 Cool. Awesome. Thanks to everyone that's attending this. So this is kind of what we've been doing almost every KubeCon, where we have our technical oversight committee gathered here to basically show that they're a human, people that you could talk to, and answer your questions. I'll have them all go through a brief introduction on themself. My name is Chris Sanizek. I have the fun job of being CTO of the organization. But these are the folks that actually do a ton of the actual work in ensuring that we cultivate and accept archive projects. So maybe we'll start my left to right. So Richie, do you have a microphone? Yeah, we'll go that. I do not. Oh, it works. It's better than the other room. Hi, I'm Richie. I work at Grafana. I sit on the TOC. I sit on the governing board. I'm a Prometheus team member, open telemetry member. Sorry. Hi, everyone. I'm Nikita. I work at VMware. I'm a CTOC. I'm also a KubeCon chair, co-chair this time. And I work on communities. Name is Emily Fox. Sorry, I've been talking a lot today. My name is Emily Fox. I work for Redhead. I'm the chair of the Technical Oversight Committee. I was wearing Nikita woods earlier with KubeCon. So I'm a Meredith. Good, thank you. And I do a lot of stuff in open source. So you see me in a lot of ecosystems. And I'm boring, but here. Hi, I'm Matt Farina. I work for SUSE on Ranger. I'm also a helm maintainer, artifact hub maintainer. Do you want to start from the CNCF? Hi, I'm Ricardo. I'm a computer engineer at CERN. I work on the Kubernetes and machine learning platforms. And I think it's the third year in the TOC now. And the microphone's not on. Sorry. I'm Justin Cormac. I'm the CTO at Docker. Been involved with CNCF for a long time. Used to, was involved in setting up tech security. And generally, we've contributed a lot of projects to CNCF at Docker. And it's a very important part of the work we do and the ecosystem community. Hey, I'm Duffy Cooley. I'm the field CTO at ISA Valent. I've been involved in Kubernetes since about 1.6. And I'm also a CNCF ambassador. So I'm glad to be here talking to all of you. Hi, I'm Erin Boyd. I work for Red Hat. I've been in the CNCF since the jump. It's one of the original chairs to SIG Storage. And I'm just pleased to meet you all and see how to get you all more involved. And I'm going to close the round. Hello, everyone. My name is Katie Gamanje. I'm currently a senior field engineer at Apple. I am focusing on exploring open source technologies, especially within the cloud native space. I've been with the TOC for three years. I'm closing my term in March next year. So if you'd like to be a TOC, please keep your eyes open. We're going to have the elections happening in December. I'm just going to do this as well, straight on. So you'll have a chance to be here in front of everyone as well. I have been collaborating with many projects in the ecosystem. I am the creator of the cloud native fundamentals course as well. So if you have any questions in regards to how to get involved in cloud native or where to get the right resources, please reach out. Awesome. Thank you very much. So generally, the way we've run these things is we do kind of a brief, like, hey, here's how the CNCF works, because a lot of people sometimes still get confused. Then I generally ask these lovely folks a couple of questions to start things off and then kind of open it up everything to the floor for people to ask questions, interact with folks. So to kind of do our usual thing, CNCF, we really have three kind of main bodies that kind of rule the organization. First is the governing board. Very simple. These are the folks that basically control the budget. You have the TOC, which is mostly situated here. They control the overall technical vision, which projects get in or out of the organization. And then you have the end user community and a really newly booted end user tab, a technical advisory board that's going to work with all these folks. So these are kind of the three pillars of CNCF. They're all kind of independent, but they closely work together at the end of the day. So tags, these are a bit of a, not too new of a structure, but they've kind of really grown and evolved over the last 12 months, in my opinion. We have tags that are usually dedicated to a specific area, network, security, storage, contributor strategy, environmental sustainability. These are kind of the core areas where, if you're ever interested, where we are going to have TOC elections coming up pretty soon, getting involved in a tag is basically the gateway to kind of really get involved, I think, with the TOC long term. And I highly recommend participating there first and then joining TOC meetings, which are all open to the public anyway. I will always shamelessly use an excuse to pitch a new landscape that we're going to be coming out with soon. But the whole purpose of this exercise is to show everyone here that we, as an organization, have kind of grown kind of quite significantly. The TOC has grown a little bit historically, but we have basically 100, should be 175 projects but that are under the purview of these. We've had a lot of graduations, audits that we've done, and so on. So the organization kind of continues to grow, and you kind of have this body of 11 total people that really help kind of steward and manage these projects. So if you're kind of interested and want to play with something new, check it out. It's got a lot more data in it. And it's something that the TOC itself, and we have Dave