 Welcome viewers to our ongoing program nuclear free future conversation coming to you from Burlington, Vermont, from Tom meeting TV channel 17 Center for media and democracy. I'm your host Margaret Harrington, and viewers this is part two of our program 75 years of nuclear fallout from Hiroshima to now. And let's welcome back our guests Alfred see Meyer from positions for social responsibility, and Kevin camps of beyond nuclear. Welcome back, Alfred and Kevin. I'm. Yes. So we're continuing this, this conversation about the nuclear fall out from 19 from August 6 and August 9, 1945. So can you just give us a little recap of what we were talking about in part one, and we'll continue on the subject. Part one, we began to tell the story of how, starting with the mining of uranium in the Belgian Congo, great harm was done to the miners, great health problems for the communities and the people in them. And that this led to this huge industrial endeavor, which led to the bombing, the incineration of two Japanese cities, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Kevin mentioned that initially, these explosions like the very first atomic weapon or atomic explosion the Trinity test. The Trinity test was used to be listed as the first test in the second and third tests where the two bombs dropped on Japan, because the first one in Hiroshima was a uranium bomb. One kind of design and the second one was a plutonium bomb which is entirely different kind of mechanism. So we were field testing these weapons. And we talked about that there are strong arguments that say they were not needed to end the war, that Japan was crying to surrender. The sticking point was whether the emperor could have any rights or respect. And then also we wanted to rush the peace process to keep the Russians from taking part in it. The Russians had a lot of scores to settle with Japan they very much wanted to be there, but we saw Russia as a real enemy so using those weapons, in one sense was a real message to Russia. And we talked about some of the accidents, like the mind tailings breach of the dam in Church Rock, New Mexico, which was a the biggest release of atomic material in this country. But this whole endeavor is very costly and very damaging, even if we never use another weapon. And we now we also mentioned that after going through a period, well we didn't talk about this but I'll mention it now. At one point, you know, we had the Cold War and at one point between Russia and the US there were 72,000 nuclear warhead. And then we realized that this is horribly dangerous. There are many treaties signed international treaties bilateral treaties summer multilateral the nuclear non proliferation treaty, the anti ballistic missile treaty, the comprehensive test man treaty, all these different means to try to control this genie to kind of at least reduce its size even if we can't put it back in the bottle. Starting with Reagan Reagan and Gorbachev and Reykjavik almost got rid of nuclear weapons and it's to me so tragic because the sticking point was Reagan insisted on his missile defense the so called Star Wars program which Russia I think rightly saw as an offensive missile, you know, weapons system, but because of that we did not get rid of these things and so now we're at a point where Trump is pulling us out of treaties and pushing for a huge new nuclear arms race. So not only, and to show you how insidious this is I want to mention that when President Obama was in office. He worked very hard to get the start to treaty pass strategic arms. Reduction. New starts. Yeah, the new start. And he was successful in that but there was a price he had to pay and the price was agreeing to a $1.7 trillion, he isn't trillion dollar refurbishment of our entire nuclear weapons complex. And to me if you're refurbishing your entire nuclear weapons complex, I don't think you're getting rid of nuclear weapons, even though a recent US Department of Energy report says exactly that it says that the only way we can have non proliferation is if we are dominant in nuclear weapons. And if I can't think of anything much more or well Ian and double speak ish than that. So we're at the precipice of this huge dive into new weapons, more weapons that there's not the threats, you know, the wrong instruments. Kevin, do you want to add anything else to kind of summarize where we were and then the point I would make in handing it over to you is to say that if we're going to build all sorts of new weapons, more usable weapons, oddly enough, that it's going to make a lot more nuclear waste and we'd have a clue as to what to really do with the waste we already have as Kevin always points out the very first couple of nuclear waste created under stag field at the University of Chicago in 1942, still has not been disposed of properly. I'm just reminded of the Hopi prophecy. We've spoken a lot about New Mexico and the Hopi have ancestral lands in New Mexico. In fact, the whole tech