 Good evening everyone we're going to call our meeting to order at two minutes after five and for simplicity's sake it would be great if our guests could introduce themselves at the same time after that we will all introduce ourselves just so everybody knows who everybody is how about that so however you want to do it. I'll start my name is Kristen Hayes I'm a Middlesex resident. Okay. I'm Mary Ann Y and I'm a property owner in Middlesex. I'm Barb Dupere I'm a property owner in Putnamville. I'm Olivia Dupere. I'm her daughter. I grew up in Putnamville since I was three years old. Okay. I'm Kevin Thompson. I live in Putnamville. I'll be born living in Putnamville. What's your first name? I'll be born. I'm Karen Maloney. I live in Putnamville. Karen Gennett. I live in Putnamville. Sherry Page. I live in Putnamville. James Tucker. I live in Putnamville. Okay. Thank you. My bad. And Kimberly Jessup. I serve as the state rep for Middlesex Eastbound Pillar. Thank you. Sarah Merriman on the town for his select board assistant. Liz Sharpe select board member. Peter Hood select board member and chairman. Dorinda Crowell town treasurer. Steve Martin. Select board. Fillet. Select board. Mary Skinner. So looks like this is a big night for Putnamville. Good evening. Good evening. Putnamville. Could you guys sign me? Sure. I'm John Skates. I'm with Cassella Waysley. Are you here on Putnamville issue? Yes. Okay. Thank you. Thank you one and all. Only all of our meetings. So the first item on our agenda proficiously enough so you don't have to listen to the rest of our exciting business is to consider purchasing solar powered radar signs for my route 12 to reduce speeding action possible. So you have someone from your group who is going to present this proposal. Yeah. I'll be right. Thank you. So we had a purchase on that board a while back regarding the speed coming into Putnamville and out of Putnamville being really dangerous. We asked for the speed assessment to be done. It was completed over the summer and we met with Vermont Transportation Traffic Committee on Wednesday to kind of review those results. What they determined is that they know that it is a major issue and that it is a high priority and something that they know to be ongoing and getting consistently worse. I think traffic continues to increase through the area. They've determined originally when Abby and I had presented with them we were asking them to lower the speed limit as well as address some of the signage and the visibility concerns. They had relayed that they were unable to drop it lower than the 35 because number one they did not think of that it was going to be adhered to. So they did not think that it would be worthwhile to change it if people were not actually going to slow down. And then the other piece is the Vermont legislation that requires that the miles per hour cannot drop more than 15 miles per hour in a given zone. There has to be some sort of a transition area. Exactly. They determined that there wasn't the sight lines and the area along that stretch that they could do that where it made sense they felt. So they did agree to bump the area of the 35 out on either end. So they're going to make it a wider area and they're going to move those signs back and add some additional like speed warning signs to kind of transition and warn speeders coming in that it's going to drop down to the 35 and increase the area. As far as signage they did recently do a signage project through the Putnam Hill stretch there. There are two school bus signs that basically they just took the old signs down and they just put a replacement back up. So it's nice. They're nice and bright and yellow and new but they're the exact same signs. And they're in the same place. They're in the exact same place. Yes. When we sat down with them you know one of the concerns of course is enforcement in this area. We've had a lot of we have near misses I think all the time. I think that most of the residents here can probably speak to the safety of pulling in and out of our driveways on a regular daily basis. You know on a regular basis I am taking my life and my kids hands in our hands as we're pulling in and out of there. There's just no sight lines. So you know in addition to the residences we also have three business owners that are in that stretch. And we have a lot of traffic that's coming in and out. Last week specifically there were and wasn't really near miss accident on Friday that involved one of the Cassello waste trucks that was coming through which is a regular occurrence. You know similar to the buses we do have the garbage and different kind of landscapers plowing people that are also coming through to help with residences. And they're just there's no safe way for them to access our properties especially when people are going oftentimes increasing of over 50 55 or 60 miles an hour through that stretch. It's really really dangerous on Tuesday of last week there was a car that actually overturned in front of my house on route 12 right there. So for those of you who aren't familiar with that corner Norton Road actually comes out right onto 12. I am the house directly across the street from Norton Road right on that blind sharp corner on last Tuesday in the afternoon. I got up at the big one close to the road. I'm a small one really close to the road. The big ones right next to me. Yeah. So actually there's a picture you can visualize here. So this is actually my house here if you're looking self found on route 12. These are this here is from the accident that almost happened on Friday with Cassello where Cassella had approached Norton Road where they needed to turn in and had stopped. And the truck came behind them and was flying down with a trailer behind him loaded with work equipment on it. He hit his brakes and swerved into the left hand lane which is these tracks that you'll see here. That was Friday. He luckily did not hit anyone and by the time I had I was home on vacation it happened to be. So I saw the entire accident on my window but by the time I got outside he had already peeled and took off again because he knew he was in the wrong. The second accident that happened that actually happened on Tuesday was incredibly dangerous. This is my front porch from viewing from my front porch. This is the pictures that my kids sent me at four o'clock saying when they called me at work and said mom there's a car that just crashed and is upside down on its roof. What do we do? You know I don't want my kids to be walking outside to have to identify somebody's body that's in my front yard. I really don't. This is the accident. Those are pictures from the accident. And this was all Tuesday. Yes. Yeah. You know these types of accidents happen all the time. We've been incredibly lucky I would say that up to this point you know the accidents have been more minimal but a lot of people I think don't always report everything either. You know this is a school bus stop as well which is another concern. The U32 bus stop does meet right there Route 12 in Norton Road. I've since spoken to them since this accident and the bus company has been really wonderful that they have agreed to pick up my child at my house now as opposed to making him wait there because of the concerns that I've raised. But there are other kids in the area and I anticipate that in the future there might be more kids that join the area and we'd love to have them. But parents are not going to be able to have their kids be safe. There's no where for them to get off the road that's safe in any of that stretch. So I mean just to reiterate her bus stop is a blind bus stop. The house is blind. You come down to the lechka. There's no Kirk up. It is a blind bus stop. I mean the bus that's there and coming through. I do have a letter from Richard Landon. He asked me to read it. Is that OK. He lives in Potneville. You don't mind real quick. And it kind of just adheres to what she said. I live with my wife Elaine in Potneville schoolhouse which we acquired in 1981. The speed limit sign at the Southern Approach bubble is situated on the down hill section. Many people simply don't break on the downhill section. They may let their vehicle slow naturally as it goes up the hill. This results in most drivers traveling from the middle of the town at speeds much greater than 35. The sign must be moved further south to give northbound drivers to slow down. In the 38 years I've lived here I've had a tractor trailer run through my adjacent vegetable garden. My apple tree in my front yard hit three times and also had an SUV upside down in my front yard all from northbound. He's stating. The current placement of the two speed limit signs are ineffective at keeping drivers passing through the town at a reasonable speed. Radar signs on radar signs or signs with blinking lights, LED, some sort of signage would surely help if only deployed for just a few months. This is Richard Landon of Potneville. And pretty much what he's iterating is, you know, I don't want to abide at every road in the town of Middlesex. But Route 12 in Potneville is the worst corridor in the town of Middlesex. There is no road. There is no inch of this town that is worse than what we have to deal with in Potneville. And I just kind of, this is the time that we're, this is why we're all here is because we're now finally saying something, but there is no corner in this town that is worse than what we have to deal with in Potneville. And I want to talk about, it's the volume of traffic, hundreds of cars, hundreds of state workers, Elmore, Lake Elmore, Stowe, Morrisville, JP, it's non-stop. We have more traffic than Route 2 at Camp Mead. And I will, I would put $10,000 down right now. If you hire a survey company to count the cars, we have more traffic. It is dangerous. There's more blind curves and dips and dives in that town. And, you know, there's only three of them, but they're bad. And the ledge cut is not making it much better. You know, it's just, it's just tough. You know, we try to live there. We, you know, like she said, it's dangerous to pull out. We have a blind bus stop. We have future kids moving to Potneville. There's always going to be kids getting off that school bus. And it's been a long time coming that we finally said something. We understand there's a budget. There's no doubt about it. And we're just trying to get some sort of a plan. Is there a way that the town can at least think about a plan tonight to help us out in Potneville with the signage? We believe the LED lights help. When you drive down Elm Street in front of Coteville and you see that sign, I'm not going to lie. And a lot of people do have radar detectors these days. And all of a sudden, you hit your brakes. You see the sign. You think about people passing. You don't want to hurt anybody. And that's kind of what we need out in Potneville right now. We, we are the worst area in the town. I could just sex. Interruption for one second. No problem. So, and I apologize because I was going to try and be there for this meeting with the state night at conflict and I couldn't be there. But I knew you guys were going to be there. So the state isn't I mean the irony of this is which I know you understand. This isn't one of our roads. I mean it's in our town. It's our town and our residents live there. But it's not our road. It's a state highway. So we just, just let me finish. So we are, we are very limited in terms of what we can do. Yeah. Just just a minute. So I gather what they told you is that there was a process where we could either have these LED signs installed at town expense or the radar, the flashing radar things at town expense. Is that what they told you? So essentially, yes. So they'll, they do, they consider the LED flashing solar detection signs to be enforcement. They don't consider that regular signage. So the regular signage does fall to them. They are planning on, you know, taking care of the signs when they bump them back and adding the additional signage for just like the warning that it's dropping. They're also looking at, they're going to come out this week. The chair of the traffic committee did call me the day after the meeting and he's going to come out and do some additional tests to look and see if there's any other trees that can be taken down to improve sight lines. I've also asked for a blind driveway sign, which they are going to try and see if there's a place that they can put that in going southbound before my house, because that's really where no one can see. But they do consider the radar ones to be enforcement and they said enforcement falls to the town, which is what brings us back here. Ultimately, you know, and looking at it, we're hoping that the slack board today will kind of meet us in the middle and help us with this for, we understand obviously like Albie stated that there's a budget and we know that there's only so much that we have. I know that we have a contracted enforcement budget with the sheriff's department who I've spoken to on numerous occasions. And honestly, when there is the state police with the state police as well, and they will sometimes come out. But when the state police has come or when the sheriff is there, we do see, I think for a short period of time, you see somewhat of a slower drive through that people are starting to pay attention. But then they disappear again and it's out of sight out of mind. So in looking at it from a cost perspective, for me, at we know it's an initial investment on the signs to implement them. When I spoke to Ian at the Vermont traffic committee meeting, he had stated that the signs typically cost in the range of $3,000 to $4,000 a piece. So what we'd be looking at for the two signs would be an investment for the town of $78,000. You know, they don't have any costs to maintain them because they just run off, or electric to maintain them because they run on solar power. But inevitably, there are batteries that fail. So and then the other piece of it is, is there is a permitting process that the state has already said that they will gladly approve and that they recommended the signs at the meeting, but they said that I understand what you're saying, Peter. What they pretty much said to kind of relate to this meeting is that if you think about every state road that you go on, every state road where 1111 in London do their doesn't matter where it is, they will not do stuff for towns because if they do one for the town of Village of Putnamville, they have to do the one for the town of Callis. They have to put one in the town of Yankee Smelter. I guess what we have don't don't get me wrong, we have exactly the same issue. Yeah, and much smaller scale, but we have the same issue. And that's why I was trying to reiterate earlier is that I don't want to say that I'm sure there's people live on bad roads everywhere, but I just been saying that I know, and anybody that drives through Putnamville, the traffic flow and the way that people driving in the speed, we are the worst spot in the town of Middlesex. There is no other corner of 50, 60 miles an hour with line curves. We get it. And that's why we're, you know, do you guys have a spec sheet or something on these signs? I actually have a couple. And, you know, you can get them for like two grand directly from the boundaries. Are we are we talking about ones that are flashing the speed? Correct. And then when the speed is like five miles an hour over the speed limit, there are lights around it that flash. So the ones that we would be looking at are the ones if you're driving into Montpelier right there at Coming Street and Pearl Street right in that birch grove stretch there, they would basically be, I mean, that's what we're looking for is those. And so there's different varying levels. Those are kind of like a base level. There are some that just notify you of your speed, which is the ones that we'd be looking at. There are ones that actually record and track the data, but obviously those are significantly more expensive. I think for me just the regular, the more basic ones are really what we're looking for, because it's really just a visible awareness piece for people so that they're paying attention. And I know that when I would you put them. I mean, ideally, I'd like to put them on the 35 on either end of that Putnamville stretch. So on the 35 on the north right near where it says to go down the lower speed. So they'll be the warning sign that