 In this episode, we'll be talking about designing less, what if we're doing it all wrong and should we be designing more for future memories from the past? And here is the guest of this episode. I'm Shirley Ryan and this is the Service Design Show. Hi all, my name is Marc Fontijn and this is a brand new episode of the Service Design Show. On this show, we talk about creating more human-centered businesses. And the way we do this is by studying the success of some of the world's best service designers. On the show, we talk about things ranging from customer experience and design taking to organizational change and creative leadership. If you're interested in that, be sure to know that we bring a brand new episode every three weeks on Thursday. So if you don't want to miss anything, be sure to click that subscribe button. My guest in this episode is Shirley Ryan. Shirley is the head of experience design at Isobar and she's been named as the two businesswoman. You'll see in a minute why. For the next 25 minutes or so, Shirley will be talking about designing less, questioning what if we're doing it all wrong and thinking about should we be designing more for future memories from the past. If you want to fast forward to one of these topics, as always, check out the episode guide down below in the description or just stick around and enjoy the whole episode. And if you prefer to listen to a podcast version of this episode, head over to servicedesignshow.com slash podcast where you'll find this episode and other previous ones. And now, let's jump right in. Welcome to the show, Shirley. Thanks for having me. For the people who are watching this episode, probably the very first question they have is what is behind you? It looks scary. It's a poster that is a vintage target shooting poster, which I found in a tiny little shop in Barcelona years ago and I have matching ones. All right. Okay. Okay. That's good to know that it's not aimed at us in this case. Shirley, first question that each and every guest gets is your first encounter with service design. When was that? Look, I think that in reality the first time that I came across service design, the terminology service design was probably around, I'd say 2008, 2009, which was when I went back to university. But in reality, I guess for a very long time I'd been involved with designing products and services without necessarily really knowing it. Yeah. And it was one of those moments where when you come across it, you think to yourself, wow, there's all these other people that are thinking just like me. So yeah, I would say that's around the time. I think so many people who are probably watching or listening and so many guests on the show have mentioned this, that you suddenly stumble upon the term and think, well, you know, is this how it's called? Is this what I'm doing? Yeah. Absolutely. That's exactly how it felt. I certainly felt like I'd found my people. Welcome to the tribe in that case. Thank you very much. You've given me three very interesting topics that we'll talk about for the next 25 minutes. Can you have a stack of question starters and we'll just co-create the questions as we go along? I'll just pick the first one and I'll surprise you and I'll pick the one that puzzles me the most. I'm really curious what you make out of this. These are not the typical service design show topics. So let's give it a go. This one is called Progressive Reduction. Do you have a question starter that goes along with this one? Well, can I use the dot dot dot? The wildcard. The wildcard? Go ahead. Yes. The reason that I'm going to use the wildcard is because we probably need to say, what is progressive reduction? So progressive reduction is what happens when you consistently take things away instead of consistently adding them. And I think this is a really interesting topic at the moment because we really live in a world that is just so full of stuff. There's absolutely more stuff than you could possibly ever imagine in a lifetime. As an example, if you're an Apple user or an Android user as it may be, you go to the App Store and you look at how many apps are on the App Store and the number of the apps that are used versus the number of apps that are not used, it's just astronomical, the amount of stuff that there is. And progressive reduction, in my mind, is a kind of undesign. So rather than continuing to add more and more and more things at the rate that we're going, we need to consider how we take them away. Interesting. And how many designers are thinking about this? Because I must admit, you're one of the few people that I hear talking about getting rid of stuff instead of creating new value. So basically, you're saying we should create value by removing things, right? That's exactly what I'm saying that we should try to do. Look, I think it's something that I'm seeing amongst some, certainly UX, what I would call UX designers or detailed designers who are working specifically with digital products, I've heard the terminology taking things away until you cry, trying to take away as much functionality as possible. But I think we can go beyond that because it's not only about the steps that are involved or the buttons that we click, or even the interactions that we have with the service, it could be a number of products or it could be a number of aspects of a service to get down to what is really the, it's interesting