 Okay, we have started the recording. This meeting is now being recorded. And this is the net zero. Subcommittee for the school building committee. Here in Amherst. And I'm the, the chair of the subcommittee. I'm Jonathan salad. I'm just going to call on the other members of the committee. I'm going to call on the order. I see them on the screen, which for me is a Kathy. Yes. And Rupert. Yes, I hear you a lot in clear. And so with that, I would like to bring up today's agenda. Pop up here. Somehow it's. There it is. I don't know. I've neglected. To introduce the NISCO team, but which is the next kind of. Point on our agenda, but I will do that momentarily. I'm just going to quickly walk through. So folks have a overall sense of what's going to happen today. So in a moment, I'll have Donna introduce her team. They will walk us through their presentation. Then we'll have some discussion. And what I would like to do is kind of open up the, the public comment at that. Item number three. The discussion point so that, that I'm sure our audience. We'll have some comment on what they've heard today. And then after that, we'll close that, that discussion and, and move on to the final. Agenda, which would item, which will really be when we'll meet again. And with that, I will. Let Donna have the floor. But she's. Thank you. Yeah, I know I've got three screens and the most can't find itself sometimes. So good morning, everyone. Thank you. We'll just go ahead and introduce us. We'll introduce us. We have. Dennis go. Thornton Thomas set it with us who's our sustainable engineers and consultant and Simone. Oh, who will introduce himself. He's with the AB. And our mechanical engineer. So with that, Donna, Dennis go Rick. Okay. And we have Vivian. Vivian low. Good morning. Tim. Good morning. Tim Cooper. Collin. I'm calling. And then with Thornton Thomas said, are we a van she. Yep. I'm she. And we have Senate. I started with TT. Oh, sorry. You guys go by TT. Sorry. And that's okay. That's okay. And, and then we have Simone. I'm a mechanical engineer. And that wraps up our team. So I think at this point we probably switch the screen share. Yeah. Just trying to take it down. Okay. And if we are ready, I'm just going to roll right into it. Go for it. Oh, there's Ben. Does everybody see my screen? Yep. Yeah. So we're just going to start with a slide you've seen before that breaks down the different facets of what are going to get going. We're going to talk a little bit more in detail about the different components and how they contribute to that target. And what that target is and how that target is a little bit. Fluid, depending on some of the other decisions that we make in terms of the project going forward. But with that as an introduction. I'm just going to turn it over. To move through with the presentation. So we want to just kind of walk you through some of the UI targets and potential conservation strategies that you will be considering as we are developing the design. As you can imagine, the first and foremost step is for us to set a target that we have been talking about 25 years ago. I may have said this earlier, but EUI stands for energy use intensity, which is basically energy use, used in a year normalized over the square footage of the building. So 25 UI is what we have been differing. And this is this aligns with the Boston Planning and Development Agency's net zero. So we're going to talk a little bit more about the Boston Planning and Development Agency's net zero energy targets as well. And we also want to acknowledge that in our last caller meeting, we talked about why don't we push it down even further. And there is ASHRAE advanced energy design guidelines, which talks about even lower than 25 EUI for schools. But that said, there are some assumptions made in that guidelines with user behavior. And we don't want to start there, but we want to have like continued conversations on user behavior on the project. As a design team, we are obviously going to be focusing on delivering a building that is going to be the most efficient with other parameters considered like costs and life cycle cost analysis, maintenance, and those kind of issues that we'll talk about. What you see in the bottom left chart is from that advanced energy design guideline, what they are targeting for our climate zone, which is 5A is 5.5 UI for just heating and cooling. And the right side is a project that we are working on, which is going for zero net energy in the same climate zones and MSBA project. As you can see, we are at 5.3. So we are really pushing it down where we need the conversations need to happen is in that the bottom one, which is the big part of that bar chart, which is user behavior about almost a third of the energy use, which requires engagement of the occupants, the maintenance staff. And this is a paddle effort. We can continue to talk about it. But for the purposes of this discussion, we will start with some of the design elements that we are looking at, which would be the next slide, Tim, if you can move there. So as Tim has mentioned, we're obviously working with the flu target, but 25 is our goal, and we will be trying to push lower and more efficient. But what you see here are the assumptions or the strategies that we have used in one of the ZNE school. Again, we are not stuck to these measures. Of course, if we push in one area, we have to pull another area. So there is some trade-off that needs to happen. But some of the things that I'd like to highlight here is operational hours. Obviously, the more the building is used, the more energy it's going to use, the less you use, the less energy it's going to use. So we want to be cognizant of that. That's a huge piece. We will continue to have the discussion with you and develop our energy models so that we are giving you the right information. And then we have, right from the get-go, we are looking at the massing and optimizing the building orientation. So we are harvesting daylight into the space so that we don't use artificial lighting when it's not needed. And at the same time, gather radiation when it's needed and at the same time shade it when it's not needed. So those are the initial studies that we will be conducting, along with talking about the operational hours we are talking about. Low infiltration. This is one thing also we would like to really focus on during the design and construction as well. Because once this is done, once the envelope is closed in, it's hard to fix it or it's more challenging. So we want to do it right the first time. And we can talk about that in more detail as well. And envelope installation. So this is where we are seeing most of our Z&E schools being around. Again, as I mentioned, this is a trade-off studies. If you have some limitation in one area, we will have to make up for that in some other area. Same thing with the window-to-wall ratio. It's a pretty optimized window-to-wall ratio where we have a good balance of daylight and the heat losses are minimized. Heat gains are optimized as well for heating conditions. And then we have high-performance double-pane windows and they're thermally broken. We'll get into more of that with considering different lasing types and things of that nature, maybe even triple-pane, but that has cost implications as well. So we'll look at it holistically. Lighting systems. Then whatever lighting loads we need after harvesting daylight, we want to be in the LED world and it's a base of design now in pretty much most of the standard schools. Although we are listing it as a high-efficient system, it is what most of the schools are doing, even if they're not going for net zero. And this is really bringing the lighting levels down. I mean, we are talking about five EUI, as we've seen in the previous chart. And in this case, we are using geothermal, decoupled ventilation system and high-efficiency energy recovery wheels. Again, geothermal is not the silver bullet here. We will evaluate the heat pump system, the VRS system, which is air source. It could be water source as well. But as I mentioned, if you are taking away in one place, we have to add another place. But this way, we're not stuck to these parameters that we are looking at on the screen. Low-floor toilet fixtures, these