that show will introduce him pretty quick. No, that's OK. Perfect. We had quorum already, so we're pretty good, but it's good to have you join. So Dave, how about you say a quick hello about who you are and your partner? I'm Dave. I'm a principal engineer on the platform team at Spotify. And I also work a lot with backstage. Can I give the mic back to Katie? OK. So one thing people always ask, we don't really get to it. If you want to propose a project, we've done a lot of work to kind of make this a little bit easier. There's been an Evolve Sandbox project, Sandbox project process that we have that you could just go to Sandbox at CNCF.io, apply, very kind of a little bit more straightforward. Generally, we do recommend if you want to bring a project to CNCF, please work with a respective tag and kind of work with them to kind of give you feedback before you maybe generally apply. That's going to be the better approach, in my opinion, before going directly to the TOC. All of the stuff is also being very much tracked now in public and in a project board that you get to. And of course, there's a process of going through incubation, graduation, and so on. But I'm not going to dive in too much there, but given how much valuable time we have today. In terms of process, we have a lot of kind of Sandbox projects that have kind of come in this year in a variety of different categories. You could kind of see that the focus really, I think, is kind of what we call app delivery. But that's such a large bucket that covers so many things. But it's kind of more higher level up the stack related projects, things like networking, maybe a little bit less popular these days, because we basically have so many different, let's call it, CNIs and service meshes and CNCF already. But this is kind of an idea of what you could see of what kind of has happened so far this year. And really, we're all here to open up and ask questions to the TOC in terms of what's on their mind and so on. So I think the first question I will throw out there to the TOC is, so we've kind of evolved the tags quite a bit. And we've got a lot of them now. Do you think we have all the ones that we necessarily need? Do any changes that we need to kind of involve? Because I think there are some kind of lessons learned we've had in the past, let's call it, year especially. Yeah, we had this discussion in our last meeting. And I think there's a whole bunch of areas that are missing. I mean, where's tag performance is one of my questions. Like performance of cloud native code is something that's actually very different from performance of other kinds of code. And there's lots of properties of the cloud that are actually very different. Things tend to be kind of high bandwidth, high latency and very paralysable, which is a kind of interesting characteristic that's different from running code previously. And people need help in building high performance code. We have people like CERN who have big performance, cloud native performance issues, you know, really interesting. So I think there's a whole bunch of areas that we don't have. So it's a good question, Chris. Thank you for asking. As you can see, we do have strong opinions about this. But quite frankly, we've had our tags for a long period of time. CNCF has been around for eight years. The question comes up often is the tag helps. How are they doing? How are they performing? Are they engaging with projects? Are projects engaging back with tags? Do we have the right ones to Justin's point? This is a lot of conversation that's been an ongoing dialogue. We wanna ensure that we're setting up technical advisory groups for success. So ensuring we have momentum contributors that are interested in individuals that are capable and interested in leading these groups is essential for that success to happen. But also we started asking questions about what is the intent of the tags? What do we look to them to get out of our projects? Or what do we look to them to do to advance a particular domain area? Several of our tags reach out to projects and openly invite them to join the CNCF and apply for Sandbox or apply it incubation. In other cases, they reach out to projects to understand where are you having some difficulty in this particular domain area or for tag contributor strategy? How do we help you get more contributors? How do we improve your governance to ensure that your maintainers are set up for success? These are all questions that we have to consider when we explore adding new tags or even removing tags that may be inactive because the ecosystem is moved beyond that need. And it's important that when we have these conversations that we're consider it that it's okay for change to happen. We just need to ensure that we're documenting the process of being very transparent in the decision making and allowing people to reskill into these new areas. Awesome. I'll have two more questions before I open it up to the audience. So the one always that comes up is like, what is missing in CNCF, right? You know, we kind of discussed this a little bit earlier today. If you look at the landscape currently, the only, let's call it category or subcategory that doesn't really have an incubating or graduated project right now is continuous optimization, right? But we have an open cost in the sandbox and arguably you could say cloud custodian also does a bit of continuous optimization. So I kind of curious from the TOC's point of view like, have we filled all of our little boxes