because then you sort of, the term that gets bandied around a lot at the moment is MVP or Minimum Viable Product. And I think that that term has lost its meaning in a sense because if you really want to get to a Minimum Viable Product, you really need to think about reducing what is there so that you do get down to the core of what is needed. On a large, yeah, I think that it's something that we need to think more and more about because of the sheer volume of what is being created. And when I, something that I guess comes up in my mind from time to time is it's taken us 150 years to figure out the damage that we did with the Industrial Revolution. How long will it take for us to realise what we're doing now? So, what is the key to actually do progressive reduction? And then one of the things that comes to my mind is that you should consider something as a scarcity and that might be like the time we take away from people or the attention we take away from people. Is that something, scarcity or how do we approach this? Look, I think there's lots of ways that you could approach thinking about it. I have this personal model for currency and I think about my own currency in terms of time, money, attention and energy. And recently I've thought of adding a fifth element to that model, which is value. And that's the value that I receive and the value that I create for others. So, you can certainly think of progressive reduction in terms of multiple lenses. Certainly there's the physicality and the visuality and the tangible component. But then there's what people, what people get from it and what they give. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of lenses that you can apply but the really amazing thing about what's going on right now is that things are changing so rapidly that we have to keep inventing new ways to think about problems. And I guess right now this is just something that's really on my mind in terms of what we're doing. Ultimately, if I could get to a place where I said to a client, they probably wouldn't want to hear this, but we don't think you need that. That would be really amazing. And they would pay you the premium price for that, just for that advice. So, the thing I'm really interested in is there's probably a lot of examples of stuff we don't need, but do we have some good examples or things that inspire you that have applied this mindset in a good way? Geez, that's really hard because I'm not sure and maybe that's part of the reason why it's on my mind that I'm not seeing that a lot in certainly the things that I have. What I can say is that I've definitely become a lot more discerning with what I use. So, I recently bought myself a new suitcase. I've got matching suitcases. Congratulations. Thank you very much. Matching suitcases, very special. They're both Victory Knox suitcases. And it took quite a while to figure out which was the right. I know this is crazy, but I'm a designer. It's okay. It took quite a while to figure out which suitcase was the right one. I travel a lot, so making sure that I have the right suitcases. And I should also footnote that I would probably call myself a design nomad. So, I don't necessarily have a, even though I spend a lot of time in Hong Kong and some time in Melbourne and across Asia Pacific, I haven't really had an apartment of my own very permanently for a long time. So, I live out of a suitcase. So, my two Victory Knox suitcases are pretty well designed in terms of what they are. That's interesting in itself, right? For luggage companies to think of themselves as something else. And if people would like to know more about this, you know, is there a resource you can refer them to, to read this or things that inspire you? Look, I think that there's certainly an element of this that has come from the thinking of an example would be the minimalists. They've got a documentary on Netflix. That's a good starting point, I think. I certainly follow them and a few others related to them on Facebook. And I really enjoy what they post, which is kind of ironic in a way that a designer would be minimalist. But design has gone through minimalist phases before. And if design, say visual design could go through a minimalist phase, then I don't see why experiential design can't go through a minimalist phase as well. I can recommend the book by Edward de Bono's Simplicity. I guess it's also a classic in this case. Let's move on. Topic number two. Hard to pick. Let's do this one. Topic number two is we're doing it all wrong. And again, if you want to use the wildcard, feel free. Where is it? We're doing it all wrong. If this one. What if? What if? We're doing it all wrong. Okay. What is it? What is it? Life? We're gonna get really philosophical right now. For some reason, there really isn't a day that doesn't go by where I don't wake up in the morning and think to myself, what if we're doing this all wrong? What if this is not how we're meant to do things? And I think from a design perspective, this is something that's probably really propelled me towards design my whole life. Trying to fix things, trying to make things better. And it's a question that I think about, and I guess I don't want to say meditate on, but I definitely probably overthink around if we were doing it wrong, what would the opposite of that look like? What would it look like if we were? And what are your ideas on that? I feel