 All right, so five four three two one Hello everyone welcome to this episode of talk of the town. I'm James Milan and today I have I'm gonna get to talk to Barbara Thornton who is somebody I've spoken with before And a little bit later in the show will also bring in Joe Solomon for his particular perspective The topic at hand today is ADU's or accessory dwelling units which is a part of Arlington housing that has inspired a certain amount of controversy and and passion in the past And is once again a warrant article up for town meeting. We think we assume And we wanted to get a background both on ADU's here in Arlington going back a little ways and Generally speaking and then also what the specifics are about this particular warrant article and what that means For those who will be directly and indirectly affected When if and when it passes so as I mentioned before my guest is Barbara Thornton Barbara is a it's an Arlington resident and and an expert on these issues in many ways and a proponent of The this warrant article related to zoning and ADU's and I'm gonna let you actually Barbara first of all Thanks for being here. Of course. It's good to see you again Thank you, James. It's good to be here. Good. And let me just ask you to begin with just to Lay out in general to specific terms at your at your level of comfort What the contents of the warrant article that we're talking about is? well the First let me start with the excess the concept of accessory dwelling unit in accessory dwelling unit is a space in your house that is Has it's like a separate living space and it you could think of it as in the in the old days where you you might have had Somebody living in your house that was helping you with housekeeping or something now Families have become very Kind of limited in the number of people that typically are in the house And this is sort of a throwback to the way we lived more pre-World War two Where people were extended families were more likely to live in proximity with each other and so you would have parents who would buy a house and Then they would Have children and the children would live there the grandparents would get older the young children They would divide the house and they would live in separate parts of the house But together and help each other grandchildren knew their grandparents so that's the kind of Kind of return that we want it helps people it helps a wide variety of people. It's good for senior citizens who are Hoping to live independently as long as they can and want to age in place But they want to also have people nearby family members or other Caretakers nearby so you could have a you could build a house you can add an ad you and as you're younger and and more able you're renting out the ad you and as you get older and The ad you maybe is on the first floor you live in the ad you and you rented out to a family that's there That is able to take help take care of you. It's there for people with children that are And unable to live independently as they grow It's there for people who have children that that want to leave their bedroom there and Go off and get a job But they don't want to go too far and they can't afford to go too far in this economy So they can stay in there in the ad you have their own entrance have their own stove and Which is pretty much what defines an ad use is the ability to have your own cooking opportunities Yeah, let me ask let me just jump in Barbara first of all to thank you for Correctly kind of situating the beginning of our conversation not really in the specifics of this war an article But rather in you know in terms of a general introduction to what ad use are etc So you just mentioned what defines an ad you can you just go over? What are a few of the characteristics that? You know that that make an ad you and ad you Well the essentially it's really just a kitchen I mean if you if you have a working stove and a sink I think the rule is just actually a stove Then you have an ad you and you're not allowed to have that in Arlington today separately and and not allowed to rent it out separately So I think probably a lot of people do and a lot of people have that but but more people should because it's a it's a helpful way It's a helpful way to live for people who are homeowners and it's a helpful offering to the town Where we are so squeezed on housing and so squeezed on housing prices right now for renters One of the things that I found that was that was interesting I don't know how interesting other people might think it is but 34% of the people who live in Arlington live alone The average for the region is only 25% which still seems pretty high to me I think we think of And now this is gonna probably leave a lot of people cold But back in the Aussie and Harriet days where you lived in these Neighborhoods with two two parents and and two children and and everybody got along and grandparents were down the road and wait a minute That was television wasn't it? That was not yeah. Yeah. Sorry remember television first. I should have started there And we've we've gone away from that and more and more people are living alone And they're living in a small place as they can find and what often happens in Arlington is the Arlington has not built a lot of small apartments So you have apartments that are pretty good size and a lot of these people And this came out of the Broadway Corridor study that was done last year by MIT a lot of the people We're living alone in two-bedroom apartments because that's what Arlington has available. So we are actually Taking two-bedroom apartments off the market We are offering them to people who only really need a one-bedroom But they're paying a premium because they have to pay for the second bedroom that they didn't want to begin with so it's sort of a cockeyed Situation just in terms of how you might distribute housing in Arlington and they and as I said they both young people and old people of Grandparents living alone can move in with their their children and grandchildren and live in an ADU and have Privacy even grandparents Speaking as one I'll like privacy But like to be with their kids and their grandkids as well. So It's kind of harking back to a time Where people lived in more proximity with each other and I was interested reading in recent economists I think about two months ago of They were researching living patterns of living and changes as a result of the pandemic and they were Discovering that people really liked the