it'll say it's coming down to 35. And then we would actually put it on the same pole as the 35 speed limits is how I envision it. The same as Cummings and Pearl Street that it has the speed limit sign. And then directly underneath it would be the radar, the solar radar sign would be posted underneath it. And the state will allow that to be on the same post? Yes, they will. And so there's and Sarah had sent over. I know that she has it. So maybe it could be forwarded that you sent me with the specs that I think you may be talking about. I think we got it. Okay, all right. Yes. So are you saying I'm just trying to remember where the sign is? Isn't it sort of before if you're coming from Rumney and going up? Isn't that 35 at the first house? It's directly before the first house. Yes, that's the only one. There's not one in the middle of town that also says 35. No, because there's nowhere there's there. They're seeing that there's not a good place to put one in the middle there because of just people don't see it. I mean, I just worry that they're going to speed up again because it's like that stop sign, especially if they move the stop sign not stop sign, but the speed sign further closer to Rumney. People are going to forget and where you want them to be slow is in your neighborhood. Right? Yeah. So I mean, I think that those that will otherwise get them into right onto our exactly like I'm wondering if there isn't anything else that like actually having it in the middle of town is where you want it. The way I look at the signs is to could we could it be reasonable? So that's, you know, compromise where we just did one. And then if you think about it, it's really just changing the sign. They're probably on some sort of a bracket every six months. If the town of the meanest crew come around, undo the nuts and turn the sign backwards and it shoots southbound versus that saves the town. 2,500 bucks, you know, or whatever you know, I'm saying can we can we start with one in and in six months, the town meanest guys just come around and turn the sign around. Yeah, on the wrong side of the road. So we have to move it over to the other side. I'm just speaking for myself, not for the not for the board. But if we're going to do this, I think we have to we have to do it in the do it in the proper way to have it be effective. And you know, unfortunately, my experience is that, you know, yes, it will slow some people down. I would certainly help it would. But when the city of Montpelier puts their portable thing, which is of course a whole different level of cost. And that's one thing we were not too seriously looking at but looking at years ago, if we had portable ones, we could move them around to different places in town and at least say to people, you know, this isn't just for one part of town, this is getting used everywhere. But that's that's a whole different level of cost and problem and other other issues. I would anecdotally tell you that my darling, you know, the children who are no darling young children used to consider it a challenge to see how high they could get the sign to go up on on territory, which wasn't necessarily necessarily productive. Well, I think we I think we've heard what we what we need to hear. I have another question. Did you look at all to I mean, this is something aside from electronic signs, but look at the cost of having like the lawn signs, because I think that those actually are effective as a driver when you see every lawn says 35 miles an hour. It's a visual that you as a driver realize. And that's like not a big I mean, you guys could probably each chip in 10 bucks and get a sign, right? And have that as at least a place, you know, as a reminder throughout. I think that that would be kind of a band-aid on a much bigger issue. Honestly, I mean, we're looking at a place that has snow eight, nine, ten months a year. So for the three months that we could use that, like, okay, and I totally understand, but on as a long-term solution, I don't think that that's going to be effective, honestly. Other board members? Questions? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, questions. I mean, John's here from Castella if you wanted a business perspective on his trucks, because I know that that is okay. Let's hear his business perspective. Unfortunately, business, the business perspective is personal because there was a, there was a dryer. We have residential service. We run a lot of trucks about 15 a day that are serviced at the rear of the truck. So we have a driver getting out and going to the rear of the truck to service that residential customer. So, 50 mile an hour roads unfortunately about two years ago, August of 17, we had a driver at the Castella division in Burlington who was servicing a residential customer in St. Alton's who lost his life because somebody left him and hit the back of the truck killing him instantly. Ever since then we've had a heightened awareness about 50 mile an hour roads or more, even 45s, and we've considered what we need to do with customers, residential customers that live in those, in those roads. One thing, one thing we can pull off the road with your trucks. We do that where we can. There's not a lot of places where we can do that. We're investing in trucks that service from the side. Those run at a premium, side load trucks to try to get both commodities from the side at once. We've actually been hit one time in the last two years from behind from a driver, and luckily it was a side load truck. It was one of our two that we have running around and while that's good for us in those areas. And here to support safety, I don't go to a lot of these because there's not a, I know it's a lot to get things going on these, but this is a corner that Kristen serves on the chamber with me brought to my attention that we had a near miss. I showed the pictures of my drivers and they told me what had happened and I said wow, we need to fix, we need to fix this. We'll just stop. We have the flashers going which are alternating at the tops and bottoms of the corners. But the driver, it's funny because the small road in Vermont, my safety assistance brother-in-law was the driver of the truck that almost hit us. So this week's Labor Day weekend they were having a conversation about that. But he said he was in the wrong what's worse, the people going south and the people going north are the equally bad. When there are state troopers that stop and over the years will have somebody stop. You just see the lights go all day long. There's like the blue lights when they stop there to get people. All day long the blue lights are gone. They were very often. I haven't seen them in a while. I was working up a little bit. But I have had you know is this the sheriff or the state police? The sheriff. When I have called both sheriff and state police they have come within two days and sat on the floor. Let me we pay money but don't come. The sheriff's department yes. But I think obviously middle sex we have been doing enforcement. Once I've started calling they do come if there's a time it's getting especially bad I will call and say I need somebody here in the next day or two and they have always come. I have seen a significant decrease but it's short-lived out of mind it kind of goes away but well we we struggle every year because we appropriate money for speed enforcement and generally they're only able to spend 60 to 70 percent of the money because they don't have the people available to do the work so that's a problem. I would anecdotally tell you for two or three years a neighbor of mine on East Hill Road happened to be she was a state police officer and I just asked her as a courtesy I said hey can you just park your cruiser at the end of the driveway sported that slow down on East Hill big time even though she wasn't in it it was just parked there maybe it would be cheaper if we just bought a retired vehicle parking in my yard we sort of facetiously talked about that maybe what we should do is buy a bunch of dead state police cars and put extra batteries in them anyway I don't think the state's going to allow us to do that and the neighbors have done people who plant flowers on the road which is known to slow down the killer traffic we have a mannequin where's your mannequin following following following we're always doing some yard work or whatever so we do do things to make people slow down the things that we know to do during the summer again I would have think going south it would be more with that blind drive in your house it's very tricky because we're getting the long term morrisville I am yes the people that are commuting in from morrisville stowe and elmore into montpelier are all coming through my way the tricky part is right now where it drops down is from my front porch there you can just see if it goes up the hill there and albie's the next house on the right halfway in between our houses the 50 sign so a guy about sherry's house at the bait shop they can still see the sign from there and they're basically just like 50 geoliter so they punch it through that corner and yes probably mine is one of the more dangerous but they're all dangerous but I'm probably a little bit higher just because of that blind corner there and we have the whole ledge that lines that whole side of the street so they can't put any additional signs there either which also complicates things but it's possible put a 35 where that 50 is now and they move the 50 down that's what they're looking at doing yes I'm hoping they haven't given confirmation that I'm aware of whether they're going to make that 35 the 50 sign of 35 and then put an additional one further up or whether they're just going to replace the one but they are supposed Vermont transportation is supposed to change so that probably be a piece of that I can ask them the initial 35 is going to be over by Kevin's of Highland Gardens and the slow down 35 with a little arrow that's a warning when you're in the 50 you have to slow down to 35 it's coming up that's going to be before Kevin's probably coming down the hill from is it the winter's house the winters the log home there so coming down the hill you're going to have to see a sign that says warning 35 do not have any any dates but I'd be happy to get them for you but I mean we think it's going to be fairly soon yes I do feel like the committee had taken very seriously and I think based on the follow up conversations I've already had with them it seems like they want to act sooner than later so I anticipate it'll be soon question for Kim you're not aware of any of the money or any place where we could get some help in dealing with this issue I mean I can poke around I did copy a bunch of folks on an email it was from 2018 eastbound failure had a similar situation and I was told that they can occasionally loan or rent out these portable signs to see that doesn't necessarily stop the longer term issue that would be a help I mean our struggle is and I think you will understand this that we live with a budget that gets approved town meeting day so the budget that started July 1st was approved on town meeting day and will be effective until next July 1st there's no money in the budget to do this so if we're going to do it that means you know it's got to come out of some other category which is likely the road maintenance budget but it's it's an issue for us I mean the timing the timing couldn't be worse because it's right at the beginning of the physical year yeah Kevin Peter you mentioned that you typically only use 65% of the enforcement budget yeah this is enforcement I mean so here's I know so here's the here's the problem let me just explain to you how it works okay so we set the budget we sign a contract okay okay we don't know until the end of the year how much of that money is going to get spent or not and by that time the year is over and we're in the next year so yes that money is going back into the general fund but it's not like we would have to I guess amend our speeding contract and say you know we actually want $4,000 less speed enforcement this year and find the money that way like that but I'm just saying it presents it presents a challenge it isn't an unbelievable amount of money but it's when you don't have it it's an unbelievable amount of money so I don't know how other board members feel about this well I know there's a lot of speeding around town and problems and yours could be the worst there is in town I have been looking at possibly getting some of these signs that do that and wasn't looking at that cost and I'm not sure the state would accept those signs on their road because they're they're a a smaller sign and they they are solar but I could move them around town and that's what I was looking at talking to the board about possibly doing something like that and I'm not sure that's how I still would like to look into that and remember that yeah well we were looking at several hundred dollars right that's I remember not several thousand I think the last time we had this discussion was with Angelo Napolitano and he had one for 750 bucks right that's right right so it's a start I guess one of the things we can do is contact the state and see you know if there are other options we can reduce the cost a little bit that's a huge help for us if there are signs I don't know whether it makes sense to move them around town I mean maybe we have some we move around town and some we don't I mean we have a speeding problem everywhere in town yours is particularly dangerous just because of the way the way the road is I will say is that road deteriorates and doesn't seem to get repaired by the state you would think that would slow let it go tractor trailers just aim at those potholes and then slam bang oh I know I know I know well I've often said I've often said over the years keep some of our gravel roads too smooth because it makes people drive fast Ron maybe we should keep some of the preserve some of the potholes and speed bumps and whatever anyway I guess I guess what I'm sensing is that we need to think about this and do a little research I'd like to do a little research I mean I think that signs are a great idea but I'd like to do a little research and what the state would allow yeah so so I guess what we would say is we'll commit to you and keep you in the loop about what's going on but it would be helpful to know and we can try and find out too but it would be helpful to know when the state is going to move to no point I mean unless they say we can't do it until next spring or something heaven forbid but it would be certainly better to have them move the signs and then put our signs on there I'm happy to get that information for you this week and send it over I can also ask them for our drawing on the map of where they're going to put them for the location so that you'll have to smell that would be great absolutely great I mean thank you well for yeah Sarah during the time when we're having we've had some pretty bad situations in the past week and a half or so but I will tell you when the winter when the piles come up and down route 12 we live behind Jim and Sherry our driveway is behind Jim and Sherry in Gloria which is the big blue house on route 12 and getting out of there in the winter is absolutely treacherous and I'm sure for the other folks here getting out of their really on what we can see above or around as we're pulling out of our driveways and from I would say from Sherry's driveway probably close to Norton Road that road is so slick every year it's always slick so as we're pulling out of our driveway people coming north are sliding through town and so stepping on their brakes doesn't do any good and I slide I've gone past my driveway going 20 miles an hour just kind of cruise by the driveway with my brake on and have to go up to Norton Road and turn around and come back so I just don't want to miss an opportunity to mention how treacherous it is in the winter I agree it's treacherous I would I would tell you though again unfortunately you know we plow the dirt roads in town we don't we don't plow that road it's not allowed to drop sand or salt on the on the state road I'm sorry what pretty easy I heard on them before you you know and I'll just mention I mention this that we now do my neighbors but there is a precedent for a 25 mile from a 50 to a 25 I drive to Hyde Park every day and when those of you that know we're at 12 you go into Morrisville