yet? What is missing? Richie's hand immediately goes up. Okay. A vault replacement would be nice. A replacement for vault would be nice. Okay. This is the obvious one. We don't have very many developer tools projects. Historically we've been quite ops focused and but we started having a few and we got little bits of them and but like how should developers work with cloud native is a really important area that we don't have a strong story in yet. And you know, I think it goes up with developers platform engineering, right? We've got a little bit there and it's probably just scraping the space is where we're at right now. We're just kind of touching it. And so I think there's definitely space to just expand around developer platforms. Yeah, and I think to add on to that which Dave is probably the best person to speak to it is like what are we doing day two and day three beyond? Like we built this huge massive complex ecosystem with 174 projects in it. And how are we actually managing those effectively to provide the resiliency that we expect? And you know, it's great to see projects like backstage come into the ecosystem that aren't necessarily Kubernetes focused because I know a lot of people who've been here for a long time, you know, if it wasn't Kubernetes, it didn't matter. And I think we're really seeing it evolve out beyond that of you know, what are we providing in terms of value to the cloud native ecosystem and just not to the Kubernetes ecosystem, so. Another thing I think you are probably already seen on the coupon keynote stage has been AI. I was just talking to Chris about this morning is maybe we have like AI related tools in the cloud native landscape. Yeah, I mean, I think the big thing for me is the boxes themselves. Like we may have filled the boxes we have, but I think the other point about the landscape has existed long enough that like, are they even the right boxes? I mean, we might have a random box that doesn't have that isn't filled like continuous optimization. But the fact that like half the projects are coming into app delivery probably means that it's just the wrong boxes. And if we were to look at what the, I wanna use the word landscape, but I shouldn't. If you look at like the ecosystem today and we were to cut it up in a way that makes sense, would that or would that not look like the boxes we have on the landscape? And if it doesn't, we probably then have empty boxes and then we should have a conversation. And the vault conversation comes up at every KubeCon. A bunch of us talk about developer experience and not necessarily like each individual project, but like, what is the developer experience across the ecosystem? Cause I think many of the projects have a really good operator experience or a really good like day zero experience, but what you do after that, what you do once, whether it's day two things or just as a developer that doesn't care about the clusters, but only cares about their service or doesn't care about the entire network, just cares about their packets. Like those sorts of things I think we're still not doing great on. I don't know where that lives on the landscape because I don't think we have a box for that, but that's a thing that I think we're missing. Just gonna say, because we were discussing this earlier as well in another session, but as we look at how the boxes should look like, it's also time to review the projects to see which ones don't make sense anymore, to basically make space for the new things. There's potential to add new areas, but maybe some other areas don't make sense anymore at all, our individual projects. So it's time kind of to review all of this. And I think I would like to conclude that our landscape is always evolving to the point that the TOC recently actually updated the technical vision for the CNCF and the definition. So that means that what we envisaged the ecosystem to look like five years ago, eight years ago is completely changed. So this stage when we're looking into the bigger picture in the perspective of what we're missing is all of these big initiatives around AI. Last year it was everything around WebAssembly. The previous year it was a boom for security. So you can see these projects that are emerging and there are definitely some of them have a rights, CNCF is the right space for them to develop and grow. And I think for us is important to create that space where these projects can come, but at the same time for the communities to grow and engage with those projects as well. So, and another thing I would like to mention is like, I would like to see definitely a better developer experience as going up the stack and simplifying the way we adopt things. I would definitely love to see more engagements and initiatives around sustainability as well. We talked about it, but it's not about talking. We actually have to do things about it, like increase the maturity of our projects. So we had Kepler that was recently included into Sunbox in September. We had the Kera CarbonEware operator as well that was developed by, I think it's Microsoft and we found that mistaken. So we have all of these initiatives and at this stage, they are very initial level as well. So what we need to do is to actually increase the maturity for these projects and we have the tags for that. But I think it's not just about the projects that we're missing, it's about the people that we're missing that will continue their engagement and enthusiasm for these initiatives. Thanks. Definitely one of