 All right, you're going to make me talk on this thing, huh? So who am I? 26 years in the Air Force, navigator, pilot, got out, became a bureaucrat. That's what I am now, a government bureaucrat. I'm a Fed. Been doing that about 13, almost 14 years. Two different jobs. One, in the Secretary of Defense, where I was the Chief Training Officer, mostly at training, but some education too, now in the Navy as a Deputy Director for Exhibitionary Warfare. So that's me. So I just got my doctorate in education from the University of Pennsylvania. And the talk that you're going to hear is my dissertation, which I did, spent about four years researching it. Came here four times, went to Schmucon twice, interviewed a lot of people. We'll talk a little bit about that. And so my status here is not as a Fed but as an independent researcher. So what did I research? It's kind of a weird phenomenon. I looked at guys like Kevin Mitnick and Paulson and Zatko. Anybody know Peter Zatko, Mudge? And Raymond, ESR, right? Anybody know him? Yeah, interesting guy, man. The only one on that list that I've met is Peter Mudge. Interesting guy. He was the head of DARPA Cyber Projects. When I met him, he was on his way out. And I asked him, dude, give me your feelings about where the hell United States of America is on cybersecurity. It wasn't a good story. And a lot of that conversation really motivated me to do this research. What these people have done is they've transitioned from a hacker community of practice to an institutional or corporate or government side of the house. So Peter worked for DARPA. How many of you have seen the picture of Mudge sitting in front of Congress with his long hair? Yeah, look it up sometime. He also was a consultant to President Clinton so that's how early he goes back. Midnicks spent five years in prison for hacking. At one point, the world's most wanted hacker now owns a successful cybersecurity consulting company, Poulsen. Same kind of deal except he didn't spend as much time in jail, but now is a prize award-winning journalist for cybersecurity magazines. Zacko actually is doing basically the good housekeeping seal of approval for IoT now. That's what he's doing. And Raymond, he's somewhere in Pennsylvania. But I was curious. It's like, how do they do that? And why did they do it? And then what can we learn from that? So that's kind of what the talk's about. So I'm going to throw out some definitions. I'm going to geek out for you just a little bit on academic stuff. So I'll try not to put you to sleep. Let's see if I can do. See if, of course, I guess that'll work. Yeah. So what's a community hacker? That's someone that can change who they are and move back and forth between those two communities we talked about. I did not come up with that word they did. Habitus, that's a friggin' interesting word. Came up with by a guy named Pierre Pourdoux. He was the son of a peasant male worker and rose to lead the most prestigious education institution in France. Very interesting guy. In some ways, he's a chameleon, too, except he got caught in the middle. Never could be accepted on either side. But habitus is really about, so when I look around the room, it's how you dress. It's how you act. It's how you walk. It's how you talk. It's your body shape. It's everything about you. And most of it is subconscious. You do it without thinking about it. The next time you go out and walk around out there, just take a good, quick look at how people are walking. Most people walk differently than others. I mean, it's just different. There's a unique way in which they walk. Why? That is a learned behavior, and it comes from something that Pierre Pourdoux called habitus. Reflexive or reflexivity. That's the ability to access your subconscious and your conscious and change who you are. It's the key to being a chameleon. Code switching. I did not come up with that term. That is a term that my respondents came up with that I interviewed. It's the skill I'm talking about. It's that ability to do that transition back and forth. And it's a tradecraft. In fact, when I've talked to people, if you're an undercover cop, if you're in the CIA and you're doing deep cover, some of the things I'm going to talk about are exactly what code switching is all about. So who did I study? I started with one person, then I snowballed, and I ended up with about 37 people. All of them had these things. How many of you did start, and were interested in computers at the age between 4 and 12? How many of you? Yeah, interesting. Interesting, right? And you were doing some pretty advanced stuff at that young age, too. Most of the ones I talked to were doing pretty advanced things. A lot of them, in fact, most of them have competed at the national, international level. So these are not slouches. And if I were to tell you the names of the people that I interviewed, you would at least recognize over half of them. And they go from deep, deep involvement in the dark web to name companies that, I mean, they're like institutions as far as computers and technology are concerned, software. And then the last one was kind of interesting, which is a start at some of the attributes I'll talk about. But really enjoyed taking puzzles apart when they were kids and doing puzzles. And they have something I call task completion resiliency, but we'll talk a little bit about what that is. But they will work at a job until it's complete. They won't eat, they won't sleep, won't do anything, until it's done. How many of you have experienced that? Yeah. So what I'm going to talk about next is I had to first understand who they were and what their soft skills were before I could understand the other parts of it. So I'm going to cover really quickly the seven core habits, hackers, attributes. And what these attributes are is, again, if you