I was just going to say it's ridiculous but they have it and Morrisville and I for them to have said for the for VTrans to have said you can't go from 50 to 25 they're true and it's on the same road so I whoever's trying to get VTrans I hope that you'll you'll talk with them because I'm not done with it I mean this is way too important she has no visibility you need 190 feet at 40 miles an hour you need 120 feet to be able to stop there's nowhere in that village you have 120 feet to stop right so Cam excuse me it just needs more attention there's something possibly that you could work on if they're saying that it can't be reduced to 25 and in fact it can be you know maybe we can make a special request I don't know info yeah obviously that doesn't match so something is right and I didn't even at the time I really I didn't know about the law being that it couldn't be more than 15 miles per hour for that allowance before going into the meeting otherwise I hopefully would have looked for that precedent but I'm happy to bring it back up to their attention based on that see what they say you don't think it's the town is the town sorry just to refresh your memory every year we have town meeting and in that town meeting is a morning and you can submit a petitioned article or maybe even bring it to the select board and ask them to put on the warning shall the voters approve $8,000 for signs and then you can come to the town meeting and the voters will decide and then that money is yours the signs but I mean if you just have $8,000 I know what I'm saying is a lot of people don't know how the system works and that is how the system works and it makes my heartbeat because this is beautiful from on democracy a couple of values where she likes the best thank you democracy and action we appreciate your time thank you thank you all for coming so let's please just make sure oh my gosh that whatever we're gonna do it we do it soon and get back to them because obviously they're anxious and I don't blame them I mean it is scary it's really scary it is scary yeah we only spend a few percent on care and you know I've been monitoring the infrastructure it really is atrocious when they do it and they do it at times I've seen like that really always commute times the other thing is one day they started at 1045 and left at 11 yeah because they got called out probably but I'm just saying that those are the things that you're up against I'm a big spender so I'm happy I mean I can probably do that all the time and it really is dangerous and it is a scary place and the thing is is that those houses are very close together and you know you'd be you'd be in trouble I mean it's not a good place well if these signs and I've I mean who knows what to read on the internet whether it's true or not but there's a lot of stuff on the internet about these signs and most of it is positive that they do work as people get used to them being there they don't work quite as well but they do work they work to have little black cats sitting on the lawn you think it's going to run out but it doesn't work changing the signs around like one that I think of in particular is because I drive by it but it's on Windy Wood Road in Bury Town you'd think it's just outside the city limits but it's Bury Town and the sign doesn't stay there all the time they move those signs all over Bury Town but it keeps you as soon as I see the sign I look down and I'm usually doing pretty good so maybe I'm doing 30 so I'll still a little bit wow if that's as fast as you go that's not going to be pretty good because I know the speed limit is 25 but I'm still speeding so the sign starts flashing but they move these signs around when they come back well if they're you know and you gotta you gotta get the nuts that you know have this have this special thing so you know the kids can't grab them and run away with them but if all they are is attached to these posts with you bolts I just think you know the concept of spending less money on police enforcement which doesn't seem to be working and spending that money on signs to me makes a lot of sense and as much as it's you know as much as our fun balance situation at the end of last year wasn't great the bottom line it wasn't the speed enforcement that that hurt it helped us but you know we've been hearing something on the select board we've been having complaints about speeding I mean this is the most serious altogether once type thing we've ever had but we've had a lot of complaints over the years about that well and I think you can distinguish Putnamville from other parts of town well you can in the in the fact that that's a 50 mile an hour zone that leads into it from both directions and there's not even a welcome to Putnamville sign so like people don't they come upon it you know and so you don't have that warning and then you're like oh it's just a little village I'll just get through it and I think that that's I mean even having a welcome sign I think they should have those little things of drive slowly their children here I think those are effective too but those again are you know they're all they're not they're all effective to some degree right I think our role I mean it's just unbelievable to me that's a state highway and they say the towns is responsible for enforcement I mean that just pushes me right over the edge that's their road for Christ's sake anyway yeah sorry um but this is well let's say Steve if you could oh that's scary very scary if you could do some because if we can get the state to accept signs of more moderate and cost I think any flashing sign you know it's not going to make a difference that much and if there's a big difference in cost that obviously makes a big difference you know they have these technical requirements including the RSFS shall include the legend your speed is blank MPH you know there are some this is where I think the cost come in and that they must they must do they must activate certain ways they must go blank except when you go 15 miles an hour over the speed I'm just saying that this is what the people think of well I asked AOT how much they would cost they said 3,000 or 4,000 per sign yeah yeah thanks what were those ones that Albie was showing us 2,500 but I don't know they mean all these requirements yeah well and you know you can you can bet you can bet the next the next request is going to be for signs up here and here and there and everywhere what I would really like to have if we could ever anyway anyhow find the money is the mobile one where you can put them on East Hill for a week and then you put them on Center Road for a week and then you put them on Shady rail for a week but those are super expensive they're a lot more expensive those are the trailer signs yeah they're probably $20,000 a piece are $25,000 yeah how many do you think my pillar has there if there was if there was some way I mean if these if these $8,000 signs they are movable to the extent you undo the u-bolts and move them well 4,000 a piece yeah but 4,000 pieces a lot different than $20,000 I'm just saying for us to buy two one year and two the next year and two the next year and all of a sudden we have six of them I don't know but the concept the concept of you know not having these never used contracts with Vermont State Police and saying Sheriff's Department Sheriff's Department yeah and saying you know and then having them come at times when people don't speed I mean if they can't come during drive time we're just throwing our money right down the back and I've seen them like at 2.30 in the afternoon right it's ridiculous I mean it isn't if it's near the school and there are people getting out of school speed trailers for a maximum of two weeks at any particular place oh so someone would have to move those well we're not going to get those anyway wait a minute well we're not going to get the trailers anyway that's on that okay so we need to we are now officially way beyond way beyond schedule so as you will all recall we had this Welch Park discussion back in the spring about shall we consider being part of the potable water we are now part of the potable water system over there which we have never used and I can't ever imagine we're going to use the uh Benderson folks I believe I'm using the right name who are the owners of the telephone building said they were going to do the repairs to the areas I've been done and we would have until September 1st to decide if we wanted to continue to be part of that again not using it and pay 15% of that bill and risk future bills which could even be more or if we want to just be excluded from the potable water thing and to tell you the truth shame on me I kind of like last weekend September 1st is coming right up what are you guys going to do I thought he sold it what? I heard he sold it he sold what? his business he sold the business he sold the buildings and plans um in thinking about it again and reading Marika sent being a bunch of the minutes from the meeting last spring just to remind me you in my opinion it makes no sense for us to be part of that potable water system and the risk of I mean the risk of future expenses to maintain that I don't see why we want to take that on I mean we would we would spend the money to drill another well down by our building if if heaven forbid that well or fail there's nothing to do with that is he going off of it? he hadn't decided but he was he said what are you going to do when he said there's a 90% chance I'm going to get off it because I can drill another well up by my buildings and I just don't like the uncertainty of the risk going forward and that well has never been that great anyway and who knows what the future use of that of that building is right now today everybody comes they hop in their trucks and they go so as much as it's rated for more water if all of a sudden that was filled with well let's say got converted to an office building so there were all of a sudden 150 people working in there you know flushing toilets and doing everything else that they would be doing there's a good chance that well would fail so what's likely that's going to happen I have no idea what the solution would be that we get it over with and decide that we don't want to be part of that and we notify them of that I'm on board with that yeah I don't have any particular problem I don't either so it's something like that put out that our friend didn't bother to CC me a copy of the permit that was issued I know you did I know but you know you're not burning well make no mistake who burned anyway we don't need to go there that's been an issue for a while I'll move I'll move that we notify whoever that we're not going to take part in the potable water just to make for the clarification it's it's not just that's potable water it's that it's a common well isn't that the difference I mean all well should be potable water correct but it's the well it's the well and the potable water system I just want to ask because it was it was here too for a common well what you're saying is we're pulling out of the common well correct the other parties don't have access to water it's a common well no potable water yes to say potable water because as much as it's a common well no one else is hooked up they would accept the vendors but I just want to make sure that we get the description but both the common well with potable water and it is and the truth of the matter is it is the only well the other thing that we did participate in fixing last year was there was a pump down in the river which fills the fire pond we're still going to be part of that and we need to be part of that we should be part of that so it's been moved and seconded to notify Venderson and Welch Park all other members of Welch Park now the question is not just that I don't well let's vote on it first all those in second all those in favor of the motion please say aye aye any opposed no okay we've made the decision I don't know what has to happen to make that happen I don't know if we have to amend the bylaws I would suspect we would I would suspect how about this amending the motion it would say and the necessary so long as the necessary paperwork is prepared by Venderson tenant Venderson or something like that Welch Park well I mean if we say Welch Park then Curl will be upset that he has to be part of the paper I would think that has to be the association I would think it has to be the side that's going to affect that percentage too right I have one more two more cards to this question effective when number one well it's effective it's effective retroactively because you know they incurred this $30,000 expense and they agreed that they would allow us not to pay that right but we've been paying for water testing every month or whenever it's done as well so that's my second question is now how is that going to be handled and are you paying for the whole park or just our portion no our portion just our portion but the bills still are coming in have been coming in so where do they come from from the person who does the water testing I don't know the name of it well we have so I guess I guess what it needs to be is effective September 1st for any expenses other than the recent substantial repair so you know I don't think it's fair for us to go back and say we're not going to pay for the water testing since June that would be my thing wait a second you just did that backwards you did that backwards you don't want to accept that we're getting out of everything and we're going to pay our 15% on the $38,000 well that's what it sounds like I did say it upside down and backwards what I'm trying to say is that we entered into this agreement or we had until September 1st to decide if we were going to participate in this $30,000 repair or not we're now saying no thank you we're choosing not to so that is a retroactive decision by previous action of the I don't know whether it was the Welch Park Board it was the Board but Venderson appeared he's they're not a member of the Board are they Venderson I think it's Carl and you and me and who else well Matt Oates appeared on behalf of Venderson all right yeah they must be yeah they're part of the association so they must have a seat on that Board and that's what Matt was doing okay so then we should what have you written so far Sarah I've written Phil moves and Steve seconds to withdraw from the Commonwealth for potable water in Welch Park Steve second and the boat should pass and then Mary perhaps we should amend the bylaws here we are and then Dorinda said effective when and Peter said effective randomly actively and there was some discussion about Peter saying something like effective September first the the the repairing the well which were not right so I think you guys need a new motion to be are you going to put all that stuff in the minutes no I'm just reading from my notes right now after you guys get everything together I'll tiny it all up so wouldn't the other thing do to have us make a motion that we agree that for other bills which are basically just the water testing okay so are we going to pay for the water bills if we're not in in it not effective I don't know that's what you I don't think I don't think this was an issue back when we had the discussion nobody you know Anderson offered to say listen we're going to repair it at our expense you guys can make a decision by September 1st whether you want to be in or out okay so now we're saying we're out but we didn't say does that mean we go back to June for the water testing bills I just think they were I just think they were incredibly generous to let us do that and one of those what's our share of those water bills testing bills it's pretty small right small yeah it's like in the low teens I think or nine or teens okay I can go get the book no I mean it's it's a few hundred dollars that's just a going forward thing right yeah so there's a bunch of things we have to have the date we have to withdraw we have to have the proper notification and we have to have who's going to be responsible for the paper working lamp explicitly say pursuant to you know some type of an agreement made at whatever the date of that previous meeting is with Benderson we're withdrawing and they assume all the liability for that bill so which they've already paid I think what we need to do is call a Welch Park meeting and have that part of the Welch Park meeting and at the same time we need to say remember guys