have not as much impact on the overall EUI, but every BTU saved is like every BTU gained for us. So we want to make sure we are putting our attention on everything possible in the building. And exterior lighting is going to be LED. That is, again, a standard approach nowadays. So these are... So yeah, Vamps, yeah, go ahead. I just want to pause after we wrap up the slide to have a conversation about it. Yeah. So this is not a comprehensive list of things that we'll be looking at it. This is mainly to show the Lord and the fruits and where we will have most impact on a couple of them, which we want to just highlight. So with all that, you know, there are aspects in this that we do automatically with all of our projects, right? The envelope, low infiltration, the double pane windows, LEDs, low-flow toilet fixtures, like some of those are givens and those we don't necessarily need to focus on. The envelope insulation, you know, there's a diminishing return. The more you put in doesn't necessarily mean you're going to gain more. So, you know, the R40 for roof and R25 for walls is kind of the sweet spot. But beyond that, I think, you know, as Vamps she identified, the operational hours are key. And that has a huge impact on the use of the building, right? Not only for user behavior, but it also has impacts on the system and everything else that goes into it. And we know that the school is going to be a huge community resource. So we really, I've circulated an hours chart yesterday to understand what the anticipated usage will be from a school perspective. So we understand that, you know, summer, if you have summer school, this is going to be probably used. If you do have a summer school or if you have summer programs for some of your special ed programs, that this will obviously be the preferred school to use. We would imagine. So all of this is really going to play into it. And that's why, you know, when these white papers come out and say, no, you really want to be a 25 EUI. Okay. But these are the parameters more or less that you need to achieve. And sometimes it just isn't possible. So again, it's sort of push and pull the other component. And we've been able to achieve a window to wall ratio of 22 to 24%. But hearing day lighting is important to you. There's a huge impact to that. And then from a cost perspective, double pane windows, if, you know, we feel that we need more windows. Well, how are you going to achieve that? Triple pane. But recognizing cost is really important to the community. We need to understand those trade-offs and implications. So, you know, we always look at things holistically. You can't talk about things in a vacuum. Even even the HVAC system, as Vam, she alluded to, you know, geothermal has the highest first cost, but it's the most efficient. It's the most consistent, most efficient that we'll be able to achieve a lower or a 25 UI provided everything else is stated in there. If we go to a VRF system, it utilizes more energy. So what's your trade off? So this is our goal. And we have to work collectively to make sure that first, the building is designed for its true intent, which is a school and a community use facility. And then we can talk about the other stuff, right? And how can we achieve that? We could still possibly, you know, we can still achieve net zero without hitting a 25 UI. So, you know, we understand this is a target and we'll do everything we possibly can. Understanding there are going to be some trade-offs and maybe some concessions that we're going to have to make, but that still doesn't mean that we won't hit a net zero. So I, we're not saying you need 25 to get to net zero. And then the other thing that's really important is that we really don't want to understate the usage of the building because it's our understanding the bylaw says after a full year of use, you need to verify this. So we don't want to say, oh, you know, the building is open from eight to four PM and it's not used in the weekends and it's barely used in the summer, whatever, because you have to verify it. So we want to be as honest and upfront as possible to make sure that not only does it look good before we build the building, but the actual usage is as accurate as we possibly can. So I think that's one of the things that's been done. If I could just make a comment about that. Yeah. And I would encourage you to follow up with. Mike Morris to get more, you know, kind of definitive information, but certainly pre COVID. Our schools have been community resources there. There's each one of the elementary schools, at least at that time, and maybe Ben, Ben probably knows more than I maybe I should stop talking, but certainly there were before school and after school programs that passed this, this time and I'll stop talking and let Ben chime in. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what I was going to kind of speak to is that eight to four is absolutely not realistic. So we have after school programs and all of the elementary schools till at least 530, I think one of them gets out at six. We also have custodians in the building until 11 PM every night. And then like right now we have basketball. I think there's other sports that we also rent out our facilities is that's so that kind of skews the time. And then also the like the summer hours. I'm just thinking from our department, even without summer school, we have eight hour shifts of custodians working throughout the entire summer. And I think. Actually, no, it's reasonable to add that there are like also summer camps that use the facilities. So, and some of these may not be, they use the whole facility, but I think we want to think about, because often it'll be the large volume spaces, the gyms, the cafeterias, which would probably have somewhat separate systems anyways, but, but identifying those. And then I have a memory and it may just be a bad memory. But before COVID, I thought there were, there were times where schools would actually be open a little earlier for, you know, kids to get breakfast and things like that. I don't remember what time that started, but it was certainly before eight. Yeah, yeah. We're kind of still on that, that program with the free breakfast and lunch and all. So, but yeah. Yeah. So this just we're putting out the time of eight AM, but we understand that the school has to be warmed up earlier than that. Right. So, so, you know, it would turn on at six and maybe now it needs to turn on at five or whatever, but we 100% agree. And that's why to maybe go back to the previous slide. You know, again, the chart on the right, I don't know if you can see that, but in order to achieve a 5.5 from the ASHRAE guidelines or, or even how we're going to achieve it overall, here are the percentages. So we 100% agree. This is a huge investment for the community. It should be used. Custodian use is a little different in that, you know, we can do different things for the custodians such as we can have sensors as they go through the hallways, you know, this, the lights will come on and then they'll go off or whatever. And we can reduce the amount of airflow needed just for the custodians to be in the building and stuff. But that still doesn't negate the fact that. There are going to be people in it, right? So, so 100% we, and that's why this is. In theory, it looks great. And in reality, this is a huge conversation to have. So we appreciate it and we're recognizing it. We, we, that's why we're bringing this up. And we want to, you know, collect all of this data. And we also want to project for when this new building. Is there, it's ideally going to be used more than it is now, even though it is a full used community asset. So we want to, you know, make sure that we get the best data possible and make the best projections possible for the use going forward. Yeah. And some of the other considerations would be with the technology is going to be in the building. And that, that could drive some of the usage, not as much as probably the energy, but that, that's an important consideration. And a lot of the equipment, technology equipment, et cetera is becoming more and more efficient, but that's a consideration. The other thing is like you said, Ben, breakfast and lunch, while the kitchen consumes a lot of