 Y Pwylliannod, ac maen nhw'n gwybodaeth yw'r 17th gweithio ffwyd diwethaf y merthun ddameth i ddweud yn Y Cymru yw 2022. Y agenda item 1 â'r hyn a ddefnyddio viadau ar y cyffredinol â ddifolio. Yn hwn mynd i'r ysbydd i ni i gilydd o 5 ac 6 yna ar y prif. Yr Meddwl Eddard? Dym ni'n ddim yn gwybod, yno'n gwybod Cymru, yna gyda'r ddyddol, mewn bobl ydych chi'n ei gael galle i Gaeliaeth Cymraen, ac nid i ddweud eich frofod i gwneud eich gaeliaeth i gaeliaeth Cymraen, cael y mynd? Maen nhw'n eu prynhawn o hollegydd. Fy er mwyn, i gyda'r llai ymmyngor eich bobl, yma gael ei wneud gyda'r gwneud i gaeliaeth i gaer eich bobl yn gennych gyda'r parwg ddynaf, fel ychydig. Felly, rydw i'n meddwl. Rydw i'n meddwl eu cyfrifoedd yr ysgrifennidau? Mae wneud yn fifio'r wildiau ac i'r byw sy'n gweithio'r cymdeithasolol. Mae hefyd yn gweithio gyasgio'r cyfrif ar gyfer cyfio'r gweithio cyfrif, i ffôr i gael eich cyfrif, i ddargarwydau cyfrif, i gael hynny'r gweithio a'r gweithio cyfrif, a i gael eich gwaith gyflosfiadau, i ffôr gweithio gweithio'r cwmdeithio'r cyfrif. Felly, maen nhw'n gweithio'r Cymdeithasol, Llyw Grwyddyn i les iddangos, o'r lleiw yng Nghymru, ac ydw i'r lleiw ystafell, ac mae o'r leidio ein bod yn fysgr i'i gael ei ddatblygu. Mae hyn yn ddiddordeb o wybodaeth o'r lleiw, o'r lleiw, ar y cyflawn i'ch ymdynol, o'r lleiw yn ddod yn gwybodol iawn o'r lleis, a'r lleiw yn gwybodol iawn lleihau yn bwyd, oherwydd yna'r lleiw, o'r lleiw yn gwybodol a'r lleiw yn gwybodol iawn, i'ch o'r llifon i ddechrau'r rhai. It is brought good cross-party interests, and it has continued into this session, gooding with members that now sit on the RAIN committee and the NSET committees in Parliament. I think it will be good cross-party group and having been a convener of previous cross-party groups and previous members of the committee as well, I recognised that there are a lot of cross-party groups in operation at the moment. Na wnaeth beth y cyfaintio fod yn glas, a'r fawr rai amser, a ydych chi i gais i gith averenes o'r ffartigau ymfermau o bobl hwnnw i ddiddordeb yn ddod o'r ffordd o arddangos gw Dancing Fars. Mae oedd nhw'n fawr i chi, dwi'n nhw'n fawr, dwi'n nhw'n nhw'n nhw'n nhw'n nhw i ddiddordeb yn gweld ar hyn o brin sydd yn cyfrifion gwyllu cyfaintio ar gyfer hyn o gyfrifion hyn o'r mae'n fawr i ddim yn gwneud y cwpio'r ddau'r cwpio? Rwyf wedi bod yn cychydigol cyd-dŷrg o'r sydd wedi'i ddau cyfnodol o'r cyfnodol, rwyf wedi'i ddau cyd-dŷrg o'r cyd-dŷrg o'r cyfnodol. Rydw i chi'n ddim yn gwneud i gael cyfnodol o'r cyfnodol o bob hyn o'r potensiol o'r ddau cyfnodol? Rydw i chi'n ddoch chi'n ddau cyfnodol o bob hyn o'r ddau cyfnodol o bob hyn o'r ddau dweud o'rgynno answered the CPGs. The remit is pretty clear. It brings the advantage. If we brought together a programme of potential events, we would then reach out to others and see if there is interest in hosting some of those jointly. There is much of a clear focus on nature and climate emergency. This is the space that does not exist at the moment for discussion and, I think, to get that joined up. ond bydd o wedi cy客lowania solidarion ac ydw i ddweud blaenonach, safGRM ynскогоw. The Prime Minister has incredible confidence in that very broad Cross-party representation of MSPs of indicated interests, obviously many of them sit on other CPGs but to use that contact as the network. With regard to the Secretariate, which is Scott Links, does he just want to explicar who Scott Link is? The Scottish Environment Link is the umbrella body for the environmental NGOs in Scotland. It is a well-resourced, well-experienced organisation, and it gives staff the ability to discharge the duties of the Secretary of the Interior when they are working with my office. I am pleased to work with the Scottish Environment Link in the past, and I think that it has the confidence by all the members of the group as well. In many ways, when we look at the organisation's list, the participants have given, Doing it because you are forwarding it is further and it is much broader than that, given the Forum Nature of Scotland. I thank you for your comment on the responsibility that you and your office will have with regard to the CPG, which is something I might address at the end but not specifically about your CPG. Do members of the committee have any questions? Felly, rydyn ni'n gweithio i chi'n gweithio cyfnod o'r cross-party group ond cross-party group on rural policy. Rwy'n meddwl i chi'n gweithio, Mark, yn gweithio'r gweithio, ond rydyn ni'n gweithio i chi'n gweithio i chi'n gweithio i chi'n gweithio. And I'm just concerned about the overlap and I'm concerned about how you're gonna manage that because a lot of the subjects that you are relating to are covered within those groups. So could you just explain to me a little bit more about how you've reached out to the other groups to find out and have you been looking at their work programmes to see whether this cross-party group neatly fits in? wedi'u sigud o driffoedd o'r peth o'r hyn o'r rhanol. Mae ydych chi weithio ar ôl y defnyddio'r perthawyr cymryd y cilwyr.