we said we wanted to stop doing the bookkeeping you know Dorinda's offered to do the bookkeeping I don't know if that's offer still stands but you know it's going to be done with a separate set of books separate bank account we're no longer going to be the bank we have to do it here and then we have to take the Welch Park I would say I would say we've made the decision we're laying out so I would I would notify I would notify them that we have made that decision have Sarah have Sarah send a letter and say you know we need as soon as we can to have a Welch Park meeting so we can memorialize all this and by then um we have to have a motion that says we're withdrawing on these conditions yeah so Phil's going to make that motion don't go ahead Mary I have all the elements you could look at well we've already made one motion on the big bell so the second motion just needs to be that we agree to pay our pro-reg to share of any other miscellaneous bills that have occurred between prior to nine one right I want to have the date we give the notice to you you want to have um make sure that it's contingent on Benerson continuing to assume all liability for the repairs and contingent on Welch Park doing the paperwork but does that need to be in our motion well I mean you want to be able to present Mary then why don't you make that motion instead of asking somebody else to make it I didn't want to make it well first I move that the town of middle sex withdraw from the Mayor we've already what's wrong we've been there and done that so let's talk about just the other guys contingent on uh uh tenant or whatever you call him Benerson assuming continuing to assume And contingent on the paperwork, necessary paperwork to withdraw being, the cost of the paperwork being born by the Welch Park Association. So what do we think that paperwork is, an amendment to the bylaws? Well, now we don't have to resolve it. We can let whoever they hire is a lawyer resolve what they need to do. But that motion doesn't include the bills that have created the appropriate share of miscellaneous bills prior to September 1 excluding any recent repairs on the commonwealth, or what do we call it? Well, why do we have to, if we're effective September 1, we don't have to say that we're assuming them because we already paid them. They come and they pay them. That's true. Okay, except I think you probably want to get into the record that you're not going to just, that you're not going to pay for that well, that you're not going to go pay any 15% for the repairs on the wells, right? Well, that's what I said. Well, maybe we made that motion and done that. No, you haven't. No, I said assuming that a contingent on Benderson assuming all liability for expenses made for the portable commonwealth. Okay. All right, contingent on Mary Moose, effective September 1. This is a mess. Contingent on Benderson making repairs to the total water system and contingent on the cost of the paperwork being borne by Benderson? No, by the Walsh Park Association. And this is just an amendment to the previous motion, which was very simply. I'd make it a second motion. Okay. I think that's clear. Is that making a second motion? So you can say the withdrawal is contingent on something like that. Okay, so Mary Moose said the withdrawal is contingent on. And if we don't have the date in, put the date in on the second motion. It's effective September 1 and contingent on Benderson making repairs to the Puddle water system. Should we just say paying for repairs of? Future repairs and expenses. Past and future. Thank you. I just, hi, we don't have it. Look, look, look. Can we just come back? The way I'm thinking about this, and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But the way I'm thinking about this is we got two different situations. They gave us an exception where we had till September 1 and now being September 3 to make a decision about whether we wanted to be in or out. And if we wanted to be out, then we were going to be not responsible for this major repair that they did this summer. Right, we wouldn't be of any part of it. Right. And the first motion to me said we've decided to be out and therefore it's our expectation that we will not be responsible for our share of that large repair bill. Mary's motion is addressing what about other expenses, the water testing? Well, I was trying to say that our withdrawal, and the question is withdrawing from what? From the Articles of Association, the Bylaws, from the Welch Park Association. No, we're not withdrawing from the Welch Park Association. No, but what are we, what are we, when we're withdrawing? Isn't that the term you used? Yeah, I think so. We're giving up our rights to this well. What we're not really doing is we're giving up our right. All I'm saying is we should have the right language so it's clear what we're doing just because we don't want to give up more than we have to. So maybe we want to say that we're giving up the right to access to the common potable water well. That's what that... No, withdrawing is not... Anyway, so long as contingent on their paying all their expenses, and I don't see why it wouldn't be passed in the future if we're withdrawing from... Maybe we're withdrawing from the ability to use the common potable water well. And be responsible for the expenses. Going forward, because we've already paid... The question is, the question is, I don't remember that we had any discussion back when... We had that phone conference when Benderson was saying, you know, they'll let us have until September 1st to decide what we want to do. That anybody brought up, them or us, what about any bills that happen in the meantime, other bills? So we have three months, roughly, of water testing bills. And the question is, if we want to make a big deal out of those or not. I mean, to me, I would say it's fair to say, well, pay them. Yeah. Until September 1st, after September 1st, no. Right. So the question is, how we say that. Right. Well, I think we have to say we want to say the old liabilities in any new ones and associated costs. That's fine. That's fine. Okay. We're not making a big deal about this. I know. I'm just trying to clean this all up. What if you just had an effective September 1, the town of Middlesex forfeits, all future rights and access to the Commonwealth of Pueblo water in Welch Park, contingent on the Welch Park Association, that contingent on the... Well, that's weird. Welch Park Association, prepare and pay for all supporting documentation. Does that... No. But it's contingent on two things. One, okay. So you got both of those contingencies? Yes. Just prepare and pay for all supporting documentation, and what else? And... Benderson assuming all past and future liability for repairs to the system and associated costs, and costs associated there. Okay. Future with liability and repairs. Or does it should be repairs and liability? Does it matter? Assume all past and future... Past liability. Okay. Associated with the system. No. Don't use associated. Don't use associated. And associated costs. Why would we say past? Because that's the $30,000 of what they already... Right, but we've also paid past water testing. We paid it. We... But we're talking about past liability. I mean, if I was... All I'm saying is if I was Benderson, if all of a sudden somebody came up and said, hey, last May, you guys were supposed to do this big thing and you didn't do it, and now you're going to do it now, and all of a sudden we get hooked with 15% of it. Okay. So, past and future liability concerning maintenance of said well, and any future costs associated with it. How's that? So we're talking about... After June, whatever the day was. No, we're just doing everything September 1, effective September 1. But they've already paid for the repair, right? That's what the past is. The past liability. Yeah, but it's only for that one item. I mean, if I was Benderson's lawyer, I would say, you know, we're not going to let you off the hook on everything. We'll let you off the hook on the $30,000, but we're not going to let you off the hook on something else that happened in the past, which bubbles to the surface. No, but I'm saying that past and future liability for the well, and future costs associated with it. I know the past is for that $30,000. Well, then you're going to have to specifically... Assume all of us, the $30,000, why don't we just put this up? So listen, here's what I would say. Here's what I would say. I'm willing to withdraw my previous motion, which you've already approved. Let's just have a motion and have... Everything in it. And have Rob Halpert do the language, or you and Rob Halpert do the language. We don't need to sit here and try and wordsmith this. I think we get the idea of what we're trying to do. We need to put it in the legal language and get it over to them as soon as we can. Okay, but does Phil's motion, that is a done deal, correct? No, we're going to... Can that? Can you read my motion? Well... Phil moves, and Steve seconds, that the town of Middlesex will withdraw from the Commonwealth from Puddlewater in Wilts Park. Well, I would leave that, I would leave that, and just have him write whatever we need for the... Because we, as a board, we all said yes to that. I did say that, that's what we got. So now let's, now let Mary and Rob Halpert draw up the language. I think we should say, instead of withdrawing from the Commonwealth, I think you should say withdrawing all interests or forfeiting all interests. I just want to get this to them quickly, because we promised them we'd let them know by September 1st. Okay, that's great. If we keep on this subject right now, we're going to be next September 1st. Look, you guys don't have to rate the minutes afterwards, I'm seeing you're going... No, no, I understand. And we need to do it right, and what I'm going to do is I'm going to call... Jesus Christ, now I can think of his name. Come on, give us a name. Carl, and tell him, you know, war withdrawing, so you can know that we're figuring out the language and whatever, and we need to have a Welch Park meeting ASAP. Okay. Because the town has never been involved. You say you're not withdrawing, you've never, ever had any access to this well. We had the right, we had the right. Well, we haven't even really, we found out we haven't even really had the right, because the permit didn't include us, remember? Anyway, we don't need to go back, we don't need to go back to that. Bernie's a good job of representing us, and having himself confirmed it. The man with a lot of hats. Okay. We're now even farther behind, so let's keep charging ahead of you. Middlesex.org e-mails. That's fast, I haven't done anything about it yet, I was a little busy. You can meet your grandfather. Oh really? Congratulations. When is that going to happen? It's going to be Sunday at 5.26. And so you have a baby boy. Oh, exciting. Local or not? Local? Or do you have to travel to see the baby? St. Alvin's. Oh, that's funny. Tell him how this baby might be. 11.7. What? Full size. Full size. 11 pounds, 7 ounces. Are we putting this on TV? Yeah, we got it on there. Okay. So I was telling him, he was 22, weren't you, you said? Yeah, 23. My son, Matthew, he was born, so it was 23 inches and weighed like 10 pounds, 8 ounces or something. Is he a big man now? Very big. Again, like what, 6'5? Yeah, 6'5. Wow. 6'5. He looks like a 3-month-old. I'm going to put baby to the plate for this. Yeah. Okay, get it. So, I mean basically, basically where we are, right, is we have the proposal from Ruben, I'll call it the expensive option. Yeah. And we've become aware of another option, which may be less costly. Yes. And I've read through all the brochures. I have a call in to, okay, I remember his name, who's the one I think maybe came in. And eventually there's stuff that they do things differently than the way our B technology does. And I think looking at it, that may have some advantages for us as far as archiving email. They run their own stuff, so you don't have to buy an office 365 license. And they run their own cloud. And so they've got it set up. And they handle a number of municipalities in school districts, so they're familiar with them. So I really just have to get this guy on the phone and talk with him and see if I can set up a meeting and get some more details. But I think, in fact, my impression is that it's more cost-effective. Well, I would ask him to get us a proposal. Yeah. So what counts around here? Do you use them? Do you know? It's in the... It's in their brochure. What? I think Bolton is one of them, if I recall. Iran. Well, that's exciting. How much money would we save? A number of stops at? I don't know. And it's tax-expensive in any fashion, but if we can get some stuff streamlined and get away from some of this licensing, which seems to be their approach, where they seem to license at their level and build that into the cost, whereas instead of us then having to buy a license for my email and your email, and going on and on, it looks like they try to bundle all I would say is that I understand what you're going through, but I have been going through a nightmare with our friend about the fire department, where he is bombarding me, and some of you have gotten copies of some of this. I saw the one thing you sent back to me. And it just concerns me more and more about using my personal email to do that. Yeah, we've got to have that. So, anyway, enough said. Okay. But I will work on it. I will get back to it now, but I'll have plenty of time. And pictures after the meeting. What's your grandfather's name? My grandson. You're going to be grumpy, grumpy. Nino? Nino. I like that. Italian. Is your son or your daughter the head? I only have a daughter. Is your daughter's spouse Italian? No, but my wife is. Therefore, everybody has to be. Okay, so... And that's on the... So, your Nino, what is she? Nona. Nona? That's kind of exotic. Yeah, it is. Well, that's what... Her Roberta's mother was always Nona to Sarah. And then when we inherited the two boys, the grandchildren, it was like, okay, well, we've got to decide on something. So that's where the Nino got assigned to me, so it just carried me through. Perfect. I'm Dr. We don't need to go into where that came from. Sometime over a beer, I'd be happy to tell you. But there aren't very many Drs out there either. No. That was Boppy. Aww. Okay. You don't want to throw yours at that? No, I'm not going to throw mine. Review... The postcard. The postcard. Are you guys willing to do a postcard? Because that would save on money. Yeah. Although, I hope this doesn't go the way of the DMV postcard where everyone was like, what's all this telling me? And we're just weird, like, is this vetted by Paul? So, okay. I just, you know... I would also say we should complement it with a front porch forum postcard. Yeah. Rather than just having this show up out of nowhere. I'll put it on hot pink. Would that be okay with the road crew? Okay, we'll flush both. Why do we need the claws, which will be pushed back because of circumstances? That's what our road foreman added. Okay. You wrote it, and he added that? Yeah, he did. But we've already said it. Longer average. Or too devastating. There were some things that Paul edited that he couldn't read that he insisted be in that postcard. So that's it. My name's not on this. But here it is. So here's my... You don't need to draw my future delays either. Here's my edit. I think we should amend our five-year plan. And I don't know if we can squeeze it on the bottom of the postcard or say the amended five-year plan will appear on the website in the near future or how we're going to do it. But to say this is what we're going to do now, well, I was on this year. Does that mean I've disappeared off the... If the five-year plan will be amended, don't put a timeframe in there. Yeah. And available on the town website as soon as possible? Yeah. Okay. How long does it take to amend this five-year plan? Well, Paul and I need to get together and we sit down and we both have got our ideas and we hash stuff out and that usually takes a couple of sessions. Right. So we're talking like maybe a month or something? Like... Yeah. So people are... If we get this within a couple of weeks, it would be... It makes sense to be in the budget season anyway to get your pre-planning. So... Yeah. But I just think every year we hear at town meeting, I'm looking at the five-year plan and I