 We have a cyber security solution that uses blockchain technology. We are now part of the Airbus Accelerator Program, Co-Innovation Acceleration Program, and also recently got listed as one of the top 20 cyber security ventures worldwide. Apart from that, I'm also the co-founder of a company called Blockchain Works in Singapore. It's a blockchain design studio where we design a number of solutions that fall bank in the blockchain space. One of the things we're looking at is a digital banking platform powered by blockchain technology. And last but not the least, there is an exchange called the Gibraltar Stock Exchange. Late last year announced the launch of the Gibraltar Blockchain Exchange where you're going to be able to trade, you know, the stock exchange, where you trade stocks and things like that. The blockchain exchange is where you're going to be able to trade crypto and things like that. And I'm the chief blockchain officer as part of that team. Great. Now, after a quick introduction, how many of you have heard about Blockchain and have kind of seen something in that space? Most of you? OK, now comes the interesting question. How many of you either own or trade or have dabbled in Bitcoin or some of the other cryptocurrency? How many of you have that? Fantastic. So here's the thing. This space is getting hotter than hot and faster and it's moving really fast these days. But last year was a phenomenal year when it came to both Bitcoin and blockchain as a technology, the cryptocurrency space as well as the blockchain space. One thing that clearly emerged was the divergence, right? So you have blockchain, which emerged as, you know, on its own as a technology and started to make its way into enterprise, into enterprise IT. So number one, you had a number of consortiums coming together. You had the technology consortium, things like Hyperledger, the Hyperledger Foundation. But you also had the Ethereum Enterprise Alliance and things like that, you know, starting to get formed and the coalitions coming together. But you also saw a lot of use case based consortiums that started to get formed, which is around supply chain, for example, where you saw port authorities, shipping companies and even customs and folks like that starting to get together and explore end to end tracking and tracing of, you know, cargo on a blockchain. So that is one space where blockchain emerged. On the other side, you of course saw the rise of cryptocurrencies, things starting with simple like Bitcoin, which was around $1,000 at the start of 2017, landed up close to $15,000 and, you know, somewhere in December, right? But apart from Bitcoin and Ethereum and Ethereum and things like that, you also saw a whole rise of cryptocurrencies. So what you had is, you know, thousands of companies that raised anywhere between three to four billion dollars by just issuing tokens, right? And so what you also landed up the end of the year with is about a thousand different cryptocurrencies, which suddenly took the market cap of all cryptocurrencies somewhere close to $600 billion. Now that is a big sum. So on the back of that, you have something even more interesting happened, which you see a lot of intermediaries come together, right? So things like financial funds, hedge funds and things like that, that started to form crypto funds. There are a thousand cryptocurrencies. I've got to, how do I pick which one? And then, you know, I, you know, I'm a high net worth individual guys like, hey, I want to park 2% of my, you know, of my asset portfolio in these currencies. Great hedge fund manager, can you manage that for me? Asset manager, can you look? So you saw a lot of that. But last but not the least, you had entire nation states, entire countries decide to move towards the blockchain, right? For example, in Dubai, you have the Dubai Future Foundation, which announced that by 2020, all government related documentation will be exclusively on the blockchain. So now what you have is a rush, where all companies and all sorts of agencies and government departments rushing to comply with that. Number one, number two, if some of you are from Singapore out here, of course, you know that the MAS piloted the Singapore dollar on the blockchain, right? As part of Project Ubin, again, not for retailers, but this was basically to look at settlement among banks and different financial institutions. And so you had a whole lot of things and which made 2018, of course, a very exciting 2017, a very exciting year. Of course, come 2018, and then you've seen the cryptocurrency pretty much halfing in value, you know, many of them falling way beyond half also. So that was 2017, which was a great year. But within that year, within that same great rise and exploration and everything, you of course had your industry, of course, always challenges. So number one, you had wallets being breached. You had you have ICOs getting hacked. You have complete exchanges getting hacked. South Korea's UBIT got hacked and lost about 4,000 Bitcoin. The latest at the start of 2018 is which is coin check in Japan, which lost half a billion dollars' worth of tokens. That's pretty much one of the biggest I think they've had in date. So and that's when regulators and things like that and other started getting cautious, right? Of course, I don't even my previous the previous speaker mentioned it briefly, where you saw cryptocurrency is also becoming the de facto choice of currency or whatever you call it for a whole lot of illicit activities. For example, Bitcoin pretty much established itself at the choice