سegwnaeth eich gast o adnod, ac mae'r cerfnod a'u glifwyr. Dyma mae'r ddyneb yn ei ddysgu y nature and climate emergencies. Anon przyllкуwys y fawr, mae dweud gallu cuir bath yn dduldio o'r mittaf cyfnod yn bach-gredwol aktarn, rydym ni won't y cryw trademark o esienne cyfffridd ac perióed mahesair hwn i ddod. Mae tua framework a Ministeri generatedro yn y d backward parties o hynny, a recessaidd a daith honno'r derygiad cyfoeth a gyda'i cros pentumbledd mwyn, jorsodol yn gafyd y wybodaeth a'r Milton Paニ a chyfников Cymru? The topics doesn't list specifically climate emergencies, they lists a lot of topics that are covered by others. The other question that I had in my commune, if I may, was just on the organisation's. On the basis that a lot of the subject areas that you are going to discuss are covered by user groups. Can I ask why you have just gone for environmental groups within the organisations on it and no user groups in relation to the areas that you are discussing, agriculture, agriculture, forestry, national parks? These are the initial organisations that have come together to propose this group and they have a very specific interest around climate and nature and the interrelations between the two. However, membership is open so if other organisations would be interested in coming to the space then they would be welcome to do that and we would welcome broad conversations about how we can tackle both emergencies together. I think for this to be meaningful it would require those groups to come in for us to have proper debate and discussion. Okay, I think that we are on hand with those. Thank you, Edward. Any other questions from the committee? Alexander? Thank you, convener. Good morning, Mark. I think you've outlined the necessity potentially for a group of us to come together and collaborate with other groups and I think that that is an opportunity because some of these are quite long standing who have been looking at the system over the last term and even prior to that. You talk about the interconnections and there's no doubt that there are interconnections as to how that will be the case and you talk about that you want to influence the government policy as to how things go forward. The forum is to discuss that and it will change and how to influence government policy. Can I ask about how you would envisage that taking place and if you have an agenda to that cause of making sure that you are running parallel with government policy or trying to influence government policy, how you would achieve that? I would hope that the government and members of the government would be involved in the cross-party group and indeed I think in one of the early discussions that we had we were intending to invite a government minister. It would be for the government to recognise this group to attend CPG meetings and to respect the work of the CPG and to listen to its work. I would hope that the CPG acting as a forum for discussion around policy ideas and programmes that could be taken forward to tackle nature and climate emergency would be a benefit to officials, the government ministers and others. I think that we want to make this group a success. We want to make it an important forum where ideas can be discussed. I think that from that government can learn and individual MSPs can learn and stakeholders can learn from each other as well. Thank you. Thank you, Alexander. Any other questions? Thanks very much, convener. I am going to be slightly perlkel here in terms of the remit. Would there be items on your agenda going forward in terms of lowland restoration and also lowland deer management as well? That would be up for the members of the group to discuss that in terms of the early agenda topics. We have had some topics that have been discussed already. There is quite a lot of interest, not just in land use but in the marine environment as well, how blue carbon can restore marine environments but also lock up carbon, for example. I guess I would urge you to come to the meeting. If you want a discussion that talks about lowland land use as well as upland land use, then I am sure that that would be very welcome. However, there are clearly topics that apply to the whole of Scotland, and we are trying to get that broad, well-rounded conversation about what the solutions might be and what the challenges might be. Thank you, Collette. I think that it would be disappointing if a proposed CPG did not put out an invite to members of this committee to come along and influence it. Which is useful. I will try my best to sell it. Absolutely. This is not pertinent just to this particular application, but Mark, you are satisfied of the responsibilities that you would take on as conveners and MSPs, both with regard to the requirements of the CPG but also the notice periods. You are happy with that? Absolutely, and I have been a CPG convener in the past. I have resisted taking on too many CPGs as both a member and in any kind of continuing role, but I feel with this one that this is a genuine space where there is interest and enthusiasm for these topics. I am