was on for two years ago and you're still having gotten to me, blah, blah, blah. I just think part of this needs to be saying, are we just going to push everything back? You know, don't you agree? Right. You know, we need to say we're... And we did that so people have an idea... Because some of these roads were damaged were roads that would have been in the five-year plan down the road. Right. Right. Right. Change your priorities. Yeah. So they got... They got booted up on the five-year plan because they were damaged. So... Yeah. So can I just... Due to a longer-than-average-witter, blah, blah, I'm going to take off that clause, which would be pushed back. I totally need to take that off. This doesn't even make sense chromatically. I'm going to say, Barring Future Delays will be working... I think Paul wants Dilligently. He wants Dilligently. I'm not an advert fan, but you know... I don't like Barring Future Delays because, of course, that's going to be what happens. Yeah, of course. I think it's just a five-year plan, period. We will be working on the following roads. I agree. That's what I... Yeah, I think so, too. All right. So we will take out... Which will be pushed back? Well... We'll take out Barring Future Delays. Well, let's see. What Paul was saying there, I mean, you could word it differently, but what he was talking about, we're working on these roads, but it doesn't mean that we're going to get them done before winter sets in, depending on what we end up having to do. We could even just say our next scheduled roads are... Or we could say, we will be working on the following... and hope. How about we hope to work on the following... No! No! How about... We will be working... We wish... and hope to have them done before winter, or... No! I don't even think we should say that. That's not possible. That's why next month. Winter could be here, though. Yeah. Winter could be here next week. I think you can go to the hall. Can we say, due to a... severe winter, rather than saying a longer-than-average winter? Yeah. Yeah. How about that? That's true. Due to a severe winter... Well, by 2-day upstream, the roads are very immediate and extensive repairs. I wouldn't even say... I wouldn't say it's behind schedule. I would just say behind schedule on a five-year highway plan. How about... All of Paul's ads. I know. So what about just saying extensive repairs versus immediate? No. That's fine. That's fine. Okay. If they were immediate, I mean, that was the part. They had to get them right ahead. Yeah. Highway plan. All right. The following... or... Steve, are those roads in that order? You're going to start with McCulloch and Barnett, Bulldick and Tangletown, and... I can't tell you. I don't know. How about this fall, and then working on the following roads? This fall, we are... We... Since by the time this goes out, it will be fall. Yes. But when we say this fall, we will be working on... there. Can I just ask a question? Go ahead. I'm remembering trying to remember the five-year plan, which obviously I don't have in front of me. I haven't. But McCulloch and Barnett Hill were on last year, I believe, swinging into this year. Right. And we're still on McCulloch. Okay. And then we should add the sentence, we will be updating the five-year plan. Yeah. But let me just finish this. Okay. So I'm just saying to say, you're going to be working on McCulloch, Barnett Hill, Bulldick, Tangletown, and East Hill this fall. That's totally unrealistic, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would say, I would say, Portal and East Hill at the very least are pushed off until next year. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So summer 2019, which was this summer, was McCulloch Hill and Barnett Hill Road, July, Bulldick, Tangletown, August, that was mud-seasoned mitigation, Portal and East Hill, September and October was service work on East Hill Center, South Bear Swamp, and North Bear Swamp. So, so I'm sorry, you did start working on McCulloch this year? Yes. This spring, but not Barnett? We've had to pull off from that. So really, McCulloch and Barnett are next Bulldick and Tangletown, just because of Portal and East Hill. I just think we're creating potentially unrealistic expectations. I agree. So McCulloch and Barnett Hill, and then, and Bulldick and Tangletown, period? Yeah, but I don't, are you even going to get to that? I know. We're talking like, basically, I don't think they're going to get McCulloch and Barnett Hill done. Yeah. So, I mean, we're doing, we're doing, we're splitting the crew up now. We're doing some of that road sign stuff. Yeah. Over on French Road, where all three roads come together. We got a bunch of stuff there. We got our signs. Now we're going to be doing our work there. We've got other places that we have to attend to. So, we're splitting the crew up. So, we've got, well, I'm just saying, all I'm saying is, I don't know where we draw the line, but I would rather say, McCulloch and Barnett Hill, and leave the others off, and just don't say anything. Just say, you know, we will be updating our, our five-year plan. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. Is the service work, just, this is a question. Does the service work, does that also get pushed back? Or is that something that's just kind of ongoing? We're always servicing roads and this summer, we're servicing in for September and October, these roads. Well, everything gets pushed. Everything does. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what, I guess I don't know what service means. Service work versus full service. And there's an explanation right in there, but. Oh yeah, here we go. So, service work is shoulder cutting, ditching, culvert replacement. Okay. So, we're saying that that also gets pushed back. Yeah, I mean, yeah. So, then it would read, how about we say, this fall, we will be working on the following two roads, McCulloch and Barnett Hill. Why don't you just forget the following roads and say, this fall, we'll be working on McCulloch and Barnett Hill. In addition, in addition to the regular ongoing service all over town. I think it's also important to put in that you're installing signage, because we've had, that has been a big part of this. Yes, no, I'll say service. Ongoing signage and maintenance. All over town or something, something like that, they're out there. They're there every day. Yeah. Ongoing signage and maintenance. How's that? Yeah. Ongoing signage. Well, I think you should just say you're installing signage and maintenance. Okay. Well, I mean, installing somebody else, right? Okay. But you want, I want to get that in. And then we'll just say the five-year, the updated five-year play, the amended updated five-year play will be posted on the website by the end of September. Oh, I don't know if we're going to get it done by then. It will. It's just a, it's just a plan. Just a plan? Okay. Is that fair or not? Well, You said nothing but a timeline. Okay. Yeah. Check the, this fall, check the updated, check the, check the website. Yeah, there you go. I like that. Oh, that's you, really. It's exciting. Well, no, you're going to check it right now and then it'll call you and say, but you said it was updated. Check the website. Yeah. It's better than, than spinning our wheels. I'm not necessarily here in this, but Paul and I, we need to do this thing very realistically of what this five-year plan is. Don't. And just like, Bill said, I mean, that's part of our, our budget thing that's going to be coming right up anyway. So, if we get that done and do it to what we really think can happen there, and then post that on the website. All right. But you guys want, you want me to send out this postcard, right? Yes. I think, I mean, I think it's good to be, that we're communicating with our town. Yeah. But I will say that you may get lots of phone calls because people, what they don't, what they're not thinking about doesn't make them, make phone calls. It's when they get this information that they say, oh, so as long as you're okay and that Paul may be getting phone calls, you know, to say, well, where's my road going to be done? People are just stopping. I know. When they see me, they stop. Okay. Right? How come you're doing this and you're not doing that? Yeah. That happens a lot and a lot, more and more and more. Mm-hmm. So. All right. Can I just read you back? Yes, please do. Wordsmithing. Dear valued middle sex resident. Dear taxpayer. Dear taxpayer. Yeah. Due to a severe winter fall by two devastating spring storms requiring immediate and extensive repairs, the Middlesex Highway Department is behind schedule on its five-year plan. Do you want me to put in, this is a requirement? About your highway plan. Oh yeah, no, I just did an absurd. This fall, we will be improving McCulloch and Barnett Hill Roads installing signage around town and performing regular maintenance. Please check Middlesex for an updated five-year plan. That's fine. Fine. Thank you for your understanding. Do you want, thank you for your understanding. Do you want us to have, okay. We all know it's unfortunate. Dear, stand up. And I don't think we need to say, please contact us if you have any questions. We'll get out of here. No. Please call Steve Barnett. Yeah, we're sold. Yeah. Why did I put our phone numbers and our e-mail? We're happy to do that. Would you like me to do that? No. No. All right, do you guys want to make a motion on that or do you think it needs a motion or, it doesn't, it doesn't need a motion. I think we can just do it. Okay, good. Today, it's the third. Motion policy for special town meeting articles or $250,000 action possible. $250,000. Not $250,000. $250,000? You did. Yeah. How about that? $250,000 action possible. So this is Barry's. I have a bunch of, I have some in here. I have some others. There, it's the town of Barry. Also the, I don't think I have Carol Dawes sent me Barry City Councils, which was that if you would change, they have an application for, if you, so the way it works is there, if you, if you're a new organization and you want to apply for, for funding, they, there's an application that you submit. If you don't, and if the voters approve it and you don't change your funding the following year, you can just submit a letter to the select board. Now, I think the other thing you guys might want to consider. Why do we need the policy anyway? Because we, because our policy now is you have to do the petition every year. Yeah. And last year, a certain organization just submitted a letter to the select board and the other organizations heard about it like Wildfire. After they have 250 or less. The library. No, 250 or more. 250 or more. One person did it by, one organization. That's the telecovered library. I don't think you were around because you were going for your own stuff. Yeah. The telecovered library asked the board, can we please, do we, we're not going to ask for the select board, the select board said yes. Because it was the same amount of money. But the other organizations heard about this too and said, wait a minute, what's your policy here? And I, these towns do have a policy that's drawn up and we should be consistent about it. Well, in the past, that's the one time I can remember that we've made an exception to our policy. But the, but the question is, does it make sense if someone's asking for the same amount of money to make them a petition. And in the past, we've said, yes, I'm not so sure it does. I think the other thing is to put, and I don't know what the magic number is, but to say, the same amount or no more than a 2% increase or something like that. I mean, they can't. I feel strongly about a petition. I'm getting signatures. It's an automatic thing. It's an automatic thing. We've never, ever not given the money to people. If they can't even get 35 or how many people? 72. How many? 75. In the community to support it, we're going to have just an exploding number of people wanting money from us because it's guaranteed money. But I forget why we gave the pass to the library. There's a reason that, I mean, we could legally, we didn't, it's not like we just decided, oh, these guys don't have to give signatures. There was another rationale behind it. And I can't remember exactly, but wasn't, wasn't their point. We never said no to them and they know, they know Zillienia. But that's the way everyone is. Look, Mary, I'm saying this and I, I also don't believe you were here at the meeting and I can't remember exactly what it was, but whatever it is, it made sense to us at the time and we agreed to it. So the question is, are we going to allow that in the future or are we going to or that kind of thing in the future in some way to see who the same is, but everybody has to do a petition every year? It's over 250. Yeah, but it's over 250. The other question you might want to consider, just hear me out, is putting an article on the warning next year, asking the voters if they would like these funding requests to go on the ballot. And I'll tell you why. Because a lot of people don't come to town meeting because they feel as though this is a big part of town meeting and that they are shamed into voting for things or not voting. So it would be Australian ballot? It would be Australian ballot change. You put the funding requests on by Australian ballot. Berry City did that and they still, all these things still pass. Berry City gives out 200 to $250,000 a year in funding requests but it's the number one request I get from people regarding voting at town meeting. If you had those questions on the ballot, I would participate. Right now I'm just voting for town officers and they're usually uncontested but that's the argument it's important. But that means that there's another reason for people not to come to town meeting. They participate in the vote but they might not come to town meeting. They won't. They're still participating. The problem with town meeting is now it's on the tail end of school vacation so most people aren't coming because they want a couple more days of vacation. A lot of people just are intimidated. I mean I think there's, I think we have this town that people feel as though there are the elite who have extra money to burn and that they will buy anything and then there are those people who feel pinched who feel like they don't care if they come up to town meeting and stand up and say something that they'll be shot down and that they'll be embarrassing for them. It happened to one of our listeners and it has happened to other people who have sworn who are very still active in other parts of the town and they hate it. So that might be a more equanimity. It would be one line item that would be all these different places still. They can choose. Under 250. Over 250. Over 250. How many did we have last year? I got this hard part right there. Some of them are pretty sizable. But where does the under 250 come into play? That's something that under 250 they write a letter. They just write a letter. It is one article. And would we still do that? I don't know. You could decide whether or not to do it. We have to ask the voters to put it on the question. I would say we would. Would we? To change something from considered a town meeting to a Australian ballot, I think we have to go to town one day. Can I see one of them? Do you want the town report? I've got another one right there. We just want to see how much of the stuff that we're doing is money. Because then it's like is anyone even going to come to town meeting? No, they're not. I mean, as it is, what do we vote on here? Well, I'll have it for you in a second. I'm trying to find the right. We vote on our town budget. But nobody has many questions. No, we don't. That's Australian, too. But you could vote on things like signs for button and bill. You could vote on a bond to improve the highway department. Are you ready to say where last year? Yes. $5,000 to the Middlesex Conservation Fund. $600 for Central Vermont Economic Development. $4,050 for Central Vermont Home Health and Hospice. $3,000 to support community connections. $1,500 to support girls, boys, first, mentoring. $29,801 for the Kellogg-Hubert Library. $5,500 for the Kellogg-Hubert Library. $5,500 for the Kellogg-Hubert Library. $5,000 for the Kellogg-Hubert Library. $5,000 for the Kellogg-Hubert Library. $5,000 for the Kellogg-Hubert Library. $1,500 for the Kellogg-Hubert Library. $1,500 for the Kellogg-Hubert Library. This specifically