 Janet has a question about Hebrews 12 one since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses Is witness here in the sense of someone testifying in court or in the sense of a spectator of an event or both? Are those saints of old watching us? Can people in heaven see us? Are they watching me take a shower Mike? Well, I hope not Yeah, I would say the answer to all those questions is a qualified yes Okay, now I don't think they're all equally in view, but all of them are in view in some way I'll try to quickly explain what I mean by that So we have no reason to suspect that residents of the spiritual world can't see what happens here for example Angels show John in the book of Revelation all sorts of things happening on earth in the book Okay, the angel isn't wearing a blindfold. He's not guessing. He sees things that are going to happen or are happening He sees the events as well as John. That's one thought angelic mediation. It's an Old Testament concept I get into it a little bit in unseen realm. I'm gonna get into it more in Book on that'll be out in the summer or fall on angels, but angelic mediation Requires that angels know what's going on in our lives Now I see that's that's about angels Mike. We're talking about, you know departed Christians. Well, that's good Good, so am I because glorified believers are like Jesus will be made like him first John 3 and so it stands to reason that Their ability and angels ability to see what's happening on earth Isn't going to be greater than those of us who are made like Christ I think we're going to at least be equal and honestly better because Christ is superior to angels All right, so if we are made like him in glorification Then I think we have every reason to think that yeah, you know, we could see what's going on on earth Now on the other hand, I think we also have good reason to suspect that we'll be more interested In what's going on in God's world than on this one In other words, I would rather be you know spending time, you know with the Lord or with some somebody like you know Some some believer I had always wanted to meet or something like that or a loved one You know on the other side than watching tray take a shower. I really would Yeah, I think what's going on in the heavenlies is going to be a lot more interesting than what's going on here So that's why again, I have this qualified. Yes kind of thing I think the primary focus here in the passage is this great cloud of witnesses thing is To part of what the question touched on and that is this idea of a witness Specifically, you know we're surrounded by believers who have finished the course and who have inherited what was promised They are witnesses You know to the fact that they have an eternal address in the household of the counsel of God They testify they witness they bear witness to God's promise being fulfilled now that this idea is Related to the ancient Near Eastern Treaty idea where again in in pagan a ancient Near Eastern religions They had the gods, you know gods were penciled in in treaties and they were listed in treaties as witnesses to a covenant being made So there there's some relationship to that in the biblical instance this kind of language Occurs in several places. I think personally the most interesting one is Psalm 89 And I'm gonna I'm gonna draw attention to an article by a Theodore Mullin now that for those of you who are really into The Divine Council you're gonna recognize that name right away. It was Mullins Harvard Semitic monographs Book, I think published in the 80s Yeah, yeah, I think it was like early 80s on the Divine Council that really you know sort of started You know interest in the in Divine Council study, you know outside things like a Dissertator, I mean it was it was a really important book and Again, I referenced it in unseen realm a few times and in other places, but he also wrote an article Called The Divine Witness and the Davidic Royal Grant Psalm 89 verses 37 through 38 Though by the way those verse references are in Hebrew in English. It's gonna be verses 36 and 37 That was from the Journal of Biblical Literature in 1983 I'm gonna post that article in the folder for newsletter subscribers But I want to quote a few things from it just so that you know what we're talking about here And how it applies to Psalm 89 that I think ultimately the Hebrews 12 So in page 208 209 Mullin writes this Within the context of the recent scholarly emphasis placed upon the use of treaty forms in the ancient Near East the Relationship between the Mosaic Covenant and the Davidic Royal Grant the Davidic Covenant has received great attention While the Sinai Covenant is most commonly associated with the Hittite Suzerainty type treaty the best parallel to the Covenant with David is found in the Royal Grants Which depict the unconditional promise of the King to the vassal as a reward for faithful service To the Suzerain to the King then he writes our focus in this article will be Psalm 89 37 through 38 again the English verses are 36 and 37 and here's what it says in English now verses 36 and 37 It says his offspring in the Psalm 89 is largely about the Davidic Covenant His offspring shall endure forever his throne as long as the Sun before me like the moon It shall be established forever a faithful witness in the skies Yeah, those are the two verses Now back to Mullin. He says this passage presents a motif not found in the Oracle of Nathan 2nd Samuel 7 That is the concept of a divine witness to the Davidic Royal Grant the witness in the heavens the aid Bashachak witness in the clouds witness in the skies of verse 38 is the Garantor of the grant and as such places the poetic promise to David in Psalm 89 Solidly both within the mythical religious Concepts associated with the Covenant motifs in the ancient Near East in this period and also within the legal requirements associated with royal grants Now I'm gonna rabbit trail from Mullin for a moment here Do any of you recognize the in the clouds phrase shakak? Again, if you've read unseen realm if you've heard me lecture, you should know where that comes from The the the other time that phrase is used is also in Psalm 89 a little earlier in the divine counsel scene Divinity and you know Psalm 89 verses 6 and 7 for who in the skies Bashachak Can be compared to the Lord who among the Bene Aileen is Like the Lord a God greatly to be feared in the counsel of the holy ones So now we're gonna come back to that because it same phrase occurs two different places in Psalm 89 One is clearly to find counsel and you have this other witness in the clouds thing going on So back to Mullin on page 214 he writes this the parallelism of verse 38 would tend to equate the witness in 38 B With the moon in 38 a this is the identification made by Delcor who notes that the image of the moon as a faithful witness Evokes the juridical imagery of treaties in the ancient Near East