of currency for hackers. Last year, you had the two big global incidents, which are WannaCry and Petty at the malware. And then those guys wanting ransom payments in Bitcoin. So and so it had fair share of challenges. Not and some of them, of course, went to the extreme step, right? Where you have some of these scams and things forced regulators, for example, in China to say, hey, we have a carpet ban. We said none of this is acceptable. So no more ICOs. And so now you have a lockdown of these things in places like China. South Korea, of course, got cautious. But then as I hear today, you have the Japanese regulator, which is now suing a Hong Kong based exchange for operating illegally in the country. The challenge there being that is, as of today, one of the world's biggest cryptocurrency exchange. So you can imagine. And now the Japanese regulator after that. So a number of things that you have a number of challenges that the problem happens is if cryptocurrencies or blockchain has to go mainstream, you've got to have institutions coming on board. It can't be just a bunch of enthusiasts, people like us in the room, you know, that go and start to dabble in this technology. You need the institutions coming on board. And to have them on board, of course, these things can't be happening. So how do you bring out security? How do you bring about things like regulation and pieces of that in place, right? And that's where you're seeing organizations like the Gibraltar Stock Exchange, which is an European Union regulated stock exchange announcing the Gibraltar blockchain exchange, which is the goal is to be the world's first regulated token sale platform and cryptocurrency exchange, right? So now today, for example, if I have a large bank and it wants to, you know, have have customers invest in cryptocurrencies. Hey, there is a legitimate regulated institution where it can go and start to participate. Is that the right way? Is that the way it's going to be in the future? I don't know this industry changes so fast, right? It's we're right at the start. But yes, you're seeing a lot more regulation and security based issues coming around. Again, this is more of a map. So today, after all these things, there's no there's no country or you can't see that it's it's it's legal or it's absolutely illegal. If you look across the globe and you look at the spread of green, yellow and the more orange and the red, the red is where it's absolutely unacceptable. The green is where they say, great, it's fine right now, including Singapore, where, you know, Mass has taken a very MS has taken a very positive approach to saying, hey, let's explore how this thing evolves, right? And then you've got certain countries with our weight and watch. But the main thing is this map evolves every day, pretty much every day. Earlier this year, and if you see India and Orange there earlier this year, you had the finance minister of the country actually during the budget session state how Bitcoin is no longer accepted as legal tender. And they're going to actually clamp down on that. And then I was talking but also reading about a couple of exchanges which are now really unhappy because they've lost their business has dropped by over 90 percent. These are the cryptocurrency exchanges and there's no law signed in which says that it is illegal. But yes, the way the government is headed, they completely support blockchain, but they are apprehensive and they're going to be clamping down on things like Bitcoin and trading of other cryptocurrencies. And well, OK. So my opinion when it comes to the tokenization and the whole crypto space, I think we're just at the start. So in 2017, what you saw is a whole lot of ICOs, initial coin offerings, token sales and things like that. Remember, this is what you have today is just blockchain companies doing that a handful of blockchain companies, early adopters, fast moving companies, really new ones that have started to adopt this market, this approach to market to raise funds, right? But to borrow, what you're going to see is a much larger second wave, as I call it, where you'll see digital ventures. So things like e-commerce companies, mobile companies, social media firms and things like that also start to go into tokenization and look at using digital tokens as form of payments or as forms of value exchange. Mobile apps, IoT applications and things like that. That's the second phase. And I think that you're going to see part of that this year and then extend into 2019. But the real big part is beyond that. And that's where you'll see all sorts of brick and mortar companies, coffee shops, airlines, shipping firms and things like that, start to tokenize, start to use digital tokens, start to use tokens as a medium of value exchange and things like that, right? Again, now this is how I see. So 2018 and then 2019, 2020. That's when you're also going to see regulation come in because manufacturers, retailers are not exactly going to jump until these things start to fall in place. But regulations and governance is going to evolve over time. But a lot of companies have actually started to jump the gun. So if I remember right, Singapore Airlines has actually already started to pilot its Chris Flyer miles on the blockchain. So you could actually have Chris Flyer miles that could be simple tokens that you have in a wallet and could exchange it for different value. I know of a company that's doing marine maritime asset investment. So what they're trying to do is take vessels, ships and tokenize them on the platform and basically