 Hello and welcome to the Arts Link Assembly 2021. Here we are at least sitting in a room together but live streaming around the world, so welcome. I'm joining you from Lenapehoking, which is the native land of the Lenapeh people and we pay respects to the indigenous communities whose land we now occupy. The Arts Link Assembly, as you probably know, is our annual meeting when we bring together transnational artists, curators and arts workers. And this session is really looking at the impact of arts practice and the way independent artists will really develop their future practice post-pandemic. The pandemic had a huge impact on all communities and artists were impacted severely. We commissioned a group of artists around the world, which we called the Future Fellows, to create manifestos about how they saw the future of independent arts practice without the structural support of arts institutions and how they could develop approaches to sustainability and an ongoing independent practice. So this session is really an extension of that thinking. We have the Arts Link International Fellows here today and we are really diving into some of the ideas that the manifestos proposed. If you're curious about the manifestos, they're all on our website on the Arts Link Assembly 2021 page. I'm delighted that this session will be moderated by Kendall Henry. Kendall is both an artist, but also the leader of public art in New York City and a longtime collaborator with Arts Link. So Kendall, over to you. Thank you, Simon. It's great to be sitting here with all of you and before we really get into our conversation, one of the things that, as Simon mentioned, we're in the middle of a pandemic and that has really has an effect on a lot of us and I just want to start by asking, how are you? How are you doing? Because as artists I always, anybody is always doing what it is that we do and sometimes nobody ever asks. So I'm asking and I'm asking all of you. How are you? Very good, thank you. How have you coped with this past year? How is it, what effect has it had on you emotionally before we go into talking about the art, you know? So I think that's important for us to sort of put out there. My first travel, somewhere, by plane, during the year. My first travel too and it's about doing it was fantastic. Yeah, it was crazy time because it was kind of stressful when you get used to have audience, you get used to play big concerts or meet people but you had to stay like one year just at one place. It was kind of stressful and I thought that arts will never be the same that people will forget about this. And but it was kind of opposite situation. Arts was the one thing that actually helped people to survive. That's what I felt, yes. Well, I totally agree with you. We had the same in Egypt. It was really stressful but people somehow, artists become very creative and they decided to do these creative pieces online and in order to connect to their audience. So it was really amazing what happened during the pandemic because somehow we explored different and new ideas and platforms and now I think from like six months ago we began to open our spaces again and have this, we can say begin to build, rebuild our connection again personally with a limited number of audience of course but we are trying again to continue our work. So Iman, you and I shot are sort of dependent on an audience as a musician, as an actor. So that that might have affected you even more so that then you can communicate because you use that energy in the theater and the space is what drives you sometimes, I would assume. And so that product will protect you much more. But for those of you who are working individually as independent artists, how has that been for you in the past year and unchanged? I'm afraid to be mean to some of other people but I understood that all time I was of quarantine because I didn't feel really big changes because I do live in a village, always work in a studio. So it was probably easy for me to accept this new reality and I was prepared. You're lucky. I know, this is I am afraid to say this, just forgive me people who have experienced it differently. For me as a visual artist, it's really hard to not catch all this visual information from the outside and to be inside, indoors. And now these days I'm feeling very happy to be outside with you and to art physically. I think one of the positive things what the pandemic has done is like, I feel like become more sensitive. So, but also like with like traveling or seeing an exhibition or performance alive or meeting a person, it's sort of like a more intense experience because there's been too long the screen and I value that. For me, my practice relies on gathering people and creating tables of sharing food and sitting together. So somehow the pandemic was quite a moment for reflection. But as well, it had its good aspects because I was rethinking this need of us sitting together. So I wanted to create tables with more intimate interaction. So I changed the number from 65 seated guests to 20. And that I think something that is really, it's a shift in my practice but it took a pandemic to create that. And so I'm hearing a lot of, and I've had the opportunity to speak to some of you yesterday and about your practices but how has that shifted and for you, it's sort of like making it more intimate and as a result that you discovered, oh, this is a little better. But for the rest of you, particularly those of you who need an audience, how has that shifted this idea of you can't engage with a physical person? How has it affected your work? Well, it's deeply affected our work because as you said, our work is really depending on having audience and life arts can find lots of difficulties to be performed online and digitally. But we are trying to, we try to adapt. We try to do workshops online. We try to have very small people or very amount of small people in bigger rooms so we can have the social distancing and try to continue working with them. It was difficult, but we are trying to do our best to survive and continue our work. By the other hand, in a stressful situation, you have kind of extra strength and you need to think and find the way how to keep doing what you do and we made some amount of the online concerts. And what I really realized, the technology now is on this kind of very high level and you can gather all people and you can see those people on a screen and still play. And so like I was, it was the experience that I really live in the future now. So yes. And so did you have to change your content for that platform a little bit to sort of make it work and? Actually, no. We did what we do. We played music, but the only problem was with internet and technical things, but the content was the same. And what about sharing a meal? I mean, the idea of sitting around a table and eating and smelling the food and talking to the people and hearing the glasses clink and all these kinds of things is Thanksgiving's coming up. It's sort of what makes it like such a thing. So how has that changed? For me, I was exploring other mediums. So I was exploring writing more during the pandemic because I couldn't, you know. You need the physical presence of people. You need people to taste and that technology didn't offer. Not really. Not really. So yeah, I was exploring other like writing, but ceramic making and making all that as part of my practice with food. So it's not, so it's writing about food and it's creating ceramics that are part of the eating experience after the pandemic. So it was lots of preparation for the moment when somehow we can gather again. During the lockdown, I was giving more workshops. So I was focusing on the educational part of, because everybody was home, so I was creating those connections on Zoom or we were cooking together, talking around food. So creating the slinks over different kitchens all over the world. Yeah. For me, when the lockdown started, we just, a few months as we started there's more contemporary art, artists that was initiated for Emora Pertumaritha and Gunnarikas Mariba. So we just continue work on with our students and for all of us, it was very important because everyone had some kind of emotional support for each other. So we felt like we had to get this off. And that's why we just continued to work also with our students now because it was so strong, you know, effect on everyone and we were really staying together. We had like our meetings every week. And it's really like, they were also transforming. So they were like, some of them even like left their jobs and became like artists. So we was like, what are we doing actually? So it was very important for all of us. It was a lot of Zoom meetings. And actually, video calls have became my guilty pleasure. Oh, you like that stuff? Yeah, but that's a secret. Don't tell to anyone. Yeah, when Georgia, in Georgia exhibitions were like forbidden in this period, I tried to expand my practice, did some set specific works in a public space like natural stations. And for me, actually pandemic was kind of a part of surviving which really worked for me to expand my practices. So Zoom was your guilty pleasure. We're not going to talk about it. But a lot of people saw it as for good or for bad reasons, whatever. So I had an opportunity to reach new audiences, right? So all of a sudden, you don't have to travel to go to a concert or go to the theater. You could sit in your living room in your pajamas and experiencing the artwork. So how many of you see that, let's say the after pandemic, post COVID