring let's bring it back around here because we got to be doing that. That's why courses like Josh's or books like you and I have written and these podcasts and all that stuff. That's why they're important and therapy, professional, actual qualified help. So yeah, excellent. Yeah, you've taken an interest in that. I've taken a minor interest in that. Yes. So I'm excited. That's going to be fun. I'd have absolutely loved it if I walked in day one, panic disorder. I feel like a realisation, dissociation. I'm like, I think I'm losing my mind. My doctor's just told me looks more frightened than I do. I'm constantly scanning, obsessing how I feel. Can't eat, can't sleep, panicking wave after wave of panic and anxiety attacks, can't go to work. I walk in and my therapist is huge and you said, well, this is what's happening. Honestly, it has saved me a lot of work. Yeah, it really would have, right? So I get that. Well, at some point, I will hopefully have the chance to do that. So we will see. And then you stop playing the guitar and it triggers everything again. Oh, God. Yeah, that's what I said. There is no if you want to talk about trauma, listening to me, not enough therapy in the world to get you past that. Anyway, I will make sure that all the links for the course and everything are on my website for this, which would be at the anxious treat dot com slash one seven six if you want all the links. But how can people get get to the course and check you out? You can go to the if you want to sneak peek it. This website is live. I've not announced it yet. It's a school of anxiety dot com. I'm trying to steal what James Clear did with his habit school and completely plagiarise his idea. But legally, if you're listening, if you're listening, James Clear, it's all legal. Yeah, it's a school of anxiety dot com. And this is just everything on there. But yeah, I mean, I'm I'm pretty excited for it. And I really appreciate you having me on, Drew. I think it's a really good thing, a really kind thing for you to do any time. Always happy to support. And it's a good thing and it's useful. So I will tell everybody, go check it out. I'm watching the course and it's it's really good. It's just really good. It's very, very helpful. So I would take it, you know, if I needed it, I would certainly take it. So there you go. Oh, good. Anyway, my friend, thank you for coming on. I'm going to make you sit awkwardly through me recording the outro to the podcast, including the music. But I thank you for coming on. I appreciate it's always going to make you laugh during the outro. You could try. I'm just going to cover my eyes so that I can't see it. But anyway, guys, thanks for coming by. You can go to the anxious treat dot com slash one seven six. That will all Josh's links for the course and everything. He's making funny faces at me. He's dancing as everything is right there. And I will leave you as always with asking a favor, which is if you are listening on iTunes or some platform that lets you rate or review the podcast and leave us five stars because damn it, we're worth it. Aren't we, Josh? Five. Absolutely. Five full stars. Oh, yes. Yeah, I gave you a podcast. Five stars before I met you. Excellent, man. That's what I appreciate. Yeah, so five stars if you can rate a review and then write a quick couple of sentences about why you dig the podcast because it helps other people find it and then we can help even more people, which is great. And I will leave you as always with Afterglow by my buddy, Ben Drake, musician from the UK, Josh's neighborhood. If you want to find Ben, you can find him at Ben Drake music dot com. So enjoy it. Thanks for coming by. See you guys next week. This is where your story begins. You've got the feeling that you're gonna.