like, again, it's quite a contrast to being a designer because the act of being a designer is about bringing things into the world. And I find myself wondering, were we actually given everything that we need? And we're just not doing it right. So the act of creating more and more and more and filling people with all of these amazing things, is that actually taking something away from what we're supposed to be doing? Is it distracting us from the things we should be doing? Maybe. Well, look, definitely. You only have to walk down the street and someone will be on their phone walking towards you, completely zombified on their phone. We really are quite consumed by the things that are around us. So how does this translate into the things you do as a designer? Do you have a way to put this into practice or is this something that's alive in your head? It's definitely something I think about when I am designing. So it really pushes me to think about the human perspective, really get into, I guess, into the mind and into the shoes and into the being of whoever it is that I'm designing for. Because without that, it's almost not worth designing for. If we're not intentionally designing for the betterment of people's lives, I think we are doing it wrong. So this is how would you influence young designers or people that are getting into design education today? What would you say to them? About this particular topic? Yeah. Look, I think it's really amazing. So I'm not exactly sure where it is. I want to say it's in Sweden, the museum of bad design. Have you heard of this? No. Okay. So there's a museum of bad design. And I think it's super interesting that all humans can recognize in a way, at least on some level, what bad design is. We know when something doesn't work the way we want it to. We know that it feels a bit weird. So I think that getting young designers to consider alternatives, consider other ways of doing things that maybe playing by the rules is not necessarily the only way to approach design. It's a really important part of their development. It certainly was mine. I spent a long time trying to design the way that other people wanted me to. And I guess after getting things wrong many times, learning from what I did, getting it right sometimes, never go to market, I guess what I've come to realize is that there are no rules when it comes to inventing the future. That's what we probably the title of this episode. What I'm getting from what you're saying right now, and I think this has been on one or two episodes in the past, is that maybe good design is way humble that it is today. As in it's less visible, it's almost transparent and it's not getting in the way of us being us. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's interesting that you left the last topic to last, because I think we're going to move into this. There we go. Third topic. And it's called experience or memory. So for this one, I might have to use the wildcard again. Go ahead, you'll be the first guest who uses the wildcard twice in an episode. Sorry, I know. So experience or memory? What is the question? Are we designing for experience or memory? So there is a psychologist whose name escapes me, who did a fantastic TED talk and I will give you the link. Included in the description. And he very specifically talks about the present self and the remembering self, two kinds of selves, which I think is very, very interesting. And the way that our present self experiences things in the moment. So for example, when you're using a product, you're experiencing in the present. And then the remembering self is about your memory of the experience. So I'll give you an example of this that happened to me last weekend. So me and my partner, we went to an art exhibition out in the country. We came back and we went to an antiques warehouse that was out in the country. And we walked in and I was like, you know, being a little bit minimalistic minded. I was quite overwhelmed by the amount of stuff that was in this place, which freaked me out. Meanwhile, he was running off looking around everywhere and he screams out Nintendo 64. 64. So this is a really interesting space to think about because whilst a Nintendo 64 now doesn't necessarily have any real present experience value, there is a value in the memory of that experience. So he values the memory of the experience. He probably wants to play VR to be honest now, but the memory of his experiences with Nintendo 64 have stuck with him all that time, you know, 25 years later or whatever it is. And I think this is really powerful. And do you think Nintendo was designing for that back then? No, I don't. I'd be very surprised. I mean, someone, please tell me I'm wrong here. I think they were designing for the present experience. I don't think that they were designing for the, you know, when I say the future experience, it's the future remembering experience. That's getting really meta, right? But imagine how powerful that can be. You know, designing something for memories. I think Disney is probably a good example of designing for memories. And then you kind of get into a space where you're thinking about what I would describe as constructive, constructive experiences like Disney, which is where you have this constructed experience that is built for memories and more of the authentic present experience that we are creating today when we're making products