the things that's interesting to me about the CNCF and the scope of what we consider to be projects that should be included when we're looking out there and trying to see what are the gaps in what we're building here. It's an interesting challenge to continually modify the scope of what could be interesting. Like today it's pretty easy to look at that landscape and understand the categories in which we're focused. But tomorrow that world is changing. Like we think about WOSM, we think about WebAssembly, we think about lots of other tools that are out there and it's a really interesting thing that this continues to evolve in that way. I was not saying like everyone answered that was awesome. So maybe one kind of final funny question before we open up to the audiences. So I heard WebAssembly mentioned a few times by folks. We have a bunch of projects kind of that are using it. We have some run times as WebAssembly gonna replace containers, as a peanut butter and jelly either or I'm kind of looking at Justin here maybe to say something. But kind of what are your thoughts and kind of the role of WebAssembly and the cloud native ecosystem, Justin? Yeah, and I think that WebAssembly is kind of interesting because it's got a lot of the same properties as containers, it's a sandbox. People want to deploy it in the same kinds of way. It's got enough of the same properties. And one of the things that we want, we don't, that we've learned a whole lot of things in the cloud native ecosystem about how we want to build things and how we want to deploy things and how we want to run things. And we're not gonna kind of throw these learnings away just because we've changed a part of the stack, we're gonna evolve. And so immutable deployment is one of the things that we persuaded people with containers was a good idea. And it's incredibly valuable for a lot of reasons and we want to do the same thing with weather because it's like that's, we don't want to just go back and do things the way we used to do them because it's a new ecosystem. And things like orchestration is really important and how we build applications is a kind of long-running thing. Microservices and containers kind of grew up together because they fit organizationally as well as technically. And so I think these things are all kind of gonna evolve and we're gonna always be trying new things but we're gonna also be learning from what we've built already and what we've built in the ecosystem and we're gonna reuse components and use different components to do the same thing and so on. Yeah, you know, to add to that on WebAssembly, I think when we're doing cloud native stuff with containers, there are a lot of places where we've run into shortcomings, places where things just, we wish they could be better. And WebAssembly, well, it was developed for the browser. We quickly found that there are places in these cloud native spaces, it does things really well. And so now we're figuring out how to orchestrate it and use it and integrate it. And I think that the practical use cases are really good here because there are some things that it just excels at where containers wrapping things in like a Linux container don't work well where we can shrink things down, make things work a little bit more cross-platform. And WebAssembly I think brings some more of that promise and so it'll play really nicely in complementing containers for some of our tougher use cases. I've seen some recent innovations around this where WebAssembly became implementable as a container runtime. And that means that you could actually run it next to the existing stuff that you have running, right? You could have your existing containers running and you have your WebAssembly instances running kind of all in the same pod even, which is I think really highlights the value of everything else we've built in this ecosystem because I love the work that we've done around improving observability without actually having to instrument things. The ability to have network security and container security would still all apply pretty clearly to these new targets, right? So there's tons of, to your point, we're not throwing anything away. We're just taking what we've learned and applying it in interesting new ways to new technologies. Supporting more, that's what it really is. Containers have been around for a while but we all know our organizations do more than just containers. They've got virtual machines. They've got data centers, they've got cloud. Some of them have all of those things and then some other stuff that I don't even know about. So WebAssembly is just another tool for our adopters to be able to meet their goals and objectives and it's the intent of the cloud native ecosystem to enable that as much as possible within the definition. I was just gonna go a bit outside as well. There was the AI and HPC day on Monday. There was a presentation showing some limitations that we know exist with containers but become really relevant when we start talking about very large model serving and things like this, which is the way we told people to structure their containers was to optimize them, be immutable but suddenly we have a use case where a lot of data at runtime will come up from elsewhere. So how do we integrate that? We're not talking about just containers, we're talking about a lot of external data has to be integrated at runtime and we didn't design the system from scratch to do this kind of thing. So we kind of have to rethink a bit how we integrate