 the 40 or T podcast gaslighting, which I think is a term that perhaps many people will recognize or at least know a certain amount about. So I guess like that there are particularly two types of gaslighting that spring to mind in unintentional and intentional gaslighting. So I'd really want to understand like what do those two types of things look like in different in real life in different situations. It's a very good question. So for me, I've been talking about gaslighting for like a decade now. So I like to think I was talking about it before it became cool. Gaslighting is a very, very difficult topic to talk about because it is very complicated. And I think there's many different types, but the two that I know most is unintentional and intentional. So generally, gaslighting is when someone manipulates us using psychological means into making us doubt our own sanity, live to reality, experiences or self and our memory too. And we can people can gaslight us in numerous ways, like they can gaslight us intentionally with an intention to cause harm and gain control over us, or it can be unintentional, where the intention, and this is where it gets complicated, the intention is sometimes to actually help us in particularly if we are autistic, yeah, yeah. And if we are autistic, we can be gaslighted by anyone, you know, it can be our, our family, our friends, bosses, peers, teachers or doctors. And often it comes about because people just don't know how to help us because autism is so misunderstood. And it's an invisible disability a lot of the time. We can't see those hardships that we have. And there's always this ableist sort of perfection, obsessed society that's like everyone needs to act a certain way to be good. And there's all of these things. So people try to help us by making us change our perceptions of ourselves and our reality to mold us into what they think would help us. And it doesn't always work because it doesn't help us because they don't understand what will help us and they don't understand our hardships enough to know that these things really cannot help us. So like, as you said, sort of the, the intentional one is kind of, it's used as a way to kind of manipulate people into feeling a certain way about certain things or feeling about feeling a certain way about themselves or their partner. Yeah. I've experienced intentional gaslighting before, which is it's, it's it's kind of a tricky one because I think when we think of any kind of social emotional thing, we kind of like to think about it and sort of like the moment or the, the time at which it happens. Whereas a lot of the time, these types of things tend to be very, very like background and kind of just now and again. And they just kind of like, it's not processed. Yeah, it's not, it's not like, oh, right, your gaslighting. I mean, you know, it's like, it seems to be like a, like a growing thing that just, you don't really pick up on at the time. But when you look back on things, it's, it's a lot more apparent. I think that's what makes us so vulnerable to it as well, because if we do as autistic people, if we do struggle to process information and make connections like that, it does mean that what could be really obvious to other people is just not that apparent to us. Like I could, I could feel the rain on my skin and not process that it's raining. Like, I can't, sometimes I can't even process what my own name is if I'm really shut down. So if someone's treating me badly and they're taking advantage of me, like I, you know, for instance, if someone was to like, move, like move my keys and then I, I'd be like, I know I left them on the table, but the person moved the keys and they're like, no, you definitely didn't leave it on the table. Or they'll take money out of your purse and be like, no, you never had that money to begin with. You're, you're, you're not right in the head sort of thing. And it's not, it's not right. It's not, it's not nice. But it does, it makes you doubt every, every little fiber of your own self belief. And then it just snowballs into you just not really understanding or knowing or trusting any part of your own judgment into your just, yeah, I don't know how to explain it. But that processing is a big part of it. Because I think, you know, that that kind of intentional gas lighting is something that people can perhaps like understand to a certain extent. But I think one, one area that I've, I believe is, you know, it's a little bit harder to like, for me to wrap my head around is like the unintentional aspect of it. Like, how does, how does that happen? Like, in what kind of context would that would that be a thing? So like for autistic people in general, like what I was saying to do with like trying to help us. Yeah, okay. So for example, people have or society has an idea of how autistic people should behave. And they think that it will help us. So they think we should maybe stop stimming, you know, and they might say stop stimming and stop stimming in itself is not unintentional gas lighting. But if you add on the psychological manipulation, which is stop stimming, there's no reason why you need to stim, it does not help you. And, you know, you can control it if you tried. That's the unintentional gas lighting. That's the psychological manipulation. Because it's like, I mean, it does help me. That's why I'm doing it. It's not easy to control. That's why I'm doing it. Because believe me, I'd be masking it if I could. And it does help me. And, you know, those judgments, you know, based on what society thinks would help us and also make us maybe easier to deal with, to other people. So it's kind of like, neglecting someone's, like lived experience and perceptions, just because you don't believe that that is something that people can. Yeah, that is right. Like, yes, maybe if it's because our lived reality is so different, like for other people, like a hug might not burn them. And they'd be like, well, why are you having such why not just hug them? Why not just shake their hands? Yeah, you know, and they might gas not a big issue. It's not a big issue to them because they've never experienced it. They could never perceive a reality different to their own. Because they've been sort of taught by society will help autistic people, which is generally making us mask our autism pretend that we're not autistic, which of course doesn't help us in any way. They could use this psychological manipulation, the part of the gaslighting, which would be like, there's no reason why you don't hug people that this feeling you have isn't real. There's, you know, it's impossible to feel it, that sort of thing. And like, I used to get gaslighted unintentionally by like doctors and teachers for my shut downs. And just as a background, my shut downs, I can lose the ability to walk and talk. And like I said earlier, sometimes I just I don't even I can't even access my own name. Like, I'm so shut down. I'm not the person I used to be. And when this would happen at school, it would be just, I'd be totally unable to do anything. But the doctors would be like, well, it's all in your head. It's all easily within your control if you wanted to change it. And it's an overreaction like that is impossible. So basically, the fault is then with me for something that I cannot control. And yes, because the lived reality is just so different, they could never perceive it to be real. And they teach us to be less autistic, almost. Selective mutism definitely is a thing. And it happens. Absolutely. For me, most of the time when I have a shut down, I think that's that's a really difficult part. Because I think some people, you know, as you said, they don't really get it. And at the same time, like, I think some people can have, like, personal, like, reactions to like, if they've contributed towards you having a shut down, and you're not speaking to them, and you're not replying to them, they can they can be like an air of like, and not being annoyed at you. They can take it personally. Taking it personally exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But the thing I like to sort of remember is that is get unintentional gaslighting is an intention to help. So if there is no shame when people want intentionally gaslight us because they are trying to help, they just don't know how to. And it's not really, like, you know, parents and teachers will probably save the stuff to their children and their students all the time, you know, stop stimming, make eye contact, you know, with all the psychological manipulation that make people change their reality to actually do what they think would help them. And but it's not that told that they sorry, that's not a word. It's not their fault that they were taught by society of what a toxic way of what would actually help us. And I think as long as everyone is challenging themselves, and in a healthy way, not invalidating, you know, their feelings is, it's okay that we can all sort of keep growing together because it is a learning journey.