or whatever, if that's gonna happen, will sort of carry on doing some of those virtual programming? Well, for me, it's become my future project because somehow we saw as an artist in Egypt the opportunities in the digital world. And that's why I decided to, okay, I need to explore more, understand this arena more and also to try to find the right format of what kind of art forms that we can present on this. Because we tried to present performances online. It was good for a while, but somehow we began to lose the interest of our audience because it's a life connection. It's a life performances we cannot do all the time online. But maybe if we find the right format, something is written and be performed and presented for the digital platforms, it can work. So this is my research now and I'm trying to do this with my team in Egypt, how we can explore this arena more. And in your research so far, and I know it's still in its early releases, is there anything that's looking like it's heading in a particular direction that will work or it's? The timing. What's that mean? The performance must not be long. We need to have short versions of performances. People really online don't have time to sit for two hours to see a performance. But maybe if they can have like 10 minutes, 15 minutes, they can do it. That's all the time? Yeah, for performance, yeah, yeah. I would like to bring the words from one commentary, which is actually was such a brilliant achievement. Even we couldn't, I mean, me and my colleagues imagine. So we did actually six hour Zoom meeting. Yeah, I know about that. Yes, we see different groups. There were right radicals, left people, intellectuals like sophisticated. In the same room? In Zoom. Do we have any dangerous? Yeah, no, it was so amazing. I would say if it would happen physically, it could be really problematic. And you just could make the sound a bit less and then you're just absolutely comfortable to listen all this kind of discussion or argument, which became kind of interesting. And I must say that to bring groups from so far away, it's really possible in Zoom. Who has experienced a lot of new audiences? We started actually, we wanted to make a sign about pandemic and reflect in poetry, collect different poetry pieces and also with added images. So we made like a zine, a relapse that means fusion and we publish it. And after we really like it and so now we start to publication program for almost all our projects. So if we have big project, we made like also collecting and it's like, and it's really like a journal with a critical analysis, with a good articles that we just produced together as a school of contemporary art. And I think for our region, it's very important because we don't have any like journal or contemporary art or something like this. So these practices, I think, very valuable. And yeah, it makes, I think also we will publish a lot of books or something like this, but it started just from simple, these are just to reflect on our like post pandemic situation. So the other side of that though is you all artists, some of you have started organizations that support other artists and the platform. How do you deal with the financial aspect of our lack there are to offer programming and for free? So how does the finances come into play with this stuff when you do a concert or you do a play or you do a dinner thing? How does that work with that platform? Well, there was a nice thing that people were paying for the time that you would spend when suddenly you give a workshop. But then there was, I did an online residency that was supposed to be an actual one. And then, so there was the sensibility in institutions that they understood the position of artists at such times and they were supporting. Many grants came out for artists who want to produce something during the lockdown and they need some kind of support because there's still bills to pay and grants to be paid. So it was a moment I think for me that I saw the institutions that were doing this and I appreciated that, the intention even if I didn't apply, but just like this institution has the sensibility and it's good to remember that. So, but for me personally, all the plans that I had for 2022 were moved to 2021. And then I had to work two years for one year. So it was a crazy time of work. And I think many artists had a very intense year of work in 2021 that was exhausting on so many of us just because we were cramming everything. Everybody now wants to go and to perform and to do things and to gather people. So there's this, you know, this break but then there's exhaustion after this break. How do you deal with that aspect of it, particularly the ones and some of you with the organizations? For us, it was very, it was interesting because actually we don't have also galleries or like something that you can support artists and we don't have any governmental support. So I feel that for us it was the same before pandemic because we don't have money at all. I mean, you know, it's like no difference, but anyway, and we also, I mean, if we present it like at exhibition, it's most of the time like not paid. I mean, it's our art scene. It's mostly do not earn money with the art. So that's why it was like not so big impact but what we did, our artist from Bishkek, they made an online platform to sell Central Asian art. So everyone can just put there what they want to sell and it was also for some artists. I know them, like, yeah, for them, it was very helpful because they can sell everything and it was, you know, it was commitment of understanding. For example, like someone bought your work from other countries and they sent money but work can be, you know, send it like in one hour in one year or, you know, it's when it comes, I also have this work that I should already, you know, deliver after when we can, you know, manage the scene. I was running an art residency during that time and luckily it's a state-funded residency so the funding didn't go anywhere but this place only makes sense when you keep engaging with the community. So it can't just be only online programming and then I think it was really tough because it was so much rescheduling. You just became like a master of rescheduling constantly but then you also became very fit. It was like a fitness. Like whenever there was possibility to open the doors then you just went for it. And of course we're lucky but you sort of adapted to this rhythm of the ways and the openings and closings, yeah. What was also really good that people around were kind of understanding that you don't have a possibility to play your music to perform and they were trying to help. Like for example, we could focus on the recording and making some videos and people from the recording studio made us like a half price and things like that because they knew, well, first of all they didn't have any work as well but they knew that we cannot pay but it is very good time to focus on the recording because it takes time and as soon as you cannot work and perform but you can record. So yes, and people kind of were contributing not money but like the facilities or the tools and things like that and it's really helped. Muna, you talked about you're appreciating some of the institutions to support the artists. And that has happened quite a few places. It happened here as well. But it was interesting when I was listening to some of the future fellow's manifestos sort of the separation between from the institution with the artists and artists having to work on their own. So I'm curious from all of you what is the role of the institution in your practice or what should the role of the institutions be in your practice? Or how should institutions support artists? There's three different kinds of questions there but I'm just curious. When's it start? I can start. That's also what kind of institution because it's a very important question because sometimes it can be institution like garage in Moscow that really like run with an oligarch. So people who don't know what garage is so you understand a little bit. Museum of Contemporary Art Garage in Moscow that runs by Abramovich like oligarch and they have super horizontal relationship, no vertical relationship and they really using and exploiting art workers. And if they do not like something they can just kick out the person that was my friend. Like he just threw it them away without any kind of ethics and whatever. And they also think like it's quite high salary for Moscow but they ask them do more, you know they're really exploiting art workers. And it can be like institution like Heart Park Art Center in Chicago where I was for my residency. And they have really like I mean even like structurally it's like vertical but I mean you feel very horizontal like with all staff members, with all team. You feel like you know like person in person relationship that no one just put them highest and anyone and they really support, they really care. And yeah it's very you know very comfortable to work with them because you know you trust each other and you just have a main goal to make this work better. But yeah and also if like in our country it's mostly like self-organized institution and it's also good. I mean but they're quite small and very like vulnerable for any kind of financial questions because there is no any finance usually. So you should somehow manage this. So in our country we can say that institution growing it's like development but I really don't want have a side thing like opposite this very toxic relationship in art, you know art