remember what habits is, it's in you. Some of it's learned, some of it you don't know how you learned it, but it's done over a long period of time. So the first one is they're self-directed learners, extreme self-directed learners. So in a way, it's not just about computers. How many of you have other academic interests other than computers? Yeah. Coffee, beer, cars. What else? Give me some more. Woodworking, whiskey, books. Yeah. And how many of you consider yourself an expert in that, in those things? You'll go until you're done, man. So the next one is passionate curiosity for how things work. So that goes back to that puzzle thing. So how many of you take things apart to see how they work? Yeah. And that's hardware and software, right? How many did that when they were kids? How many did that and then put it back together? How many of you had your parents yell at you for doing that? Tenacity would work forever. That's a quote from one of my respondents. The guy said, dude, I will work forever on a project until I complete it. Most human beings don't have that kind of staying power. It's an interesting attribute and relatively rare. If you want to talk afterwards, I can talk to you a little bit about some of the reasons for that. Breaking something to earn symbolic capital. So that's fancy academic words for I'm a breaker slash hacker, but why do I do it? Is it about you? Well, the people I interviewed said it was not about them. It was about proving to others. It was about earning, respect, prestige, recognition. It was not about them. And you can see some of the reasons they have up there. It's also a war. A lot of them talked about a war with the institution, proving to them that they were smarter than the institution and better. That they found things that they didn't see. There is some validation of self-worth, but that really, again, is not self-awarded. It's awarded by others. And then breaking it because it's there. There's at least one person at this conference. He's a pretty famous guy. You might know him. I won't say his name. But he's on the record saying, why are you a hacker? And he said, because it's there. That's what his answer was. And then there's builders. So not everyone's a breaker. There's a lot of builders out there. And you can see some of the reasons for that. Again, it's still to earn symbolic capital, but it's to build things. And I've got two examples that I'll talk about here in a second. And so a high degree of process orientation, right? So I asked you, how many of you were process-oriented? What does that, did anybody know what that means? You're mostly an engineer. You do things pretty much by the book in a certain order, and you're good at keeping track of those processes. And the last one is, I've always questioned the status quo. So how many of you question the status quo? Do you know what I'm going to say that? Like, why the hell is it that way? So that's high levels. Normally, the person that does that has high levels of risk tolerance. But the interesting thing is, and this is what's very unique about the population in this room and the population I interviewed, is that you don't normally find someone who has a high tolerance for risk and question the status quo, but also has an extreme sense of detail and process orientation. Someone who follows the process is normally called a brown-noser, and they follow the rules, and they don't break them. So the cool thing about these soft skills is it's a very unique individual that has these things on both ends of the personality spectrum. So breaking it because it's there, I'm going to talk just a little bit about the breaking part. We'll start with, who said that, right? Well, it was right up there on the board. Everybody know who he is? So George Mallory, I'm going to bring this up, too. So that's the original 1923 New York Times article where he was quoted when he was asked, why are you climbing Mount Everest? And he said, because it's there. George Mallory was a World War I veteran. He saw a lot of crap in the trenches in war. And he kind of lost his way. Most of the people that he knew were killed. And when he came back to England, he didn't know who he was. So he became a Mountaineer. That quote up there is what he said after because it's there. And I want to read it to you, but just take a look at what he said. Interesting thought. The quote below it is what's front of my respondents. This guy's not a slouch. He won the Turing Award, if you know what that is. That's what he said. He says it's not about solving the problem. It's about identifying yourself in the world. And if you think about George Mallory, that's what he was doing. He'd lost his way and he was like, OK, man, I'm going to find myself in the world. The interesting thing is he supposedly got to the summit, died on the ascent, or actually on the descent. And I think it was another 30 or 40 years before actually someone got to the top successfully. So an interesting guy. They just found his body. I think it was in the mid-90s. OK, building. This is interesting thought. So continuing with the Mount Everest theme. A lot of you build, right? This is one example of one of the people I interviewed, why they said they build. So it is about being the first person ever to be there. You could also talk about breaking. You can be the first person ever to break something. No one else in the world has been able to do it. You were able to do it. The interesting thing is once you achieve it, you now have leveled the playing field for everyone else. So when you look at Mallory climbing the Mount Everest, no one could get there. And now if you practice and train enough, a lot of people can get to the top. So it's about social capital. And I talked a little bit about it. So you can see what that's about. And social capital cannot