energy. So, and so, you know, there's just all of these variables that we appreciate people trying to get in front of this, but the reality is these are community resources. And here are going to be the trade-offs that we have to talk about. So we'll assemble. We've already started the conversation. We'll be assembling the hours. I think we'll share it with you all, but I think we want to be on the conservative side of all of that, as opposed to saying, Nope, you can't use the bill. And we're shutting off the lights and turning off the system at 6pm. Like we need to protect and have a buffer, especially because you need to measure this after the school is in use for a year. And this is a good segue to our next slide that shows the relative impact on EUI for each of the factors that we're discussing, operational hours is obviously huge. And that's the second of all the largest is geothermal. There's VRF, but that is your heating and cooling load, which is directly related to operational hours. But I'm going to let bombs, you talk a little bit more about this slide. Well, I just, Tim, can you just go back to what I said, did you have, did you guys have any other comments about some of the other. Kind of categories that we've outlined as far as. How to achieve a couple of things that you might be good if for the, for folks, you know, we haven't gone through the building process before to understand, you know, what building massing means is a practical item. And this one's new to me. I don't quite know that I know what the coupled ventilation is. Absolutely. Building massing in its simplest terms is the shape of the building. So there are a lot of things that are going to contribute to that. What we find to be. Educationally appropriate in terms of layout, the number of things that are going to contribute to that. And so as the building gets more compact, you have less skin. And the skin is where you gain and lose your heat. So it has an effect on the energy performance. So that's why that's important. I'm sorry. And the orientation of the building as well. We have a little, yeah, and I just want to, as we get into that, all of these factors apply both to a renovation edition and a new building. We have a little less control with orientation on a renovation edition, because obviously we'd be using that. But orientation means getting an optimal. Relationship to have a son is hitting the building for both. Getting a cooling and glare in the comfort of occupants. Classroom windows that face north and south are preferred. We're facing windows. There's no direct sunlight typically. So there's no glare and south facing. When the light is coming in the sun is higher in the sky. So the light isn't penetrating further into the room and creating glare situations on either desktops. We're teaching spaces. And then decoupled ventilation, which you asked about Jonathan means. Semmerating or funnel, if I'm sure you want to get into it. Sure. I was, I thought you were handing over to me. Yeah. Decoupled ventilation is basically separating the ventilation needs and sensible heating and cooling. You know, the building has two types of loads. One is fresh air. We need to bring the fresh air. When the people are inside and then we need air in the air. And then we need air in the air. When the people are inside and then we need air to either heat or cool. So this decoupled ventilation strategy helps us to control the airflow much better. So when there are no people, you can literally shut down all the air needed for people. So then all you need is the air for actually just heating or cooling, whatever you need at that point. There are a significant amount of savings with this kind of control strategies and a lot of high performance schools right now are adopting this technology. And it works really great with, you know, the heat pump systems that we are looking at, whether it's geothermal or VRF. So that is what decoupled ventilation. So with that, we have reached out. I don't know if everyone has seen it, but we do with that comes sophistication of the systems. And what we want to do is meet with the school department and if there are other folks within the town that need, we need to talk about these systems, right? There are implications to them. So two, two parts. One is the sophistication of it, the ease of use, the energy efficiency to them and the other components costs. So you're going to have, you know, for some of these systems, you're going to have a higher first cost. And in the end, as you can see, you know, you will receive the benefit of that going forward. And we'll get into the life cycle cost analysis, but we want to make sure that everyone understands that. You know, these are all assumptions. And then we really want to make sure that the system can be supported by your staff. And. And we can afford it. Okay. Is there any other specific items that we just want to elaborate on this slide before we move on? See any hands. And here is where I was going to hand it off to palm tree, but a simple diagram of the impact of all of those factors, both in terms of energy use and also cost is not the same. So some of the items that we're going to focus a little bit more are, you know, some of the items that we're going to be talking about. And I think that's one of the things that we're going to be talking about. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to say, like, you know, this is sort of like a sensitivity test to, you know, each of these parameters can impact the energy use intensity numbers. Some do more than the others. And, but these are some of the items that you may come across when it comes to building design that people talk about. And as Donna mentioned earlier, you know, there's diminishing returns, but also the amount of energy savings, you'll not see a huge are huge. And same, same way for other items that you see building orientation, it can impact about half to one EUI building mass about the same infiltration has a little bit more impact. So what this diagram basically tells us is that where should we put our energy into in discussions? If we have to dedicate one full meeting, a half day meeting, it would be on geothermal versus we are a system on the system side and operational hours. And then we're not saying the other things are less important. As I mentioned, like every BTU saved is what we are looking for. But it's how we prioritize these strategies as we move forward with the design development. Anything else to add, Donna or Tim on this one? Then. Yeah, just added a discussion of priorities. How we're going to weigh some of these factors against each other's because they all have. Cost and they all have. Impact in terms of meeting. And her school. So, I mean, I'm sure these are all important to. The project, but the relative importance we have to discuss and figure out and meeting all the goals. Obviously it's going to be. That's your capable by the bylaw and just the stated desire of the project. Construction costs and operating costs. You know, specifically in terms of geothermal and some of the other systems. You know, it can contribute to efficiencies, but there is the reality of costs that we have to figure out where our priorities lie. Carbon emissions are obviously important. And it is an all electric building, which contributes greatly to reducing carbon emissions. But, you know, that's site energy. I mean, if we're considering source energy, the more energy we use, there's still carbon. So it's just something that's going to help. In body carbon relates to whether or not we're renovating and the selection of materials that we use in a new or renovated building. And then as we put all of these. Pieces together. You know, at the end of the day, this is a building. This is a place where. People will spend their time and occupy. So some of the. Systems we're talking about. For an example, there's PV over the parking lot or on the roof and how that gets integrated into the site and how the site is used. There's just one of the many considerations that we're going to have to. Consider as we move forward. And then Donna touched on the complexity of the system. So earlier, rather than later, we want to meet with Rupert and Ben to get their input on what. We are designing