 my ordering of the thoughts. And there's no merit in becoming detached from form. I mean, you really can't. You can't really become detached from form. You can only become detached from ordering thoughts. And then it may appear that there's no attachment to form. How do you become detached from the ordering of thoughts? So that's the next question to address. I think it's starting to notice where the ordering is going on that I am ordering. And just to start to question and examine the ordering and does it serve me. And with the, looking at the metaphysical underpinnings of that and recognizing through that that it doesn't bring me what I wanted to bring me and what I thought it was bringing me. You know, I thought it was bringing me peace and joy and happiness and salvation. But actually the judgment, the ordering of thoughts, brings me nothing but pain and misery and hurt. You were starting to address a couple of different times today. Getting down to the deeper levels of purpose and use. And I feel like that's real appropriate here. Also to piggyback on what you were just saying about the ordering of thoughts. The mind has a choice and that is to forgive or to judge. It really is that simple. As Beverly was just saying to the deceived mind the judgment seems to offer something. Because if I fail to forgive I need to put my faith in something. In judgment the ego continually is saying and their judgment brings you something. It's brought you nice things. You've learned, you've been educated. That's what your whole education and maturity in life to become a mature adult is to become better and better with your judgment. So you know the things to pursue and the things to avoid. So it really seems to have brought something, a value. And we're starting to get to the point where as Beverly was saying it has not brought anything except pain and misery although it has seemed to bring something. The deceived mind in its desperate attempt to bring order in organization to the chaos resorts to this whole system of ordering thoughts. And according to that then it wants everything that it sees to fit very neatly into the boxes, the definitions the pictures that it has made up to try to keep things in some kind of manageable system. And so when things seem to be fitting in those neat little boxes then it seems like life is a bowl of cherries. But yeah and then maybe it'll get boring but when it doesn't seem like things are fitting into these boxes these pictures, these definitions that are to my liking that's when you know it's bad news. Or at least the very least disorienting is what I sense Mary saying she's getting very disoriented because she started to question the boxes. And the forgiveness really is to recognize that these boxes that I have made up are not real. It's not the truth. It's something I have made up. And when I can start really looking at different boxes, different concepts, different definitions that I hold and recognizing that I made them up and I made up a whole system to support it in the sense that I made it up so that everybody I know agrees with me on it. It's very convincing the way I've constructed this whole thing. It's more of my roots that believe in it. The thing about too forgiveness complete forgiveness is the atonement and the atonement is a total commitment. That is very very frightening and fearful to the deceived mind. Just think of the things I know when I first was getting ready to commit to going to college commitment with a relationship. I mean, that's quite a thing. You've heard all the stories of people getting cold feet and all the nausea and everything on the day of the wedding. Just thinking of the thoughts, what am I committing to here? What these vows till death do we part? What if, you know, on and on and on? And those are just, in a sense, till death do we part. You can see they're all commitments that involve time and linearity and so on so forth. And the atonement is a total commitment. And it seems to the deceived mind that to accept the atonement, obviously, it senses that it's a total mind overhaul. It is a complete, absolute overhaul of every thought and belief. And to deceive mind, it just seems easier. Total commitment, complete mind overhaul. On the one hand, judgment. On the other, how everybody else judges. It seems easier to just fall into that life is suffering. We're coming here. We just do the best we can. Yes, we judge. Everyone judges. We're ups and downs. That's what life's all about. And I know how to judge. I'm pretty good at that. You know, I'm pretty familiar with that. I mean, this mind overhaul business, how do you do that? What's that like? Who's doing that? Who do I look to? You know, where's the handbook? Where's the instruction manual on that? Well, I think we've got one. And here we are with that thing. And all of experience in this world has indicated peace is not constant pain, conflict, upset and everything. To me, it just gets clear and clear that these are the alternatives. The section in the course is the real alternative. That all of these thoughts and all of these judgments and everything have led me down empty roads. None of them has ever brought me that. If it just gets clear and clear and clear in