let anybody like you and me simply just go and invest in vessels using either fiat currency like dollar zero or simply invest in these ships using Bitcoin or Litecoin or some other cryptocurrencies. What that basically says is I can't afford to buy a ship today. But if I can have fractional ownership of that, I can probably own 1% of a ship. And if I want to invest in it as an asset class, tomorrow I will have that option. Today, of course, we don't, right? I also know of a project that's doing the exact same thing with real estate properties. I would like to participate in a special economic zone or one of these large things. And of course, again, so one is you want to, it's meant for institutions to be able to get into these otherwise ill liquid asset classes, but also for common people and you basically democratize investment into the some of these investments that today are only available to a select few, right? So what that does is these platforms basically do three things. Number one is they offer fractional ownership. They take a large asset and break it down into pieces so that a lot more people can invest in them. Number two, they of course create a lot more liquidity. So by tokenizing it, suddenly you have a lot more liquidity to be able to invest in, get in and get out. And last but not the least, of course, you create a very vibrant secondary market. So this is where we see the market, where I see the market moving and the real big wave will come at the far end where you've got manufacturers, even coffee shops trying to tokenize. However, on the point of coffee shops, I last heard that Starbucks is already piloting stuff on the blockchain. Very quickly, where you go, and this is just a snapshot of Asia since we're in this part of the world today, where in Asia are you seeing acceptance? So for example, I know a lot of companies that are doing tokenization and ICOs in Singapore right now, but even in Hong Kong. Of course, a lot less in Vietnam, while Vietnam is actually marked and read, I was down in Vietnam two weeks ago speaking at the Vietnam Blockchain Week and I saw at least, I met at least four to five local companies that were trying to do an ICO. Again, they might domicile it locally or they might simply domicile it in a more friendly place like a Singapore or a Hong Kong. Again, Japan is one country which is very welcome. In fact, in Japan, you can simply go to small shops and even they will accept Bitcoin from you. Of course, there's a slight markup which they will charge because of the processing fee associated with it. Australia is another great place where one of the largest token sales last year from a company called Power Ledger was actually based out of Australia and they did a fantastic piece there around green energy and the whole energy token space. And here's the interesting thing. So I was having a chat with a financial institution, one of the world's largest investment banks. So they invited me to speak at the Asia Forum and annual forum and they have a very unique challenge. What they're saying is that some of our clients are high net worth individuals, ultra-high net worth individuals, but even some of our institutional customers are asking us how can we move a small part of our portfolio into cryptocurrencies, into Bitcoin, into Litecoin or whatever. Now, of course, they can't simply go and buy on some random exchange, right? And one thing that we evolved there is one way these financial institutions can participate in the token economy and help their customers also participate is, let's assume they set up an exchange in-house. So they have their own cryptocurrency exchange. They set up a trading desk which buys tokens for themselves but also for their customers on their own exchange and then they basically just tie in into a liquidity aggregator or to one of the regulated exchanges, either for example a coin in Japan or the Gibraltar blockchain exchange in Gibraltar and basically to facilitate liquidity and provide liquidity on their internal exchange. Now, once they have the exchange in-house, they can wrap risk, security, compliance and everything around that to ensure they're completely compliant. Now, is this the way to go ahead and is this like the future? No. But then today, if they need today and tomorrow, if they need to kind of help their customers move some of their portfolio or add cryptocurrencies into their portfolio, this is pretty much again what we evolved one of the most legit ways to do that. So again, very quickly just to share what we are doing. One thing that we built is a token sale platform that provides an administrative dashboard which helps any startup that's looking to raise money via an ICO, it gives them a simple elegant dashboard to kind of go and play to do their token sale. Again, you need a smart contract and everything that's lying underneath but then if you have a smart way to administer your token sale, it basically lets you kind of do it in a structured, elegant and organized way and of course, once the token sale is done, let's assume you're doing a DAO or a decentralized autonomous organization then it also helps you manage that going ahead, administer the DAO in a smart way. Last but not the least, we also have built an exchange which we call... We don't operate the exchange, we just have the software. So we built the software, it's called CryptET which we label as the world's most secure institutional-grade digital asset exchange. Again, this one came out of our conversations with a couple of investment banks which wanted to establish