production because it's really you know I met such kind of things a lot like also Valk Foundation in Moscow. They also they made like festival during like one year almost they were preparing festival about migrants and one day like one week before they just cancel it and they didn't inform participant. I saw it in like their Facebook, you know. It's very crucial questions about institutions. Thank you for raising this but it's really depends what kind of institutions. Yeah and I know that some institutions and that we're using that word that institutions very broadly think they're doing something good for the artist but without asking the artist if that what they want. So again I think it's very serious issue to sort of bring up in particular if those people want to support artists are listening so it's important for, I'm really curious what does that look like for the institutions? I can make commentary about German fund who actually asked me and other two colleagues they said oh we had to make a conference it's not going to happen because pandemic they have this Zoom maybe you can do something with this Zoom and we suggested them to make kind of activist project to collect different stories from different groups in Ukraine how they actually less or more suffer of the pandemic and then it became such a beautiful initiative which is almost anthropological research how different groups actually receive this challenge and we are working till now on this project and they found more and more money and give us and the moment we are preparing comics which we is going to do after introduce this scientist of course about how immunity works and how vaccine actually works in body and all the story it's kind of in a very ironical way and funny heroes which we invented for each this element of immune system so and this doctors said oh my god if I would be ministry of this kind of we got this department new department in Ukraine which is kind of defense the problems related to pandemic I said oh I would you artists are really great actually people to make society not polarized but to make it's more solved and create platform to listen every time for instance just one example that in Ukraine it was like stay at home and then we found out there are so many homeless people they didn't have home how they could stay at home if they are home it's a city so this one of the example and we draw all the stories and comics well in my case I had really good relationship with many institutions in the Arab region and internationally and some of the institution I never even had any cooperation between them and they decided to support me and support my institution during the pandemic and the lockdown and locally one of the collaborators I have worked with which is a big institution that support us with giving us the space during the pandemic by the end of the lockdown they decided although they decided not to open their space for events but they wanted us to continue our work there so they opened their space for us of course after using the precaution measurements but they opened the space and they asked us okay you can come and continue your work we are not opening for events so it will be like limited number of people in the space but you can come so it's a kind of support as well also as Ashok was saying there was like sharing resources from people like from private companies like I have many friends who work at studios and they decided okay we will share our resources with you sometimes for free and sometimes for very low amount of money and that was great during this time I think the pandemic really rises the empathy and the sense of sharing and loving between people and everybody decided okay it's time that we need to be connected it's time that we need to reflect and think more about what we want to do in the future and it has to be together any other? I can now I just want to underline I think it's so important that every art institution would sort of reconfigure itself what it was before pandemic and now during or after like you can't continue there's just some moments in life or in the world like 9-11 or this pandemic where it's like please don't continue the same way because the world has changed and yeah I just want to point out there was an amazing residency from Finland Kona Foundation and they turned their whole system so that they let artists to turn their lockdown into a home residency so they were funding artists to a residency in their home and I think that's like an amazing example you just have to trust because artists will keep working it's not like now it's lockdown now they're sleeping at home no they are working at home well it sounds like Finland knows the value of artists so and as a result supporting them so there's good examples for me um my art usually, oh sorry yeah usually needs money to produce it so um in this period I had to take some money from institutions yeah but sometimes I wish but we're saying this is a bad thing we're just trying to find out but sometimes I wish to just live in the village and do music as Katja does or go in the nature just eat mushrooms and fruits just be in the nature without any any anything else that sounds pretty good you know yeah right it was obvious that in this sort of time you cannot be just an artist or just a musician doing your music and that's it it was all about the collaboration and supporting so I think everyone were understanding that and uh we were supported by NBC of Switzerland who supports arts in our region um and the project was to because of in many cities the theatres because of the pandemic were dying no one were like in the theatre so we went with a kind of rock tour but in the theatres so people could come uh remember that there is a theatre still and um but like enjoy also the music there so uh it was everything was about the support so it yes that's why it was very you know important I would also say maybe that I agree with Anne that it's important to think what will happen now in post-pandemic period because uh during the pandemics for example I don't know if that was in the same case in your countries but we were supported artists received support from the government which was great uh so almost a year you received like a basic salary uh you didn't have this you're like what no yeah because for example I know for some countries that they didn't but uh in Slovenia it was the case and I'm personally very grateful for that some people thought that it's not enough of course it depends on the expenses that you pay in life but that was really good like you could continue your work and you received like a basic salary which was the first time you know for the independent artists supported by everybody's looking like that like you know weird like because not no I don't think many people got that yeah it was supported by Ministry of Culture it was for the artists that are you know part of uh supported in general or accepted uh to be part of uh Ministry of Culture as independent artists not everybody's there but there's quite some people I think two or three thousand uh I mean Slovenia is a small country this number doesn't mean a lot to you but anyways that was really good uh but now it's stopped so and uh in the case of uh independent performers uh you know performances drop down so now I think it's a little bit more worrisome what uh how things will go on because there are less performances less concerts things for the traction that feel I would like not to be mean to my country to Ukraine so we got uh tax holiday also not bad tax tax holiday but you should pay a lot of taxes but anyway we do but so we could not pay this it's again some support for artists or for everyone for artists you had to apply what kind of interpreter you have it was depend what kind of activity you have so this was so it's only in Ukraine I know that in Germany they really also support artists by just giving them salary and in our country there was no any support sometimes they brought like some bags of food for poor people but it was only things that they really supported for people like any kind of people and yeah uh from international organization with whom we work like in Central Asia a lot only actually see see arts things supported artists they gave just some stupence for artists and it was only one no real concern and Kendall tell us how it was in New York City how it has changed during the pandemic here so so um we had like a part of like about 25 million dollars that we that artists could apply for is called the artist artist core and so these are like 5,000 dollar grants that artists could apply for through through NYFA one of the organizations here the way it worked is that so whatever an artist does they have to have a public component and that public component could be anything it could be you have an exhibition of your work in your living room or you could sit in the corner of the street and sing a song or something to people so it was very it was left very loose and open so anybody could apply there was no you didn't need to prove you're an artist necessarily and then it went into a lottery and then you were given your 5,000 dollars yeah it was like a lottery like you know it wasn't because as you could imagine there were 7,000 artists here and it came in waves in terms of the funding and so put it up pick up the name 5,000 was the whole year or it was a one-time thing so it's just not a lot in New York that is not a lot in New York but it was one of the little things that was time to you know activate recognize that artists are so when