these new use cases. And I think, I can close the remarks here. So this year we actually had the first BosmCon which happened in September. So definitely if you're interested in this particular initiative, do check it out. I think Chris is gonna be a great person to talk to you about the next situation. And then we have the section on the landscape which is focused on wasm tolling as well. So you'll be able to identify those as well. I think these are the starting points for people who would like to get involved more. And a wasm working group. Yeah. Yes. Can cloud need a wasm day. All right, I think we have probably like 15 minutes or so maybe to questions from the audience. So anyone wanna ask questions to these esteemed set of, oh, that dooms. Number one, oh, here you go. I would make it very easy. Hi friends, long time no see. Good to see you all. Happy to see you. So I want you to look backwards and count your wins in the last year. What is this TOC being able to accomplish? Especially because the organization is going so much and frame the wins in terms of scalability as well. Please, thank you. No pressure. So having, I think Matt and I both been involved since the very beginning of the CNCF when we even named sandbox. And I would say like, I think this year we have really with Emily leading the charge created a more consistent process by which we want to operate with a lot of community input. And realizing we're just 11 people with full time jobs and that we can't do it all. And so how do we do better? How do we serve the community and what they need better? And so part of that is documenting what we expect out of ourselves as TOC members in our time and contributions and then working our way down the stack. So one of the things that we'll be talking about there's a proposal out is like, how do we leverage our tags better? We have these subject matter experts in each one of these fields. And sometimes we don't have that representation on the TOC where we should. So how are we delegating out and preparing our tags to be better involved in the process for consistency sake? And how are we taking the feedback from the community? So I think that's a huge win because we haven't had a lot of stuff written down and every time we would switch to TOC it was a little bit different depending on, you know, what people thought was important. So I think that in and of itself is gonna create a better foundation as we move forward and elect new people with the elections as they will know what's expected, they will know what they're supposed to be doing, they will understand how they interact with the community and the tags and the processes are more defined. And to Katie's point is, you know, looking back, should we redefine what we are? We've evolved. And so, you know, taking that time to really reevaluate what our charter is and what we stand for, I think is pretty huge as far as it goes. And then just recognizing we can say no. I think that's a huge thing for the TOC. For a long time we said yes because we were trying to grow the ecosystem and now we recognize we should say no. We should help projects archive. We know that things end. So I think we've just come to a point in our maturity curve that we're finally in a good steady state. Sure, you know, I was really thinking of three things that have come to mind here. First, a year ago we announced the new sandbox process when we were at KubeCon and we've been in it. And I think I find this process to be easier to manage as a TOC member to go through things to get the better information and everything surrounding that. So I think that's a win for scalability and working through the process. Another thing that we've done more recently is how we do annual updates for sandbox processes or projects. It used to be a bit intensive and a bit of work. And we were working to automate that and help it scale. We'll still give us the signals when, hey, the sandbox project is in trouble. Go look at it or hey, the sandbox project, it might be ready for incubation. We're automating a lot of that to give us those signals. It's kind of the push method rather than the pull method to give us some more bandwidth. And so I think that's another win for scalability. And then another thing that we're in flight on right now is going through all the processes that we've got. Some of them, they haven't been updated in years. And how do we update those things and rethink them to help them scale and then work with those around us to make the people problem scale because there's 11 of us and we can only do so much. So how do we get all these other contributors to help us? And how do we automate as much as we can? So where we do invest, it's high value and we're working on that now. And so I think there's gonna be more wins come next year out of this effort. I also have three things to add. So first one was just to add on to what Erin said, we've been trying to delegate to tags as much as possible. So we've talked about sandbox annual reviews, but when sandbox applications come in, it's been really hard for us to review all of them. And the TOC aren't, not everyone on the TOC has domain expertise on every specific aspect. So we've been pinging tags on each of the, whenever a sandbox issue, whenever a project creates an issue on the sandbox repo, we've been pinging tags and they present at the tag meetings and then we get specific feedback from the tags before we make decisions. So that's one thing that's definitely helping with the application