prepared and office is prepared to work with the Secretary to make this a success. Excellent. Thank you very much, and thank you for attending this morning. The committee will consider the application of its next agenda item, and the class will notify you into your course, but I wish you all the best for the rest of today. Thank you very much. I am just hoping you are just going to I would now like to welcome Michael Marra, who is the proposed convener of the second group that is coming before us today, which is Families Supporting Children's Learning. Good morning, Michael. Welcome to the committee. Would you like to explain the purposes and ideas behind your proposed CPG? With pleasure. Thanks for taking the time to listen this morning for the consideration of the committee. Essentially, the cross-party group on families supporting children's learning is to try and bring a focus and a highlight and a forum for discussion for parents, carers, families, parents organisations, MSPs and other interests of group educators and more to discuss and debate matters relating the links between families and the education system. I think that there are a couple of very apparent and current issues. There is a broad reform agenda being pursued by the Government at the moment around education, and it is vitally important, I think, that families' voices are heard within that agenda. Also, there are specific challenges that have been highlighted to the various members who are signatories to the group about the post-Covid environment, the challenges that families have had in accessing schools and education to play their active role in the education of their children, to discuss their education with formal educators in school and to better understand what their role is in the home. Making sure that, in that post-Covid environment and the impacts that we know are long lasting in terms of young people, we can have a positive influence in that area. I think that the pandemic did highlight some of the very specific and real and material role of parents, carers and guardians in education when the formal school settings were not allowed. There are some good experiences that came out of that in terms of the kind of learning that was going on in the home that we need at this moment to capture before they become part of folk memory rather than the possibility of policy. That is an absent moment. Thank you for that. It is a very full paragraph in respect of the application with regard to the proposed discussions, which is helpful. I thank you for that. I take you to the proposed secretariat of Connect. Would you like to put on the record who they are and what the coverage would be from them? Connect is a national organisation that represents parents groups across Scotland. We have had wide discussions with them and they are keen to provide the secretariat function for that group. We will reach out well beyond one individual group and they are well aware of that in terms of the need to engage as widely as possible, but I think that they would provide the right kind of services and focus to that. Essentially, they are an engagement group. There is a group of people who are involved in trying to bring people to the table. I think that we have a representative discussion there well suited to do that work. Are you confident that one of the absences in the application is individuals out with here who would be involved in it? Do you have confidence that Connect can give access for individuals who want to come along? I am presuming that the CPG would also welcome direct contact from individuals who might have experiences to share. I think that that would be absolutely critical to make sure that we have a bred voice. There are certainly voices who feel that they have not had enough representation in the education system and there are some who perhaps feel that they have very well represented in the education system. I think that it is really important that we capture good practice and make sure that we can spread that as widely as possible. I think that Connect are well placed to do that form of engagement work and that has formed a central part of the early discussions that we have had with the organisation about how we make sure that it is a representative voice and as widely as possible to draw on different individuals. That is very helpful. I am going to open up to the committee for questions and now Edward has a question that is all right. Edward, I will come to Bob first who has a question. Thank you for coming along to explain the purpose across part of the group and seek approval. I do have some potential concerns. I put on record the word potential but I do want to scrutinise it. I am always concerned when I see one non-MSP member of a cross-party group. I get that Connect Scotland are an umbrella organisation engaging but I am really keen to see individual groups directly involved in cross-party groups rather than all filtered through one body. I need to get to know Connect Scotland better because I make no judgment on whether a wonderful organisation but