be given to yourself. It can only be given by others. So now that we've got the soft skill stuff done, I want to talk a little bit about how these folks do code switching. And it is a trade craft. One of the interesting things that the theory says is that you can't access your subconscious. You can't change the way you walk or talk. And if you do, it's over a long period of time. And it's normally at the result of some significant event in your life. But what I saw in the people that I interviewed was that they were able to do it pretty easily. We'll talk about how they did that. Most of them in 10 to 12 hours could make that transformation. The thing that I just brought up is some of the reasons why. And it wasn't just about going to corporate infosec. It was coming the other way, too. So reintegrating yourself into the hacker community practice was another reason. So it wasn't just about moving from hacking to corporate. It was fitting in in the hacker community practice, too. And it was also used to get into what they called the zone, which was when they were going to hack something or build something. Same processes. If I don't talk about it, remind me. But you know, like, well, I will do it now. So some of the things that they talked about were martial arts. Mostly the mental part of martial arts that allowed you to control your mind. Using music, for example. Getting into a quiet place where it's dark. Those are the kinds of things that they did. So the six phases of community and hacking code switching. So there's six phases. Those of you that do this are going to see, are going to recognize some of these phases. All you should recognize are all six of them. So what I'm going to talk about is how they hacked the socialization incident. What they did to move back and forth. So does anybody recognize that first step? What is that? Yeah. So they contextualized the way in which they hacked the social episode in the same way that they hacked a technical thing. Except if you read the list, look at what they're looking at. So who's in a position of influence or leadership? Who's in their family? Their children? Their personal lives? Everything. What's important to them? What have they said on social media about their opinions? Are they a member of a political group? What are those political positions? Do they have any tragedies in their lives? So it's a complete reconnaissance of the people in the organization who you're trying to influence. You need to do passive recon. So it says, always watching, always listening, but also always imitating. And don't be creepy. So that's phase one. Phase two. Does anyone recognize that? It's phase. Sir. Want me to go back? Yeah. Yeah. Who said that? You're absolutely right. Who said that's what salespeople do? Absolutely. That's what they do. They are mostly creepy. We'll talk about how to not be creepy. But the question is, the point is, if you're obvious about it, you suck. All right, so you don't want to suck. So scanning and establishing a foothold. Does that one sound familiar to you? That's step two in the five phase of a hack. But put in the context of a social hack. So here, maybe you ask for a one-on-one office call. Maybe you ask for a mentoring opportunity. Maybe you talk to people that know this person and say, what do you know about them? And then the last one is really important. Remember, if they're talking to you about them, they'll certainly talk about you to others. So that's phase two. Phase three. Again, you should recognize that one. So this is really about the topic that you engage the key leader with. Is it something important to the company? Is it something important to him or her? In the first step of your research, you looked at things that that person was interested in. And so now you engage in something that is near and dear to that person's heart, either professionally or emotionally or personal. And what you're trying to do there is win some of that symbolic capital, some of that social capital. Again, you're trying to meet as much as that person as you can so they see your face, they know who you are. Calendar invites. So force the engagement, like you'll say, yeah, yeah, come out of my office. And then go to that person's secretary and get on their calendar. Force that engagement. That's what that last one was about. But don't prove force it, okay? That one should also look familiar. So make yourself more in demand. Deliver on what you promised. Again, most business people, most jobs. I mean, does this sound unusual to you? No. How many of us actually pursue it? Actually do it. Got engaged in self-promotion, but don't be too obvious about it. And then move laterally. So find out who influences that person. Who is their friend? Who do they trust? Just the way you do it in a computer. You need to move laterally in the social organization and then become a trusted agent for them. And the other thing I would say that's not on here is you need someone to watch your back. Someone that you trust. Someone that can tell you what's going on inside, inside the office space that you don't have access to. Or someone that can say, dude, there's trouble coming. So make sure you have someone watching your back and giving you feedback on your tradecraft. Cover your tracks. Don't want to get caught doing that, right? You shouldn't have to cover your tracks if you've done it right, but you do need to be careful, right? Because if you get caught, you're done. It is a threaded effort through all five phases and you don't want to burn any relationships when you leave. So when you move back to the hacker community, you don't want to burn any bridges. And then the last phase, document and research. So that's actually part of pen testing, right? So what do you find out? Write it down. Diagram it out. Again, a person