that can be maintained and used. But if so, quick on that, on that, on that topic, Rupert has his hand up. Go ahead. Oh, I just wanted to comment on the. The priority regarding infiltration. In terms of infiltration and exfiltration at some point, it would probably be good to hear. From folks about the consequences of those strategies in terms of openable windows. How that affects the EUI. What strategies there are to allow that. If it is even allowable with this EUI target. Thank you. The building will have operable windows. I mean, if it's a. Contributing factor to user comfort. It's actually. You get a lead point. There certainly is infiltration at operable windows that will contribute to heat loss. Humanity in the building and energies. But. We designed the envelope as a whole. And all of the solid wall between the windows. We like to make it. Well, we do make it as tight as possible. So I mean, it's an overall consideration. So it's just another. Aspect that you have to balance between. You know, getting a high performing. Building and. Providing a building that is. Comfortable. For the humans that are living in it. And that are going to school and educate. I was going to just add to Rupert to your question as. It's a whole building infiltration we are looking at. Not necessarily when the. Operable windows are open. I mean. We are looking at intersection of wall and. The roof or the floor. Or there are utility chases. You know, all these opaque areas, which you wouldn't think. You know, we've noticed like, you know, a lot of these areas in the building envelope. Not visible quite, but they're still. Letting the air out or in. Depending on whether you're possibly pressure or negative pressurized on which, which time of the year. So the idea behind infiltration is. Before everything is closed up. Do we have a right. In the future. In the future. In the future. In the future. To get out of this concentration is before everything is closed up. Do we have a right air barrier? And we are attaining a certain level of. You know, it tightness in the building so that you're not using. Loosing all these condition air to the window to the outdoors. So the. More we control that. The more efficient the buildings to get. If I could add. This is. is detailing the area of barriers so that it's tight, but it's also workmanship and observation while it's going on, because a lot of infrared scans can show peaks that get buried that are really a workmanship of you in the field. So the simpler you can detail it, the easier it will be in the field to get it tight. Yes, that's awesome. I think a really tight envelope makes it much easier to control your energy costs. I just wanna point out that with the current emphasis on as much ventilation and pressure as possible are energy costs in our current operations of skyrocketing. And so maybe this is really a discussion for how an occupant behave here rather than the envelope. And I suspect, Rupert, there are some options that are probably available in new systems that our existing buildings simply don't have. I don't think any of our systems have heat recovery in the ventilation portion probably. Yeah, I mean, to the point of ventilation too, we are also noticing with the whole COVID situation more and more requests coming for increasing the ventilation so that there are more filtered air coming into space. So that's another thing to keep in mind how it impacts our energy performance because obviously the more pressure you bring into the space, you have to dehumidify it, condition it and filter it. So that has some energy impact. So we are already looking at it because we have never come across that situation obviously before, but in the past two years we have seen that come again and again on our projects. Great. Before we go to priorities, yeah, I was just gonna also add that the priorities we have here and there are synergies between all these items that are listed on the screen. Obviously we're not gonna look at each of them like in silo, but whatever we are doing in one part definitely impacts on the other metric that we are looking at. For example, we know the direct relationship with net zero capable strategies and their impact on the construction costs, but also it has operating costs, implications, carbon emissions and whether we use existing building versus new building that has embodied carbon, but what if you use existing building? There is some constraints we have to work with in terms of upgrading the envelope so it meets that thermal comfort or a thermal performance criteria. So we will be looking at it in a more integrated fashion all these priorities. So the next slide. So these are the next steps that we are be working right away and trying to get whatever we talked about right now to establish specific criteria, optimized design solutions for the building design. Again, in conjunction with discussions that we talked about occupants or the usage schedules and which we will seek your feedback obviously as we keep moving forward, but in terms of our analysis and studies we'll be looking at various sites. I think that Tim is Tim and Don are gonna talk about shortly here. Massing comparison that Tim has mentioned, what it is on the recommendations, again optimizing what is the insulation in the walls versus roof, what type of window systems, what is the glazing to wall ratio or the window to wall ratio and then different HVAC system studies. Again, one thing I would like to highlight here is lifecycle cost analysis which we see that should be integral to what we're doing because whatever decisions we are making will have financial impact. So we wanna give you a whole picture, okay, if you do this one this is what it means ultimately for the billing cost or the pricing. Daylighting again, to reiterate, daylighting again would be an integral part of our analysis and finding that balance point between where we get the good amount of daylight but at the same time not losing heat to the outdoors by having larger windows than needed. So the goal is for us to have an established base of design for the envelope and HVAC systems which is in the next three months I believe. Here is a graphic representation of the schedule over the next few modules of the, so we're gonna issue the PDP in about a month and at that point we'll have options in terms of program, well, there's one program but in terms of sites identified and all of the background information gathered and then we'll be moving into PSR where we'll have to select a site. We will be narrowing down massing options. At when we issue the PDP there will be order of magnitude costs associated with each option in which we will then develop into lifecycle costs for each option with various systems early in PSR and then that will be developed as we get into schematic design. So this basically is just showing you a general sequence of how we're going to narrowing out some of the numbers that we need to get in terms of the cost of relative options and relative systems that will allow us to make some informed decisions. As Banshee mentioned, there will be a basis of design that will be a general description of the entire project at PSR but it will continue to be designed in SD in schematic design and then the dashed line going beyond schematic design for systems design and envelope indicates that they will be tweaked through DD and basically through the entire project but this is just where some of the decision points are going forward. Tim, if I could just add to that all of these, the pricing, I guess I should almost call it pricing or order of magnitude at PDP and then also at PSR, those are not your final costs of the project with MSBA. However, we wanna be as accurate as we can with the little information we have because once a number is out there, the number is out there. And so, we will have those conversations with you all and of course the building committee to develop a strategy as we look at the options and of course look at the mechanical systems, geothermal VRF and then if it's geothermal, the actual system, the distribution system for the building. So, we don't wanna radically stray from what we're presenting at PSR because we don't wanna to provide the community with an order of magnitude cost