I need to tell them a little bit more about them and how they effectively make sure that they can reflect views of what is a massive range of groups and families across Scotland. I would say that their role in this is not to directly reflect those views. It would be to provide the secretary that function and try to bring other people to the table. They are not a rep they will have their own purpose as a group in terms of their own connect but the role that they would play as the secretary in this is very much to help to help to make the organisation of the CPG work but also to help us with broader engagement. The purpose of the organisation, if I can, is to undertake wide surveys and to engage. They have online discussion groups and communities around this area and they have a good reach into lots of parts of the country into a very large number of individuals. It is fair to say that some of those, the nature of their work in terms of talking about how parents and families can become involved in education, I think probably surfaces at times more problems, people who are frustrated around the need to engage in their young people's learning and perhaps find barriers. I think that what I have already said to the convener, I think that it is really important that we both try and draw positive examples as well as people who are finding frustrations. I think that that broader engagement is really critical. I think that part of the set-up is making sure that we can then get this cross-biting group up and running and make sure that we then engage formally with other external groups and stakeholders who have an interest in this agenda. I would say that part of the purpose of this, Mr Doris, is that this particular topic and the discussions that we have had has felt somewhat neglected perhaps in terms of sometimes parents' voices not finding a place within the education policy discussion, and that this is perhaps part of the issue that we need to raise that profile and bring a focus to it, rather than that. That is very helpful in a couple of other questions. First, I am wondering whether you would anticipate that, if we were to look at this cross-party group this time next year, we would see more than connect as known MSP members. Maybe you can address that along with my other question. You mentioned the opportunities for families to engage maybe lacking in the Parliament with cross-party groups, and I do know what obviously you mentioned the cross-party group of the children and young people that exist in the Parliament. So that would have a quick look at their most recent meeting, and I can see that they had youth-linked Scotland at their most recent meeting looking at their pandemic impact study, and at that meeting where families outside and parenting across Scotland. There is an example of parents' groups being able to directly engage with the cross-party group specifically on matters of Covid, which you mentioned is one of the subjects that you are interested in. So I am just wondering whether I do not see connect listed on that. I could be wrong, perhaps I have got that wrong. Have connect tried to maybe join that particular cross-party group to put their experience and network at play, because that would avoid duplication and could enhance that other cross-party group. I am just wondering if you have spoken at other cross-party groups, because it seems like a really obvious vehicle to raise all the issues that you have listed in your application forum. On your first question, I am certainly yes. I think that in the years time that we are looking at this, the involvement of other groups would be a signal of a success in demand in this area. I have to say that I suppose that I am trying to understand what the broader demand is for I would be keen if we could set this up and see whether there is the real demand that I believe there is and that other members have expressed to me that they have seen as well for a particular forum on those issues. So I think that testing that demand through this establishment would be the right thing. I do understand in terms of the other meetings and other forums that exist. I think that there is a frustration, I think, within parts of the communities that we all represent, that perhaps parental voices are not given as the high enough profile within the general discussion. I certainly think that as a member of the Education and Young People's Committee and yourself in the Parliament, Mr Doris, that that is something that we could perhaps reflect on more broadly. You have cited one specific example of a recent meeting. I have to say that I am not entirely clear as to how I can ask Connect whether that was a meeting that they were aware of and engaged in, but there is a broad, as I say, this is not just about Connect as a body or a forum for them. I think that this is a specific forum for those issues about the long-term policy trends, the engagement of families in education policy and the education of their young people in Scotland. I certainly understand that it is a broad, many education touches