needs to get rid of town though. Already? Yes, we all need to get rid of town now. Manage for God's κιmp community minorities, where does it fit? What was the $171. So that's it. But you're Ewan. Well, she is a different year. Yeah. I mean, you guys don't have to consider this now. But I just think that the first thing I need now is to tell on clerk is I need a policy that I can give to people because I haven't been able to put that policy out there about whether or not you're going to require petitions or if you're not going to require petitions. But whatever you do, you have to be consistent. Well, the only time we've ever been inconsistent is when we did that Kellogg-Hubert Library thing. That's a big article. That's $29,000. Sarah, I understand that. And I'm embarrassed that we did that. And I can't remember why we did it. Our policy has always been that you need to do a petition over. And we've talked about establishing committees. We've talked about all kinds of other things. As somebody who spends a reasonable amount of time every year getting the petitions, I have to tell you in middle sex is not that unbelievably bad. You go up five or six times to the school at the end of school and you stand there and you'll get your 80 signatures. So it is not where it is hard is, and I get this, is when you don't have, no, no, when you don't have, when you don't have somebody from town representing you, like Mary and I do, Home Health and Hospice, Economic Development, I can't even remember the third one we do, but we stand there and we get the signatures. And the other thing I would say is, you get it, not always, but you get a chance to talk to people and say, well, what does that organization do? You guys, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, you have a little back and forth with them, which I think is a nice thing. But if you're an organization, which doesn't have a board member, or can't find somebody in middle sex to do this, it's hard for them. They shouldn't be getting money from us because they're not serving our people. If they can't find somebody. They are serving, Mary, they are serving our people. I'm just, listen, I'm just telling you what I hear. All I'm saying is that if you can't find anybody, then they should be going to another town. I just want to know, I haven't met a stranger. I just want to see, there was a reason why we know. And it wasn't just like, oh, let's just. No, it wasn't, no, it wasn't. Maybe John Julio was saying. I know it's George Long and you're came in, I haven't met a stranger here. George Long. But we wouldn't make us, we wouldn't say, okay, you guys don't have to do it because we like you. That's not what we want. No, no, no. That's what I'm saying. That would be wrong. Right, so that's what I'm saying. There's a logical reason. Okay, well I have the minutes right here. She's so great. I don't think we're gonna like what we hear. Oh. This is by Nen, it's our wonderful thing. It's because we can't keep it on our little brains. No. I, I rest, I wasn't there. Yeah. So, speaking on behalf of Kelly Cooper Library Executive Director Tom McCown, I'm sorry, speaking on behalf of the Kelly Cooper Library Executive Director Tom McCown, George said library, that's George Long, I heard, is asking a special article requesting level funding, article requesting level funding from last year, 29,801 be placed on the March, blah, blah, blah, town meeting, warning by the select board is dead by petition for several reasons. He said valuable staff time is devoted to soliciting over 75 names of middle sex voters, even though middle sex has historically funded the library without significant qualms at town meeting and only two towns served by the library still require petitions. Peter says the board has discussed this issue numerous times before. The question has always been, if the board agrees to put the library on the morning, will that open the floodgates for other organizations? He said if the board chooses this route, it will do so only for the library and the town's conservation fund and not necessarily for everyone else. John, I guess that was cool, yeah. John suggested required petitions only if the library is increasing its funding requests. The board agreed that ultimately the voters would make the decision at town meeting by deciding the library's special article. Liz, move. Oh, geez. Don't do your work, I like it, sure. So, yeah, so I really didn't say much about that, except that the other towns didn't require the, right, the gist of it was that library staff is devoted to this with the voters ultimately will be able to get to the say of whether or not something goes up or down. So, by a petition, it doesn't really do much good, especially since, so that was your... And we don't require the Middlesex Conservation to have a petition either. Would we require them to have a petition? That's like for you guys to decide, all right, we can put special articles on at our choice. Oh, and so that's what we were doing at the time. We were putting it, we were making that decision as a select board. Correct, to put it on the same. To put it on, that's, okay, that's how we got away with saying this particular group doesn't have to get signature. And all I'm asking for is for you to revisit that policy. But you're revisiting the policy in general about signatures. Our policy is to get petitions. Our policy now is to get petitions. What about a helicopter library? We violated it once. It's not even violating the shows. It's not violating, that's a strong word. We didn't agree that we were gonna do that forever in the future. We just did it once. I mean, if they came to me now, I would say, George, you're welcome to come up to the school with me and we'll get those signatures. Okay, so that says, because at that meeting, I remember you saying afterwards, we need to talk about in the future, whether or not we should require petitions because it's a lot of work. I'm not sure it does any good. And we're talking about it right now. Exactly. But I agree with Mary that there is a point to having the recognition of the organization, talking to people. It takes it one step away. You're more removed when you're just sticking it on there, even though you know you're gonna... It's just one more letter of people, right? And it's, you don't even have to do a grant application. You write four paragraphs. Or do you talk about petitions? If you don't have petitions, and it's just, you know, $5,000 would be considered, for some of those, a big donation. And to write one letter that you happily have in your machine and you can just change the year, I just, I don't get it. I don't agree with it. I believe that if people want money because they support these, they can get out and do it. I used to always do a lot of petitions and I started now. And I get people in the fall. So, Sarah, are you asking for us to pick a dollar amount? Or you can pick a dollar amount. I just need to be able to tell people because people are, what I've been getting this summer is we heard that Kellogg Hubbard Library didn't have to solicit petitions because their funding didn't increase. Do we, can we not have to solicit them? That's where we are. This is why this is on the agenda. Well, here's what I would suggest in, because we've got some more stuff to do tonight. Let's all think about this. And let's put it on there. I mean, we need to do this soon because I agree people are calling and asking. And certainly if we're going to stay with the same thing, we need to get a letter off to the Kellogg Hubbard Library. That was a one-time exception. And, you know, we're back to our policy, whatever it is. All right. Well, then what I'm going to tell, if you don't mind, I am going to tell people that just in case, because it's the beginning of school, there's sporting events, people are already getting their petitions together, followed, I'm going to put up the petitions on the websites so people can download them and just say, just cover your butts, go get out and get petitions. Maybe you won't need all the signatures, but let's stick by the policy. Well, I would say the select board at its next meeting will be making a decision on amending the policy or not. Okay. So you can wait until the middle of September, because that's way, way, way ahead. Here's the petition. You need 72 signatures. And then if we change it, we can put something else up. We can call. Well, whatever. I find it hard to believe that people are out there running around now getting signatures. Maybe some people are. Well, I haven't run into anybody. They are? Well, they do start soon, yeah. I mean, when's the harvest dinner, right? I don't know. How'd you like to be, how'd you like to be, so the Kellogg-Hubert Library is not, excuse me, not the Kellogg-Hubert Library, Home, Health, and Hospice, because the city of Montpelier cut their request by $10,000 last year, including in the budget. So now, so now they are doing a petition in Montpelier, and it's a lot of signatures in Montpelier. It's a big deal. They're probably asking for a lot of money. Well, they are. The $10,000 that was cut plus whatever their cost of living is. Whatever. What Carol Dawes can figure out is that the special articles amount to an increase of $0.33 on the tax rate in the very city. But the budget, which would amount to a $0.32 increase in the tax rate, keeps getting down, voted down. Right. Because people like the idea of supporting those charitable organizations, and they don't like paying for the built-in costs. Well, here's the problem is it is unbelievably challenging to raise money from individuals. And the towns in the past have been an easy hit. Like what I would say is, people who want to support the Kellogg-Hubert Library, let them give money to the Kellogg-Hubert Library or not. And you know, to say that the town just very much. But I have no problem with us giving money if the voters approve it. I do have a problem making it too easy. Because it is a guaranteed pool of money. And I just disagree that they should be able to come into one meeting or write one letter and get thousands of dollars. And just do. I don't think that's fair. I'm not disagreeing with you, Mary. I mean, they have to show they're doing something in the community that there's somebody who feels strongly about them. And that does happen in time. I mean, people stand up and say, this is how many people were served by our organization. This is what we did for your town. And the voters decide yes or no. That's because they got the signatures. I don't understand. But all I'm saying is the countervailing argument is, you put them on there and let the voters decide. And what you would say is it's too easy in that every organization wants more money and we never vote anything down. But the petition hasn't helped that problem, I don't think. I mean, we have more and more people every year asking for more and more money every year. So it isn't like it's. If they could all write a letter and with the home health, would you think they'd jump it up? All they had to do was write a letter and get it on the ballot? I think I would tell you that there would be, they better have somebody there who's ready to explain the big increase in town meeting. Otherwise, it's not going to get so hard. Some of them, where nobody gets up to talk about it and they still get approved. Not many. I've been to every town. More and more every year. Mary, I'm not going to argue with you. To me, the only reason not to do what Sarah is proposing, which is to make an Australian ballot and greatly increase the participation, is I don't think it's going to make any difference. And I think that's 25% of our town meeting. And that's just a whole other group of people that won't come to town meeting. That's right. It will be the demise of town meeting. I'm very much against it. I'm very much against it too, because all the people who want that is just like they talked about the school budget. Now you can't talk about any elements of it. At any meeting, you can't talk about the school budget, because it's done by Australian ballot. But there's the old argument is you're not getting the participation because people boy, they weren't going to the school meeting. I mean, you think they don't come to town meeting. They really weren't going to the school meeting. So anyway, I understand the argument on both sides. So next time, there's 200. So the questions are, do we continue our current policy, or do we amend it in some way? And is $250 still the magic number? I would say, obviously, if we say it's not 250, it's now $500. All those guys who asked for 250 are instantly going to be asking for 500. So I think there's danger. There's danger in that. That's our next meeting, the 17th? Yeah, it must be, yep. OK. I won't be here. I'm flying to my son's wedding. Yeah. Baby's weddings. Life goes on. Approval of the August 20th. You can't do that because you weren't there. Oh. I wasn't. Was I? All of the approval of the August 20th minutes. Second. All in favor of the approving, the August 20th minutes. Say aye. Aye. Aye. I abstain. Mary abstains. Any opposed? And we've approved the minutes. Follow up on possible town encroachment of private property due to regular maintenance of Culver Hill and French Road. This is all good news, and it's all very fast. Wait a minute. That might be the wrong one. That's the wrong one. That's the wrong one. Mary, you were there. Sorry. Here, this is the one to sign. The pink house? That's not it. Aye. Aye. Very good. So what's this? I don't know. Just give it to me. I'll just pretend it never happened. It probably was when I just printed out. Oh, that was when I just printed out regarding fucking caliber of life. Oh, hilarious. He signed out when he got nothing. I did. So the good news is that Paul did. Steve, do you want to say this? Tell what happened with the McManus'? Sure. So Paul went over there to do some layout for the signs over there. Culver Hill and French Road. Yeah. OK. And there were some people out there anyway. And then he saw Sarah's email. And he stopped and he talked to me. And I said, you go right over there and talk to them. Because one of the things where they were talking about us and crouching on their land, there's some delineated markers that are on the edge of their lawn. And Paul remembers putting those back in way long time ago. So we have the reflectors. And they've been there. So we haven't been going past that. So anyway, we are doing a little fix-up on that road anyway and on that corner and with some signs. And the only thing that I did say to Paul is that because there's her brother's name. Pat and Steve? Mike? Mike Patterson. Mike Patterson, I couldn't pull it out. If Mike thinks there's something different in how that road was laid out way back, then he's welcome to survey that and tell us that. Come up with that information. What is it, 25 from the center? Yes, basically, three-rod road. But I was just saying and giving them the out that there is a possibility that over the years went back, that that road came up more and there was a lot sharper corner there and before those markers ever got put in. So if that's the case and we're on their land, well, that's a different story. Do they want us to move the markers? No. So it's resolved itself? Pardon? Has it resolved itself then? Yes, I believe it has resolved itself. Paul went over everything with him, what we were doing, and they seem to be happy with that. OK. Great. Nice job. So were we anywhere on the Culver Hill French Road? That's a different situation, right? No, that's what he's finding out right now. No, that's the same thing. Oh, it is the same thing. I'm sorry. That's now great. It's the same thing. OK, yep, I know. That's our last name, isn't it? Yeah. Steve Heading-Hatterson. Yeah. Yeah. So that we should be good there. Affirmation of request to cater permit for Zen Barn. What does the affirmation mean? So I mean ratification, I used the wrong word. I'm sorry. This is the Zen Barn needed a permit. They need to get their permit into the Department of Ligger Control at least five days before an event. There wasn't a select, because this came in after the last select we're being before the select we're being, and they wouldn't have made it. So I approved it, because you said I could, once upon a time, approve these catering permits for the spread festival. And I just want to get it into the minutes that you ratify it. Yeah. Sir, motion? Moved. I do. Fill the motion. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Any opposed? We've approved it. Do we routinely approve things like that? Only if it's a situation like this, and then I usually bring them to the board. But you said by, I'm sorry, one point during the select board of prior meeting, people said it was OK. They're just catering permits, like usually for things like weddings or something like that. And usually everyone can get them into the last minute. I wonder if this is going to be as busy as the Samores festival. I think it's going to be huge. It's getting national coverage. Yeah, it is. Right. What is their time to do? Do a record? Make the biggest piece of it. So I do think at some point, we want to talk as the board about just the whole safety and parking, because the last event that we had was. Was it the Samores in the winter, though? It was. But there was traffic on both sides of the road all the way up to the parking ride. I think there was, I'm not sure if there was a sheriff there. I can't remember. Do you remember what Samores authority the board would have over this? I don't know. I just know that it's a town function. And I think we just need to know what responsibilities we may have with these giant events. No, what if it's in the town? And just what is our responsibility? We don't give them a permit to do that, because it's just their own land. This is the beginning and the end of your permit type of flow. Right. I don't know. I just think we need to be mindful of the fact that a lot of people are coming into the town. There's a lot of traffic. There's. Oh, you're right. There's some people walking. There's no sidewalks for people to walk on. So if these events are common events that are getting lots of people, we are going to need to. Maybe you guys ought to think about some sort of ordinance or permitting. Like if you expect an event of over such and such that you come to the board and discuss safety things. Right. That's what I'm thinking about is from a safety and a liability. My knowledge right now, you don't have any. Nope. We don't necessarily have parking there. Like you said, cars are then along the side of the road. You know, we could force them to have remote parking and bus people there. We could do all kinds of things. If you have an ordinance. Yeah. Yeah. That's what you need. Who has an ordinance like that, do you think? I don't know what we can do. That's a job for your select board assistant. Very shitty. There you go. If they have all those parades. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Waters are signed correspondence. None. None. Yay. Yay. Discussion of roadside dumping of furnace and mattress that I am. God, I hate looking at that stuff. Me too. How long did it take there? I mean, I saw the. Wait, where was this? This is now the border of Brookin Center. Yeah. So on Brook Road, at Brookin Center, there's a couch and a chair over stuff. The rain's pouring on them. And right down Brook Road beyond that, somebody dropped off about eight tires and some wheels. I was at the pull off there because I They do the same thing on the edge of Culver Hill Road. They do mattresses. I've seen a couch. Yeah. I mean, it's one thing. I think hard to have the couch, but that's on his own land. You know, he has that couch there in front of that. There's so many good stuff out on their own land. That's a different issue. But I mean like. But who is it on? Who is it on Natch Road who keeps putting stuff on that? I think Steve Sobel and I think that's that thing. On that corner? Yeah. That's Steve Sobel. That's on his land. He owns that house right on the corner. The two chairs, and I suspect that I know where they came from. I mean, I guess what do we do? Is there just, once again, does the board have any enforcement? If you don't know, do we just go and stick our hands in the cushions and come up with a receipt or, you know? I don't know. I'm not sticking my hand. I'm not either. Is that the select board assistant now? No, I don't think so. DNA analysis. Who is doing this kind of stuff? I don't know. But it seems to be getting worse. Yeah. Yeah. And is it even a local person? We don't know. I mean, we could put a post on the front porch for them that's like, did the guys from the highway department pick it up? No, they don't have it. I don't think they would. Well, I would tell you I have, over the years, picked up quite a bit of that stuff and taken it to the dump. Meaning like to sell it? Yeah. Well, I'm getting. I mean, I've done it. I bet 10 times I've picked up stuff and taken it over there. And it's nasty. I mean, when that stuff sits out there, it's all wet. It's into the riverways. Well, it's a problem. I don't know what to do about stopping that, but I do think that we should pick it up as soon as possible and take it to the dump. Because all it does is attract more somebody else doing it. I think that those dumping signs don't really work either, like just putting a sign that says no illegal dumping, I mean. Well, I don't think we put it on the road crew. I think we got, whether it's Cassella or somebody else, we say we've got three loads of stuff you need to pick up, come and get it, and send us the bell. We're going to make them go down the ledge and bring this thing up. No, they're not going to do that. No. Where is the one that you're talking about? I'm just talking about this one. No, this is right side of the road. This is right on the side of the road. This is right at the center of the road. It's not down over the bank. It's down over the bank thing, unfortunately. I think there's a thing for it growing up today, unfortunately. Yeah, that's me going down the bank. Well, I understand. Well, I'm going down the bank, and I'm not getting something. I'm going down the bank and picked up some small pieces of predictors, like bookcases and stuff. Thank you, Mary. Listen, we're getting phone calls from people saying it's unsightly, and it's gross, and yeah. Oh, OK, so it's just still sitting there. It's still sitting there, right on if you go up through Brook Road, or you'll see it tonight. God, I can't believe it. Oh, no, I didn't drive Brook Road this morning. Well, I would recommend for those if we're aware of any situation, other situations on the roadside that aren't on the property owner's land, I give our select board assistant authority to contact Cassella or whoever and have them pick that stuff up on the road. It might be a thing where that Cassella won't stop and do that, but you can get some other vocal horror grunts, move junk, you know, somebody to come pick it up. Should put it in a French port form saying the select board isn't interested in local haulers submitting bids to remove junk from the property. No, no, no, no, the more we publicize it, the worse. Yeah, just get somebody, and Darby doesn't get somebody and they haven't do it. It's going to encourage people to get rid of all their stuff by leaving it. Yeah, that's right, that's true, OK. I think I got a guy. OK, so I'm very carefully reading Sarah's note to me, which has special meaning. It says what? It says our special name. That's special meaning. And I want to have a discussion, take no actions about what next steps might be with regard to our fire department and the issues that have been brought to our attention. Is that going to be executive session or is that going to be OK? No, I don't think it needs to be executive session. We're not taking any action. But I think we need to have a plan of how we're going to address it. And I took it upon myself to contact Rob Halpert last Friday. He has Tim to call me back, which he did on Monday, and said, Rob, I just want to make sure that I have this correct in my mind, which is what authority do we have over the fire department, OK? And what he verified to me was, and he has since sent me some more documentation, which I haven't had a chance to review yet. If we're going to do something, he's ready to give us a legal opinion, which we can put in the minutes or whatever, is that the only authority we have is the authority of the purse. Like, we can withdraw our funding. Well, the other thing, we can don't be on that building. We can evict them from the building. Well, I asked him that question, and he wasn't so sure about that. He said, but if you withdraw all financially, because I said to him, I said, can we say you are no longer authorized to use our building? You are no longer authorized to use our equipment? He said, let me think about that and get back to you. But he said, the way to do it is to withdraw the money. So if we don't put it in our budget anymore, I guess we'd have to accept a petition if one was submitted. But other than that, we have no control over their day-to-day activities or how they conduct their business. And that's a state thing? Or what is the statute? So when I was looking online, I was just seeing of what some other towns did. And one of them had the authority, they had an ordinance of some sort that said they had the right to remove the chief, for example. And just for the record, I'm not suggesting we're removing anyone. I just was, what are you? That's when it's set up under the auspices of the town. This is an independent not-for-profit. And we're allowing them to use the things that we buy. And we're funding them. But that's the problem. But these are volunteer fire departments. Don't all volunteer fire departments sort of follow the same? So ours happens to be a 501C3. And many towns. Ours happens to be a really, really unusual one. Set up to the limit of all of this. No, it is not that unusual. He said to me, way more than half of the volunteer fire departments in small towns. And then we said in small towns, big towns are different. So he qualified by saying small towns are organized exactly the way we are. So I mean, I guess my question is, and this is what doesn't make sense, let's say you found out that your chief was embezzling money. So could you, we would have no authority over it. No, this is Garrett Baxter when we asked him back in June about this. He said, look, he's a lawyer for VLCT. That was the League of Citizens. Yeah, and he said, unless then until the town votes to establish it as a municipal fire department, then the select board has no statutory. It's already over incorporated or incorporated volunteer. And they incorporated, I have the documentation here. The select board asked me to get this in 1964. And then they redid it. Hey, how'd you find it? It was a process. But let me ask, can you be a municipal fire department that's volunteer? Yeah, yes. That's where I was going with this. We could establish a town of middle sex fire department. My vote of the electorate. Yes. Right. Tell me. Tell me. Yeah. And most people, 99% of the people in town don't understand any of this. Myself, who's on the select board. Right. But then that gives us the authority over, more authority over the fire department, which is what this person had been saying when they talked about the term municipal. OK, so I was assuming that municipal sort of meant kind of the way that my pillar is in terms of like that you would have to hire. You know, you would have to pay your. But no, you could have a volunteer municipal fire department. Now, what is the disadvantage to having that? Like why money? Well, the question is, so let's say we were to do that. Say, you know, effective, you know, next year's budget year, there will no longer be a budget to support your nonprofit organization. And we're going to be fang name a town fire department. Question number one is anybody who's interested in serving on that fire department, please raise their hand. Probably we would lose, probably we'd lose almost all, if not all, our existing fire department. So then you're starting from scratch. Why? Because what is going to change for them? It's just a. Right now, they are very proud, as we have seen, that they have their organization down there that they run and they're responsible for. And the issue is, when we hear, through various means and ways, that they are not a, responding very well to fire calls in particular, and b, not being very cordial to new members who are interested in joining, that's a problem. I mean, we can bring them in here and say, guys, you need to do better. But we saw their response when they were in here. I mean, in my mind, unfortunately, I think the alternative is, and I don't know how we get from here to there, and it's going to be messy. But we need to establish a town fire department and have one or possibly two paid, trained, experienced people on staff who then go out and recruit, train, encourage, volunteer so that we have a real fire department. And is that going to be expensive? You bet it is. It's going to be, but it's going to be a lot less expensive than having the city of Ontario. But you still have mutual aid. Yeah, so here's the other question, which I was going to try and find the answer out to today. And then I ultimately decided I didn't dare ask anybody the question. If we no longer had a fire department for some period of time, how long will mutual aid continue to respond to our fires? They might say, if you don't have a fire department, there is no mutual aid, and you have no fire protection at all, in which case we would have to immediately turn around and hire Waterbury or Montpelier or whoever we could get to respond to our fire. I mean, it's a dark and stormy. Well, and then you have this asset here of the building and all of the equipment, but is there a scenario where you would have Montpelier be your fire department, and then you would also have like a branch of the Montpelier department here? We never explored that in the past. We explored. Because what would you do with your asset? Well, a fire department. Someone would use it. Make an elephant town clerk's office. I mean, the equipment can be solved, OK? That's not an issue. The building, obviously, is a bigger issue. But my recommendation is that we would only do something like that as a stop-gap interim measure. And I think it has to come before the voters. They would need to have to understand the financial responsibility we're taking on. But just to try and start an all-volunteer fire department over from scratch, to me, it's just too daunting, too daunting. You're talking about having a full-time firefighter 24-7? I'm not saying they would be 24-7, but I'm saying they would be responsible for the operation of the fire department. So the fire department needs to be available 24-7. I wouldn't expect you could pay anybody any amount to be truly available 24-7. But we would have, and I don't know what the magic number is, but I think it has to be more than one in less than five firefighters. And trained firefighters don't come cheap. I suspect you're talking 50,000, 60,000, maybe more, plus benefits, plus blah, blah, blah. But I think that's something we haven't. And maybe we need to, and I want everybody to just think about this. But maybe we need to hire, I mean, obviously I don't know who they are, but I'm sure we can find out who they are, and get a consultant in here to talk to us about how we do this. What about Paul Atenty? He seems to have a lot of fire department background. Who? Paul. Atenty. He does, but I don't know whether he's the right person. Well, he's been involved down there to a pretty good extent. He's been teaching at BTC, he's been teaching fire safety at BTC. He's well aware of the standards. I don't know if he's. Well, certainly in terms of somebody in town, that's the only person. But the other thing, too, is that I would be curious to know when you're looking at towns our size with volunteer fire departments, for example, what are the response rates for other towns? Are our response rates grossly slower than other towns, or are they actually on par with other towns? Because it's the nature of a volunteer fire department to have to take 40 minutes to get to a fire. And so I don't want to take one person's, we're talking like the middle of the day when everyone's at work, you know? And so I don't want to take one person's word for this to say how bad our fire department is. I have no idea because I have no comparison to say that our fire department is slow. Our fire department makes poor decisions. I don't, I mean, a lot of it's just hearsay. It's like, yeah, I know that there were some screw ups. I know they exist. Was that ineptitude or was