 My name is Joram van Klaveren, I'm from the Netherlands, and I used to be a member of the PVV. It's probably a party that you do not know, and if you do know that's something special to know. It's the party of Geert Wilders, maybe you've ever heard of him, the guy with the blonde hair. It's not a real hair color. I know. But he founded the party in 2006, and it's called the PVV, the Freedom Party of the Netherlands. And the main goal of that party was to make sure that Islam was not able to grow in the Netherlands. And later on the people was to ban Islam from the Netherlands in total. Well, I'll come back to that later. Maybe it's interesting that I introduce myself a little bit. My name is Joram van Klaveren, as I said, and I grew up in a very Orthodox Protestant environment. My mother and father were members of the Reformed Church. I have an older brother, a sister, another younger brother. We went to church. We read the Bible. We did all the things that normal Christian people do. But we were members of a very strict denomination of the Christian church. So other religions were gone astray in the opinion of the theologians of my church. So that's something that you, it was not explicitly said, but it's something that you learned during the days that you get raised until, let's say, 16, 17. So I had a certain religious bias towards Islam, not specific Islam, but other religions in general. But Islam was certainly not an option to look at in a positive way whatsoever. I studied religion, comparative religion. When I got older I went to university. But you take, of course, the things you learn in your upbringing with you, so that's something I did too. And I became politically active after 9-11, because September 11, 2001 was the first day of my study of comparative religion. So it was a strange kickoff. After that, we had a murder in the Netherlands. Maybe you've heard of Theo van Gogh. He was murdered by a jihadist, a lady who was active in the United States as well. Who's from the Netherlands. I am here, Shia Ali. She was in parliament when I was an assistant of a politician back then. So the whole sphere in a political sense and in a social sense was very anti-Islam. Of course, you had terrorist attacks in London, Madrid, etc. So there was a certain time that the view that people had when it came to Islam became more negative. And I think that another thing that's very important that played a role in the way I developed myself is the fact that in Europe there is a historical bias towards Islam because of the historical clashes. And we have crusades from the Christian church towards the Islamic world. There are attacks from Ottoman Empire, for example, on the Christian part of the world. There have been clashes for hundreds of years, one side, the other side, and the other way around. And the combination of those things, the start of my comparative religion study at September 11, 2001, the fact that Theo van Gogh was murdered, my upbringing and I think the historical bias of Europe when it comes to Islam, the combination of those things made me want to become politically active. And I was searching for a party who was most anti-Islam. Well, I found that party, it was Geert Wilders from the PCC. And I did everything I could when I became a member of parliament. It was in 2009, 2010. And that's way back in the last, I think, seven, eight years after that I did everything that I could to stop Islam from growing. I tried to get legislation to ban Islamic schools in the Netherlands to ban all mosques to prohibit reading the Quran. And one time we made legislation, or we tried to make legislation, to ban Islam in general from the Netherlands, of course. And Alhamdulillah, it didn't work. But that was something that we tried. And I left Islam, sorry, I left the political party, the PVV, in 2014, 2015. And that was because it was an anti-Islam party. But in 2014, 2015, Geert Wilders was active in a rally, a right-wing rally, and I asked the people, do you want more or less Moroccans? And the whole crowd shouted less, less, less. And then he said, okay, I'll make that happen. And that was, for me, was a point that I thought, okay, I'm still anti-Islam, but this has nothing to do with anti-Islam anymore, this anti-Moroccan. So I asked him to take his words back or change it or do whatever to play it down a little bit. He said, no, why should I? So then I left. And in 2017, I stopped politics in general. I did something, I do something else now. I work for the radio and teach other things, no politics anymore. But there was one long-held desire that I had was writing an anti-Islam book, because I was still anti-Islam, only not active in the politics anymore. And I thought it would be a very important thing that all the things that I said and that anti-Islamic people and groups say that we have a theoretical basis with great grounds so we can point to the book when people have discussions and we would solve the dispute about Islam. Is Islam a religion of peace or is it something very wrong and evil when it comes to Europe or the West or the world in general? So I started writing the book. But I always had, as a Christian guy, my doubts on certain dogmas of the Christian church, for example, Trinity, the crucifixion