 So what do you think needs to change about the way we solve problems? Well, one way to look at it is a shift from control to participation and That depends on there being something to participate in that's bigger than ourselves We can see that sometimes on a human level like if you're working with a community with a group of people And there's something that you all care about and it's bigger than yourself and you begin to ask How can I serve this thing? When you extend it beyond the human to the whole planet then to believe that there is a purpose beyond Beyond ourselves beyond just human beings You're getting into unfamiliar metaphysical territory unfamiliar at least to the dominant culture of the planet modern culture Which says that there is no purpose or intelligence or consciousness outside of human beings That the world is a bunch of stuff without the qualities of a self so if you accept that then order and Progress and intelligence in the world can only come if we impose it upon the world So naturally from that basic assumption naturally we become the dominator species That's a very That that that assumption that we are the only intelligence and the only consciousness that is Pretty much unique to modernity Surviving indigenous cultures don't think that nobody thought that actually until recently And you could historically trace the the origin and development of that way of seeing the world You know back probably to ancient Greece and so forth And I think that that so that's another part of the old story that I call it the the story of separation that is Really ready to transition to transition into We're in a living universe an intelligent universe full of beings There are beings everywhere and they have The qualities of a self not the same way that we do a Dog is not the same as a person the consciousness of a dog It's not the same of a person let alone the consciousness of a brick or or a rock or the sun But our assumption that these things are not these these are things that they are things not beings that they do not have the qualities of a self that That prevents us from seeing things that we need to be seeing and making inquiries that we need to be making Such as what does this what does the land want? What does the soil want now there are people in permaculture or regenerative agriculture who are asking that They're saying hey soil you are a being What do you want? Knowing that not only is the soil a being and the water and everything else But we are our being is not separate from their being There's an intimate relationship between all things and that therefore if we take good care of the soil if we Participate in the health of something bigger that includes the soil Then we will benefit as well Because we're not separate More for you is more for me as well if we have that attitude toward nature then we're not going to treat nature as a pile of disposable resources and a gigantic waist up Because we'll be asking different questions. What is the forest one? What is the water one? What is the ocean one like even to think in those terms already changes everything? How would you propose this to somebody who is very materialistic who has never had this experience Who just listens to this and says what a bunch of hapy nonsense? I Have never heard you know a rock or the dog talk to me and if you have maybe you're crazy You know like and a lot of people do think this way so how do you propose something like this and You know, what if they say okay? Well, you know, I I'm a businessman. I can go and log this forest and make this many Dollars from it. So why do I care about how the forest feels like basically the narrative of avatar? You know Yeah, that's a good example Unless somebody is ready to to step into that belief system then you're not going to be able to persuade them to step into it It's actually not a matter of persuasion because the story of separation is internally coherent and anything any Proposal that violates it can be waved off as hippie nonsense so the question is and And the story that I'm talking about the story of interbeing is also internally coherent. So we have these two stories And this happens in life all the time, you know, you can have two stories about politics or two stories about another person There's there's maybe you know a fighting couple, you know And he has his story and she has her story and whoever you're listening to that one seems right It's like two different realities. So the question then really what you're asking Is how do how do people change their beliefs? What what has to happen for somebody to step into a different belief system? And for me the key is to realize that these are not just intellectual constructs That rise and fall based on evidence and logic, but they are the emanation Or the narrative Skin on top of an entire state of being so if somebody has had a certain experience of life that leaves them alienated traumatized And cut off from The magic and synchronicity and connectedness that's possible in life, then they're going to very naturally gravitate toward Yeah, let's log the force and maximize profits So I I I want to ask, you know What happened to cut that person off and how do we get back in touch get them back in touch with their love and care? for Maybe for the forest or maybe for something anything anything to give somebody an experience of connectedness then they're going to be then then the story of separation the story of This forest represents 30,000 board feet of lumber That it will become less appealing sometimes it You know, it could just be that they have Maybe they have a marital crisis and then a big reconciliation and forgiveness or maybe they're the the bedside of their their father who they'd had a Problematic relationship their whole life and there's forgiveness in that moment and and then like the whole world changes and they become more receptive to to Standing in their care And living to serve And those old Stories become unappealing to them. What's changed here. It's not that you finally Overcame their mental resistance And gave them so much data such strong proof of climate change that they could no longer resist And you defeated them But that seems to be the the vain hope of the climate movement That we're going to defeat defeat the other side. We're going to overwhelm their disbelief with more and more evidence And it is not working So it seems like it just has to be something that organically happens because you know If we take this approach of trying to force people into a new story, then it's basically just the old approach Well, yeah, but that doesn't mean to do nothing It means to really ask how do I create conditions for beliefs to change? How do I create an experience of the world that is more connected more loving more more internet?