international dump site targeted at southeastern New Mexico, the Hopi have land claims down there, even though it's far removed from their current reservation and in Arizona. The Hopi prophecy is quite incredible. It came from the creator and the creators original instructions to the Hopi. And the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were assigned to the Hopi to share this warning with the world from their ancient teachings from the creator. And in their prophecy, the atomic bombs were referred to as a gourd full of ashes because they had no concept of, you know, nuclear weapons per se, but a gourd full of ashes falling from the sky, turning all the land into ashes. And on part one, Alfred spoke about the radioactive ash that fell for days after the Trinity blast in south central New Mexico. So the Hopi warned beginning in 1947. They warned the world. They attempted to warn the United Nations General Assembly in their prophecy. It was called the House of Micah because the Hopi didn't even have glass. They knew of this House of Micah, this glass building in New York City and their ambassador, their spiritual ambassador for the spiritual elders, Thomas Baniakya Sr. Traveled to the UN time and time again, knocking on the door of the House of Micah, trying to speak to the General Assembly. A warning from the Hopi, actually a warning from the creator that you human beings are at a crossroads. And if you take this one road, it leads to chaos, catastrophe and an end. And that is the nuclear road. If you take this other road, it's a better outcome. And the creator would like us to take that other road. So it's just incredible wisdom and a warning to the world that we had stopped, we'd better stop going down this road. And Alfred mentioned this essentially $2 trillion US nuclear weapons renovation plan. It's madness. I know there's a lot of folks addicted to this nuclear money. New Mexico itself is addicted to this nuclear money. Los Alamos National Laboratory, Sandia National Laboratory are addicted to billions of dollars per year of not cleanup money necessarily. They have a big mess to clean up out there. They are addicted to nuclear weapons, manufacture money. So unfortunately, the Trump administration is planning plutonium pit production at Los Alamos National Lab. It's new weapons for new military purposes, a violation of US commitments under the non-proliferation treaty to disarm, to abolish its nuclear weapons. The NPT is 50 years old this year. It sure has taken us a while to abolish our nuclear arsenal. We're not the only ones, though. Russia is still gung-ho about its nuclear arsenal. They are making insane advances, so-called, in nuclear-powered, nuclear-tipped cruise missiles. And they had an accident with one in August of 2019 that was a significant nuclear accident, a significant radiological release. People were killed, and we had better learn as the Hopi have warned. We had better learn before it's too late. And don't take it from me. Take it from Henry Kissinger of all people who got together with George Schultz and some Democratic colleagues, former secretaries of state, William Perry, former Pentagon chiefs, warning back in 2007 and numerous times since, they're called the Four Horsemen of the Nuclear Apocalypse. These were nuclear war chiefs for the United States. These were the top officials in the U.S. government who relied on this so-called deterrent policy to assert U.S. interests around the world for decades on end. They warned that there is one existential threat to the United States. It is nuclear weapons. It is nuclear weapons proliferation. Better abolish, we had better abolish nuclear weapons before they abolish us to echo John Kennedy. Well, then talk about the treaties like the non-proliferation treaty that was trashed by President Bush in 2004 with handing over nuclear power information to India, which never signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. And that's another subject about the nuclear powers which include India and Pakistan and the fact that India itself never signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. Margaret, I'll take a moment to mention a study that PSR did a few years ago called Nuclear Famine. And it is a book about what would happen if India and Pakistan, for instance, had a limited small exchange of nuclear weapons. Nothing like the vast stockpiles that the U.S. and Russia have, but there's just a little nuclear war. This would not only cause great devastation if the people were bombed and irradiated, but it would loft so much dust into the atmosphere from the fires and the explosions that it would reduce agricultural output worldwide by 10% for at least a decade. So more than two billion people are likely to starve to death should there be a small nuclear conflagration. And the treaty is even like the NPT. I mean, it's such a fraught topic in my mind because the NPT treaty is about the only one left and at least has people