of Christ. And I thought those were points when it comes to the Christian dogmas that are difficult to understand. But I was writing the book, but I tell it because it comes back later in my story. I tried to write the book and what I did was all the objections that I had, and those were, for example, Islam promotes terror. That's something that I thought Islam is anti-women, Islam is anti-Jewish, Islam is anti-democracy. Well, all the prejudices and all the stereotypes when it comes to Islam, I had. And what I did was starting to read and reread the articles and the books that I already read. But at some point I came across information that was at odds with the things that I was used to read and what I learned in the past. So I started writing letters to several ministers, to imams and to scholars. And one of those scholars was Abdul Hakim Murad. He's a professor from University of Cambridge. But I didn't know that. I just followed a line and thought, well, he's a scholar. So I wrote and I didn't know if people would write back because I put a little link from Wikipedia and my own page is in English as well. So I thought, okay, I give them at least the information so they know who they are talking or writing with. And after I find out who he was, I thought, well, he will never answer. But he is one of the greatest scholars in Europe when it comes to Islam. But he did. And I got a 17-page mail back with another, whoa. So I started reading and reading and reading and he asked me at the end how is it possible because you studied compared to religion at Free University where Abdul Hakim Murad also taught in the past. So he asked me what happened and what titles did you read and what's the information you got. So I gave him a list with titles. He said, okay, I know where you're coming from. I understand. And I explained that when I was younger and I was at university, the points that I mentioned earlier when it comes to the historical bias and upbringing, et cetera. But at one point in 2003, 2004, I went as a student to several mosques. And I asked several Muslims, well, what's up with Afghanistan, Taliban, et cetera, et cetera. And there was one guy who told me, well, that's what Islam wants. And he was a Muslim. And he said to me, yeah, well, I don't like it either, but that's what God wants. So we have to do that point. And then I thought, whoa, you're even more crazier than I thought. And that hardened my fuse when it came to Islam. And I told Abdul Hakim Murad as well. And he said, well, you know what the point is that you have a daughter of Islam. He said, it's a house of Islam. And you are in a little barn somewhere in the garden with all the extremist anti-Islam guys and the extreme Muslims. And so what you have to do is get out of the barn, walk into the garden, look at the house, go into the house, and then we talk again. You can ask questions again. And that's what I'm asking. Well, I'm willing to get out of the barn if you give me some information out, a map. So he gave me some information. And I started reading and reading. And in the end, yeah, I thought, OK, Islam, the teachings of Islam, I thought, OK, that it looks very much like Christianity, be polite, of course, believing in God, believing in the prophets, et cetera. But in the end, the big difference, of course, is whether the question whether is Muhammad is a prophet or not. So I thought, OK, maybe Islam, the teachings of Islam are OK. But Muhammad is still, as I learned, an anti-Christ or he is a group or all the bad things you can imagine. That was still the view that I held when it came to Prophet Muhammad. What I did was comparing him not to Jesus, because a lot of people always say you have to compare him with Jesus. But I found that illogical, because Jesus had another mission. Even when I was still not a Muslim, I thought, well, it's more fair to compare him to Moses. Because I thought, well, in the Christian church, I was brought up. They called Moses the law giver. And I thought, well, Prophet Muhammad brought a law as well, the sharia. So I thought, well, we have two guys who say they bring a law. So it's more fair that I compare those two with each other. And I thought, well, one of my objections was Muhammad used violence. And I read, of course, Moses used violence as well. And especially the guy who followed Moses when Moses died, Joshua is a prophet as well in the Old Testament. He used a lot of violence. And I compared the teachings when it came to war between the Bible and the Quran. I found out that what the Quran, for example, says, you cannot kill women, children, all the things you probably know. But in the Bible, there are passages that say the opposite. They say you have to kill women, kill them all. And of course, let's be happy that that's not what the most Christian churches teach. But there are passages in the Old Testament that say that you have to wipe out everything, even the grass. So everything has to be erased. So I thought, okay, when it comes to violence, I can no longer say that Muhammad because he fought a war and it was a defensive war. And that he is no prophet if I accept Moses and Joshua, for example. And then I went to another point and all the points that my objections against Muhammad when I