idea of living in and what people have been called pods They liked living in more proximity with friends. They they like to live closer So I think we're gonna see a variety of new housing options come up but the one I'm most interested in is is Making accessory dwelling units an option for people in Arlington Yeah, and you had wondered whether people would be interested in that statistic you cited and I have to say I am floored to hear that a third fully a third of the population here in Arlington live by themselves Because I think you're right you you just have to travel the streets of Arlington to see that there are an awful lot of Residences that are clearly built for more than one person. So for many of those contain only one person Then you know, we need to use that space more efficiently, especially with the concerns everybody has about affordable housing here Yeah Let me ask you though. I had mentioned in the introduction that this Topic this this issue does seem to be somewhat of a hot button issue for an observer like myself over the years here in Arlington and I understand that you were in front of the the ARB last night and that it was a very long meeting and perhaps With with many strong emotions as is often the case Kind of kind of expressed and perhaps even around this issue. So let me ask you. What is the source? What is it that people are concerned about you've just laid out a number of reasons why This this an expansion of the ability to have ad use in people's homes Or on their properties would be a good thing So why is it that people have? You know such resistance to it I'll start with the super fit. Well, I'm going to call it superficial the superficial reason and then then I think a very real concern that people have I think Superficially, there's a there's a faction in town That believes that Arlington is way too dense and I want to get back to ask me to density about density in a minute It's way too dense. It shouldn't be any more dense. We shouldn't have more housing units what we There's there's got to be another way of taking care of our problems, but we don't want a lot of More density in Arlington. So so they see ad use as a way of Developing a lot more density and they think okay if you're going to add an ad you into your Your single-family home or or two-family home. It's a like if you have a duplex condos side by side Those would be eligible to each add an ad you as well So people are hearing that and they're sort of doing the quick mental math and they're saying my god My neighborhood is going to be filled with little attachments to all of these houses That are are filled to the brim with more people and it's going to be dense and the and the whole neighborhood is going to be full of ad use Which turns out not to be the case much to my I Think it's unfortunate, but The town of the city of Newton is an example Newton is further along by about 10 years Than than we are they've been doing ad use for a while And I talked to the building inspector in Newton recently and he and I asked him so how many and Newton is an interesting Measure because it's twice as big as Arlington so I Said so how many ad use do you have now that everybody understands them you have a process for it? They know what they're getting how many ad use do you have a newton a year said about 10? So I don't and I and that means that we should expect five I would like to expect 20 and I think that Arlington Should get to 20 but we we're so that fear of being overrun by additions into houses on houses that take up more space. I think is is Is not the case and in fact the the other thing that the Building inspector and Newton told me when I asked him because there are three There are three ways that you can add an ad you you can add an ad you within your existing building envelope you can add an ad you by extending your your building envelope kind of popping out of of Off a porch or something and adding a space or you can take your garage or your carriage house in the back And you can add an ad you there now all of these are Contingent on making sure you still meet the zoning requirements of Sideyard dimension backyard dimension and set property lines etc. So nobody's going to you know Be up against your house with it with their ad you but but they can add them as of right When I asked the Newton Inspector how many what kind of ad use were being added of those three categories? He said almost all of them are within the existing building envelope. You got you got a big old house which we have a lot of in Arlington and The people had three children the children are grown and gone so that leaves a four bedroom house with two people living in one bedroom and They're kicking around in a lot of space and they're saying you know The the high school is coming online that we're going to be paying the more taxes. They're living on a fixed income We could use a little extra money and it wouldn't wouldn't hurt to have somebody who could run errands for us occasionally and maybe you know Mow the yard etc. Why don't we rent this out? Oh? We could do an ad you we could take some of those bedrooms and turn one of them into a kitchen and use that extra bathroom and And we got it as long as as long as the building inspector Says that the life that the codes are being met the That's the requirement and you were mentioning that there was also another I think you said that the the density argument Superficial, but that there is another the other the other that I understand This sounds like major change I don't think it is going to be major change, but it sounds like a major change to people in Arlington and and when you're a homeowner and That is your major equity in your life and You think that there may be something at risk for that equity that and you're getting older You're worried you're is this gonna is this gonna reduce my property values, of course Arlington property values have been going through the roof I mean you can sit on your house for three years and and it's you know doubled in value But but there's still I think a very real concern that people have that a change is going to affect the only source of of Value of equity of long-term security that they have as they age to the end of their lives and I I I don't think that's going to happen, but I think that fear is born from this other sort of noise in the channel about People moving in and increased density and and the neighborhood going to the dogs During the neighborhood right