you say what you did what happened people are like what I mean yeah that basic income really helped if you were part I mean there are still artists who didn't receive it but many of us did so I'm grateful for that so it was not so bad in that term because you could still work on your things the whole year and you felt safe but this is not the case now this stopped I think when did this stop? June I think so what I'm hearing is it's very important that institutions and governments support artists but in a way that allows them to do what it is that they do to some level not control content like what's happening in a place like the government arts or institutions like that but just allow you to do is very important to a cultural identity but did the artists for example that didn't get the support in here New York did they shift the jobs or how did they survive? well it's always it's a challenge for artists to survive here anyway you know this is New York City where the food is expensive the rent is expensive and artists have something that we call dual rent if you have a studio and if you have your home you pay two types of rent and if you don't have a studio that limits the type of work you do so there's a lot of complications in being an artist in New York the city provides some support in many different ways subsidized along with some businesses subsidized studios through programs but it's never right so during the pandemic yes a lot of artists suffered greatly and some of them have moved out and only now people are beginning to come back slowly but what was really surprising is that there was a lot of opportunities as well for artists to do work and artists took it upon themselves mostly to organize which is again something that a lot of artists are deciding to do together and they had artist talks in unzoom and I attended many of them throughout the pandemic and it was great because new audiences were gathered through those different formats which is why I brought that question but it was fantastic but yeah we all need to do more particularly those in cities where culture is a huge part of it and we do do a lot but I don't think it's ever enough which brings us to your residencies so one of the things that that's always curious about going to another country is these preconceived ideas as to what those countries are or how they operate I remember my first time in Russia in 2005 when most of my knowledge of Russia was from American propaganda so I didn't expect to see to me it was going to be great there's like no young people anywhere and to my pleasant surprise I landed in St. Petersburg and it was one of the most beautiful cities in the world to me and the population, the youth and the energy is incredible and I remember when I went to Ukraine for the first time just a few years ago now surprised by all the cats and the celebration of the cats in Ukraine I don't know about the other cities but I'm like okay so I'm curious some of you in your residencies this is the first time you've been to that city or been to the United States what are some of the preconceived ideas that you had and how that has that change or what are some of the things you're like this is odd or interesting just lighten it up for a little bit do you have any of those antidotes? I was in Austin, Texas this was my first time there and I was really impressed with the sky with the sky there's a lot of it huge deepest so yeah this is my impression yeah I also was first time in the US but thank you to Hollywood that they gave us a lot of understanding and imaginary that I'm in New York but almost I was here many times before but I was in Kansas state and actually I must say America is so positive actually in Kansas for sure such as we not so mean and sour like people in Ukraine can be mostly old generation I don't know what they play or they are like this or they are just happy so this is the first thing pretty positive and also as far as I understood that actually Kansas is very kind of there's a lot of space it's also couldn't imagine and it's actually not compatible to for instance Ukrainian step which we have so nature is different so nature is not so much in Hollywood so I was impressed to experience and when I was talking to you yesterday you mentioned in the Ukraine you have invasive species and that you saw it here in its natural environment and that was exciting to you yes sure this is I came with this project because I was researching in Ukraine that some of invasive species were like in negative way called by my Ukrainian neighbors American I just went to clean their reputation to see them peaceful so I saw but that there are also some native species in Ukraine which is peaceful and I feel like them and they are bad guys over here so it goes both ways exactly and actually it's funny that here also people say Russian mustard this is garlic mustard like to put all hate on the plant which is actually they brought here in botanical world it's called introduced actually garlic mustard couldn't use a boat to be flagged take a flight ok but somebody have seeds in the pocket but still it was not as garlic mustard to be here so this is interesting phenomenon how humans in general here in the United States and in Ukraine like not to have a responsibility of what they did in the past I want to hear more about the garlic mustard but anybody else had like really weird like oh so what happened here for me it was the big diversity of how big country is really and I felt like I'm not in one country but in different countries because I traveled like from Portland, San Francisco and Seattle, Chicago and New York and for me it was like different countries not different cities because people are so different to each other and they have like very very different point of views and yes and I felt strange because of that why strange I don't know because like when you're somewhere in Europe it's more or less like you understand that you're in Czech Republic in Brno or in Prague but you understand that you're in Czech Republic but here you can go to the Chinatown and there are some people who don't even speak English and this is kind of a very contrast feeling I mean I was already in the United States when we met once in New York also our thing program but in Chicago I was in first time and I think it's really changed my actually understanding first but the first thing I was really like impressed I mean like that there is a very beautiful lake like site in Chigán it's super beautiful and I really like to walk there but I noticed that signs that like park closes at 11pm so for me like first funny that like how park all the lake can be closed I was like I want to see this actually and I just started ask people why it's like closed I mean what is the reason actually and people say that it's like can be crime or something like this so actually all people even like in high park then they do not go out after 11pm just do not because it's like dangerous and they will even like application about shootings and we also like experience this in our neighborhood like a lot of shootings happen so for me it's a very I don't know a lot of food for thinking because of like you know this if allowed to have the gun and what it means for your life because in our country it's very difficult to imagine that like one guy just put to your gun you know and here you know you can have it like on every step I don't know and people actually really scared to go out like evening and I mean yeah it's also I don't know because of like also social differences like inequality and also I explored after that there was some kind of urban racism you know it's very tough for me just to listen because for example it's like one neighborhood after another can be even just abandoned because white people living and local municipality just stop financing this you know and how it became you know like slums or whatever it's I mean it's very big issue now and I don't know how it can even be possible now in the 21st century so how has that experience I'm going to go into your your residency now in collaboration with the folks at Hyde Park how has that knowledge influenced what you were doing there as a project so I'm working during this residency about food waste and all these systems that stand behind this food system because one sort of food produced like inter globally wasted like normal food sometimes it's even like opened or you know the suit away especially here in the United States a lot of food wasted and I just took one example very common for Americans to understand like Halloween pumpkin that like really wasted like in every neighborhood tons of very healthy products that can be really it's really helped us immune like very even like take out stress so it's very useful and healthy and people do not know like how to I mean they told me it's for carving it's not for eating you know so I took one big pumpkin from Farmer Garden for free because they can't sell it anymore because you know everybody everybody already took it and make some carving so and I prepared more than 10 items different from this pumpkin like you know cheesecake and like marmalade like quiche with the pumpkin and gargantula so everything was delicious and the eating like don't believe me that it's like can be possible you know to produce and I work with the personal experience like existential experience when you just involve and after this you really everything changes you know so for me it was very important and I also have some I mean residency and collaboration communication with all people