 Okay, welcome to the Monday January 6th meeting of the Montpelier Design Review Committee. I will let members and staff introduce themselves. I'm Martha Smirsky. Hannah Smith. Meredith Crandall. Steph. Stephen Everett. Seth. Benjamin Cheney. Unless anybody else has anything to add, I'm not going to go through the description of our committee that we're advisory to the Development Review Board. We've been here a number of times, so you know the drop line now. And unless anybody else has anything to add, do I hear a motion to approve the agenda? I move to approve the agenda. Here's a second. I'll in favor of the agenda, raise your hand. And we will go forward to the first applicant, 66 Main Street, Overlake Park. Come up and have a seat and describe your parking proposal. Sure. Thank you very much. And this is actually, this is a proposal that was approved previously, I think it was six or seven years ago that we had this identical proposal approved, but the idea here being we are looking to put seven parking spaces into our vacant lot at 66 Main Street with some fencing in front of it to act as kind of like safe screening, but also something that's kind of pleasing to look at with flower boxes on top of it. The plan for that parking, it's not necessarily for public use. We would permit those spaces out. It would be for three staff in my office, including myself, two Charlio staff, two additional spaces that probably will go to either a long-term apartment tenant or somebody who's a retail tenant in the downtown core. So the idea isn't to have a lot of movement in and out or to use the spaces as kind of like meet or rental spaces there. The parking lot would be graded, paved, lined, and we would put up signs designated that those spaces were reserved for those particular folks. Just a quick question. Is this area between the 70 and the proposed parking, is that used for parking, or is that just? It is not meant to be used for parking, but it's not my space. That's the 68 Main Street property. That's the 68 Main Street property, so that's behind what is now the yarn store. Notions. Notions. Yeah. Maybe you can, this doesn't give a very good illustration of that depth, but it's kind of this area that is along this wall. The 68 Main actually on that space all the way back to this line? Maybe, I'm just asking for information. Yeah, I'm not entirely sure. I believe they do. Okay. Yeah, I'm not quite sure where that boundary goes to. I think that it is in line with our Charliot's building there. And Charliot's is 70 Main Street? Charliot's is 70, yeah. I was having trouble trying to picture where your parking would be, so you would have the backs of cars up against that right-of-way, the alley that comes through. That's what you're thinking. This is your measurements. This is a standard parking space ending here. And then if you go to, sorry, this is just easier, if you go to the one that was marked up through the DPW comments, so there's a different site plan that has some yellow highlighting on it. So this is purge of DPW comments, there's some distances down at the bottom. So there's a 12-foot aisle between the back of the parking spaces to, but until you get to the actual right-of-way to the alley. Because this alley is really a one-car alley, right? Yeah. So DPW is saying that there can't be parking here for snow storage? That's not for snow storage, that's to allow at least one car to sit there waiting for another parking space or to get in and not be blocking the sidewalk and let those other cars, those five front spaces, still be able to get out or maneuver. There's a, I don't think it's a B71 standard that there has to be a road to get in and be able to get out of the public right-of-way and not be blocking parked cars. Not be blocking other people in so that yellow area needs to be free for a car to sit there waiting, if need be, and not be blocking pedestrian or vehicular traffic in the mean right-of-way. Okay. So, and the concern is that you can't park here because- Because you'll be blocking those vehicles in- While you're waiting for somebody to cross the sidewalk. No, while you're waiting for somebody to get out of the- If somebody was backing out of one of those spaces, the proposing that if somebody was backing out of one of those spaces, it's now blocking somebody from getting in and people trying to be able to cross on the sidewalk. If those spaces are all designated, why would you be waiting? Well, because this person may also be waiting to get in here. Because there's something- While somebody's backing out. Yep. I mean, I feel like, just like the other one, I mean, this is DVW, we have no jurisdiction here, I get it, so just shut up. Yeah. It's, and it's something that I, you know, as a zoning administrator, I'm not going to- I understand. Tell DVW that their standards are right, especially with standards like this, I think, come down from the state. I understand. And again, our purview is only on the design, not necessarily rights of access. Sure. So, that's not our call. What's the decision regarding the fencing and mulch? Decision as in- 30 linear feet of fencing and mulch. Great. So, there's a- You used to get the email with your plans for how high it was. Sure. So, the fencing, which is going to be wood, and with flower boxes on top, it's going to be 42 inches high slatted so that, you know, to help kind of align the site below and above folks who are like kind of coming out of there, will be able to see through and also over it, and flower boxes are generally pretty. So, we figured we would put some of those on there and kind of maintain those throughout at least the months when flowers grow in Vermont. So, again, the design resembles the back of the black door. Black door. Yeah. Right. I saw that. So, that- Yeah. I think