on many areas of policy and clearly there will be different forums for it. Given that a specific focus around that would be the right thing to do. I mean, I do not doubt the importance and the goodwill and the public interest in all of this, but we are going to get to a stage where there are more cross-party groups in the Arab backbench MSPs in this Parliament. There is a real onus on us to make sure that there is not duplication, quite frankly. I am concerned. I looked to Connect's page and I saw my own child's parent council was listed there. I am not sure if they have listed all the parent councils in Scotland or if individual parent councils have a voice. I am unsure what Connect's involvement has been with other cross-party groups. Having looked at their website, they are clearly a very worthwhile and important organisation, Mr Maras. I do not cast any doubt upon that, but I sometimes feel and this may be not directed at your proposed cross-party group. It is maybe using this public forum convener to signpost to other MSPs in the Parliament some issues that we have that perhaps we need to find out the demand is before we bring a cross-party group for approval. That is not specific to this cross-party group, Mr Maras, I should point out, but there is a real frustration amongst the committee. I will bring you back into reflecting those points, but I cannot deny the significant importance to making sure that parents, families and communities have a direct voice at this place and that Connect is clearly a really strong, valuable and worthwhile vehicle to making that happen. I absolutely agree with you that that is the intention of this cross-party group. There are tensions about how cross-party groups operate more generally across the Parliament. I wonder if you would reflect on that idea of gauging demand before bringing cross-party groups and maybe leasing more carefully with other cross-party groups before proposals are brought forward to this committee? Michael, just before you answer, what I would say is that you are obviously aware of the questions raised about CPGs and, in particular, the balance of work that MSPs have to undertake. So I am more than happy for you to give your views to this committee, but it will form part of our business going forward. But not to detract from Bob's question, it would be interesting about that outreach and the confidence that you have that there is an interest from individual parents, from groups of parents, out of this place. I would say that there is, and I have to say in conversations with other members. I think that and certainly the members on this committee would be happy to hear your views directly on it, but I think that the other members I have spoken to in their caseload in terms of people coming to them and addressing these issues with them. I think that there is a need in the demand, and I think that we would see it well used. I have to say within that that if it worked, we were to find, Mr Doris reflects on it, that in a year's time there are almost sets of tests for what this looks like. I would feel that if, in a year's time, if it was not a forum that was working successfully and it was felt that it was duplicating other work, I would happily recognise that. I suppose the very purpose of this is that there is an issue around families feeling that they do not have a voice and are represented in that broad discussion. Finding a place for that within the Parliament to test that ground would be the right thing to do. The very least to test it, Mr Doris and the convener, if I may, to see whether that is demanded. I have always been somebody who says that if something does not work, we should stop doing it, frankly. I do not think that we do that enough in public policy, so I am not intending to think that this would be something if it does not have success that the Parliament should persist with it for the long term, but I do think that it has. It will give an opportunity, particularly at this moment, for particular issues of concern and we can see what life it would have after that point. I want to ask has been eloquently put by the deputy convener, and I bet Michael, you wish you had got this up and running really early on when we were not worried that there were more cross-party groups than backbench MSPs, and I think we are into triple figures now, which causes us concern. I note, just as an observation, that a lot of your members are sitting on more than four cross-party groups, and I think four is probably pushing it if you are going to get full attention. My question is, I am actually taken by the subject area that you want to look at. What I would like to know a little bit is every local authority has a different approach slightly within that, and what I want to know is how you are going to rope in, if I was being peracule, the highlands into what is something that is going to be happening down in Edinburgh, and how you are going to include the Ornian Shetland, who might have a slightly different approach than the Western Arts. I think that there are very pertinent