with different ages different backgrounds just gave me the idea that it's a very important issue and thanks to my art to my art practices I can develop this like and it make me it make people more understandable about this issue and they try to behave in their like real life not like artwork in the gallery space they really act like differently so for me that's the most important thing I will not look at a healthy pumpkin the same way again because you're right it's just a whole bunch of this is actually a food product that is just wasted it's just thrown out as you know so with the other collaborations in your residencies if you could talk a little bit about that like what have you done I know you've been trying to solve the issue of or explore research the issue of doing more working for example how has that been well actually my residency was at La Mama Experimental Theater and it's a great place to begin my research there especially that they begin during the pandemic to do this hybrid model of doing digital work and presented online and also nowadays they have opened their space for physical performances and it was great trying to understand how they did that what kind of technology they used what kind of performances they had to present online and how to reconnect with their audience for the physical performances but not just La Mama they were also they were great to connect me with other institutions and companies here in New York who face the same problems and they are now trying to reconnect with their audience and how they are doing that and somehow the pandemic really changed the perception of people and artists in this field because they know now that they need to be connected to others in different way not as they used to be and that's what's amazing and that's what I'm still researching for and trying to find new solutions and new formats for me to continue online and physically so your residency wasn't necessarily about creating work as a theatrical work or whatever it's sort of like now going to inform how you I work at this in this sort of type of time where people are separated and so it's a different Yes, yes, yes back in my home we really do lots of performances different kind of art forms for audience but during the pandemic and after the pandemic somehow things changed in this audience people not stopped to go to see live performances but somehow they're not interested as before so how we are going to cultivate new audience and how we are going to reconnect with our old audience this is the research and this is the question we need to find an answer for and so some of you I like to hear more about residency experiences in terms of how how has that collaboration informed the work that you're already doing or has it changed it I can't for me my residency was in New York and it's not the first time that I come here so I came to a place that I know but before I came to New York I was in Iowa for a month working on the ceramic pieces that I used in the performances that I did in New York and that was quite a special experience because it was the first time for me to go to the Midwest and experience that I still had time to process that month but I did lots of work that was work I managed to stay at the studio work nine hours a day for a month so that was beautiful I had that experience especially that in in Ramallah we don't have ceramic studios and I still don't have my ceramic studio so that was important and it would have been so expensive to do that in New York so I had to go there my host institution is the invisible dog the director is Lucien Zayan he's a chef he cooks beautiful food and he has this table at his house Salamonger Sam and he hosts dinners from time to time smaller ones for 12 people so my host was passionate about food and we met before and that really made the connection go fast and for me just to jumpstart all the work and the performances and create all this vision that I had for this exact format of table smaller tables an interaction with food and eating and ceramic pieces that are new somehow to my practice or introduced in a new way in my practice new audiences but as well a new awareness that I felt from the American audience to the issue of Palestine they know more now and I think it was beautiful to witness that I didn't need to go into basics like before especially that I spent time before the dinner with people and then people are seated and the performance happens and I talk to them afterwards so I'm always curious to see how people interact and how is the experience for them so what else but you sort of introduced that topic through the idea of disappearing recipes can you talk about that a little bit that's so fascinating the research of my project Palestine hosting society is more focused on recipes from the Palestinian kitchen that aren't disappearing and the stories about that disappearance and how the map that keeps getting reconfigurated contributes to the disappearance of recipes the movement of people and for Palestinians this movement was mostly forced because of occupation and colonization throughout the recent occupation but as well as the long history of colonization we don't even remember the time when we had autonomy and we had control over our own resources and how does that shape what we eat and the way we see ourselves and how we act as well and relate to all those issues and my gateway to all those questions that are very hard is food a medium that everybody loves and everybody can relate to so that's why I create those menus that are the structure for my performance and I do those in Palestine but as well all over the world and I structure the performance in a way that speaks to people and speaks to issues that are global as well but as well very specific to the Palestinian and I think the lockdown made people realize or feel more connected to the idea of having this un-freedom of movement that you cannot as Palestinians it was never a given was always part of our daily experience and we always created ways to go around that and so during the pandemic it was it was a time for us to speak about our experiences and so I think almost all of you are delving into topics that are sometimes uncomfortable to discuss or sometimes need to be discussed but you know people don't know how to start that conversation on them and particularly here or you know wherever and I think some of your projects sort of give a good entry into having being able to have that kind of discussion conversations and so Mishra you had a project one of the many projects you wanted to do and one of the many that you actually did that in a very clever way dealt with you know the border and immigration and that sort of thing with the we talked about that a bit you mean the butterflies yeah actually this project was only for the butterflies let's say I had this secret relationship with these insets so many secrets I know and yeah I have seeded and planted the specific plants all over the Austin and created a web to support their lives because these plants are the only food for these butterflies so yeah what's the plant? this is a native milkweed which is the only food for the butterflies and the Texas is one of the key states for the immigration from Mexico to the US so yeah this project was only about me butterflies and the city this is how I somehow connected the Austin to them and yeah I had another project in a Tex-Max restaurant it was an art show and I was really excited about the concept of a Tex-Max which is like how two cultures like Mexican and American cultures are creating one and I think like culinary is one of the humans greatest achievements indeed yeah and food talks a lot about all these cultural layers and I tried to pull up some of the subjects out of them and yeah I did a couple of other projects which has connected which is connecting like six countries from all over the world yeah and Katja you've been very quiet over there just really interested in what you've been doing with the Native Americans yeah my house was the Institute of American Indian Arts in Santa Fe, New Mexico and I work with poetry and music I'm setting poetry to music and I'm focused on the interpretation and delivery of poetry through music and through visuals that I think expands the message of poetry so I also work with threatened languages and cultures like my past project was based on gypsy poetry from Balkans and Eastern Europe and it brought me to native poetry and native languages and it was a very rich experience and yeah I noticed there I mean I find this culture to be absolutely amazing and it has so much wisdom to share concerning environmental wisdom or human values and I notice also that languages actually are threatened there I mean apart from the institute where I heard few times only that students use the language in prayers or in greetings they communicate in English in Santa Fe I just noticed once that there were two Navajo women speaking in Navajo to each other otherwise it's English which I think somehow should be protected and here is my project is connected with that because next year starts a decade of international decade of indigenous languages so there's gonna be any action to persevere these languages and I would like to be part of that I hope so with the project that's cool yeah that's very interesting lost languages and lost recipes preserving some of those histories that are just yeah I think arts are for that now it's important to stress the things and through arts through music through visuals through many things so people