and then later change it. So again, we'll be having these conversations with the school building committee on the best approach is how we provide this information. And everyone thinks that it should be, it is fluid, but we really want to obtain as much information as possible as soon as possible, but it is fluid and it is a little linear. You have to make decisions which impact other decisions. So, it's a balancing act. But I think just to dovetail on that, our goal for the next meeting, Tim, do you wanna? So, for our next meeting, which we anticipate to be in about a month, we would take the preliminary pricing that we have the PDP and develop that with systems so that early in PSR we could have an evaluation and a comparison of relative costs for each option with each system so that we can make some informed decisions about one, the overall price and what we can include in the project and to which option is appropriate in terms of citing system and all the other components to go into putting that number. I see Kathy has a hand up before we leave this slide. Yeah, Tim, you mentioned a next meeting about a month from now is, I'm looking for a more specific date, mainly on this preliminary design program would this group meet before that is finalized and sent in or would you, I know you're doing the cost estimating now and over the next few weeks. So, we're at February 10th. So, I'm not looking for a specific date but just before or after we're targeting around March 15th, I think Donna, for that submission. Is that correct? Yeah, the submission is so, yes, sorry, I don't mean to hesitate. The submission to MSBA is, it's a self-imposed date of March 15th. That's our goal. With that said, we need to have the numbers before that, we are going before the community, I believe, no, we're going before the school committee on the eighth community on the ninth, which means all of that needs to be wrapped up by that. And so the timing's really tight to be able to come back to this group prior to that to be having that conversation. So, again, we need to establish a approach to how we want to do order of magnitude when we present the PDP numbers. And there might be a range of numbers because every decision has a different implication to the cost. So, we need the kind of the order of magnitude cost from the cost estimate, and that will be coming literally, it's gonna be hot off the press because they need a couple of weeks to do that, right? So, I'm not trying to be a basic viewer, but the answer's probably no. No, you were completely clear. Okay. Because it helps to, we should focus big questions now because that will influence what you're doing before we see you again. Yeah, thank you. I'll let Mark go next, but I just wanna make sure I heard something correct, which is that we're gonna be looking at cost ranges during the PDP process, but also during the PSR process. And the one that's going to have the more detailed information on building systems, I thought I heard would be associated with the PSR process. Yes. And so for this committee, it's probably we're able to kind of get into it and pick it apart a bit more at that stage. Correct, correct. And as well, Jonathan, there's an opportunity to refine all of this during schematic design because we are not locked into a cost with the MSBA until schematic design, although we tried to be as close to the actual number that we're gonna agree to with MSBA at PSR. And there may be some extenuating circumstances that may impact or shift the overall cost of the project, but once a number is out there, we recognize that a big shift in the number is not where we wanna be. So yeah, and again, as Vamshi was saying and Tim, there's just gonna be push and pull as all of the decisions that are being made for all the various reasons to arrive at all of your priorities. Margaret, hope you're muted. I just, yeah, I wanted to provide a little context for estimate, especially for folks who are maybe listening in and sort of dipping in and out of this. So the way to think about the PDP estimate, in my opinion, and Dennis can chime in and tell me if they disagree is that it's sort of, it's trying to sort of pin down a likely range, but it's really a comparison. The purpose of it in the process is to tell the MSBA what the options are that are gonna be considered. And the reason to provide a relative cost is to at that level help the community understand how they might compare in terms of cost. So the way it's accomplished is by applying the same set of assumptions about the set of them and totally agreed with what Dennis's team is saying about how the assumptions need to be super conservative because there's such a small amount of information. So I just wanna make sure for folks listening when they hear estimate, it's really to give a comparative sense of what these options might look like in terms of cost. And with the understanding that there's actually very little drawn at this point. So that's my screen. Vivian? Yeah, I've been just to add to that. So because we don't have a design per se yet, but for comparative purposes, a lot of times these prices are based on dollars per square foot, but what we do want to iterate is that we will pull out costs separately for say, PV systems as well as geothermal so that you could see within each given option what those considerations are. The intent is really to provide as much information for you all to make the best decisions at each phase. I think we could probably keep moving forward. We're almost at the one hour mark. So I wanna make sure that we're a sufficient time to kind of open this up to a broader discussion. In terms of the presentation, that is it. I mean, we did include a couple site plans of options, but they haven't been developed and they were really just to provide context if the discussion went that way. I can stop sharing and we can open it up to discussion. Yeah, I do just wanna say this is a great graphic Dennis got teamed for what it is to help explain the process. So thank you. So Kathy, I'm gonna rely someone on you and your ability to see who's got hands raised and to bring them in and I guess I should probably ask quickly as Kathy looking at that Rupert and Ben, do you have any other questions, comments at this stage before we open it up to the public? Okay, so if people in the public will, so we'll go to Rupert first and then if people in public raise their hand, I will bring you in one by one while we're taking Rupert's question. Mostly it's just a comment. I wanted to be a little bit more explicit about the massing concept and just point out that a cube would be way more efficient than a long flat rectangle or a some other geometrically regular figure like a GDC dome would be way more efficient than a long single story thing. I just want that to be explicit. Bruce, I think you're the first one. Mute, unmute, so there we go. First of all, this is a very confidence building conversation. I'm continued to be impressed with the way the committee is absorbing this and dealing with it and also with the team, the way they're presenting it and gradually bringing us forward. I know it's very, very early. I've got all sorts of questions, but I'll concentrate on three and there'll be the first has to do with the low infiltration strategy or area. I just wanted to know whether this is the, this building will be pressure, air tightness tested. I mean, this is a big building. I know we've typically tested smaller buildings routinely on larger buildings, we partition that sometimes, but as technology has improved, I've heard of larger and larger buildings being done and I just wanted to know whether it was the intention of the team to do one or more air tightness tests on the building for diagnostic purposes because I heard Rick say, you know, this is a very, well, I know these envelopes can leak in all sorts of ways. And when I was trying years ago to get design teams and construction teams to pay attention to this, the mantra was, you know, it's about doing a hundred or in this case a thousand things. Well, any one of which doesn't matter a damn. It's like a bunch of sticks. You can break any one stick. It's just totally immaterial, but the aggregate is all important. So it was quite difficult. And one of the