something like this in-house. So what they would do is use our software to set up the exchange internally. Of course, we take care of security, we wrap risk which means you've got your anti-money laundering kind of things, your KYC and stuff like that, wrap the exchange with that and then set up an internal trading desk that can comfortably trade on this now regulated exchange with liquidity coming in from either liquidity aggregators or regulated cryptocurrency exchanges out there. I'm going to leave it at that and take some questions because I thought we'll make this a little more interactive. Any questions, any thoughts? From a layman's point of view, I was looking at your timeline of 2017-2019. Like 2019, you were saying that... I mean, you imagined coffee shops and whatnot would take up and which would then mean that laymen like myself would be using the rich points to pay off for my coffee. I mean, is that something that's realistic for 2019? Okay, let me take a step. Let me answer that in two pieces but your last part that you mentioned, pay a coffee shop with Bitcoin. There are a couple of places that you can actually pay for coffee using Bitcoin, right? But what I meant is where these guys will start to have their own tokens. So they will move into tokenization. So you could have a coffee shop token that rather than having to carry money every day or carry some form, you just carry, you know, you have your ID and you use that to pay for your coffee, right? Even today, if you do have cards which you can preload money on and go and pay but that means that card has nothing to do with it. If I get your card, I can use that tomorrow, right? But if you have a cryptocurrency wallet or a digital token then you're identified, although you have an identity on the blockchain which by whatever form of identification can know it's you and then based on either the tokens you've accumulated or you bought or you have you can simply pay with that. And coming back to your point is, yes, that's when I see that happening because these guys are still in a wait and watch world, right? They're not the first to adopt a crypto, some technology like this. But like I said, some of them are jumping the gun like this project that I was talking about, Marine Chain which says, hey, we're moving, you can buy a vessel on the blockchain with cryptocurrencies, right? Fractional ownership. You can buy property by paying with cryptocurrencies. Like I said, Singapore Airlines piloted their frequent flyer miles on the blockchain which means now I have a wallet with some tokens in it and I can do a whole lot of things with the tokens now rather than just going to a catalog and trying to, you know, buy something that I don't even want there because I have no other way to use those tokens. Sorry, someone at the back, yeah. Thank you so much for the positive slides. I also have the same question about the real estate and the nature of the time that Agile mentioned, right? There is a side of, in the cryptocurrency world, they feel that the next couple of years or four years it's more of an infrastructure building because Bitcoin and only 7% of the cryptocurrency can do 15%, right? Absolutely. Correct. So one thing, remember, most of these... And so I was at a forum last time and someone asked me when will we see cryptocurrency or blockchain 3.0? And I was like, wait, wait, wait. We are not even at blockchain 1.0. So 3.0 is a long way off. So what you have is a very fast evolving technology. It's still very, very much in its infancy. So it's not even at 1.0, it's just emerging, right? Now you're starting to see certain blockchains that are out there that are, of course... The problem with Bitcoin and Ethereum as it is today, they use proof of work, which is absolutely not scalable. But Ethereum is already looking at moving to proof of stake and you have a whole lot of cryptocurrencies today that go beyond proof of stake and are much more powerful from a technology perspective as far as the blockchain is concerned, right? So you'll see that evolving. And in fact, so when I said that, they said, like, how do you see... So do you think that by, you know, 2019 you'll have a faster block? I was like, I don't know. Tomorrow you might have someone announce something that's, you know, thrice the speed or five times the speed, right? I know that there's been research going on and there are a couple of chains that are, you know, coming out. They're not, like, not yet released and things like that that match the Swift network and that can match the Visa and the Mastercard network because you need to get to that speed till coffee shops and things like that can start accepting these transactions, right? Now, if you have one coffee shop or you have a local coffee shop, find a local chain, five, six, seven. What about the global chains? What about the regional chains that are Pan-Asian or Pan-European? They've got thousands of shops that have people every morning, 9 a.m., ordering tons of coffee. So can the blockchain handle that? So, yes, it will need to evolve, but having said that, you're already seeing a whole lot of new blockchains that sway a long way from the proof of works and that can actually address some of the credit card networks that you have today in place. Yep? I think when you look at the popularization of cryptos, one of the perspectives that is not often presented is the fact that on the supply side, that it's the issuers, they can do whatever they want. You know, it's no different to issuing crypto vis-a-vis play money in like the monopoly here. Correct? But