that could have happened to any volunteer fire department? I don't know. I think the answer is it happens to many volunteer fire departments. So what we're having going on here is happening in a lot of other places. It's harder and harder to get volunteers. And I think what makes the difference as in almost any volunteer driven organization is leadership. If you have good leadership, good leadership attracts good people and you get a good, vibrant organization with a reasonable number of members and a reasonable response rate and reasonable service. We are cursed by a couple of things in middle sex, the biggest one being the interstate that so many of our calls, huge percentage of our calls were up on the interstate aren't even our town residents. Which to me is, it's interesting, you're in the New York throughway. There's a response to an incident on the New York throughway. It's the New York throughway police, the New York throughway fire department, whatever. The state has put a hidden tax on us and on all other towns where the interstates go because they were required to respond to these interstate calls. But that's a down the road thing. I mean, the reason I like the idea, or at least the thought of having a consultant is if somebody come in, we're in my view, we're not gonna get anywhere having those guys come in here and talk to us. I just could feel it in my bones when they were here the last day. But we can't be afraid to be taking action because we're afraid they're all gonna quit and then we're gonna have no one to fire the fire department. No, no, no. I'm not saying that at all. But I'm saying the idea of having, whether it's Paul or someone else, come in and go down there and meet with them, look at their call records, look at their incident reports, talk to them about how they build membership and come back to us and say, I think a few small changes could make a big difference or I think you're in a hopeless situation or whatever it is. But I think... Well, these consultants are also designed to help the volunteer fire departments come up with ways to do recruitment. So this isn't all about what are you doing wrong. It's like, how are we doing things that would make improvements. It's important to paint up, we're trying to help you. Right, because that's what we're trying to do. We're not trying to oust anyone. When we had them in here and said those kinds of things to them, we saw what the response was. All I'm saying is, and I'm incredibly frustrated by this whole thing because I just feel like it's a problem that isn't going away. I'm ready to, this is where I'm a big spender. I'm ready to spend some money to have somebody come in here and take a look at this and come back to us and make some recommendations. I would look for a grant for this because I think it could exist. Them being a private organization, do they have to let somebody in to review their records? It's our building. Yeah, but their records aren't yours. Well, if they, well, the records are public records. Yeah, the dispatch reports are public records. But they're not public, I think they are. Sure they are. Non-profit. Their incident reports get submitted to the city. Oh yeah, they have to. I don't know the incident reports. Maybe other stuff that they wouldn't have to share with you. Sure, but the incident reports. But I think whether they'll let somebody in and... I mean, what we care about is... If they don't, then it's a self-fulfilling privacy, isn't it? Yeah, I have to back up Dorenda and Steve. From what I've seen, there's just really nothing that they're going to... Agree to. Yeah, no. No, they really operate in as a very independent group. And in a publicly owned group. But how do you know that there's a fire? Someone calls 911, right? Yeah, the best that is all. But there's an incident report from the dispatch that we at least know and there must be some indication of when the fire department arrives. You can get that all from Capitol Central. Yeah. Right. And they would show when Middlesex arrives. So those are... They have to call in so-and-so on... And then when it's come to insurance matters, remember, we do provide insurance coverage with them. Right. That's huge. And the debt service for all their... Debt service and insurance. But they, you know, I've had to go down insurance. There have been... I've had to go to that building and get reports. But that's only in an insurance case and they have to... But all I'm saying is if they truly take that position and they don't want to... And they expect us to continue paying for all their stuff, that's where we go to the voters and say, hey, voters. And run the risk of losing the chief and the people who know how to do that. Or at least a few of them. I don't know that about Middlesex. Well... There aren't many to lose. Most of them don't live in Middlesex. There's only one, I think. Dupont, who lives in Middlesex. Well... Jeff Koonslitz. Jeff Koonslitz. I've lived in Middlesex. Three years. Who else? Eric Natavia. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a lot of work. I've only said it, I think, in total. The best scenario would be if we could find a way to convince them to work with us and do what they're supposed to do, but they haven't proven they're gonna do that at all. I think Steve, you're absolutely right. But that's the problem. Yeah, I know. They, they... I don't think Peter asked them to do very much. No. And they wouldn't even do that. But then here's the question. How many people are sitting out there on their couches right now going, if only I could join the fire department or I would, if it were a different fire department? We don't know. No, we don't know that. We don't know that, but I can tell you that. But I know volunteers are really hard to find for volunteer fire departments. Very hard to find. There are some out there, though. I think they're hard to find. Another problem you might be up against is Marge and Bob Bauer are EMTs. And I know they are out constantly. The fast quad. Yeah, they are. And you may lose that as a result because they are a very important part of... Right, they're an asset. They're an asset. They definitely are. And... They live in middle sex. They don't have to work with her. But they are amazing. And Marge is the treasurer. And Marge is the treasurer. So... Well, I think what we do is go back and say, okay, this message wasn't very well received the last time we presented it. But now this is a firm or sterner message. We want to help make improvements there. And we're ready to do it with your assistance in cooperation or without it. And you guys seem to think about that and then get back to us. I don't know. I don't know what else to say to them. I mean, Marge and Bob Bauer might be happy to stay around and if we were to change things somewhat. Is that something you want me to put on for the next meeting? Do you want me to bring the fire in? Well, all I wanted to do in my life was have a discussion and figure out... I feel like one of us needs to go to one of their meetings. Ask if we can go to one of their meetings. They don't have that many, do they? Well, this is the second Tuesday of the month. What's in Phil? Just kidding. I'd go, but I'll be at the... I know, that's why I was kidding because you're at the telecommunication. And also, one last thing, before we do this, was we get into budget season. Last year, you said you really don't want to have... bring in all the people to come and make their pitches, like the fire department, the conservation commission, and also within the little highway department. Do you want to do that this year? Do you want me to schedule the fire department to come in and make its budget pitch? Do you want to bind the two things with the budget pitch and this conversation? Last year, you said that there were the... but you weren't getting much out of the budget. I know. I definitely want to have the fire department come in in the budget process, even if it's sort of a joke. I think that's because that's the only element of control we have. In terms of some having the conservation commission come in, I'm happy to have them submit something for us in writing. I think we can go down the list and decide who we want to meet with. The highway department, I guess we don't need to meet with them. They don't spend very much money. We'll just accept a written proposal from them. No, I am just very motivated to make some decisions and move forward on this process. And it's so easy when we're so busy to just keep on going along. And it isn't working. It isn't working. Right. So I'm happy to say let's... Yeah, we're always putting it off. Let's think about this until the next meeting and then make some decisions. But I guess what I would ask you to do with Madam Select Board Assistant is see, maybe have a conversation with Paul and say would you be the right person? Would you be willing to take on some kind of a role in this process or is there someone else we should be talking to? I have a little concern that they have troubles with him, too. Like that they see him as someone pushing him. What do you mean? They have trouble with him. They have trouble with him. They're tentative. Oh, I just have this feeling. It's a tough one. I've worked for years as a consultant. You know, you get called in as a consultant because somebody perceives a problem. And then, you know, I mean, people know why you're there. I don't think he's the right person as our emergency management person. I don't think he's the right person to be the consultant. I think you hire a complete independent outsider. But he may have contacts. Yeah, Stowe just did one in 2016. And they hired a company out of New Hampshire to do the assessment. And it was a huge, I just looked it up on the slide. Expensive. It's very expensive. I bet it was $30,000. But I'm wondering if there are funds available, too, to apply through, you know, for these kinds of things. Really, through the Fire Safety Institute? Yeah, something like that. I'll call them and see if by any chance. I mean, I'm just wondering if the State Fire Marshal's office or somebody like that, you know, might be able to, there's got to be something. There's got to be a common problem. It is a common problem. And you know, the bottom line is, middle sex right now is in a transition from a sleepy small town to a bigger entity. I don't know exactly what that is. But the fire department is just emblematic of that. It's just, it's like the roads. People now moving here, they expect different types of roads. They expect a high-functioning fire department. They expect internet. They expect internet. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's in a transition. But this is a little different to the extent that we don't have control. I mean, that's part of this really is a structural problem. I mean, if we could, and you know, this is where I get back to the page, then to hire someone who, I mean, I don't have expertise in anything about fire departments. Yeah, I know I don't work on trucks, but I don't know how to fight fires. And I don't know how you recruit people to be on volunteer fire departments, but the fire departments who are successful are fire departments who have good leadership, who are positive about accepting new members, who are welcoming to new members, who see to the proper training of new members and all that stuff. And you know, I hate to throw stones at these guys. These guys have put in tons of time, tons of time volunteering for the fire department. But it isn't what they're doing is not working. In my view, I don't agree. Yeah, and I, since I found out that it was a 501C3, I just, it just gnawing at me that says, you know, we put a lot of money in our budget for this department. Yeah, and they always say it's only $35,000, and it's like, no, there's the dental. Exactly, exactly. That's why I want to put all those things together. Yeah. Because we're spending about $200,000 on them. Right, right, yeah. Well, there's the Division of Public Safety, Division of Fire Safety. I'll call them and see if there's anyone that they can possibly direct me to. That'd be great. Maybe if you call the Stowe and find out about their pro thing too. I'm just saying. I know, I know. I'm sure they've been so expensive. Well, and the thing with Stowe too is that they have all these tourists, right? And that, and the cost of the EMT and they've got hardships for old people and all kinds of things. So they're, and it's a volunteer, I wouldn't say, I would just say, it's a volunteer to part. Yes. I'm just saying to get some, you know, they interview five people. This guy was great. And maybe this one's cheaper, that kind of stuff. Yeah. But whatever. I just want to start down some path where we're taking action and not sitting on our hand. We need to be able to call our five towns in this district and just say, you know, or Worcester, Calis and Marshfield or something, some similar sized towns and just say, you know, what, can we look at your response rate? And I mean, and this is the thing. It's like, I don't know that what this person is. It isn't just, it isn't just response rate. I know it's not just response rate. It's a lot more than that. I know. I think we can find out the response rate through Capital West. Yeah. It's really, it's really ultimately comes down to me that it's a leadership problem. Well, this is right. Look at this. There's a grant assistance to firefighters grants for volunteer fire departments enhance the fire department's safety, organization ability, blah, blah, assist fire perfection, blah, blah, blah. There are grants there. All the grants are closed, periods are closed, but there are grants available. They're just closed right now. Yeah. There you go. Well, does this make sense to everybody? I mean, it's, I just think. No, we definitely need to stay on this. Because we've been on an approach and avoidance for a while, for years. Right. I think the consultant idea makes sense. But it'll just give us a lot of information in terms of then finding, you know, and maybe the right way to getting back to your ideal is maybe the right way to sell us is to say, listen, we want to have a joint meeting between your board and our select board, especially warned joint meeting where that's the only subject and they aren't going to like it. I know they're not going to like it, but. Who do we think is on their board? Do we have any? Well, I think we just made the fire department meeting. It's the fire department meeting with me. I think, isn't Jeff president? Well, Jeff's president. Doug's the chief. Doug's chief. Doug's chief. Doug's the treasurer. That's pretty much about it. Yeah. I mean, and you said that my neighbor isn't on there anymore. Who? Which one? Bruce. No, he isn't on there for a while. I mean, what really concerns me more than anything else is when here's our road foreman who is in town all the time. And they gave him the pushback. They gave Bruce Jackson the pushback. And, you know, Bruce is getting a little longer in the tooth like we all are. And part of it may have been, but. He always did their budget stuff. Well, and guess what? He's in town most of the time. It's just, it just. Sorry. Anyway, so, Sarah, if you do a little poking around and for everybody else, I'm going to do some poking around on the internet. And if anybody else has any ideas about anybody to contact. I mean, Paul, I mean, I think what we could say to Paul is, you know, it's important to have an outsider do this. And we're hoping maybe you have some suggestions of people. Maybe you would. We could approach them that way. He also has some insight on the department, I think. Right, right. That he might be able to share that. But they haven't been, you know, again, anything but welcoming to him. Dorothy Allen? Dorothy, you have been to Frank. Oh, no. No, no, that is. OK, I've said my bit. I'm sorry for keeping you all. I think it's important. Do you guys want to have a motion to adjourn the meeting? I'm going to adjourn the meeting. You know, I just read, I said, I just read Robert's rules of order that actually they're supposed to be a motion to adjourn the meeting. I'm just not. It's like a light reading I do. So we've been told over and over again to deal with it. I've been told over and over again. It's funny, I was going to say, boy, is she a fun person. It's their emotion to adjourn. I already have. Is there a second? Fall in favor. We have adjourned. Hello.