compared it to other prophets, I had no grounds anymore. So in the end, I thought, well, maybe they are all no prophets. Or Muhammad is a prophet as well. That was a point for me that I had to look into my heart to see who I still believe in God. Well, if you believe in God, why do you believe God? There is a revelation if I believe in a revelation that the revelation is brought by someone or someone's. That's not an English word, but by people. And those people we call prophets. So I thought, okay, then Muhammad is a prophet. And then I realized, well, if I say Muhammad is a prophet and I believe in God, then there is a problem because then I would be a Muslim. And that's still something I didn't want to be. And so I talked to a lot of people and they say, well, if that's the case, you are a Muslim, whether you like it or not, or you must stop believing in God or something, but I couldn't. And then I thought, okay, I just park it and I don't do anything with it and I'll leave it for what it is. But if you are a believing person, whether you're not a Christian or a Buddhist or a Muslim, you want to do something with the things you believe in, especially when it's the core or the cornerstone of your life. And it was still so. I believed in God and I thought, yeah, I want to abide the laws of God. I want to do something that is good. So I had to do something with my new found information. And I started looking for a publisher to do something with the book. And the book was not already finished, but most of the parts that I found out and the new information I found out were in the book, but not yet my conversion because I didn't convert it yet. And I was looking for a Dutch, typical Dutch publisher. So it's called, in Dutch it's called the Kenneth's House. It means House of Wisdom. But they wrote it in an old style Dutch. And when you write it in old Dutch, it's typical Dutch, most nationalist guys write it in old Dutch. So you see, oh, he's a real Dutch. So that's what it is. And I thought, okay. And the publisher wrote at Kenneth's House, so the House of Wisdom in old Dutch. And they were specialized in Islamic literature. So I thought it was an anti-Islamic publisher. And I wrote them, well, I've scripted and I got it back. And I said, maybe we can meet. And yeah, all of a sudden there was a guy against me and he was sitting in front of me and he was a Muslim. Oh, you look Muslim? Yeah, I am a Muslim. It's an Islamic publisher. It's an Islamic publisher. You called it Kenneth's House. You wrote it in old Dutch. Yeah, I know. We did it on purpose. Because in that way we try to reach out for people who think that Islam is not compatible with the West or with Holland in this case. So we start talking. I told him where I was that I believed that Mohammed probably was a prophet. And I still believe in God. He said, well, you are a Muslim. But you don't know it yet. So I started reading and it took a couple of months. And after those months we were eating at home by the publisher. There was an Imam with us and some other guys, also non-Muslims. And the Imam suddenly asked me, do you believe in God? Yes or no? I said, yes. Do you believe Mohammed was a prophet? Yes or no? I said, yes. I said, well, we take the Shahada now. Or is it something you do not want to do? And then I said, yeah. I think deep in my heart I want to do it. But I cannot do it because of course, because of your family. And yeah, because I was also a right wing nationalist. I cannot become a Muslim. That's ridiculous. But I did. And yeah, it made me very happy. And I'm still very happy today. Unfortunately, a lot of people in our family, of course, are a little less happy when I did it. Some Muslims ask me, well, aren't you mad at your family? Or why aren't you disappointed? But I'm not because, especially my mother, she was very sad. She said, it's not because I'm sad because she became Muslim. She said, I would also be sad when you became a Buddhist because she thinks Christianity is the truth. So she was worried for my soul. So I couldn't be, in the first place, it's hard to be mad at your mother. But especially when somebody is mad or sad out of love. So that's something that I always try to remember. But there are a lot of, yeah, of course, the old supporters of the political party I was active in. Yeah, who are not so happy that the usual death threats and stuff like that. But that's not something that holds you back because it made me very happy. And the doubts I had is that what I told about Christianity, the doubts I had when it comes to the Trinity of God and the crucifixion, the fact in Christianity, people believed that God had to sacrifice Jesus Christ so he could forgive the world. But at the same time in the Bible it says that God is almighty and does what you want to do. And I always thought as a child, well, if you are almighty as God, why can't you just forgive? Why is there a son who had to die before you can say, OK, I forgive? So I thought it was illogical. And I still think Christianity is a nice religion. Only I didn't believe the truth with a capital T. It wasn't there for me anymore. And strangely enough, when I was writing the book, I got Islamic answers to Christian questions. And yeah, that was a point for me that I