and services and so on. So there's an interesting interplay between these things. And I think that there is an opportunity to strengthen, certainly for brands, to strengthen the relationships that they have with people by creating present experiences that continue well beyond into the future and the remembering experience that people have. It's like sort of building a heritage or something that you remembered about, right? And baking that into your design process. So this is a really interesting thought as well. So again, going back to this antiques warehouse that we went to, the things that we create today don't necessarily have that heirloom type quality, the way that things used to. So we're designing things that, we're not designing things at last. We're designing things that change. So we used to design things that would last and now we're designing things that change because we know things are going to change rapidly. So there's no, there's no keepsake that we have anymore, except for the experience that we have, the experience that we remember. And do you think, will we grow up as a generation that won't have anything to point at in 30 years to show, to make our memories tangible? Because everything changed? Well, this is the thing. I wonder if we are, but the things that we will have are the things that represent those memories. So for example, Instagram, social media, they're the types of memories that we have now that we hang on to, that we carry around with us. It's funny, it's actually one of the reasons that I do get tattooed now and have done more than I have ever before because I am such a nomad in the way that I work and I live. I can't carry things around with me. Here I am saying my beautiful, beautiful suitcase is designed so well. This suitcase won the red dot in 2016. So it genuinely is a great design. My tattoos are something that I can carry with me. I don't have to have a poster like this that I lug around with me everywhere I move to. I have them on me. So experiences are intrinsically tied to memories that we carry around with us. And now we're carrying those memories in a completely different way than we used to. Interesting. And how will companies be remembered in 10, 15, 20 years, right? That's a quite powerful thought and I don't think the big brands with a few exceptions are bothered with this. Well, it's interesting because they say at the moment that the average life cycle is 15 years for a brand and their success and succession. And with the rate of exponential change that will decrease and decrease and decrease. So creating experiences that are designed for the future remembering self are important because that will last much longer in the mind of people than the experience that they have in the present. And to be honest, the present experiences are becoming so, I guess, much of a muchness. There's not, you know, there's only sort of small differentiations between different types of experiences and they're being driven by, you know, by those major players, whether it be Google or Facebook and so on. So there's the same sameness that's happening in design at the moment. But I think that designing for the far future, not in terms of this is the technology for the far future, but rather designing for the way that people feel and remember things, that is a way to differentiate experiences. Yeah. Hmm. I think that's a really good closing to this third topic. And I'm sure, you know, there are people listening to this episode or watching the video. And this is your opportunity to ask them a question. Is there something you'd like to know, something that puzzles you? I'd love to. I mean, I'd love it if other people would send their answers to these questions, because I would love to read. Actually, I do have a question then. Are you thinking like this too? Am I the only one who's thinking like this? Or are there more people out there thinking like this? Because I find that sometimes I feel isolated in my thinking. And I'd love to know that there's other people who are thinking in, I guess, intellectual ways, real intellectual ways. I don't want to sound like a complete jerk, but are there any other design philosophers out there? And are they watching the show? And that's the big question. Yeah, I'm watching the show. And if they are, we should all connect, because these are the types of questions and thinking that I think will push design to a place where it really can change the world that we live in. Thanks so much for sharing, Shirley. It's been a pleasure to have you on, to have these conversations and to have a small look inside your head. So. Thank you for having me, Mark. And I can't wait to hear the answers to the questions. Me neither. So let's wrap up this episode. So what is your biggest takeaway from this episode? And what is your answer to the questions Shirley asked? Leave your thoughts and ideas down below in the comments. And remember, more people like you are watching these episodes and your comment might just be the thing that helps someone to get his next meaningful breakthrough. If you're interested in learning more, check out some of the past episodes or head over to learn.servesdesignshow.com where you'll find courses by leading service design experts that dig deeper into the topics we discuss here on the show. I'll see you in two weeks time with a brand new episode. Thanks for watching and see you then.