that you would probably know here is exactly what he does when he moves back and forth between the hacker community and the corporate side. And by the way, do not leave it anywhere where someone can find it. So disconnect, lock it up, encrypt it. Only you have access to that information. All right, so that's, those are the six phases. You go like, all right, well, what's the big deal? We all know it. Some of us practice it at different degrees, but what's the difference? What were these code switchers doing that I thought was different than most people? So I'll use my fancy academic term. So they used metacognition. How many people know what metacognition is? Do you want to, do you want to give us a definition? Do you want me to, thinking about thinking? That's right. So I'll give you an example. Metacognition normally involves three conversations with your, with yourself. The first one is the one that you're having with the person you're talking to. The second one is kind of in near real time, analyzing how that person is responding to what you're having a conversation with them about. So I've been looking at all of you. Some of you are interested. Some of you are sort of interested. Some of you don't know what the hell to think about it. Right? So the second conversation is, and that's the empathy part. I'm reading your, I'm constantly reading your body language. I'm constantly looking how my words are landing. I'm constantly analyzing. Am I communicating with that person? Are they in receive? Or have they shut the frigging, or raised the squelch up to the point they can't hear me? That's conversation number two. But there's a third conversation. That third conversation is outside of those two conversations. And you're asking yourself, why do I believe my strategy is right? What am I doing the right thing between in this two-way conversation, in the first two phases? So you're constantly asking yourself, standing outside, I envisioned it, and I do it. I mean, it's like, you're just kind of outside looking at the conversation that's happening. So it's an out-of-body kind of thinking about what's going on here. How many of us ask, why do I believe things that I do? How many of us ask that question? Why do I believe what I believe? That's a metacognitive thought. Most people just say, I believe it. That's what I believe in. But no one says, well, why do I believe that? That's metacognition. And that's one of the things that you need to be successful to pull it off. If you're not analyzing those three-way conversations, you're gonna come across a little bit ungenuine. And you have to have that empathetic thing because you have to, on the fly, be able to correct if you say something wrong. So that's the first kind of tradecraft difference. The second one is you never come out of character, ever, with anyone, and you convince yourself that you are who you say you are. So there's no doubt inside of you that says, I'm not that person. It's hard to do. I'll give you, I got an example of one where I did that. So can you do that? And by the way, if you've drawn it before, most of you will realize that it takes a whole hell of a lot of energy to do that. Most of the people I talked to when they were done code switching and went home for the day where they could let their guard down were exhausted because it requires a high level of self-awareness and understanding of your environment 24-7. It's not easy to do. And then the last thing is this metamorphosis period. So it's not just, you can't turn it on and off. You gotta take some time to do it. Most people said it took them 10 to 12 hours to do it. So there's me, my different roles. This one up here? I'm a trainer, right? So I dressed up like that guy. We were doing key leader, I don't know what a key leader engagement is in military. So we were talking to some Afghan official. And the trainer was, the trainee was supposed to be interfacing with the key leader. And I kept coming in and out of the room and handing the key leader a piece of paper and interrupting the interviewer, right? So much so that even the instructor who did not recognize me told me to stop interrupting me. And then afterwards I walked in the room and I took this shit off and I said, does anybody recognize me? And they're like, no. I go, well, I was the guy that was pissing you off when you were interviewing the key leader. And you had no awareness that someone was coming in the room while you were talking to that key leader. Could have been a bad guy. This guy right here, the guy that's laughing. Pakistan Air Force Colonel. My counterpart when I was in Pakistan told me, I don't know why I like you, but I do. Think about that. I don't know why I like you, but I do. Why? Because I, in my heart, said, I'm gonna go to this freaking deployment and I'm gonna like the people I'm working with. Even if, maybe I don't. He said, I don't know why I like you, but I do. Oh yeah, that's me in a truck. Go to the private pass. We told the guard that we were Danish. Because Americans weren't allowed in private pass. Okay. So what does all this mean? How are we doing on timing? So I wanna have a discussion with you guys. I've talked enough. How are we doing? A minute or a minute. How much? Okay, so I wanna have a discussion now with you guys and say, if you think this is all BS, I'm happy. I'll take it. If you think there's something to it, tell me that. So here's the question. Is it deception or the true nature of socialization? Are we ever who we say we are? Thoughts? Sir. I see it as true nature, but I think sometimes on the other side, they see it as a feeling that happens when you're talking to them. What do they, how do they receive themselves? Yeah, so that's an interesting question. So I won't go to the slide because it's a geek out slide. Yeah, so what he said