ways we did this was to blow door test these buildings even with smoke testing and so forth. So people could see the leaks. It got people's attention. It really built an appreciation of the value of air tightness and how you get it. So first question, I've got three. So I hope I could ask them and get an answer. Do you want me to ask them all three at once? What do you want me to stop? Just if you could ask them quickly, Bruce. Yes, okay. So the question, the first question then is, do you intend to test and if so, what is your intended ACH change at 50 pascals? Or maybe you do it at 75, but I guess it's 50. So what is that test standard that you would ideally aim for? Second is my sense of decoupling the ventilation. I didn't hear it particularly, but my sense is that you've got separate ducting systems that the ventilation ducting is independent of the heating and cooling ducting. And I love that because the amount of ventilation volume is an order of magnitude, at least smaller than the heating and cooling ducting. And so if you have an independent ventilation ducting, you've got, you're delivering the ventilation air, the fresh air exactly where you're not putting it into an oversized duct so it diminishes and you don't really know where it's going. So I'd like to confirm that decoupled ventilation means that there are two sets of ducts to achieve it. And thirdly, COVID and ventilation. I've been reading some research and reports that have been sent to me by some of my ventilation guru friends and it became apparent that a very good strategy may be not just to increase the ventilation to cover COVID but to maximize smaller in-space filtration units. And at the appropriate time, I could send you the papers that I think are the best on this that indicate that the balance of strategies between increased ventilation on the one hand and in-space filtration on the other for, and I could go on at length, but I won't. So those are my two questions and one comment. Well, actually, yeah, two questions and one comment. Oh, and you wanna do two and three? No, my second, my third was not a question, it was the comment about how I think that, or I'm beginning to understand the value of filtration I'd like to, and I can, I'll move, I'll keep my eye on this as the conversation moves forward into advanced design stages. Thanks for the question, Bruce. Maybe I can answer the first one. I see Simon raising hand. I'm sure he's talking about deep ventilation. I'll pass it over to him. Just a little comment on the infiltration air tightness. You know, usually the blow-dough tests, you know, in the past was limited to the small-scale buildings, but we are actually looking at a couple of schools where we are compartmentalizing some areas and doing the blow-dough tests, pressurizing, and the target, at least, some of these schools are still under design or construction. We are targeting .7, ACH, and 50 FASCALs, but you know, that is just something we need to sit and talk through with envelope commissioning folks. There will be an envelope commissioning agent or a commissioning agent who will also do the envelope. So that needs, that dialogue needs to happen and we can establish that, but that is what we've been seeing. And then I just wanted to add on the logistics of doing blow-or-door tests on a large building is issues we've run into before. We typically do a mock-up, which is built to the same standard. And then those construction practices can be applied to the entire building as another way of monitoring. And then the mock-up itself is tested. So it's sort of a redundant test and system. The mock-up is pressurized. It's actually three-dimensional. It's a type of mock-up you might see for window testing. And we've been doing that with new projects as part of the pre-construction testing of the envelope as it comes together. Thank you. And then just to add to that, because I'm always worried about the money, MSBA is actually providing a commissioning agent for the project. It's not, and they'll pay for it as well. So that is not going to be borne by the town, which is enormous. Yeah, it's awesome. That's the blow-or-door test is paid by the town. And that's, again, cost benefit. That's a significant cost for building this size. Yes, I thought so. And then there was the first question, which I don't know that we got to about the decoupling, which ventilation would be through ducts, some of them. Some of them wouldn't. Yeah, decoupling means not necessarily separating the ductwork as much as treating the condition there separately. One is like, traditional method was that you cool down during the summertime or everything down to 55 degrees, which wasted a lot of energy. So decoupling means we just take outside air portion of it and bring it down to demitrify. So you save a lot of energy doing that. And when it comes to separation of ductwork, it's a little complex and we could address that once we get to the point where we decide on what type of HPE system we'll be going with. And when it comes to COVID measures, both as a team, Denisco and I spent probably two years consulting with the various, a lot of different school districts. And we also could address that more specifically as we defined the HPE system. When it comes to portable system, whether it's HEPA filter, UBC lights, or combination thereof, we recommend that for most times retrofit projects because fixing the main system is very expensive for a lot of impractical, but portable system has a lot of issues that you have to be aware of. It's one is that they are noisy. So if you select a system and you can only select for high speed, you can't hear yourself think. So you end up offering a low speed, which is only fraction of recommended rates. So for the new, if it's new building, we'd rather just have a central system take care of everything. But we'll probably have a separate presentation regarding the COVID measures. Thank you. Thank you. And just to add to that, bringing it back to the net zero, the additional ventilation is also going to increase energy use. So really all of these decisions cannot be made in back-ins and everyone has to all understand that there might be some, I don't wanna say compromises, but agreed upon solutions. No, I wanted to know how you were thinking about these three or four things and you've answered perfectly well. Thank you very much. Kathy, do we have any other hands up? Hope you're muted, Kathy. Sorry. Sarah just raised her hand, but there's no, until then there was no other hand up. Okay. Thanks. Thanks for all the great work all. A few comments, one. So Donna, I hear you on the ability to get to net zero at a variety of EUIs by, you know, throwing more PV on the roof and getting there. And yet it's my understanding that that 25 EUI is critical from a utility incentives point of use is in the ever source program, a hard limit on 25 EUI. And I think there's like a buck 75 per square foot on the line for that, right? With additional incentives for verification after the fact. So it seems like we wanna be really confident that we're gonna hit 25 and not kind of try to make it up with PV otherwise. Is that your understanding in kind of the ever source dollars at stake? Actually, the last just recently completed project with ever source still received a significant incentive from them and we didn't hit 25. It was a net zero building and we didn't hit an EUI of 25. But we are in the process of reaching out to ever source, right? With Kim, Kimberly Cullinane and engaging them because this is a large, I forget the name of the program, but this is a large building program that we need to engage with them now to understand what's on the table. Yeah, she knows to look out for us. I've put her on, put this project on her radar. So she knows. She's our BFF, it's all. 25 is the number. So I really wanna encourage us to shoot for that. And then, similarly on targets, you guys may have seen that yesterday the Strap Proposal for the net zero stretch code came out and there are specific limitations contemplated for K-12 schools over 100K which I assume this school would be that relate to the heating EUI units. So they established a Teddy right the thermal energy demand intensity of 2.2 KB to use per square foot per year as the