what is important is the demand side. So why would people want to for sale yet and have a whole pocket of different cryptos to use on a daily exchange buying coffee, buying lunch, you know? Good one. In terms of like, do we have a phone, software-based wallet or do we carry some kind of hardware wallet that will be universal? It seems to me the timeline of 2019 is very optimistic, but at the same time, whether it's optimistic or not, it doesn't look taking into account the demand side. Absolutely. Another very fundamental perspective is the fact that how, you know, consumers feel if your crypto exchange rate go up and down with the yoyo. I mean, there is a fundamental need for human perception to say, okay, the price of certain items is comparative between today and tomorrow. Do you keep on having to work in your mind, oh, is it like similar to what it was yesterday? Good point. Correct. And let me answer that in two parts. And that's why I completely agree with you. You've got to get institutions coming on board and that's why we are building institutional great exchanges and things like that. Because still you don't have the larger pool, the larger organizations come on board that stability is not going to come in just by a bunch of enthusiasts running something like you said, monopoly money, right? But here's the reason why there are a few very key features of this, right? I'm not advocating for Bitcoin or something, but today if I, let's say, probably not Singapore, but if I have the Malaysia, I have some Malaysian ring it and or I have the Vietnamese dong or the Korean, you know, the local currency. And I went to India, for example, there's no way they'll accept that. Now, suddenly Bitcoin is Bitcoin everywhere. Number one, right? So I don't have to really go to a money exchange every time. Yeah. Is the technology ready for something like that? I don't know. Number one, number two, if I travel a lot and I go to McDonald's in Singapore and I have to figure out how much does it cost in a Singapore dollar, then I go to another place in Vietnam and then now I have to calculate is, you know, what's the price and how is it? And so it takes care of a lot of that piece, right? So you have a kind of single denominator that you can actually pick things again. I'm not saying that, hey, you'll suddenly find fiat going away. No, I don't think so. But what I think will happen is the tokenization even of the fiat. So the underlying, so if you're using Bitcoin and let's say you need to pay for a $10 meal, you don't really divide the Bitcoin, divide it by the fiat and actually start to pay that out. That's all taken care underneath, by the underlying technology, right? It automatically calculates the exchange value, goes, it sells that little piece of Bitcoin for you, comes back and then pays the merchant. So that all is taken care. So, you know, from a user perspective, you don't have to worry about that, right? But what it allows you to do is the convenience. Number one, number two, it's a global registry. It's a decentralized open registry where, yeah, everything is recorded there. It's transparent and everyone can see, right? A number of other features, yeah. Just to share a couple here that address your point. Your point is that there can be a place of tokens or some kind of cryptocurrency to be kind of... Some form of exchange of value. Yeah, but my point is... We travel overseas these days very often and we carry our credit card and we just do the exchange automatically for it. And that's the next point. Do you know how much your credit card company charges you? American Express? I use American Express. I use the most fees and you lend. Very little, very little. Very, very little compared to that. Absolutely. So I know a couple of companies in Singapore that are also doing the remittance things and if you're using something like Western Union and things like that and if you're using two non-easily convertible currencies, the rate can be as high as close to double-digit even. If you're trying to exchange swap to non-easily convertible... Of course, doing US dollar versus Singapore dollar, the pip is very small. But try doing two non-convertible ones and it's large. Much larger. So yeah, efficiency. Actually, they charge you twice because the credit card charges you once and the bank charges you again. So it's a two-way charge. Yeah, but what's the hatred rate that will be on your bank? I think it's probably around 3%? On the exchanges? No, no, much lower, much lower. Lower than single digit. It's lower than 1%. Unless you're trying to do it OTC over the counter, then it's the wild wild west, whatever you pay. But yeah, otherwise no. Very low. So a number of these, and again it's not one or two of these, but a combination of these, right? The last but not the least is why would I want to swap out of a very stable fiat currency? There are lots of places in this world that barely have a fiat currency left, right? Places like Zimbabwe, you know what happened there to their currency. Places like Venezuela today, you know what's happening to their currency and they're trying, they're doing it the wrong way. They are trying to put it against the petrodollar. They've got fuel, so we'll sell. No, that's not the right way, but yeah, they're trying something, but there are places that could use this, right? In Singapore, we don't need that right away. There are benefits, but probably not that much, but there are a lot of places in the world that could definitely take us for something like this, a completely digital, easily