thought, yeah, it gave me a lot of rest. And my heart and my head resonated. And that's something that I didn't have before. So when I felt that, and of course you believe it, that made me in the end deciding to become a Muslim. And that's what I did. And I still am. I'm very happy. This is a short story. I don't know what the program is. Do you want to ask question people? Let's give them a round of applause for that. That was really touching. Wonderful. So we're going to do Q&A now. And we'll start with the sisters. And we'll ping-pong back and forth with the brothers. So first with the sisters, there's a mic going around. And brother, my boys, we'll come to you. Just raise your hand if you have a question, inshallah. And it looks like we'll go to sister Shah's first. This one. Salamu alaykum. So I guess what I wanted to ask you was, I personally am a reader to Islam as well. And I come from a household. My parents don't know I'm Muslim. My parents are both very Islamophobic. I think my dad is sort of probably similar to the man you once were. I still love him. It's not something I can talk about right now. It's my religion. So I guess my question to you would be, what advice would you give to someone, to your old self, maybe? And yeah, I guess I'd be interested to hear that. Thank you for the question. Is it, you can hear me? Yeah, it's a good question. What kind of advice do you give to yourself or your father or mother, maybe? Yeah, I think that one of the most important things when it comes to Islam is education and making people see that Islam is not what you see at the news or the things you always hear. And I think in America, I don't know America of course because I don't live here, but I think in America there is certain bias that we all also have in Europe because a lot of Europeans in the past went from Europe to America of course. So the historical aversion some people have against Islam because of the clashes there have been are also maybe in the American culture and especially after 9-11 of course it's bombings and terrorism etc. But at the other hand it's not like we think of Christianity when we look at the KKK for example. It's a Christian organization but it's not that most of the people don't see the KKK as a Christian organization but they claim they were or still are, I don't know if they still exist, but when it comes to Islam people do. They say okay, we see for example ISIS and that's Islam and all other Muslims are not real Muslims or they're pretending to be very democratic or law abiding etc. But it is a fact that Islam is something else and my story I wrote a book about it and I think in the Netherlands I think it's very important that people read my journey because most of the arguments people use against Islam are pointed out in the book and there's an explanation why it isn't correct and the book is being translated into English maybe if they publish it in a month or three you can give it to your father I'll send it to you and I'll write something for him in the book and maybe that opens the door and it would be nice of course if he became Muslim but if he doesn't at least he understands better what Islam is and what probably motivates you to become Muslim Thank you for your presentation, it was very insightful. The question that I have, first of all I've been to a great country and very nice people the question that I have is have you thought about going back to politics and maybe spreading what you've learned and essentially sharing with people and changing their view of the stereotype image of a Muslim Thank you Thank you for the question. I didn't think of politics and I still don't think of politics too much Of course you follow politics but I have no desire to go back I've been in politics for 12 years, you call it here the Senate and if you are in politics you have to have certain ideological motivations and I think a little bit of arrogance or being a little bit naive so you have to believe that you can change the world and I hope of course that we can change the world as a community but I have no longer the illusion that the political party can change the system and I think in the end it's not a political thing, it's something of the people and if people see that Islam is a positive force and that you contribute to a country that you contribute to your own community but also to other communities that the few of people will change if I can change and you don't know me of course but I was really anti-Islam so if somebody then told me well in about five years you will be a Muslim and you are sitting in the United States of America talking about your conversion to Islam I thought he was crazy but it did happen so I think in the end it's something that has to come out of the people itself not Muslims I'm talking about and I think that a lot of Muslims especially in Europe because I think it's a little bit different here also have to look at themselves and see why is it that people are always so negative because in the Netherlands there are a lot of Muslim youngsters, youth who are making a lot of troubles and when they are making troubles sometimes they shout Allah Akbar so non-Muslims associate Islam as a religion because they hear something with Allah and they see