my mind, then I can see, I can grasp that real alternative. I look for witnesses in the world to that real alternative in the sense that every encounter, I'm not going to pay attention to what the person says, what they do, you know, how they look or whatever. My intention is to be at one with them. And if that's my intention and my mind is that powerful, how can it be anything different? It just comes back to that really being clear of purpose and intention. I have to really sort these, have the Holy Spirit sort these two purposes out in my mind. And that's what we do when we come together. We spent that one time going into the attraction of guilt, which was, you know, I'm sure things got stirred up after that. You know, and you've been real candid sharing the things that have come up in dreams. And most of you have had dreams, you know, where things have been happening, that the way things are happening is not good. There's an uncomfortable feeling or whatever. But just taking the dream as an interpretation and starting to look at the beliefs that are below it, that's what we do when we come together. We just start to take a look at the beliefs like that. What seems to intensify too is you keep coming together to do it. And that's what, if you really are in it, so to speak, to go to the end, then you know, I'm saying I'm in it too with you, you know? That's all I can say from my mind is that I'm in, I've joined with that intention to do that. Do we have to go into it? I just wanted to be over with. We just have to go into it until we can see the impossibility of the duality in the world. And when I talk about it as a screen, I'm talking about it as a projection, it can just seem hypothetical and hairy-fairy, but it's like... But the duality, I have to be able to see that the split hit in my mind. I got one there. I've been with Zen masters who have meditated all day, all night, who have starved themselves, who have been to the Himalayas and every other mountain cave in the world. And the bottom line is there is no duality. They're very clear except one. Good and evil. Now, I haven't spent any time like that meditating. I'm sitting here talking a mile a minute. How am I ever going to get to the point of that, Dave? How am I ever? I mean, these are Zen masters. Who am I to ever get to the point of seeing no duality in this world? How many course and miracle conversations are we going to have before I see no duality in the world? That totally boggled my mind that I even... I mean, I'm satisfied to just keep meditating and get to there's good and evil and that doesn't bring me any peace. I might as well just stay right where I'm at. I would say too that very simply when that's come up in the Course and I've read what Jesus has to say, he says, ask yourself this question. Would God have a plan for my salvation that could fail? Good question. I mean, that's the question that I ask myself if I have a thought, like how am I ever going to, before I let it even go on and on and on, is just... Would God have a plan? Not necessary. This is bringing a lot of resistance up because that's precisely... I sit in a meditation and in fact, Zen meditation makes sense to me because there is no God essentially in it. And I'm not sure that I believe in this God or this Holy Spirit or this Christ. And if I don't believe in that, then how am I ever going to appreciate a statement like would God ever lead me in a plan that wouldn't work? The next step is what about forgiveness? Can you believe in forgiveness? Or to use more Zen terms, detachment or whatever you want to word it. See, that's what a psychotherapy pamphlet for me too, in the sense that it said formal belief in God is not essential because God is to be known, God can only be known, and even any kind of a belief in Him, even the most advanced so-called belief is still a concept. And so he does say in there, what about forgiveness? Even if you don't formally believe in that, just the idea of forgiveness or of healing. Or of anything. Something like that that seems to have a resonance. That's what I go to if the idea of a God even, this seems too iffy. See, it's just that when Christa presents something that I've also thought about, how many times am I going to be getting together? I can see me, 75. Excuse me, guys, I got my cane. Now can you go over that again? What does this mean about... I'm 42 now, I've been spending 35 more years going over this. Friends and have I with my... I think the key factor is willingness. How many years? I say that from the experience of that. I mean, I feel like things have just zoomed right along for me. You know, and three years ago, I was feeling like this is an impossible task. And now I'm sure it's a possible task. I mean, it seems very attainable to me. And, you know, what you said about how many times, it's like I guess the thought that came to my mind when you said that was, well, you know, till you get it, and it's like, it's reprogramming. You know, when you think of all the thoughts that have reinforced the wrong mind, it's like, you know, I don't know what the shock treatment would be, as it were, to just erase all that in a flash and be constantly in consistency and consistently in the right mind.