should be part of it and be aware of what is happening so we as an artist I think we want to stress that and speak about these things that are beautiful and important what a drama right art is just philosophers I know yeah I cannot speak for them and Anne one of the themes that I have been dealing with during my residency so I did the double residency the first part in Triangle Arts Association in New York and then Grand Central Arts Center in Santana, California and one of the themes that I've been following and dealing with is migration following my own great-granduncle who migrated here last century so and through that I noticed or started to think about the global economy and how we created this system for us and basically the big part of that is when the invention of a container was introduced so I've been looking at the port areas here at State and Island area and New Jersey and then also there is kind of like a spectacle in this moment on the Long Beach on the west coast because all the container ships are sort of piling up there and just idling in one spot or I don't know many months probably and once again it sort of makes me think what kind of world we have built up for ourselves one can lay on a couch and just order stuff from China and how to rethink this that actually also the way to overcome the pandemic is like keep expanding and keep the economy going or making it grow but somehow start to take less space and yeah maybe it's very easy in European thinking yeah that's something I've been concerned with based on the spaces I've been spending my time Asha, how has your residency done it? Yeah, for me it was very important to have the experience of being involved in art life in different cities in USA to fill the diversity and to understand also to have some challenge for myself to understand what kind of things I can do being in different country, in different culture one of the challenges was my host organization was important and one of the challenges was to create poetry in English language which is it is not my native language and also the style in kind of American style, American poetry and we did collaboration with Meimi Takahashi who was my curator and she's also an artist and she made a kind of passport shape poetry book where I put my poetry and it's also kind of the issue for my country because somehow every time you need to to explain that you are artist, that you are poet, to prove somehow that, so it was kind of the symbol that I will have the finally I will have the passport and I can show it to everyone that I'm the real poet and like I was here people think about me as a poet but also we did some collaboration with Portland based artists musicians, we made a video film for about the idea of decay so I brought some videos from Uzbekistan about the RLC the Dead Sea that we have that kind of natural disaster and the artist he did some shooting video shooting of the Portland where a lot of homeless people also live and we mixed it and so it was the ideas of the decay it's the specific sort of the time so we developed it and we made the musical also collaboration we showed the movie and the soundtrack in kind of post rock style so yes and in Chicago I had a collaboration with DJ who plays the Japanese music of 80s and I myself also a Japanese translator and it was very interesting because like in America there is a lot of people who who has the interest in different cultures and like in Japanese culture as well and it was very interesting experience that my knowledge of Japanese I could use it here doing some collaborations with people with American artists as well well for me the main idea and the main thing about the fellowship was I call it mutations so it's like the origin of the apple apple was like very small and sour but as people were traveling around the world with their animals they eat the apple and apple were mutating all the time because of climate changing and places were changing and now we have like bread and sweet apple so I feel myself like this apple were like mutating all the time moving from place to place on these kind of experiences of the mutations and I mutated into the now I'm sweet you are thank you that was a good one so we're getting quite a big questions from the people who are looking at this right now and so I'm going to start asking them and they're quite interesting questions so so I will start with this one so the question is so I think it means why do communities need artists why communities need artists why are the people that you serve need you I think because that was a wow because I work in these communities for example actually my residency here was like one of the part of our big project Fresh Vegetables we started in spring and we will finish it in December with a publication so it's also about environmental issues and first we had like online but then we went to the community in Bishkek we have this landfill very huge it's like 50 hectares of burning constantly trash and we made eco-festival just in the neighborhood that's like there so it's very and there are people living there you can't breathe there actually it's very toxic polluted area and there is nothing even our government we wanted to pay attention to the problem of actually this landfill because our government took 22 millions Euro that's like huge amount of money for our country and to close this landfill and it's still like 10 years it's burning and growing so and we opened we made festivals there and we opened community centers there mostly for children and these children never saw something like this and we call it library of safe books so we made a created library because there is nothing like to as a public space public you know access to any kind of culture there is even no school to another district and it's very sad situation and it's also about in quality about environmental in quality because it's 20 minutes drive from city center when we have like park and squares and also very polluted air but there like much more and like actually I like as a creator culture worker can deal with this you know and I try to transform and actually it's my like also protest but also I'm showing alternative ways how we can actually deal with this you know and of course government should do this but I mean it's not happening and also like no any cultural institution or someone social do not do this and we made this project as like you know against of everything you know like you just do what and we actually we didn't want to do this I mean we didn't even think about this but when we started to explore the area just to speak with people they we understand that there is nothing like you know for children and for anyone they have only three masks there and sometimes children learn their like heretic language and that only thing that they have there and it's very important that we can bring a lot of you know support them and also to show them that world is different you know actually yeah as how my art really transform it and also for example when I work with wasting food it's also not about like my personal you know it's only also about community when for example we also have these leftovers everything go to city dump and it's constantly burning so we need somehow rise knowledges to like you know to work with people to create this community who can resist to all these situations and how it happens so we started just from food for we made now making now lessons English lessons for children but it's just about building communities you know to bring people together yeah so you know everything that you describe in there you know to bring to it as as an artist but you sort of doing the work as many different other government and other folks that needs to be doing that so you artist as facilitator artist as you know social engaged or whatever it is super important yeah I think it's also because I'm actually like political scientist and I'm working with analytics of urban environmental issues so it's really I mean you know to do this because not all artists can do actually to read like laws and supposed like amendments to the law so it's I just exploding also my knowledges and we also work with the like activist who make some petition on it I mean it's really you know like multi-level process it can be not on the art or like some kind workshops or only activities or just research so it's like we I just put everything there but I think you're sort of redefining what it means to be an artist as well and what an artist looks like and I think when somebody asks that question of you know why do communities need artists it's not just to make the walls pretty and to sort of make things interesting but it's sort of like to really care for the community and sort of be that advocate and be the person that's actually gonna do the work and so I think that's you answered it in a very fascinating way and as a way of this is why this is why people need artists anybody wants to take that one before I go on to the next one? Artist is the doctor for the community I think because well usually I also asked this kind of question but it's more about poetry why people need poetry because like you can swipe without poetry and my answer usually is like it's more metaphysical but the poetry talks in the language of the soul and the soul is immortal so and it's this language is much more sharp and then mathematics or something else and it's very important to remember things that are hidden and they're beyond our reality and I think like everyone at least once in the life were experiencing something