youngsters for example throwing in a window with a stone or whatever so the association is always violence Islam and of course they see the news, they see terrorism and they hear people like my old me telling on television well this is wrong, they are doing blah blah blah so the combination makes it very hard for non-Muslims to see Islam in a positive way and I think that the best group to show them the other side are Muslims because we are of course the ones who have to practice the teachings of Prophet Muhammad and I think if we really practice those teachings that we have a better world and it starts with yourself as a community so I'm not going back into politics but I've founded an organization it's called Anthony Jansson Association in the Netherlands and what we do or we try to do is to change by giving lectures going into the country, schools etc so we can show people that Islam is something else and that you see or what most people in Europe think and it's a I don't know if I have time but I don't know if you know who Anthony Jansson was so I never heard of him okay that's funny because it's an American yeah he became an American Anthony Jansson van Salleh his father was called Jan Jansson that means son of Jan and Jan is a typical Dutch name and it was around 1610 so a couple of hundred years ago he was a pirate for the Dutch Navy and he had to, we call it the Kaapen you have to rob Spanish ships because the Netherlands were a province of Spain then and in the end we wanted to be independent so what we did as a Dutch people we attacked Spanish ships, took their silver and gold and used it for weapons to fight against them so we used their own money to fight against the Spanish one of those guys who did that was Jan Jansson and one day he was with his ship near Spain and the Canary Islands it's near Morocco and his ship broke down and he was caught by pirates from the northern of Africa and they brought him to Salleh and that's a little place in Morocco and then they asked him well you can choose or you buy yourself free because you have a lot of money or you walk back well it's impossible of course or you become a Muslim and then he asked him what is a Muslim a narrative of a Muslim and they explained him and then he said then I'm already a Muslim and they were so impressed that they said well if you are a Muslim then you can choose or you join us you're free to go wherever you are and he said well I love the sea I love robbing Spanish ships whether you're part of your gang or whatever group it is so he became a pirate for Salleh and Salleh was a little republic and the Sultan of Salleh was so impressed with the things he did because he was a very good pirate and they robbed Dutch ships then and Spanish ships and they made him a president so he became the first president and then he married a Moroccan girl of course a Muslim as well and they got four children one of those children was called Anthony and that's the guy why my foundation is Anthony Anthony in English and he was sent to the new world with a lot of money from his father because his father became very rich and that the young son son the son of the father and the young son son Anthony Anthony Janssen van Salleh went to America because they called this new world and it wasn't America yet it was still a part of the British Empire and he went to a place called New Amsterdam and it was New York and in New York some people say well it's founded by the Dutch New Yorker they have still typical Dutch names for example Brooklyn it's Brooklyn, it's an old touch city and it's true it was founded by the Dutch but the guy who did that was a Muslim because Anthony Janssen van Salleh was the guy who founded the Bronx he developed Brooklyn they gave him, he asked them is there some land somewhere that I can buy they said no you can't because you're not a Christian they didn't want it and then he said well I pay three times what you normally ask buy the land and he gave the end and those Bronx for example and Brooklyn really were one of the first places in the New World, in New Amsterdam were developed and it was developed by Dutch Muslim so even America in the core there are and I'm not talking about slaves a rich man, a successful guy was a Muslim who was one of the founders of New York still today and another funny fact maybe is the fact that the first Koran ever brought to the United States was brought by this guy Anthony Janssen van Salleh a Dutch Moroccan guy who was a Muslim brought the Koran to America it was very funny and I thought well he was a very positive guy and when he was in New York and he was doing his thing he was of course confronted with a lot of people who didn't like him because he looked different but also because he was a Muslim but he was very steadfast and he did what he had to do he helped for example a little group called the Quakers there were Christian people who were persecuted by other Christians and he said no we have religious freedom here and it's a new country nobody is the boss of someone else so they can live on my land so he gave them room to practice their religion he bought slaves etc he did a lot of good things and I thought well that's a nice name for the organization because of the history of his father, the