that would be right up against the sidewalk, basically. So, the fence is held back from- So, you're not hanging over the sidewalk? I guess it wouldn't be hanging over the sidewalk, right? Yeah. And then the overall 30 foot length just demarcates your overall distance to right away? That is to the right away from- That's the length of the- Yeah. Horizontal. Horizontal. Horizontal. The space and the axis. Right. And that meets just your standard front yard zoning requirements for fencing maximum heights. That's all within the zoning regulations' allowances, as well as we've run it by Department of Public Works and they have issues in line of sight with that. Okay. It was important to them that pedestrians be able to see through to see if cars are coming, as well as be able to see out if they're trying to exit both for vehicles coming and pedestrians. Sorry, I missed that while coughing. You're saying that DPW is requesting that that fence be something you can see through? Yeah. They don't want it solid. And they're- They're because of line of sight issues and safety issues. In the winter, what will you do? Just pull the boxes? Or are they built in? I think- I figured that they would be built in. We would probably just kind of re-plant them every season. And what is this for? What species? This is just a pressure treated. We're figuring that that probably would- and whether the element's best. We've had good luck with it. That's what it is at the black door. And you can just dig through to put your 4x4 sand in and mount your fencing to those verticals. Right. That was the idea. Is there any fencing or anything proposed to delineate the line back here as cars are pulling in? We were going to just put kind of curb stops in there. But no, there is not anything proposed for that area. And the signs will just be on post? Just on post. Right there? Yeah. Because it's not a residential area back there, you're not trying to separate it from- basically right now it's used back there as sort of just a parking area. The zoning requirements don't really require additional screening between those two uses. Okay. As far as I can tell. Okay. After you, Seth. Thank you. That doesn't even be your seat. I can't fight back about it. Just curious as to why you selected this fence. Why I selected this particular fence. Why a fence in general. We needed something to create a boundary area. We needed to be able to see through it. We figured that there was likely potential for damage to whatever kind of screening was going to be there because of snow removal, vandalism, things like that. This is an easy fence to kind of like fix and repair various pieces of. So that was part of the thinking. The other idea as Marinus said is you can see through it. And we had put it up in the downtown district so it was something that had kind of aesthetically been approved. So the three thoughts. A raised bed would be something that would be considered. I would need to look back at the site plan requirements. I can look at that right now while you discuss. But there's some screening requirement because it's a parking lot. There needs to be something there. My questions are along the lines of Seth's and more interested in what are the DPW things that we need. The DPW? Well, not DPW. Design review. No, like that it's see through. Like the other jurisdictions that are saying, okay, if you're going to build this thing, it's got to be. Whatever you, if it's a fence or a wall you cannot interfere in line of sight, both for pedestrians and vehicular and bicycle traffic. That line of sight standard doesn't necessarily have a particular standard to it. It's sort of, that's more of an engineered judgment call, but they were happy with the height and the see through ability. Right, is the 42 inches a magic number? The four and a half feet is the maximum height. 32 inches is not necessarily a maximum, like a magic number itself. The four and a half feet. Yeah, we chose 42 inches figuring that with growth on top of that it would keep us kind of below that 48 inches. What is it? Four and a half feet. Four and a half feet, so 54 inches. So screening is a requirement for this type of parking. Even though we're right up against the street. It's the same thing over at Cap La Pazza. When you drive into where the Northfield Bank is between the Stone Church and the Cap La Pazza, when you drive in there, they put that iron fencing in, see through. Well, just hold on one second. I mean it was, one reason you started with the fence in this, because that was part of what was required in your previous, or what you proposed and was accepted in your previous application. That's right, and that was, I mean, a lot of the reason that that was, was because the last time we were here and speaking to deciders, some of you might even remember Steve. That was a choice that was acceptable at the time. And screening was a requirement. And separation between vehicles and pedestrians was a requirement. And I guess that was the decidedly appropriate compromise there. And it was good enough looking. I'm not sure. So what, is there a height on the screening, a minimum height on the screening that's required? There's not a minimum. So what, I'm telling you about, what is the definition of screening? It's just... See part of, part of the issue here is that you're dealing, you're dealing with in a district that technically is exempt from landscaping? I need, hold on, just give me a minute, okay, to read. Because I didn't, it's not like I did a staff report for today. My line of thought here is that it would be nice to have something different. It seems that this fence is not going to last. It's going to get beat on quickly. I know you can repair it. It's easy to repair, but it just seems like it's going to be an ongoing maintenance