was, did the people that were doing code switching, the Chameleon Hackers, did they know who they were? Or were they lost in space somewhere? Is that a nice summation? What else did you ask? I'm always putting on this front. Yeah. Or thing. Yeah. So one of the people I interviewed said, they have a core that doesn't change. I'm not sure I totally believe that. But they said, look, we have a core. So that 10 to 12 hour period is you're doing an external change of who you are, but you're maintaining the core. So they spin in, so before they go into the socialization episode, they spin into the behavior. They act the way they need to inside the organization. And when it's time to leave, they spin out. So they actually de-evolve the things that they added to their personality back to their core. This person said they always stayed centered. This was one in particular, one that was very, very good at it. That they never allowed themselves to get moved left or right of their core. Okay. I'm not sure that's normal human behavior, but that's what this person said. So they said, most of them said they knew who they were in the core. And all of it was a facade. Sir. Yeah. It's a great question. So what he asked was, were they faking what they were doing? And what else did you say? Oh, yeah, a psychological pathology. So I would say, so he asked if they're better at it than the rest of us. And if they're all, was it psychological? The interesting thing is, when I look around here, there's a high percentage of people, more, I think, than in the population that are in this community that do that. I mean, that's the anecdote. I don't have good research statistics on that. But anecdotally, as I look around, I'd say, yeah, there is a high percentage. There is. Yeah. Well, this is why I talked a little bit about George Mallory. And did he know who he was? If you look at his life, particularly after World War I, not sure that he did. And he didn't exactly know where he fit in society more either. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a compartmentalization of maybe things that happened to you when you were young. I'm not a psychologist. I wrote my dissertation on social science, so I'm not a psychologist. But what I'm talking about is the social science part of the research. Anybody else? Sir? Yeah. Yeah. But you have to kind of know to do that. I mean, not everyone knows to do that. Yeah. Me, I have to work at it. It's not something that I just do naturally. The first time I met that colonel, dude, I was like on pins and needles, aware of everything, every interaction, everything that I was saying to him and how he was reacting to it. And when I got done with it, it was like, holy shit. So no, that did not come easily for me. Who else? Sir? Yep? Yep. Absolutely. That's why I called it tradecraft. It's definitely part of an intelligence tradecraft toolkit. Definitely. But it's being done in society, which is a really interesting thought. Sir? Yeah? Yeah, then that's why, so in my dissertation, I talked about that more research was needed on that core part. Because they argued, the core didn't change. I mean, I will show you the little geeky, I think I got the little geeky diagram. So that's the little geeky diagram that you can't read, but it'll be, so that's the grounded theory model. Anybody know what grounded theory is? So you use grounded theory when you don't have a theory about something and you just like, okay, well what did the data tell me? So that's the wind in, wind out process. So you can see the inner, that red box grows, which is the habits that they add to the personality. You see that blue box, these constants throughout. And then when they exit on the right hand side, they're back to the blue box. And then a chain of socialization. So if you think about your life, it's a chain of these socialization episodes over time. You spin in, you spin out, you spin in, you spin out, you spin in, you spin out. The interesting thing is socialization theory, and I'm gonna geek out in just for a second, never look at the chain. It only looked at you go into an organization and what is the process for you to be, from an out for you to become from being an outsider to an insider. But it never said, well dude, that's not actually the way it works. You move around, when you move around, you actually experience socialization like this and not as a single episode. So I'll get off the geek now, I'll go back to that. Okay, sir. Mostly at home I think, by themselves. I mean, I gotta be careful because I wanna protect the identity of these people, but one of them, this is the ultimate chameleon, right? This person, I interviewed them. They said there were one thing. At the end of the interview I said, is there something that I didn't ask you that I should have? And the person said, I used to be a different sex. The ultimate chameleon. So they were one sex and they moved to the other sex. And they didn't really talk much about their past experiences on the other side. But they used it to their advantage so they could surprise people with certain tones of voice. They came out of something that other people weren't expecting, so it was a controlled device for this person. It was a really interesting interview. Probably one of the better ones that I had. Because there's the ultimate chameleon, man. Not only did they talk about the internal social part, but they actually physically did something about their external look. What else? It's social engineering, right? That is what we're talking about here. I never used that term, but it is extreme form of social engineering. Yeah, that's why I used the five phase of the hack. And it wasn't just me. I mean, several of my interviewees, when they described the process, used that five phases of a hack to structure their conversation with me