history of himself and the things he did and with that name I'll try and story a lot of people in the Netherlands don't know the story as well I always tell it to show people that the beginning of the United States and that's of course one of the mightiest countries in the world was also Islamic in the Koran it's always nice to show people that there's something familiar and it's not something so strange when it comes to Islam in Dutch it's Afalige and it means apostate and I choose the title because I'm an apostate of Christianity of course but it's also a wink because of the discussion about apostates in Islam As-salamu alaykum First of all thank you so very much I'm originally from what became New York what became New York was New Amsterdam and people there are a lot of Dutch names that are well known around the Hudson River and I think the Hudson was the explorer was Dutch and the Rosevelts the two president Rosevelts Dutch ancestry there's a lot of history but nobody mentioned in America that they're Dutch anyway welcome and many people don't know that the word California comes from the word Khalifa so this is another part of the Muslim history on the west coast I'm wondering when you speak to people what reaction you get do you speak about Islam do you find people are curious or more hostile are you able to change hostile people to be open minded what's your experience of course in the beginning and there are still people who are very anti-me because I don't understand but in general I have to say that most people are more interested than angry so what happened to you why so that's I think it's a good thing because you have there's space and room to start talking to each other and most of the time I ask what is your biggest problem with Islam and most of the time we try to discover while talking what his or her issue is with Islam and yeah I even got some emails from people that said well after you after I read your book of course I'm not a Muslim and I still don't like Islam but I get it so that's a little improvement so I think there's a lot of room and it's up to us as a community to show people otherwise and I think in the end as I'm still positive I think that it's possible that a lot of people will change and I think it's something else in Europe and I don't know how it is in America there's the secularization so people start believing in God and in Europe people in other parts of the world think that in Europe everybody is Christian but most of the people especially in the Netherlands aren't religious at all and the fact that they lost their religion not only in a cultural way but especially in a religious way yeah it creates a hole in people's hearts because there's a famous guy a religious scientist Eliades his name is that people are always religious and it's not that you have to be a Christian or Muslim or whatever but there is something that calls out for something bigger and he said because you are designed like that there is always you you pray for God in what form isn't so important now but he said well people and if people lose God they're going to search for something else and I think in Europe they want to they want to fill up the gap in their heart with for example nationalism but also with drugs or with partying all the time they do things to to fill the emptiness in their heart and that's something else I see big chances for Islam because I think Islam is the last real religion and a lot of people especially when I talk with Christian Protestant Christians who are very angry all the time when it comes to Islam but when you talk to them for real in a calm way they realize very fast that for example the things I my problems, theological problems with Christianity for example Trinity they they feel what I mean so that's what I always say you know that it's it's illogical well maybe it's illogical but so I see big chances for Islam as a religion to grow in a positive way especially in places where people lost faith in God maybe that's a mission we don't know but it would be nice in my day job I've had the pleasure of going to Holland quite a few times in the last few years and like many international travelers I've used Uber to get around the city in Amsterdam in particular but I was really disturbed by something and this is what I was curious about your perspective as it relates to anti-discrimination laws in the Netherlands as it relates to discrimination against Muslims as they're trying to integrate into the workforce in particular I met a Dutch young man who was driving in Uber he said he was a college grad born and raised a Pakistani descent born and raised in the Netherlands and he said that every time he goes into a job interview he's asked about his prayer habits and other things that we would in the US we would find that those are non-starters nobody gets asked about those kinds of questions here and he said to me do you think I'm driving in Uber because I choose to I can't get a job anywhere I go I'm facing these kinds of discrimination issues and then he said ultimately I identify first as Muslim then as Pakistani and then third as Dutch even though he was born in Holland and I find that as you know in this country we have at least at least we start from the premise that