issue. And it seems a little out of context being right up to the sidewalk. It's not in a residential neighborhood. It's downtown. I know it's on the backside of the second story of the building adjacent. But if we could come up with a more elegant solution, whether landscaping or raised bed, that is within the definition of screening, then I think it would be much more successful and much more resilient to abuse. So it doesn't have to be a fence. Screening may include natural or man-made elements, including landscaped buffers of trees and shrubs, earthen berms, fences, walls, screens, camouflage, or similar mechanisms. And it doesn't have to be a screen. Screening does not need to be that all views of the area or element to be screened are fully blocked. Rather, screening should be used to soften and break up views and create visual interest elsewhere on the site so that the area or element to be screened no longer dominates the view. So it doesn't have to be a fence. There needs to be some sort of break between the sidewalk and where the parking spaces start and where the paved area starts. So technically, it could be a landscaped area with some trees in it in between the sidewalk and where the parking spaces start. I'm all for some sort of defense there, whatever that word means. But I'm with Seth, and I think it is an opportunity to do something far more interesting than that. Which doesn't mean more money either, I mean, again. Well, I mean, it might, but I think also that Jesse has demonstrated an openness to interesting ideas. I think he's trying to propose something that he knows has been accepted in the past and not necessarily trying to rock the boat. And so I think there could be an opportunity to do something that's far more interesting. Seth, were you thinking like raised beds with flowers in them? Raised bed with some sort of landscaping in there. But how high does it have to be? The idea of the visual, of being able to see through is to see as you're driving out to be able to see on the sidewalk some kid running. I understand that. Uncentrolled, 20 feet ahead of his mother screaming at him to slow down. You know the salt spreader that's on the back of the little, it has to be higher than that. Which, what, a couple, maybe 18 inches? And if it doesn't, it could be potentially like several planters. So there would still be visibility between them as long as... And with that you wouldn't necessarily have to put in a gate and a fence to provide pedestrian access like we talked briefly about. Right, because it's free flow. Because it's a free flow. Yeah, that's nice. So as the... When I'm open to recommendation, really, what's most important to me is to be able to have a project that people are comfortable passing through. So do you think that planters, am I hearing planters here? Or shrubs? Do you want to make a recommendation or do you want to see a redesign? Or how are you comfortable dealing with this precision? I'd like to make my opinion a recommendation. I mean, three beds raised, maybe 18 inches high plus or minus. I don't know about vegetation wise. I have no clue. It's not my area. It's whatever is self-resistant. And would you want to see it? As a year round, or would you want to replant? It's a matter of how much maintenance you want to put into it. I guess if it was going to be plantings, I would want something that was pretty resilient. I wouldn't want to have to replant. I'd put something in that was, you know, pretty rugged. Winter, summer, a survivor. Yeah. Yeah, that would be the idea. So raised beds, 18 inches high plus or minus, some sort of vegetation that is self-resistant and that perforations through it that allow people to go through. So maybe it's three or four beds that allow for a five-foot opening. When you say raised beds, are you thinking like planter boxes? Could be. Could be. I know you're going, that's right. Yeah, I'm not going to simplify this with my suggestions, but I think it's a unique opportunity to do something pretty cool and do something that has some artistic value to it that is possibly more interesting than some planter boxes, but that would require a little bit more thought and some sort of demonstration of what that may be. And so that's not helpful for moving this process along with the moment. So you're voting for coming back, basically? I would vote, yeah. I mean, I think, I feel like there's a way that we could approve a project with some sort of like space holder and a default if and when the applicant doesn't want to resubmit, but feels like, okay, this is, a planter box is good enough, great. But if they want to resubmit with a new idea, there's room to do that. I imagine you're not trying to do this next week. Are you going to try and pave this winter? No, it makes this winter. No, it would be, we wouldn't be doing anything until late April, early May. Right. Yeah. So maybe it makes sense just to table it and come back? Yeah, I think we should give a nod to some direction that says, yes, this is a viable project. This, you know, this is the direction. I mean, I think we owe in that. What do you want to do, Josie? Before it becomes a viable project, will the public have a chance to weigh in on this before a vote on a viable project? Yes, I mean, if they come back with some other suggestions, we can, you know, look at their proposal and then take any public comment before we do a final vote on the project. Well, and since he's here today, we should... Can I? Go ahead. Yeah, just come up to the microphone, please. Introduce yourself. Absolutely. Richard Scheer, and I live at 39 Luma Street, near Main Street. And in the interest of fairness, my wife has a downtown store. The two dogs are part of our family. I see this. We, Josie might be here a lot more frequently than we