beyond like or having the will to do some poetry or art piece or something else and without art without poetry without anything else that's something that makes us the human really the real ones without it we will be someone else but not the human the 100% human so that's the answer that's my answer that's my answer too artists are the soul of the society people soul you can't live without a soul which is the converted here of course so let's get another question why is it important for you to network with artists in other places in other countries why is that important basically why is it important for you to be at this residency for the mutations sweet apples sweet apples what do I have an answer because I needed here in the United States actually scientists American scientists because I'm very based on research and my host the University of Kansas and it was rich place to meet different scientists that you develop my topic which is on the plant road it's clear that if you notice you can't have knowledge of everything on biology on anthropology on other kind of things but if you get idea you believe that something is over there you should involve people who also spend a lot of time researching this topic collaborate in different way and find the space and be more listening so this is also kind of very interesting role for artists observe, listening kind of interesting because at the moment now it looks like there is so much of information but to do this job to find this type of information which is not actually in Google artists can provide this very unique or even real quick this type of information so I needed to actually scientist here but I also think that again people I think artists have this sort of way of thinking or the way of seeing that could collaborate with any field right with scientists with sports I don't even know and then create something new as a result of that that's even more special and interesting or help resolve or solve a problem that another field might have and just needing a different way of processing that and artists can do that really well and I was very welcome by Scientistic World because I was invited by post-doc from Department of Environmental Studies and QU to his students and he showed me oh look at the artist it's very important for you to know that there are these types of people to work maybe with them as first or second year students yeah it was interesting to talk to them they didn't expect that they would receive an artist and that they had surprise I would say surprise surprise so anybody else how what's the value of this collaboration I think still the idea is quite common for some people that artists are the people with great ideas original ideas these geniuses with like big highlights I don't believe in this I'm coming from the field of performing arts and it's all about collaboration and the matter of how many you create interactions even if you're a super solo artist in your studio I know many of them who are really great they need studio visits that's how your work evolves through these kind of conversations and feedback so I also have definitely answered okay because I am working with food ways and I mean just global environmental issues on food and food production so it's really global issue I mean it's not like only Kyrgyzstan has this problem it's really global system that we have now and we have like Kyrgyzstan like 6 million people and we have the United States and a lot of food waste are actually here and also this culture of wasting food it's like in dominance in Hollywood the culture mass culture that producing here it's very also influence you know to what is going on now so I work with also like political economy of food production that's mean food production and consumption it's not only question of what we can eat actually it's only politics behind and what kind of politics because I met here artist who established open kitchen and Alex and they really I was telling that how like they ask me do you have some kind of local produce food or like do all restaurant have use it or like some shops I was like almost all food in Kyrgyzstan just local if organically produce and it's just you know people like going to the like garden and picking the I don't know because and that's all what we have actually and they were like it's really like here it's like up and down you know and I think it's really I mean actually like only like 10 big transnational corporations own like more than about 80% of global food market and I think it's you know Coca Cola one of them so I mean it's mostly like from here so it's really important to research how it's here you know and it's even bringing me ideas that we and they just told that we living in heaven actually and sometimes we even do not understand this you know so that's very important just to share just to speak what we have on the table and analyze actually what they did for like first part of their research I just ask people to write or draw what they're eating actually you know and analyze this so that's why for me it was very very important country and I really want to continue to work well for me it's more about connection I'm connecting to others and explaining more about giving them information about what they don't really know because for example here in New York they don't really understand what's happening in Egypt in the art scene so they needed it to know this information and we needed together to connect and built upon that and do like built these bridges of collaboration of future collaborations so networking is it's about connecting and filling the gaps of lost information and somebody has a question about that and the question is what kind of networks are useful to your practice observing this guy what kind of networks who do you need to be in touch with who do you need to connect with what's important to your practice it's very important to have to be in touch with people the same as you the same practice poets or musicians because usually for many artists they have like extra large ego and you think you are the one and you think you are the genius and sometimes you can lost yourself in these thoughts and it's very good when you are surrounded by this kind of genius too so you can kind of compare how genius you are or maybe not learn to be humble so it's very important this kind of collaborations brings you to understand what you can do and what people do what is in your possibilities and actually when you see the real person you can like I don't know when I'm reading the classics and I cannot understand how they did it but now I see the real guy and how he talks how he behaves and I think I can do that because he is like me and we are not that far from each other so that's why for me it's very important to have this networking and to know other people how they do how they point of view I really love to watch the creators like the builders for instance or the cooks I think there is one step for them to become an artist I think it's all about the metaphor for me art is a metaphor when you create something based on the metaphor and I think I learn a lot from these creators who really are like physically doing some stuff so for me it's very important to observe how they act I think it's very important that all we so for me it's the most important maybe network, like we are our fellows because it's even hard to imagine how big art work like standing behind us and also when we collaborate with each other it also makes us more strongly it makes art more strongly and I think more I was really it was very wonderful also to meet you all and I met you for 5 minutes some of you and I agree with that as well next question what do you need as artists to be able to advance your work what do you need to advance your work we need communities and I think one thing that we as artists aspire to do through our work is to create spaces of listening or active listening to listen to each other to share because it's all about knowledge and sharing you are not alone but there are many other issues in the world and how can you see the connections between those and it's not only yeah you are not sick what was the question again what do you need as an artist to advance your work the passageways and networks and a way like ArtsLink provided for us this gateway this ticket it's creating a path that we from there can take and create something out of it just who's going to be after that you need experience experience shifting your world so when you say experience you need people to afford you the opportunity to experience things you have to look for the way to get to that experience everything we have here all of us I think it's an experience very strong one how we got here I mean of course the organization helped but we also had to push it to come here so I think you have to go for it and yeah also connecting with the artist helps a lot this is also experience experiencing each one of people here this expands your world for me it's to be open to new possibilities to have creative ideas to overcome whatever is going to happen from two years we didn't imagine the pandemic we didn't know what if we can ever face this situation but now we are talking about it we lived it and there are lots of artists are creating this new ideas and creative ideas to continue and to to reconnect with others so for me it's possibilities and ideas and creativity and I have noticed that a lot of people are looking to the artists who have come towards the other end to say oh what are they doing and how can I learn from