there are anti-discrimination laws that protect people when they are applying for jobs are there similar protections in the Netherlands or are they coming because I worry about that this large Muslim Moroccan population for example is being or Pakistani is being isolated in a ghetto where they are a mental ghetto where they really are not able to contribute more faithfully to society as a whole and are identifying with their ethnic background as opposed to like you are for example of the people and contributing broadly to the Netherlands yeah very good question yeah in the Netherlands there are a lot of anti-discrimination laws of course we have a constitution as well and the first article of the constitution is that all people should be treated equal no matter of race religion etc etc so there are a lot of laws like that in the Netherlands but there is also discrimination and I think that discrimination is something that you see all over the world all minorities minorities I talked to some people from Lebanon yesterday told me that people from Syria who fled to Lebanon are discriminated because they are from Syria and they're refugees and they're a burden for them the same is what you see in Turkey and in the Netherlands you see that with Moroccan people or Turkish people and they are not refugees but I think most of the time the majority in countries is skeptical about minorities in general but fortunately we have laws that have to prevent people from discrimination but that's not always enough because when it comes to especially commercial companies they can always say no they didn't have the papers that we were looking for or yes a weird smile or whatever that is a big problem it is and I don't have an answer for that problem but in the end you see that especially the third and fourth generation in the Netherlands are doing so much better people starting their own companies you have Islamic lawyers, Islamic doctors engineers so in the end it takes a lot of time and that's not a nice thing of course but it takes a lot of time to walk through the institutions as they say in Dutch and I believe it will change it takes so much time and that's something that a lot of people aren't willing to wait for of course and in the other side of the story is that you see especially in Eastern Europe there is a very anti-Islam movement now and it's not only in Eastern Europe but because the anti-Islamic groups are uniting in the European Union now so it became one powerful force in politics now so that's something that's very worrying and it gives a lot of the normal people as you can say the people in general in different European countries an excuse because they say well we have one third of parliament saying Muslims are wrong or create problems so it isn't that bad if we discriminate because we know they cause problems so it's something that works on several ways and it's very worrying but I think the most important thing is educate people telling people that it's wrong what they are doing and I think it's also important to promote Islam and help each other so if there is a guy with a successful company who is a Muslim you can always help other Muslims for example when it comes to we call it stashes I don't know the internships for example so you can help each other as a community it's an obligation so wouldn't you do that so I don't have a complete and satisfying answer but this is what it is Peace be upon you I have two questions about me during the discussion you were mentioning that you had Christian questions and you found actually Muslims answers could you share with us a few of those where you think these are the ones that made it for you and the second question is with your involvement with the political field and being maybe actually prior anti Islam sorry with your political movement and being anti Islam prior to you being Muslim you have mentioned that maybe most people will look at Islam based on maybe some of these terrorists around the world and maybe in Europe these actual terrorists or maybe these are actually like movements by certain governments in Europe that Islam are phobic maybe that should make Islam look bad what's your take on that actually as being involved in anti Islam movement back then okay that's a big question the first half of the question was about Christian doubts yeah my doubts had to do with especially with the Trinity because in Christianity we believed that God exists as one being but in three persons God the Father, God the Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and I always found it very hard to understand the concept because in Christianity Jesus Christ dies on the cross but he is God so God dies so I asked the minister when I was 12 or 13 how is it possible that something that is infinite infinity God is infinity or infinite how is it possible that it dies because then it is ending so that's impossible and then he is alive at the same time that's something like a square circle that's impossible and then they said well it's a mystery so yeah but you have to believe it but if I try to believe it I can't because it's a mystery and I don't found that very satisfying so that's something that and there are a lot of theologians who have very nice concepts but in the end