about how they did it. So how can we train someone to do that? I'll go back to ESR's comment about martial arts. There were a couple of other interviewees that I talked about that I talked to that used martial arts to focus their mental thoughts. Makes sense. And then that's just that awareness, that awareness that there is a subconscious and you can do something about it. And then how to avoid getting caught? That's what I talked about. You gotta believe it in your heart. If you don't believe it, you're gonna get caught. So I think I'm on just about done. So last thought, the literature actually talks about this. So we have such access to information that we're being told repeatedly over all different kinds of media. This is the way you need to be. This is the way you need to act. This is the way you need to dress. Think about it. In the last five years, it's ridiculous how media has hammered and hammered and hammered at us. And so the literature actually talks about the fact that our exposure to this kind of media, the one that tells you how you should act, how you should be, how you should say that it actually is starting to bring out some of these skill sets across the population. It's more not the natural people, but you actually are being programmed based on your exposure to the media. Some of it's conscious, some of it's subconscious. So the literature actually talks about that, which then is increasing the ability for you to manipulate your habits because it's being done to you and now you've kind of worn that computer path, worn that electrical path. So it's open. So now you can do other things with it. Just a thought. But it's one of the things that I wanna do some more research in. So that's all I got. Any other questions? Yes, sir. Yeah. I mean, as I learned, because I did ground a theory, right? So I didn't know what the hell I was getting into. But as I talked to more and more of them, I was like, oh. And some of it I think was, and one of them actually said to me, I reserve the right to make myself more sexy and better looking than I really am. He said that to me. I'm like, oh, okay. So yeah, I would say that, like all of us, I mean, we always like to embellish the story a little bit. So I think there was some of it, not a lot, but enough that it was noticeable. What else? Sorry. Yeah. Yeah, a couple of them. And most of the time it was, most of the time it was the introverts, which, and if you know anything about introversion, right, you need to be by yourself to recharge. So if you're always had to be someone else in a socialization episode, then it wears on your energy over time. So most of the people that I saw that maybe had a little problem with it were people that were, by nature, to me, appeared to be introverts. Sorry. Maybe. I will tell you that some people that said, oh, I wanna talk to you for half an hour, ended up talking to me for two. I mean, it was amazing when I went down with the questions. And as a good interviewer, you do mostly, you don't interact, you just listen. So I mean, I had one interview that went for six hours. I had a lot to say. Sorry. Other peers? Didn't really talk to them much about that. But I think they know. Yeah, I would also tell you that some of them thought they were better at it than they really were. I can tell you that for sure. They're like, yeah, okay, you got this down. Now, not as good as you think you do. Sorry. Yeah, so you mean the ease at which it takes for you to go through that transformation, that transaction, right? Yeah, so that's a great question. So I'll summarize and tell you, again, it was about symbolic and social capital. There was a little bit of economic capital in there too, right? So you can hack and always look over your shoulder and take from others and maybe go to jail or you can take those same skills and go, hey, if I take them over there, I can get paid to do that. I mean, if you actually look at some of the folks, that's what it was. It started with economic capital, but then it was also about prestige. It was also about recognition. It was also about coming from a counterculture and then trying to fit in in this other one and saying, I'm just as good as you are, if not better. So I will tell you, it was less about economic capital, more about that need for symbolic capital, more about that need to validate their self-worth but have it done externally. So I think I got to stop, right? I'm getting a hug, is that right, me? Well, I can't do more math. Okay, but that's what, but in the end, it was really about that symbolic and social capital, the need for that. I mean, I didn't get a lot into their childhood, but most of the people I talked to had some had a fairly good childhood, but most did not. Most grew up in a rural environment. Most were bored out of their minds and the computer was a release. Most of them had broken homes, a lot of them had broken homes and found themselves on the dark side and then figured out how to get out of there. Anything else? I got the impression that they did believe that when they were in the role, they did believe. I mean, that's kind of where I came, that's where I got the duty. If you don't believe in your heart, not gonna work. I don't know, they seemed a little strange when they were out of the role to me. They still could, it seemed like they didn't quite let go all the way. That's what it seemed like to me. Unless you got deep into a conversation and then you learned a lot of really interesting things about them. You know, one of them said that he was made fun of as a kid by all the jocks, but when he was hacking, he was like God because nobody could see who he was, nobody could see his face, his body, whatever. They were only analyzing and looking at his intellectual capabilities. Anything else? Okay, thanks very much, appreciate it.