that experience as well next question how do you see your work make a positive contribution to the communities where you work how does your work make a positive contribution you don't have to think hard about that I can just say the example when I started my performance at the poet I went to different cities and small towns in Uzbekistan performing there and after the performance people were coming to me young people and saying like I'm also doing some poetry but I don't know if it's good or not I never performed well can you give us advice and it was many times so I thought well there are so much people doing their arts and their poetry but they don't know how to use it and then I started the laboratory where I did the open call and everyone could apply it and give their poetry or what they do and then this laboratory was in the end they had the chance to perform to perform their poetry from the stage and it was like their first ever experience of being on the stage and some of the people found themselves that they want to do it more and now there are like some even the communities of the poets they gather together they do some music together because I kind of connected them with musicians and showed that there could be not only the poetry but you can mix it with music and visual arts so yeah this is just an example how my my performances helped some other people to understand what they want to do I mean just by you being contributing to your communities every single one of your projects is contributing to not even your communities in a global sense as well if it's shared so that's an important question just so that you realize the importance of who you are and what you do that's that so I answered the question for you all because it's a given you cannot survive 100% yes I have said it but it's true I'm going to move on and the last question we're going to have today is I think it's a really good one is how do you see how do you see the future for you right and for your communities post pandemic how do you see the future for you what's in your futures in bright colors and sweet apples more voices more people reclaiming their own voice their own personal voice and maybe the collective is part of it but it's personal it doesn't suppress your own individual voice and I think that what we cannot just contribute is sometimes people forget that they have their own voice and that they can suppress it in different ways and for me in my own practice I'm somehow dealing with the space of the kitchen and recipes and that's a very strong voice that has been suppressed and not being shown in media as part of the Palestinian story so I think yeah it's voices I want to hear more I also think that it's going to be in the future like even more connecting to each other like the pandemic has taught us and it's causing that way you are stronger and you know people will not feel so alone so there is a certain strength in that that you are built your own tribe globally actually maybe I'm annoying because I'm based on research and trying to get understanding of different systems as I just mentioned how plants function also about energy resources also work with war conflict to produce a lot of stuff about Russian Ukrainian war and also corruption how it's actually still exist and many things I'm more and more sometimes set and kind of lonely and for me it's again to have more and more this kind of wisdom to accept and still trying to find new information new knowledge, new discovery and also will be not so mean person kind of not old friend so for me as you said bright colors it's like true truth is also constructed it's never can be one thing it's always from which perspective you think from touristic perspective or from mediator perspective or as a gardener or for instance the person who actually experiences things by your skin, by your smell so I'm just looking, observing to get information and I don't have any forecast Anne how do you see the future I see the future of like continuing this journey of trying to understand who I am like who I am as a woman or Estonian Eastern European somebody who is born in 1990 when the fall fell and Soviet Union break up and sort of how to understand it collectively and then how to localize these like big themes, like overwhelming themes like colonialism, decolonialism what does that mean in a country that has been colonized constantly or and then another thought was like I will definitely see myself continuing these kind of exchanges going to different communities so how to make them to see and understand where I come and some hybrid conversations that come from there I'm going to hear from everybody so well, for me the future I hope it will be without visas without passports we will narrow the distance between each other and we will build collaborations I can work whatever I like I can perform anywhere in the world this is the future for me I see artists as actually prototyping people who prototyping the future so I think it's very interesting that we just bringing like imagining actually imagination is actually what we only have like the most important so we just imagine our future and like in harmony and we just bringing it and for me it's very important also like this shift in like reality because like for example what we had in a pandemic that everyone have to work from their home but they really experience that this that can be like free and also do not go everyday to work just in this suffering from this transportation and now I heard a lot of people say like no I don't want to work there is like more I just want to have more time for myself and I think it's important just for me how the labor will be all productions just switch it's kind of form of soft resistance for the system it's like not painful when you just say no for something and it will bring some kind of positive changes so for me this is very important this last period showed us that future could be very messy I'm very looking forward I can't wait to see the future I hope it will come up with surprises in a positive way and I can't wait to adapt with that so I'm looking in a very positive way for me it's hard to think about the future the time is passing by so quickly so what is future is now it's gonna pass by like this I don't know what to say but I mean for me I think it's gonna be the same path as I'm now as I said before maybe connecting more because this is really inspiring the connections more and more and just be focused on the same things that I'm doing now which as artists I think we should do like to put the spotlight on the right subjects whether it is like pointing out the things that are not working or inspiring which I'm more inclined to so putting the spotlight on the beauty which I think we all need more and more in the times that will come so beauty is important in sharing it and I said that was the last question but I lied this is the last one so how might you all maintain a connection that you made here what needs to happen how might that happen? that's a surprise because you sort of do these things and you sort of meet these people you have had these collaborations and then it's done in a for many different reasons limited time period and as a result of that you learn so much you know just talking to some of you I've known already so I think it's important to keep the connections but sometimes it's we have lives so how can we maintain that? keep collaborating do projects together that's how I'm keeping I keep connecting with my friends from school times and just try to work together yeah that's right that's a good idea simple but fantastic idea because for artists the work is like how you just are do what you create everything I think this all looks like a train named Desire and I think we should desire all the greatest things in the future all the good possibilities which will lead us to a greater world and on that note I think it's also works like a principle of the library like you have all these people like books and you don't just forget these people because you're somewhere in a different place but you keep it in mind and in different situation you just can remind someone who was doing some things and you can just email to the person like we done a project in Odessa with Mishiko together I always keep in mind that there is this kind of great artist and if there would be a possibility I would love to make a project with him and it was surprise that he also was a fellow here in America because I didn't know so yes this kind of it's working by itself you don't need to do something specifically but once you know the person, one who knows what he's able to do you think how to collaborate with him and that's it I think physical connection is very important so in terms of collaborations yes but I notice if you're not from time to time or this can be years person physically the connection gets lost so whenever you can so this includes travels I guess no video calls don't break my heart it's not the same thing no still for me I perceive it like that the physical meeting for me it's important let's meet well if I'm to be so bold on behalf of CEC I think I want to thank you all for being such great artists, participants, collaborators in not just this talk but in the residencies that you've completed because again I'm going to repeat it artists are the core and the most important individuals in any society and so this is a good example of that the things that you're doing the topics that you're discussing the issues that you're bringing up is so important so thank you thank you