it's coming back to the question is the God of Jesus Christ is it 1 or 3 and in the whole Bible there is no sentence in the Bible that says God is 3 and it isn't there and the parts that are referring to something that could be interpreted as 3 are added later and it's even in the Christian Bible you can see that it's almost always between we call it Hakki quotes not the one and in the Bible it says the sentences between those things are added later so in the Bible there is no there's no a reveration to God as 3 and there is even a sentence that Jesus Christ says here oh Israel your God is one well that is exactly the same as Prophet Muhammad said there is one God that's Allah so it wasn't logical for me so I the 3 thing was an issue for me and another thing I talked about earlier short it was about whether there should be a murder before God can forgive and I found that not logical because in the Bible there's a story about the protocol son it's a story that there's a father and he has two sons and it's a very rich father and it's a very successful company and one of the sons goes away and he says well dad if you use a rich and one day you will die and if you give me the money I'll get when you die you want that here is the money and he goes away and does everything he shouldn't do he's partying all the time going to hookers and I don't know what he does and he comes back totally wasted and he doesn't feel like a man anymore and he says well what am I doing suddenly I wish I've never gone away he regrets it very much and after a few years he goes back to his father and his father sees his son coming and he says to his assistant well bring him the best clothes that you have put a silver ring on his finger and let's celebrate that my son my lost son is back but the other son says well ho ho I was working all the time for you I did everything that I had to do I abide you I abide the law we pray together to God and weird really there goes and does everything wrong and you're celebrating his return and it's a story that Jesus tells in the bible and the apostles the people the Jesus followers okay what's the point here and Jesus says well the father is happy that his son returned after he did so much things wrong he still accepts him and there is no condition there's no son or whatever who had to die first or there's no slapping or no screaming there's nothing he just forgives his son and it was for me I thought well the prodigal son story that Jesus tells it's almost 180 degrees opposite of one of the dogmas of Christianity because if Jesus tells this story to show the of God how is it that the Christian church teaches that God wants to see someone gets killed first but there was another point for me that I thought well the Islamic narrative is much more logical and it's in a sense even more Christian than the Christian teachings the other part of your question I forgot sorry some of these suicide bombers were they actually suicide bombers or these are just a slow-mo-phobic movement they're actually trying to advertise actually for these people being around you know it's part of actually a proper gandale okay now well in the Netherlands I think terrorism is a real problem because you see for example Theo van Gogh Theo van Gogh he was murdered and he was murdered in the town where I lived by a guy who was very known in the area in Boucherie and he killed him we literally seen the guy doing it he was shooting with a gun after that he slid his throat he pulled a sword in his stomach he was butchered in the same in France for example in Paris in Belgium and other parts of Europe well of course in the United States as well so I think terrorism is a real problem I think there are Muslims who call themselves Muslims who do very bad things but that's not a reflection of the religion and that's what I told earlier it's the same that there were in the United States were white guys, Christian guys who burned black people and burned crosses in their backyard and lynched people hanged them on trees etc and they said well we are real protestant Christians they even hated Catholics but that's not a reflection of the teachings of the Christian church so it's of course unfair to judge a whole religion and more than 1 billion people on the the sick things a small marginal part of the group is doing and I think that it counts for all religions I think most of the religions reflect something good and of course I think the whole truth with capital T is in Islam but still I don't know I still don't think that other religions are totally wrong or people should be killed etc etc and when it comes to terrorism I think it's a real problem I think that people should be punished who act like terrorists and at the same time I think it's not a reflection of Islam there are psycho people in the world and there are Christian psychos there are Buddhist psychos in Myanmar there are people in China who are treating Uyghur Muslims as beasts those people are psycho so there are a lot of psycho people in the world but it's not a reflection of the religion not of Islam and not of Christianity and I don't think it's a reflection of Buddhism as well how they treat in Myanmar Muslims okay let's give a round of applause to our special guest thank you