proposal for the stretch code. So if we're currently targeting 3.3, I think we're gonna have to bring that down a little bit to even be in compliance with what is right now, like the government's first salvo on the stretch code limit which is according to the regulatory timelines would go into effect January 2023. So like we would be underneath that. So I think we've gotta push that farther. The conversation around COVID and ventilation is of course top of mind for a lot of us here. And I wondered whether you all had used or had heard of the invariant technology which uses a sorbonate technology to instead of accomplishing clean air through ventilation strategy or kind of rather dilution strategy, it actually cleans the air using a sorbonate technology. This is what they use like up in space and spacecraft. So I don't know if you guys have used the invariant technology before but they're a Boston based company and doing great work. And I know some of their projects are school projects. So I would encourage you to talk to Christian Weeks and his team over there. Happy to make an intro if that would be helpful. But the upside there is that you get the same clean air but at a fraction of the energy cost. So again, this would help both with our energy bills and our UI target if we could be smarter about how we clean the air and not just be dumping dilution and to achieve that healthy clean air. And then the last kind of overarching comment I'll make is just I get a little pit in my stomach every time when we're having these conversations and I hear us place an opposition to one another the concepts of efficiency and cost. I heard earlier in this conversation, well, it's more efficient but it costs more. And I just, I understand we're talking about first cost but I wanna be really sure that we're being precise for audiences and we're not setting up efficiency as oppositional to cost because it's not if you're thinking about from a lifetime perspective, right? So I just wanna encourage us to be really careful when we're talking about some of these strategies and them costing more. We are talking about first cost when we say that and we really need to be keeping everyone's eyes equally if not more so focused on lifetime cost. This is gonna be a long-term asset for Amherst and we don't wanna like mislead people and say, oh, this green thing is just costing so much, right? I think it's a really great thing to point out. Yeah, and so I also got a little bit nervous when I heard that we're gonna be providing visibility to the carve out on the geothermal cost and the PV cost because while I appreciate that transparency and those are two big investments, the reaction that some people may have is, oh, look how expensive that piece is, look how expensive that PV is. And so when we present those carved out dollars, we really need to do it tethering back to what is getting us, right? So if we're gonna present the cost of PV, we need to put it up against the 30 year cost of utility power that is the alternative so that people see that that PV cost is gonna be lower than our 30 year utility costs on a lifetime perspective, right? Similar with geothermal, yes, we can present the geothermal and people are gonna go, oh, it's so expensive, but we need to present it alongside a life cycle cost. Otherwise people are gonna go, oh, look at that green thing is too expensive, right? And by law be damned, we will not get the votes that we need to build the building that we need. So I just want us to be really careful when we're talking about the cost of net zero because we're setting up some dangerous mindsets that will end up causing us problems down the road. Thanks. I think if it's okay, Jonathan, just to somewhat respond to that, you're absolutely right in all your points, Sarah, and we will be doing the life cycle cost analysis, right? So it's gonna tell you what your upfront cost is but what the cost is over the lifetime of the systems and the impact it has. So we will be making sure that that's abundantly clear. And we recognize how important all of this is to the community. And so the other component of this is, cost is already coming up, right? And there are, what we're hearing is comparing it to where you were in for your last project and how could the building be so much larger? How can, so I think because this isn't the first time and that there's some history here that it's going to be our responsibility to explain the differences and the nuances of where we are today and why we're here today, right? So not only is there inflation and all these other costs, but look at all these other great things we're doing, which will improve your asset for the lifetime of it, et cetera. But we just feel and we can have a conversation about how we demonstrate and share the information to make sure that it's not considered a negative, it's a positive, but yet we are responding to information that's out there based on some history. So Stephanie has her hand up, Jonathan. And Rudy had had his hand up and I brought him into the room. I don't know whether he also has his hand up. Well, why don't we go with Stephanie and then that'll give Rudy an opportunity. Oh, he did. Okay, Stephanie, please. Your sound, Stephanie, you're muted. There we go. Sorry about that. First, I wanna thank Sarah. She actually covered two points that I wanted to raise and one was certainly the utility incentive and bringing them in early. So I'm really glad to hear that's happening. The second thing was life cycle cost, but also I wanna respond to the history of the last building at the time the town did not have a goal of carbon neutrality by 2050 and the town council has passed that resolution. It exists now. And I think to our Energy and Climate Action Committee's point that that needs to be a factor, that that goal needs to be a factor in the design of this building, especially because it is one that we will have for at least 30 years or more. So we need to make sure that it is online with meeting our goals for the town. So I just, when, you know, similarly to Sarah, I do get a little tense when I hear that the cost is, you know, exorbitant or prohibitive. I feel like we need to find a way around that and that there's opportunities for bridging the gap of sort of baseline costs for efficiency that, you know, there could be supplemental incentives or things that can cover the difference. So I just want us to not stop at that barrier. Thank you. Ready? Thanks. On the cost issue, I'm a little concerned. I mean, obviously the EUI may stay the same whether you have a bigger or smaller building overall, but other costs are gonna go up if we build too big of a building. And it looks to me like this building is quite big compared to like what we were looking at for the Fort River Feasibility Study. If you scaled that up by number of students, you wouldn't get a building this big. So I hope we will go back and really scrutinize the program for the building and whether we really need 113,000 square foot building. Because that's, even if you've got a great EUI, you're adding to the number of geothermal wells you're gonna have to have, the number of solar panels you're gonna have to have to cover all that extra space. So I think that's one area where the cost has gotta be pushed back is the overall size of the building. On the ASHRI study that you guys noted, one of the things you didn't put in was that their recommendation for a target EUI was 19.2 is a starting point. If I read that other tables, right? And I believe Vemchi, you managed, you mentioned that they made certain assumptions that got them to that 19.2, particularly on the operating and behavior practices. And I wonder, maybe not today, but if at some point you could go through what some of those were, why there's such a big spread between a 25 EUI goal for us here and their 19.2 goal for a climate zone 5A school building. It might be useful to just see whether there's some other things we aren't looking at that they did. Third, I wanted to make sure that you, that the Dinesco team got the info I sent about the Hawthorne parcel, which I think is, I don't know if that parcel, abuts the school property. And actually I think there might be a smaller parcel above it that abuts. And if we get into, you