were. Eight years ago, we were here once to get a sign in front of the quirky pet, and we came back for a flag that didn't get approved. But boy, to say that what happened during the days when the flag wasn't approved means the flag wouldn't be approved today just doesn't hold to me. I mean, it's times change. Circumstances change. And my feeling and our feeling, my wife and I, we stand by the public works. We do not want to see ingress, egress to that back parking area in any way impeded. I mean, that's a serious issue. I sat on the parking committee for several years. We looked into that, and the Transportation Committee has been looking into that. And the master plan, the city master plan, the downtown master plan looks into that. Anything that might jeopardize ingress, egress to that back area should be taken seriously. It should under no circumstances be seven spaces. If it is to be, it should be five spaces. And if it's five spaces, then your discussion of that fence up front really has very little meaning because the fence can move back to in front of those cars. You have to sit next to the sidewalk. And the fence, if it's sitting back, doesn't have to be four and a half feet tall. It can be eight feet tall. And you can hide those cars, you know, with a six to eight foot tall fence sitting further back in the lot. That leads to another question. Again, this seems so premature to me in a process sense. I don't see planning weighing in on this. I don't see transportation weighing in on this. When planning's been talking for the last seven years about infill in the downtown, commercial infill in the downtown. And it was never the intent to have a street side parking lot on either state or main street. That was never the intent of infill housing. So basically, I would like to see this tabled. If it's not tabled, I will challenge it to design review in order to slow the process down so that planning can weigh in the planning committee and so the transportation committee can weigh in if it comes in at seven spaces rather than five. If it comes in at five spaces, there's no reason for the transportation committee to weigh in. But there's every reason for the planning committee to inform you of what their intent was, not only in terms of infill now, but of the master downtown plan that's being proposed. In none of those plans that went in this chamber a few weeks ago was there a downtown parking lot on main street, albeit even a small parking lot. None of those plans included that. And it does change the aesthetic of downtown that we're trying and investing mightily to achieve. So in my mind, as I told Jesse when I walked in, this is not the question of five parking spaces. He's free to do with his land as he sees fit if they're filtered off and blocked off so that you're not looking at them. But it's the question of whether this meets the integrity of our downtown vision. And we have DPW weighing in on this, but we don't have planning weighing in. And if it went before design review or development review, I should say I'm certain that planning would weigh in on this. And if planning says that my view of infill is wrong, so be it. My view is wrong then. But if planning were to say that my view is correct, it seems to me that this is premature. So to be talking about what kind of betting we have next to the sidewalk presupposes seven spaces. Otherwise, that kid running there is not an issue at all because you'll be able to see that as you come out of that alley because there'll be nothing there impeding it. So that's where I saw things going off rail a little bit and you getting ahead of your skis is talking about this as if that fence up there were the only option in this when it's not. And so a healthy discussion of holistically what the plan also might look like might be in order. And it's appropriate to this, having served on, having sat before and seen my wife present before the committee, it's the kind of thing that I think the committee should be doing. I mean, you even asked a question that none of these members were on at the time eight years ago. But I was sitting there listening as someone said, what does a red dog mean? What's the wooden red dog for? Which is a representation in the window. And there was even a discussion of the molding there. I mean, you have gotten into micro detail before, but in this case, it's more of a question of macro detail. Not discussing the proposal as submitted, but discussing the proposal as it could be within the parameter of five rather than seven. And again, as she said, that's DPW's purview and DPW has made their stand. So I assume that seven will not be and that five will be. So does the design for seven, is that the only design possible when the design comes back for five? So I would send this back for reconsideration given the new parameters that DPW has set, which we think are perfectly normal parameters. You do not want cars blocking the ingress egress onto Main Street from that back parking lot under any circumstance. That's my view on this. I thought that we were going with five. I mean, that's basically what we've come realize today with DPW is insisting on this. That's within that package. It's the comments from DPW. Thank you for that, Richard. I appreciate the time. I don't intend to move the fence or any kind of screening from the front of the lot back to closer to where five spaces may be. I want to keep that fencing right up where I've proposed it to be. And that's for snow removal. And so that I have snow removal in the front area there. And an eight foot fence though, I understand what you're trying to achieve there. And the back is too high and feels dangerous to me as far as obfuscating people's views in and out of there as far as folks coming in and out of this lot or otherly. So