points. Actually, the variety of engagement mechanisms with different local authorities used for families and the extent to which they are. Of course, that practice varies from school to school, from institution to institution, nursery to nursery, to different places of different approaches, and how much the parents and guardians families of young people are involved in their education. There is a plethora of different wide variety of practice across the country. It is partly about understanding what works and what can best be achieved. I think that there is frustration that comes with perhaps those different practices. It is not to say that we should have a universal approach, but it is about understanding what does work and where success is. That does present a problem, but it is part of the focus of the committee to try to understand what works and how, to what extent we can encourage and recognise the primary role of the family as educators and where young people spend their time, far more time in the family home, learning far more in essence than they do in a formal setting, particularly in early years. The outreach point that Mr Mynton makes in terms of how to be engaged with more remote and rural communities, clearly those will have their own particular challenges in terms of involvement of young families in the young people education that are different to urban environments. I think that it would be absolutely right to address that within the group. We have to make sure that we have online meetings and access available, whether that be in a hybrid format as well as just in the Parliament, but giving it the impriture of the Parliament in terms of this formal setting where we can have these discussions is vital and important. I will leave it there except to say that I will be watching closely at the end of a year to see how you have managed to integrate. Michael, I am taken by the fact that you say that if you do not think that it is working, you will not continue it. That is honest and helpful, and it makes it easier for me to give it a go. We will come to that in the next bit. It is more an observation, Michael, and it is one that I do with every proposal that comes forward with CPGs. It is the actual gender balance on the members of the group. I note that there is only one female on there who is currently on Matleave. Have you put it out there to see whether there is a more gender balance representation on there? Definitely more work to do in that regard. The conversations that I have had with colleagues who expressed some of the similar concerns that Mr Mountain said that I am on so many CPGs already, but it is a really important topic. I am keen to hear and attend and see that that works. Certainly female colleagues who have spoken to a very much of that view, but perhaps have been less inclined to put their name in the first instance in terms of having signed up to many already. I think that there is work to do. It is certainly fair to say that the secretariat is female-led and that that would provide an initial certainly balance to the leadership of the group, but there is more work to do. I appreciate that. I will push contribution rather than leadership. I feel that I have been good-cop and bad-cop all my life. I would like to acknowledge that Megan Gallacher, who is listed as the new cross-party, who should be approved as co-convener of the children and young people's cross-party group. I am sure that it will lead to some strong partnership working. It may acknowledge that there indeed is a gap, but it was not for me to say that. It was for me to ask the question and for you to make the case that there is a gap, Mr Marra, but my question is that, given the significant changes that there is going to be to Scotland's education system, we will both sit on the education committee and the key role of parents and families, whether that changes to assessment, changes to senior phase within school, the SQA. Of course, it is important that parents' voices are heard, so what kind of priority would you give those on-going changes to the work of the cross-party group, should it be approved? Thanks for the reflection on the crossover between Megan Gallacher's position on how both recognise the absence. It is a point well-made, and I am sure that you have perhaps been in my own case. However, in terms of the gap, that is very much something that I was focusing on in the initial picture, I suppose, to put it that way. That reform agenda, which I have mentioned already, is absolutely critical. We should not underestimate the scale of the potential changes that the Government could bring to the table. We are involved in a national conversation, or just kicking off a national conversation stimulated by Ken Muir's report. It is vitally important that families are involved in that, because it is vitally important not just that they have their role as educators but that they are recognised within that process and supported, but that families have faith and buy-in to the education system and that they understand the role it has and the