swappable currency. So question, just so that I can get this conceptually straight. So Singapore Airlines is going to be issuing tokens, right? The tokenizing, they are frequent flyers. They are loyalty program. So does this mean that I can take Singapore or I could one day use my Singapore airline mouth to go and buy a cup of coffee? So here's the thing, and that's what needs to evolve, right? So tomorrow, if it's a token and it's on a public blockchain, I can go and swap it for a Bitcoin, I can go and swap it for a Litecoin, I can swap it for Ripple, and then I can go to any shop that accepts one of these currencies and just pay for that. Tomorrow, what you'll also see is wallets, right? Where you can have different types of cryptos or different type of currency inside it, and you simply go and you pay for it, and the wallet takes care. So what it does is at a very basic grassroots level, it takes your crypto, goes and sells it on the exchange at the prevailing rate, returns the fiat and transfers the fiat into the merchant's account. So the merchant really doesn't care because he gets his Singapore dollars or whatever he's looking for, right? What needs to happen is those tokens need to be swappable on an exchange somewhere. Then it could be any token, right? It could be a coffee shop token. It could even be, you know, your hawker center token for that matter. All you basically do is be able to swap, have the ability to swap that into something that's more accepted. So will this rely on Singapore Airlines' implicit promise to redeem these miles that have been traded at the exchange for airline seats? I don't have all the details on what Singapore Airlines is doing, but if they issued a token, for example, and that token is exchangeable on any exchange, forget the airline seat. I'll just go and swap them for Bitcoin or something. I'm just joking, but if it is easily tradable or for Starbucks coins, and then I just go and buy coffee. And if I want seats, of course, that's on their own system, right? But imagine if all the airlines do this and I have a few Singapore Airlines, a few in Cathay, a few in this, and I decide tomorrow I want to fly on VATJET. I just go and swap all those tokens on an exchange to buy VATJET tokens, and then redeem those tokens, VATJET tokens on VATJET Airlines for a ticket to Siebel, or wherever. So one thing that comes to mind is that frequent fly-miles are at present quite tightly controlled, right? I can't freely transfer it to other people without a lot of paperwork. Manually, yes, it's all... Yeah. So if these miles go onto the open exchange and then we have the next George Soros playing financial wizardry on these tokens. Yeah, but it has to make economic sense for him to do that, right? So what if somebody with one of these guys goes and picks up all the tokens, right? So, yeah, but it needs to make economic sense and if he does that, the only thing it'll do is drive the price of the token up. So whoever is still holding the token is ridiculously rich and can fly free for the rest of the year or whatever, right? So, yeah, that's possible. But then, again, there's a new kind of field emerging which is token economics or token economics, which kind of, you know, where you look at... So how do you manage this? How many tokens do you have in play and how many does the issuing... Remember, Singapore Airlines will continue to issue tokens to you, so it's not like they're stopping issuing, right? They will continue to issue every time you fly. So is he gonna keep just buying those out and then... Nah, I don't think so. Yeah. Because it almost seems like these entities will then have an added responsibility of being, say, a fractional reserve bank of some sorts because then they have to manage the value of the tokens that they issue so that it doesn't affect... Yeah, but usually after it becomes, you know, credibly large and it reaches a kind of... You have, you know, a decent volume and things like that and it's fairly liquid and it's spread around. So it's not just among 10 people every day. Thousands of people are flying. So thousands of people come into the ecosystem. It kind of... Market dynamics take over and it kind of falls in place. Yeah, but if somebody for some reason sees value in buying those tokens or wants to kind of, you know... Let's say I want to throw a birthday party on a Singapore airline A380 and I just want to rack up enough tokens to pay... At some stage it might be just cheaper to go and buy the seats, right? At a discounted price or something rather than try to ratchet up that many tokens from an open market, which will drive the price up. But remember, I'm the guy paying for all the high price, right? The people will happily liquidate at a higher price if you're getting a dollar for every point you have on Singapore Airlines, you'll liquidate now. So yeah, so I don't have the details of the program and how they're planning to do it. Is it within a closed system or is it more from a public system? But yeah, you will see these things emerge, right? Which allows me to use my airline miles in a coffee shop and vice versa only because there's a kind of intermediary that facilitates that swap. So, another quick question. Basically... Can we wrap up? I'm really sorry. Sorry, last question. No, I'm going to cut it off. We'll take that offline. Can he ask one? He just put it out there. It's okay, I'll get in touch with him. It's fine. I think we got it together. No worries. Great. Thank you so much, guys. I appreciate it. Before our last speaker, we give a round of applause to...