Well, you know you have given us a really firm grounding in in in the issue here and a number of the different aspects of play But we are also lucky enough to have access today to Joe Solomon who can speak directly to this issue Joe, I am going to Just introduce you and leave it at that leave you to tell us about your own experience with ad use here in Arlington And at whatever pace you'd like let tell us your story You're you're muted right now Didn't want to disturb your prior conversation, but I actually grew up in Arlington my parents bought the house that we live in in 1981 I was born in 1982 and graduated from Arlington High class of 2000 went away to college Move back to East Boston Worked there for a while got married and My wife and I started having children we started thinking about you know raising two kids in a third story walk-up in East Boston might not be what we want to do and started looking around We talked to my mother about options of you know, maybe Moving back into the house that I grew up in and buying her a house and you know, Wuburn somewhere nearby or maybe a condo somewhere in Arlington and When you know, we we got into a bidding war on a condo in Arlington and just said this is this is ridiculous That that made us start thinking about well, what are the options to actually just expand the house? And we're fortunate enough that we live right on the edge of an R2 zone district We're close enough the mass ad that we're in in that little Band and I reached out to the the zoning department. They they mentioned the name of some attorneys who work on things like this and I started working with an attorney in town on the do this That was in I believe I have my notes August of 2017 So that was the beginning of working with withdrawing's in hand on How to get the town to approve this to build an addition where my mother could live and then my family could live in the existing house We you know had a handful of meetings with the the ZBA the zoning zoning board of appeals and They gave us approval in June of 2018 so August 2017 to June of 2018 To get the approval to build And at that point it was late enough in the construction season that we didn't start building until April of 2019 So if I think about it right, you know start to finish of the The process was a little over a year and a half and With an ADU by right, that's something where as I understand it, you know, you have the plans you go down to the Building office and you say here's my plans. I want to pull a permit and go so it would cut a year and a half out Just in terms of me getting to be with my kids and their grandmother in the same place So that that would have been a huge benefit at the time in addition going through this again As I mentioned, you know, you have to hire a lawyer and then you get surveyors and you know You make sure the building's in the right place And all of that has to be done before You actually get approval and in our case that that's you know money at risk, right? We could invest it all and they could say no and for our project that was almost ten thousand dollars so You know in the current state of doing things if if somebody wants to be able to provide housing for their grandparents in You know my personal case You know, you're you have to be willing to risk a significant amount of money and wait a significant amount of time Before you even can you know get the shovel in the ground so I speak And did you feel like you were You know that there was a lot of uncertainty built into that process in a number of different ways that also And you've already addressed, you know, at least one or two parts of that That would be, you know, kind of mitigated to a great degree by By by passage of this of this war an article where there are other, you know, other aspects of that that you want to You know speak to again as somebody who has experienced this and recently You know as a way of saying hey, this is this is what it feels like this is this is what could be saved for other people If this goes through Yeah, I mean in the ZBA, I think they they do a very good job trying to help people and give them guidance and say well, you know in this case here's what we would need to see you change for us to consider things but I mean that just that process alone of having to you know, invest that money up front and And to have no certainty about where you're gonna land is that's the big barrier I think and that you know, especially if you're to barbers point right the people doing it in my case You know, I work my wife works and this is what we're doing instead of buying a house So we're sort of on the the upswing of Investing in home ownership the barbers point a lot of the people that may be considering this are people who are on the other side right there they're at a level where They have a fixed income and they go to them and say well, you know scrape together another 10 grand and and maybe you'll be able to stay in your house and create this other Unit for your family or someone like that. That's you know, that's a big ask of somebody right and and you know, I Think having this sort of in-between option of I can go buy a house in Arlington Or I can leave the community because I just I don't understand the process and I don't want to risk that money having that in-between Option that's just very clear. It's aligned with the zoning practices. It's not building unsafe houses We have you know, wonderful new resources about you know, residential design guidelines that came out that can help You know your architect with stuff like that. It hits a sweet spot for a tremendous amount of people to remain in the community and in my case to create this, you know House of of long ago where you have three generations under one roof the impact the positive impact on us has been I Can't even explain it, right, you know with with COVID my mother was a School teacher for part of her career. So I can wake up in the morning I get my my kindergartner all set with breakfast and his morning meeting and he goes to my mother's from 9 to 12 and I I have access to an on-site teacher essentially, right? You know, it's my grandmother or his his grandmother And and then on the flip side, you know, there there's the cases where you know, my Three-year-old my daughter had a fever about a year and a half ago and my wife and I both wanted to go to the hospital with her now I can't bring my five my five year old with us, but I can leave him with her So both of us were