changes and what effect it will have and impact it will have on their family and their young people in years to come. The formal engagement in making sure that there is a space to do it—I have to say at times that it is perhaps something that, during this conversation, I am reflecting on more the absence of parental voices in some of the conversations that we have within the Parliament on those specific reform agendas. Where are we? The Education and Young People Committee in the Parliament commonly has, whether it be in rightly so, trade unionists, youth voice in terms of the youth Parliament, other learners and we do engagement on that basis, but we seldom have structured or outreach conversations with families specifically about how they are involved in their education and the impact that it will have. Even perhaps in reflecting how we ask the Parliament to better reflect those voices, I think that that would be critical. If we are going to make that reform agenda work, I think that doing that work is going to be absolutely central. I think that you have a comment or question. Yes, thank you. Mr Marra, I think that you do identify a gap in the process. There is no denying that. I think that the families that do engage at the moment with this process are those that maybe have youngsters who have a challenge or a need or a disability. They are much more likely to be much more highly engaged in ensuring that their needs for their child or their children are being addressed. The engagement is important, but there are already elements within families, guardians and parents that do not engage because they are hard to get and schools identify that as a problem already in making sure that they get the basics for all children to cover. I see where you are trying to take this and I think that it is very laudable to try to take it in that direction, but there is a concern that it would not necessarily capture all. How are you going to ensure that the engagement is meaningful and that the individuals, the parents, the guardians and the families really feel that their voices are being heard and are making a difference? I think that there is a very pertinent point in terms of the mix of parental voices and family voices within that in terms of what comes to prevalence in different areas and places. I think that Ms Alexander is right in putting some families with a particular strong set of needs who have to become particularly strong advocates for their young person within the education system, but I think that we also recognise that there are middle-class voices where there are parents who have a more prevalent voice within certain establishments because they are more adept advocates for themselves in the situation that their own families face. There are challenges in making sure that we have a real bred voice, but that is identified within the description of the work of the CPG. That is about trying to ensure that we have a bred and a representative bred rather than just people who have a specific and long-standing advocacy around particular issues. It is absolutely right that those voices are heard and we should applaud those parents and families for being the advocates for their young people, but making sure that we have that representative bred voice in our system is really the purpose. It is not easy if it is easy. It would already be being done, but I do believe that there are some places where it is done better than others and it would be good to see if we can learn as a parliament and as a policymaking community how that can be supported. Thank you for attending this morning. I do, as a final comment, which you heard with regard to the last proposed CPG, have a proposal to have co-conveners, but you understand the individual responsibility that an MSP will have as a convener to ensure that the group is compliant and that you respectfully and hurriedly and on time respond to any emails that this committee through its clerks should send you. Thank you very much for attending this morning and we will take the decision in the next agenda item. The clerks will notify you in due course, but thank you for coming in today, Michael. Thank you. We will now move to agenda item three, which is to consider whether to accord recognition to the proposed cross-party groups on nature and climate and family supporting children's learning. Before formally putting that, would anyone like to make any comments with regard to the proposed CPG on nature and climate? It's not for me to object to any particular cross-party group, but I would like to echo convener what you've said and I think all of us feel is there are a huge amount of cross-party groups. The one on nature to me actually is doubling down on what's being done by other groups. Doesn't mean it shouldn't happen, but I think that the committee will have an obligation at the end of the first full year to look at all these committee groups, to see cross-party groups, to see whether they're actually working properly and achieving their aims, because I'm sorry, convener, I cannot see how MSPs in this