talking in some degree of oversight and exchange of information. But it has the provision which allows for civilian nuclear power. And in part one, we talked about how civilian nuclear power is essential for nuclear weapons. And to illustrate that point, I would look at a while you could you mentioned India. They had a Canadian can do reactor and for peaceful purposes. And that's how they made their first weapons. So it's, you know, saying that the countries have the inalienable right to nuclear power. And another example is Iran. Iran's just claiming we were just taking our, you know, treaty given right there. But why are we so upset? It's because this is the path to nuclear weapons. It's the same infrastructure. It's the same science, the same technical capacity. There's just slightly different paths right at the end. And Alfred mentioned in part one that Eisenhower gave his Adams for peace speech in 1953. And another amazing book by Arjun Makajani is called the nuclear power deception from 1999. And the thesis from my read of that book is that this Adams for peace speech the smiley face propaganda was really a cover for nuclear weapons development because if you think about it when he gave the speech in 1953 there were no atomic reactors for electricity in the United States. Yes, the US nuclear Navy under Rick over would build one in shipping port Pennsylvania in 1957 the first so called civilian reactor built by the US nuclear Navy, a submarine reactor designed built on land. But reactors didn't start to come online until the early 1960s really they didn't come online and any numbers until the 1970s. Where was all that uranium going while it was going into the arms race of the United States it was the nuclear weapons build up with a Adams for peace cover story. And here we go again I mean Alfred just mentioned it. If you know if thorium reactors proliferate internationally if small modular reactors proliferate internationally the new catch words of the industry. It's going to give nuclear weapons capability to these countries and Saudi Arabia is a really concerning one right now. The crown prince on 60 minutes said right out loud if Iran develops a nuclear weapon will be right on their heels doing it ourselves. They would use American or Korean nuclear power technology, whether uranium enrichment or plutonium reprocessing to build a Saudi nuclear arsenal. Talk about a rough neighborhood I mean Israel already has nuclear weapons. Iran has said it does not intend to build nuclear weapons but with the technology could, if it chose to Saudi Arabia could do the thing. The same thing. Alfred mentioned another tough neighborhood in the world India Pakistan and that study that PSR and IPP and W did was about the exchange of 100 Nagasaki sized bombs, causing a nuclear famine that would kill 2 billion people from starvation. So, we're really playing with fire and I mentioned those cold warriors like Kissinger have said we need to abolish these things before they abolish us. Kevin, show me what shirt you have on there and what is the significance of that. Yeah, I wore it when Diane Drigo and I were on your show this is my whole whole tech t shirt. And it is the latest environmental injustice the latest nuclear racism to afflict New Mexico. A majority minority state New Mexico is a majority of Hispanics and Native Americans and the white population is the minority in New Mexico. So guess what the state that's already suffered so much from nuclear since 1943 when Los Alamos moved in now is being targeted for a high level radioactive waste dump. This company called whole tech international headquartered in New Jersey wants to dump 100,000 metric tons or even up to 173,000 metric tons commercial radiated nuclear fuel in southeastern New Mexico in a Hispanic area that as I mentioned has Hopi connections, the Mescalero Apache are very nearby. In fact, the Mescalero Apache 25 years ago were targeted for this very dump. They didn't get away with it that time because they were stopped by traditionals like Rufina Marie Laws and Joe Geronimo who led the anti dump effort. So this time around groups like this t shirt Alliance for environmental strategies, a Hispanic environmental justice group are fighting with everything they have joined by groups across New Mexico and around the country to try to stop this dump. And the fight is very much on. We have a public comment deadline on the draft environmental impact statement of September 22. And I should hasten to add that Rose Gardner, the co founder of Alliance for environmental strategies lives in Eunice New Mexico, which is right on the Texas border. So this whole tech dump is about 3540 miles from rose, the Texas dump, another consolidated interim storage facility proposal for high level waste is about five miles from rose at waste control specialists in Texas. It's also called interim storage partners. So that neck of the woods within 40 miles to of these high level radioactive