able to go with her to the hospital be with her the whole time Well, you know, my mother fell down his stare the other day You know of not the other day a while ago and I was literally in the kitchen and I could see it So I was able to get to her within within seconds to help her out Right and these are all these intangible things that aren't aren't in the legislation They're they don't come up a lot when people have these discussions but these are the upsides of enabling people to create this type of a household and And to do it clearly in line with all the existing rules is is just it would really I think be a gift to people and it and I just speak from my personal experience of this being You know, obviously aside from the the cost of building. It's been nothing but but upside Yeah, and I appreciate the fact that you bring that perspective Not just of your own personal experience and of that of a young family Starting to get going into their first, you know housing, you know, that's going to be for a while, etc but also the fact that you mentioned and appreciate that The aspects of this legislation or this of this warrant article, excuse me That would have helped you to navigate that process much more smoothly and with less trepidation Also apply to people not in your situation at all Again, as you say Demographically in a wholly different Sector but nonetheless these of these these rules makes new rules would make sense for them as well Barbara if I can get back to you We've got just a few minutes, but I wanted to ask you specifically you had Mentioned I think before we went on camera that there was that there was the the most pre the most recent iteration of ad you Proposed legislation to town meeting was a couple of years ago in 2019 and that this current warrant article builds on that and improves on that and I wondered whether you might be able to cite a couple of ways in which you feel even better about The contents of this article than the one that very narrowly was defeated a couple of years ago Bups, you're muted also you guys are so polite First of all, I think that One of the things that we realized as we as we talked to the building inspector was that the building inspector is the Is this is the core of of of this process of ad use and The building inspector is the one who assures the safety, which is what you really want here and You you want to create a living environment that that fits within the zoning, but also fits Within the basic zoning of a single or two family But also keeps the people safe and is built in a way that will keep people safe and that's and the building inspector Was very much a part of our conversation as we developed this this article So we have a much better understanding of just how important he is and what he needs in order to make this Work well, and I can get to that a little late if we have time So in the other thing that we did was we heard people talk about the importance of affordable housing Now I can tell you that The fact that whatever Whatever it is that Joe is charging his mother for living in that house is Probably less than market rate for the quality of apartment and space that she has I'm not going to ask I'm just going to hypothesize But but even if there weren't that that kind of a mother-son relationship I think that you'll find that when you in when you have somebody in effect living in your house You you're not trying to to get as much money as you can off of me It's not a financial proposition and you want you want the money, but you want compatibility as well It's going to be below market for the most part and I can't I can't prove that right now But I think that that's going to be true, but that wasn't enough that wasn't good enough because I kept I kept hearing people say no we want Permanently affordable housing in Arlington and we need more permanently affordable housing in Arlington and ADUs aren't the answer to that and we couldn't twist it too much to make ADUs the answer to that but we have a little loophole and that is that while ADUs have to be The the the owner has to certify that as they build an ADU that they're going to live on the property the We we made an exception that if it's a non-profit organization That's in the housing business. They don't have to live on the property and they can add an ADU to their their Existing buildings So for example in Arlington the Housing Corporation of Arlington or the Arlington Housing Authority could build an ADU on to existing Property and as Pam Hallett who was the head of the Housing Corporation of Arlington said last night at the public hearing It's it cost her five five seven hundred thousand dollars to contemplate building a unit of of new housing If she can add an ADU for a hundred thousand dollars She's she's on it, you know And then it becomes permanently affordable housing for Arlington. I also think we've done Tried to pay more attention to neighbors and neighborhoods and when we when it came to parking parking is big issue growing issue in Arlington and we said yeah, you can build an ADU but We're not going to require you to add to pave over land or cut down trees you have to If you have the parking, that's fine. You can have an ADU, but you can't offer We're not gonna make you have parking on top of it Which means that if people have an ADU they either have parking space on there on their site because there's no off-street parking I mean, there's no on-street parking overnight or They They don't have cars they don't drive and more and more people don't drive So so I think there's those were all examples of improvements that I think we've done Well, that's great, and you know what I know I know and I'm sure you both feel that this conversation could be extended much longer, and we don't have time. I'm afraid so I am going to Thank you both and say goodbye Joe congratulations on navigating the process and You know, here's to those who will do so in the future. Hopefully in a much easier way Thanks, though for your story well told and Barbara, of course, thanks to you for explaining This issue in sufficient detail that I think and hope that those in our audience will Will be leaving with a better understanding and a better feel For both the warrant article itself and ADU the value of ADUs in general This has been talk of the town I've been speaking with Barbara Thornton and with Joe Solomon I'm James Milan appreciate you being here, and we will see you next time All right. Sorry that you know