Parliament, and there are notably ones who are, I wouldn't say committee hoppers, but are committee members, cross-party committee members or group members who must be snowed under. In fairness, I do for and I am snowed under, so I just have that concern. I don't want to vote against it, I think if they'd come in in the first tranche, they probably would have got an easier ride. Unfortunate for them, it's in the last tranche, but I do think we need really to do some work in this committee and I know you acknowledge this on how they're all working, because I fear for them. I'm very grateful for that. Are there any comments about that specific proposed CPG before I had formally put it to the... Well, are we in agreement to a called recognition to the proposed cross-party group on nature and climate? Yes. Excellent. I'd now like to invite comments from members with regard to the proposed CPG on family supporting children and learning. I do think that there's a genuine gap within the Parliament in relation to this area and cross-party groups. I think that there's a strong case to be made. I felt a little bit guilty, making those comments to Mr Marra, but I suppose the point I was trying to make is that we need to make sure that we scrutinise each and every cross-party group that comes before us very carefully, and Mr Marra did amply well in demonstrating that need, just because you ask certain questions and I say that it doesn't mean that you don't support the intention of the cross-party group, but it's maybe, and it's but unfortunate for the witnesses that came today to propose the cross-party groups, that it's maybe again just reflecting that this Parliament and previous incarnations of this committee have taken a permissive view to cross-party groups. If you forum them, we shall grant them, and they shall happen irrespective of whether there's enough MSPs to make them meaningful. That's not a reflection on the two witnesses that we heard from today, whom I'm sure we'll do a sterling job with those cross-party groups. Just to say it, I do see a gap with Covid and with the significant education reforms that there's a real service to the Parliament and the cross-party group. I may even join it myself, but it's important that whoever comes to this committee to propose a cross-party group will scrutinise it pretty carefully. I would agree that Mr Marra has identified a gap in the system, but I have some reservations as to how successful it could be. We've heard about how different local authorities do different things and how some individuals within that processor are much more aligned to lobbying and making things happen. I acknowledge that. I think that it's courageous to try and do this, but I think that it would be advantageous to see what happens after its first year to see whether it has actually made the impact that it's intended to do so, or if it ends up being a slightly geographical impact on certain areas that may be more aligned to doing something rather than covering the whole area. However, I do think that there is merit in giving it the opportunity at this stage to go forward, but as I say, its future will depend on its success. That's very helpful. Any other comments? In fact, just before I put it, I think that what you raised, Bob, is very important. I think that the people who take an interest in this committee, who I know are wide and varied, will be very aware of our growing concern. I think that we articulated it very early on, and perhaps sometimes protecting MSPs even from themselves, because this is a difficult and challenging job. However, there is an important role of CPGs as giving access to this Parliament and a voice into indeed government and something that we will be returning to in the near future when we look at this once a full year has passed from CPG registrations. I think that comments that you make, Alexander, about looking at CPGs after a year to say, wave, you've got to, and indeed your comments about reaching groups that otherwise are sometimes very hard to reach. It was quite refreshing for Michael to commit that, if nothing has happened, it will wind it up. That's the first time I've heard that in an application, but it gives it a bit of confidence. Are we happy to accord recognition to the proposed CPG? Yes, I'm grateful for that. Just before we move into private session, this is the last public committee meeting where the committee has been supported by Joanna Hardy, Joe Hardy, who has been a valiant stalwart behind the scenes for just over seven years, three sessions. I think, certainly from my huge experience of chatting to her, if you want to have an expert on the code of standards, you can go no better than to find Joe. So can I thank you for all of your efforts, particularly since I became convener because I found it enlightening, helpful, and rightly at times you place the taxing questions to be considered. But on behalf of previous committees and this committee, can I thank you very much for all your huge work supporting it? So thank you. I will now move this meeting into private.