waste dumps that could easily become not temporary or interim but de facto permanent are targeted at this area. And we have a national coalition of environmental and environmental justice and anti nuclear groups fighting with everything we have to try to stop this major radioactive racism that is targeted at that area. And part of the problem with what the waste situation I would argue is the lack of congressional respect for science because Yucca mountain, which was slated to be our geologic repository was chosen, not through the original scientific process outlined in the 1982 Nuclear Waste Policy Act, which called for an assessment of 10 sites and one east of the Mississippi one west of the Mississippi in 1987 when Congress amended that act. They just simply up and chose Yucca mountain is the place and Yucca mountain is an area that's built out of volcanic tough. It's a porous rock. It's in an area of seismic activity. It's in an area of volcanic activity, and it's over an aquifer. I mean, it's ludicrous that this would be chosen as a place to keep something safe for millions of years. And Nevada had little political power back then, and it was, they just were chosen by the wisdom of the congressional votes, not by science. So really Yucca mountain I think will never open. But that is relevant to what Kevin's talking about about centralized interim storage, because how do you define interim. There's, if there's no other place to put it. It's, as Kevin mentioned, de facto permanent. So, and then we so people really should follow the web links to letters and how to make comments and just express yourselves because it really is, you know, the few, the many of us against the few of them who are in control. And if we're not active will soon be radioactive. The other thing to bring up is that as if this isn't bad enough. And this, my hope is that maybe the ludicrousness of this proposal will actually cause action about it. But the Nuclear Regulatory Commission is in the process of in the back room rewriting a little regulatory rule, which would basically allow vast amounts of radioactive materials being left behind when you shut down a nuclear reactor nuclear power plant. And instead of making it go to one of these designated regulated dumps, like Yucca mountain, or even these consolidate interim sites that this radioactive material could be put virtually any place it could be put in your town's transfer station just down the road. Now clearly this is a great boon to the industry. The industry was supposed to be saving decommissioning money. So they have huge pots of money that's going to be used for this very expensive complicated thing. But if this very low level waste rule is changed. This is the entire game. The industry can just dump whatever it wants wherever it wants. And as mentioned before, radioactivity is tasteless. It's odorless. You need highly sophisticated equipment to measure it so how do you know what's in your landfill down the road. This is just, you know, it's part of Trump's effort to completely deregulate things and just dump whatever you want where you want. And this is another issue that we need to be in touch with our state attorney generals. Our state political parties are federal legislators, legislators and tell them do not do this. We must control this matter as much as we can. We've already greatly solid our home, the planet Earth. Let's let's not go whole hog on it. And just this morning I heard from here in Vermont from representative Welsh and from Senator Sanders, and it was about the, the, what I signed from the, the resource services the diandere goes organization, nuclear information and resource. And near near is net right and IRS net. And that was a response from from both of them from Congressman Welsh and Senator Sanders, but it was not a definitive condemnation from either one about the, the putting of very low level nuclear waste into our local landfills. I'm sorry to say. I'd encourage your listeners and viewers to attend a meeting of the Vermont nuclear decommissioning community advisory panel that is scheduled for Monday, September 1 21 Monday, September 21 beginning at 6pm. This is a very important meeting of the end of cap. It has to do with Vermont Yankees decommissioning and these issues will come up very low level waste being allowed to be dumped in local landfills with with no regulatory control, but also these issues of consolidated interim storage facilities, whether in New Mexico or Texas, the Yucca Mountain dump, all of these issues will likely be discussed, because unfortunately, the end of cap back in 2015, five years ago, took a position in favor of consolidated interim storage facilities. And they've never corrected that position. So, as we've discussed, this is an environmental injustice, consolidated interim storage in Texas and New Mexico, and they really need to correct their position because they are speaking on behalf of Vermonters. And already the Texas