where the son of the moon are named as witnesses These two heavenly bodies along with heaven and earth represent natural opposites of creation which preserve the covenant with Israel or David These opposite pairs or olden gods in ancient Near East are often cited as witnesses in the Reeve that is the lawsuit Genre in the prophetic works and he gives a few references And they have it they have a two-fold function Not only do they ensure the efficacy of curses or conditions, but they also guarantee the stability of the covenant itself Hence if this witness in the heavens of verse 38 is to be identified with the moon The very nature of the universe guarantees the stability of the covenant grant The promise that the throne of the offspring would be before Yahweh like the sun in other words eternally Further connects this concept with that of the treaty witness in the ancient Near East But Mullin says on 215 216 he says yet this identification of the witness in the heavens is not wholly accepted And he doesn't accept it either. This is why he transitions here He writes this in attempting to identify the witness We should note that verse 38 does not specify a definite figure The phrase denotes a witness not the witness In the same manner it should be recognized that this witness in verse 38 is compared to but not identified with the moon Just as the throne in verse 37 is compared to But not identified with the sun Both words employ the preposition ket in Hebrew, which means like or as This places the witness in the heavens on a level comparable to that of the sun of the moon in status and function Perhaps a further clue to the position of the witness is contained in psalm 89 6 through 9 This is the divine counsel scene. So here he goes The depiction of Yahweh in his heavenly court It is most interesting that the phrase but shakak occurs twice in this psalm once in verse 7 in the form of a question And once in verse 38 in the form of a promise Both occurrences presuppose some figure who stands before Yahweh in his court If verses 6 through 9 and 37 38 are seen as integral parts of the psalm as a whole and its imagery We would assert that both introduced the concept of the covenant into the legal realm of Yahweh's assembly of Yahweh's council That's the end of the quote Now mullen goes on and he starts giving parallel data from ugaret You know where l is the lead deity of bail is the co-regent the vizier Okay Now if you again if you've read unseen realm if you've you know read any of my journal articles This is going to become important bail at ugaret is the witness to decrees of l now I use this in my dissertation along with my discussion of the witness in the clouds As as indicating look bail is the council co-regent I use that to argue that the witness here in psalm 89 is the second Yahweh In israelite thought because in israelite religion the the the head of the council wasn't L and then bail is his his vizier his co-regent his co-ruler in the israelite version It was the visible the invisible Yahweh and the visible Yahweh they occupied the two slots Yahweh occupies both slots So you have the second Yahweh as the witness Well, who's the second Yahweh? That would be jesus. So what you have here Is you have jesus Okay, the second person of the trinity the son, okay You have the son being a witness to god's covenant with david In other words, you have the eternal messianic son bearing witness to and therefore Validating the covenant of his own earthly kingship and it fits in really well with heber's six Verses 13 through 19 and we can't cover everything in in these episodes. So here we go with this We read heber's six 13 through 19 for when god made a promise to abraham Since he had no one greater by whom to swear he swore by himself saying Surely i will bless you and multiply you Verse 15 and thus abraham having patiently waited obtained the promise For people swear by something greater than themselves And in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation So when god desired desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose He guaranteed it with an oath So that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for god to lie We who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul A hope that endures into the inner place behind the curtain Now for our purposes again back to the plural witnesses. Look at what you have here You have god Validating the messianic covenant the davidic covenant the messiah is the son of david It's it's completely tied to the to psalm 89 the davidic covenant You have god validating his promise to david by means of a witness himself Just the second yahweh figure and that second yahweh figure is the same one that became incarnate as the messiah so you have you have god and jesus Promising certifying fulfilling and validating everything between themselves and they can't lie God can appeal to no higher authority Now that gets real interesting because in heber's 12 we have plural. We have the plural witnesses. This is back to the question For our purpose is going back to the plurality there We should read the plurality of heber's 12 the great cloud of witness again the witnesses in the clouds Great cloud of witnesses. We should read that against the backdrop of heber's two. What's heber's two? That's where jesus presents us presents believers to god and presents god to us In the congregation in the council This is heber's 10 their heber's two 10 through 12. We read that scene It's it's us in effect. It's believers You know who are in glory in the council being presented to god and god presented to them and jesus says look these are my siblings He is the guarantor Of the covenant So we are the witnesses in the clouds or we will be Bearing witness to what original You know what the original witness in the clouds accomplished through his own obedience After which he sat down at the right hand of the father I mean the the imagery is pretty dramatic And when you when you really get down to it and so the the cloud of witnesses idea It it does have you know real hooks back into divine council thinking And if you take it back to salm 89 god can promise by no higher authority than himself And it's the son who is the witness To that covenant he fulfills that covenant The messianic covenant and then by virtue of his becoming incarnate to fulfill that covenant We become his siblings And in glorification we are part Of the witness testimony So again, it's a really it's a theologically You know saturated passage just that one phrase and it has deep ancient ne'eraster roots Mike are you sure that they don't want to watch me take a shower? You you don't know you can't say that Elohim aren't watching me take a shower. You have no I'm gonna go out. I'm gonna go out in a limb and say that's correct. You have no idea, sir You have no idea what you're talking about because Hey Like I said, I will go out on that limb