know, issues about where to locate the geothermal, I wonder if we can talk with the town about stealing off a little bit of use of that parcel. If we can, I don't know if that's already been programmed for something by the town, but I think that's important to take into account. And then for massing, I assume a three-story cube-like building would be sort of the best mass. And I'm wondering what the elevator, extra elevator costs will be. Do you still come out ahead with three stories? I hope we don't have lots of little projections in the buildings that don't add much usable space, but add more surface area and construction complications, which is Rick added as a former project manager. I've seen those little projections and stuff are often where you have, you know, leakage of water and energy and stuff. So a simple building, maybe three-story cube, I assume that's where you're going, but whether we come out ahead even with elevator usage on that. And those are the main things now. It's like, how can we get it down lower? A lot of other schools in Massachusetts and elsewhere in the North are down in the low 20s for their EUI targets. Some of them are operating at that. And particularly if we're gonna have a really big building, I'd like to see a lower EUIs or overall energy use is lower. Cause we've got operating costs to think of and maintenance costs and the bigger building you build, the more light fixtures and more floor space and more of everything you've gotta maintain. And that's costly to heat and to keep up. So I hope we'll look at that again much more with much more scrutiny. We're gonna spend a lot of time looking at how to save energy. Let's look at some time, how to save space in this building. Thanks. I just had a quick comment to assure Rudy that the Hawthorne Property Information was forwarded to Denisco. It was also forwarded to the town manager who is getting his staff on answering your question on is that available or not? So thank you very much for sending it in so specifically and it activated channels, at least within the town. So I don't think we have an answer to that, but it did flag that. So I wanna thank you for that. Kathy, do you see any other folks in the audience who might wanna come in or sorry, you muted again? Tried to mute myself so I don't make a noise. There, Maria Capecchi has her hand up. So I can also just allow her to speak because that seems, Maria, you can unmute. I brought you in so you can speak. You're here, I think, yes. All right. No, I'm here, hear me. Okay, so I want to share both Sarah's and Rudy's concerns about staying committed to net zero and staying committed to doing what this committee is tasked to produce in this building. And I heard some concerning things at the recent school committee meeting by some members who maybe don't quite understand the commitment to do this and that it does have everything that they will be deciding in terms of educational programming and how to meet those needs has an impact on your work in both the school building committee and the net zero subcommittee. Because every change in square foot has an impact on cost and how we manage things from an energy efficiency standpoint. So I think there may need to, it may be a matter of explaining or having people that are doing that work really understand the interconnections between the decisions that they're going to be making early in the process which will lock us into size and scope of the project that as you're going to try to balance between the choices that you talked about, likewise, I think we need to do that work now before we get locked into something that's going to make it very difficult for you. And I want this to be a building. I don't want this to be all aspirational. It has to result in a building, but to do that, we have to do something that we can actually afford to do. There are real limitations from a lot of different angles and we have to think of that holistically before we complete this early work. Thank you. Kathy, anyone else who might be in the audience for the race to end? Rudy, do you have your hand up still or do you? I think Rudy's hand didn't go down. I didn't know whether he raised, okay. So no, there are no hands that I see anywhere. Great. Well, I guess I'd like to circle back, Sarah, before I continue. Sorry, if you want to keep going, that's fine. I was, if we have time, I will offer more thoughts, but you can also tell me that you have more to do on the agenda. Well, our agenda is, I think we're getting towards the end. So I'd like to complete the question and comment period and then just kind of circle back to Donna to make sure that she needs more explicit direction from the subcommittee that we give her that before we break. So, Sarah, you're good? Okay. I think she shook her hand down so we can get our marching orders. Donna, what more do you need from the subcommittee this morning? You've kind of presented a case for the 25 UI. To me, personally, it sounds like a rational kind of stake in the ground as much as I might like to do a lower one, but also understanding the challenges. Tim, I don't know if you want to jump in. Well, I mean, a stake in the ground is, is in fact what we're looking for. I mean, obviously stakes move and we adjust on all factors moving forward, but our decision-making process moving forward can see that 25 as the target and make decisions accordingly. And as we get more and more developed information, we will be continuously reassessing, but the statement of 25 as the target, yes, is part of what we need. And then just also some sort of agreement that the process as we've laid it out makes sense in terms of if there is anything else that we need to meet about before, give or take a month from now, please let us know, but otherwise, the information that we talked about having at that next meeting we won't have before then. So basically confirmation of the target and the schedule as it relates to the entire project. Okay. Rupert or Ben or Kathy, any kind of comment on that? I wonder, Jonathan, do you need to do something formal like? Yeah, so I'm wondering, do we need to formally vote on it? We certainly can't do that. I'm willing to make a motion that we recommend a target of EUI at this point from the committee and have you report that up to the full committee and then we could put the types of caveats Tim just did on it, but I would just separate that out that this is a starting point and it's needed for doing this initial preliminary design cost estimating. So I make a motion that we recommend a target of an EUI of 25. Rupert or Ben, do you wanna second that? I will second that. Okay. I will second it. And I'll do a roll call kind of vote, Ben. And yes, I, et cetera. Rupert? Rupert, I. Kathy? Yes. And I'm also in favor. And then Tim, I mean, Jonathan is chair, but we can submit that recommendation and also between the two of us where Jonathan can pick out the charts that show the timeline, like what comes next. And we know, you know, the monthly, you gave us some ideas of what we're gonna see at that. So we can do more than just this one line in a quick summary. And where we're meeting next week? Next Friday. So it doesn't have to be, and Margaret's doing minutes for us, Jonathan, if you wanna capture any of this and we will get you the video, we're trying to post the videos right after the meeting to the extent we can. And Rupert's hand is up. I just would like some clarity on how we can assist next steps in terms of our expected actual occupancy. And I think it would probably be important to involve Dr. Morris in that discussion as well. I would agree. Yeah, we've already reached out to him. And we've offered a schedule that we typically use as we need that information to produce the lifecycle cost analysis and all that information. So I'm sure you'll be hearing from him, Rupert. Thank you. Okay. Not seeing or hearing any more or seeing any more hands up or hearing more comments. I think we may be able to wrap up today's meeting. And so I guess I could entertain a motion to say we're done or we could just be done. I think you can adjourn us, Michael, Jonathan, unless you want to go through a vote. No, that's all right. We are adjourned. Thank you all for all your efforts today. Thank you.