dump is a national low level radioactive waste dump located above the Oglala aquifer. Vermont waste is going there. In fact, Vermont and Texas are compact. They really run the show out there, but they've opened the doors to the entire country. And it's already an environmental injustice that already threatens the Oglala. But this high level waste would make the situation much worse, as would very low level waste being dumped in local landfills or incinerated or even recycled or poured down the sewer. And companies like North Star at Vermont Yankee, which is closely connected in fact is the same consortium as runs waste control specialists would very much like to save a lot of money on disposal costs and simply pocket the leftover money as pure profit. That is their business model so it's going to take the people of Vermont, it's going to take the people of the United States stopping these insane proposals that put public health and safety in the environment at risk we have to get very active. And as Alfred said contacts your elected officials at all levels federal state and local. Okay, gentlemen, are we are we ready to wrap up part two of our discussion. I with I am. I'm filled with a fear of the future, given our past. And I am very grateful grateful to both of you and the organizations that you represent for bringing your message here to Vermont and because we are online, of course, we're all remote at the moment, but we are online so we have an international audience to so. Thank you very much and and please would I'll give you both the floor to to to say, you know, to wrap up the show and we'll look forward to part three at an at another time but meanwhile we'll go through the 75th anniversary of Hiroshima and Nagasaki 75 years. So thank you, Kevin Alfred, and I'll give you both the last words. Thank you, Margaret I am empathetic with your sense of foreboding and fear and looking at the horrible parts of our past history, but I take great support or encouragement from the current huge social justice movement that's a foot in this country. And that's why I've tried to say how much so much of this atomic effort the nuclear weapons nuclear power is similar to racism and and is in itself racist. And that it's again it's a call for the majority of us is this like to take action to stop a tiny minority who are endangering all of us terrifically damaging all of us terrifically and making a pile of money to boot that you know this is a very bountiful world. And we should be able to provide housing and health care and food for all. You know, there can still be some rich people they won't be quite as rich, but you know that I think it's the time for us to act and I feel personally that the only reason we're able to be here to talk today is that the vast majority of people, in fact are very good, honest and honorable people. The nuclear world is filled with stories of near misses of people who didn't do what they're supposed to do because they didn't want to blow up the world. And that's why we're here so it's nip and tuck. And you know with all these weapons and high alert it could take just a moment to happen. But I also have great hope that we all through the like your efforts of putting this show on the air. And getting this message out that the people who are listening to it will take action and we will make these changes. Thank you, Margaret. Thank you. Thank you. Kevin. Well, Margaret, I noticed the Helen Caldicott book behind you. And I remember hearing her speak once and she quoted a founder of the civil rights movement who said, when you see a good fight, jump in it. And like Alfred said, we are at a moment of national change for the better with the George Floyd movement. So, you know, with Trump proposing a resumption of nuclear weapons testing on Western Shoshone land in Nevada for the first time since 1992, full scale nuclear weapons testing. With all these dump fights, whether it's Yucca on Shoshone land or these dumps in New Mexico in Texas. We have to, you know, folks in Vermont have to get clearly through to Peter Welsh that voting in favor of these dumps in New Mexico, Texas and Nevada is not okay. It's an environmental injustice and on that reason alone is not okay. He needs to stop doing that. So, Vermonters have a real political power right now with Bernie Sanders advising Joe Biden closely. So, on nuclear weapons issues as Alfred has said defunding nuclear weapons like defunding the police and redirecting that funding to human needs and to justice and to reparations. And not being in touch with their congressional delegation right now would make a big difference in a lot of ways. So I just encourage people that when you see a good fight, jump in it. So be there for the end of cat meeting on September 21st, get those comments in on whole tech by September 22nd, get those comments in on Texas by November 3rd, and change the world. That's what we got to do, change the world for the better. Thank you.