process. The other one is to improve participation in the tags. We also introduced a CNCF Taggy Award at KubeCon this time. And we're planning to do more efforts in recognizing contributors and tags. And third one is a shout out to Emily for project boards. So like we have project boards, shiny new project boards in the TOC report. Why don't you talk about it? So I'll make this real quick. There was a lack of transparency in where projects were at in the TOC, who was doing what, where things are at. We're fixing that. We now have a new projects board. You can see all the projects that applied to move levels. They're there. We try to keep them up to date with their status. Same thing with sandbox applications. There's a sandbox board there. But there's a lot of other issues. And the TOC is starting to operate more like an open source project. We want to create issues. We want to have discussions out in the open as much as possible. Then you should be able to see where we're focused, what it is that we're doing, where we're engaged. Then you can check those out on the TOC repo. It's under the beta boards. We have get voting. Oh yeah, that too. That's a big, and we had an offsite, which I thought was really helpful as well. I'm just going to say one thing. I think having Emily as TOC chair has been the difference because we've historically been overwhelmed and had nine people or 11 people, or it doesn't matter. But we've always done our best to stay afloat. And I think what Emily has done is challenged all of that and said that we need to have sustainable processes. We need to document things. We need to be transparent. We need to not say, okay, I'll just do this on a night or a weekend or whatever, because I'm behind. We need to actually fix the problem. Awesome. I was going to add one more, which is not related to the TOC, but there were tasks that the TOC felt we should be doing that are now delegated to the creation of the end user technical advisory board who was actually a huge achievement and a lot of work from a lot of people during this year. And it will really delegate some of the roles that were given to the TOC and kind of ease the work of the TOC members as well. Awesome. We have time for one more question, so we might as well let the gentleman who's been standing there graciously ask it. Yeah, I have a question. So there are a lot of projects outside the CNCF. KeekLocal is a good example. Let's jump into incubation earlier this year, right? So if you had the opportunity to go shopping and bring some projects in, what kind of projects would you be bringing in? Someone mentioned the vault fork though. Vault fork. Something like vault. Anything, something to fill that space of vault. That's my contribution to this. One more question. Yeah, we do, we do. Yeah, I have a question. By the way, I've been pretty involved with tech network, so I enjoy the sandbox review and try to add GitHub from the feedback on the tech network projects. The question I have is there are so much hypes around AI in this conference and also within the CNCF community. What are the goals or what are the thoughts that TOC have and how can we get more involved in activities related to AI? I just want to pick your brain on that. Let me start. There is an AI ML working group in tag observability and tag runtime. If you're interested in this topic on AI workload enablement and cloud native architectures as well as AI injection with cloud native projects, so ensuring that they can leverage that capabilities, that's the working group to go to. It's brand new. A lot of discussions happening. There's an AI hub where some of that was going on with an unconference that's been pulled into the meeting note stock associated with that and some other ideas going on in that space. So definitely check out the tag observability, tag runtime, that working group. If you can't find your people on that topic, let us know in the TOC public channel or tag chairs channel. We'll figure out where we should be putting those conversations. We have tag observability and tag runtime. People can just raise your hand so that people know who to watch out for. Okay. And I think we'll probably wrap up, but by the way, I think we're totally in another hype cycle for some of us who are old enough and been around the block. This is like, all right, here we go. Wee and then trough at this illusion and back to normal. And we're gonna have probably a year of this on the AI side because that's where the marketing dollars are unfortunately going. So with about a minute or so left, I kind of wanna thank everyone here for the time. Please feel that everyone is accessible here. Join TOC meetings, they're open. We're totally willing to get more folks involved. We are gonna be holding elections soon. So if you're curious about how to get involved in that, let us know. We'll have a public blog post pretty soon, but we'll be excited to get new fresh faces involved with this community. And come be a part of it. Come join the public meeting. Come be a part of a tag. Come work your way up and be up here like us. There's nothing between you and it, but air an opportunity. That's exactly right. And we need more contributors in the ecosystem. If you're not familiar with any of the projects, go join a tag of an area of interest for you. They would love to see you show up, help pitch in, and maybe I'll be here in the audience asking you one day. Where's Cloudy, you've had a next. Awesome. Thank you everyone. So thanks. Thanks.