that's not a consideration of mine. If you're not able to use the full seven spaces, do you have you thought about any alternatives to the use of those two spaces behind either in the summer for a patio of some kind since you came part there to find some other use for that? Or if in fact you did move the fence back, is there space up front to have a food cart or something there? I'm not really sure. Those comments only get passed around between D.P.W. and Jesse and myself today. I'm just throwing that out as looking for a use for those spaces maybe seasonally since you came part there. Sure. I will think of something. Or not, I guess. I need to decide if a five space parking lot is really viable because based on what I have for parking there right now it would be five is a small net gain and it's an expensive proposition to grade it and pave it and line it and put in whatever Ben is going to put together here. I know it's going to be genius. It's not going to be free. And so really I don't know. Maybe without seven it doesn't make sense. I'm not 100% sure. But I'm pretty sure that at only five it's tight for me. And so that is a discussion outside of the aesthetics of this that I will take up with public works and planning and Richard and whomever and maybe we can come up with something workable and maybe we just have what's there. That's obviously not what I think anybody wants. Okay, so table it, you can go back to the drawing board both finances and design issues and take a look at what your options are. As far as screening as proposed whether it's on the street where it's moved back from there do you have guidance for me if we're going to be coming back here as far as the aesthetic of things not necessarily the location are you thinking that the planters are the move or do we have another idea that is preferable? I mean I have all kinds of ideas percolating but this is the first I've seen it and I haven't really had a chance. If you were to move it back and obviously as cars move forward like you were talking about now you're ahead of any fencing or screening you're ahead of that so now you have clear view of the sidewalk depending on what else might be proposed in that front section if you were to move the fence back so that would change the requirements as far as screening of the parking. I mean it's still maybe I don't understand clearly enough I mean it's still technically in the front yard you're still limited to four and a half feet height so technically in the front because it's not really a side yard or rear yard fence or wall but you have some other options for the type of fencing because if it's farther back it's farther back because like you said cars can get in front of it before they're in the pedestrian or vehicular way so you have some other options. The other thing by planting and just experience it's tough to find anything you can put on a planter that will survive more than a year or two. I'm not in disagreement with you about that. If you put planters in a planter box there's not enough soil in there it's not going to survive you might get two years out of it that's it I mean we've done evergreens and large planters big deep ones two, three feet deep two, three years and it's called evergreen not ever brown but if you were to move back you might be able to plant a low growing shrub and get it down into the ground and you can plant something I mean we've got use that are still green after 25 years that are planted into the ground because you have enough soil and they survive pretty well in the winter so again that gives you some other options as far as screening you could actually have plants a line of shrubs or something again set back far enough so now that the cars are driving ahead of that and that gives you an option to maybe have another use of the space between the sidewalk and that screening Benches would be nice I was thinking that too Benches facing the sidewalk Benches and food cart Food cart benches something like you've done in the past I mean I do take Richard's point that like being able to get through here is nice especially if there's like traffic kind of parked here that it's like tight for a pedestrian to walk through there making it possible for somebody to walk through there if it's going to be a parking lot and not a building that you wouldn't be able to walk through and this is supposed some amount of this has to remain open it feels like it would be nice to have that be permeable for somebody to walk through I mean your spaces are 8 feet 6 inches wide so 2 spaces is roughly 17 feet so that gives a significant amount of space to create a small park lot Can I ask a question Jesse could that be an ancillary for Charlie O's? Can you come up to the microphone so the public can hear? You understand commercial zoning I don't could that be an ancillary patio for Charlie O's there's a business in between? I don't know with the new zoning we have been approved for that with older zoning but then some neighbors who weren't particularly fond of us decided to appeal it Neighbors who weren't me? Neighbors who weren't even you That's also liquor license issues even more than zoning Right, how do you get the liquor from one building? There was I realize that this is not what we're talking about there was a shuttling agreement that we came up with that seemed to be acceptable to the Department of Liquor Control I mean how far away because like positive price I mean across the sidewalk with it but it's right in front of their building It would have been I guess 19 feet 6 inches Yeah So anyway do you want to table it? Seems like we'll table it I guess So to table we need to do it to date certain to then come back So two weeks from today or the first What is two weeks from today? 6 and 14 is 20 Well yeah it's just a 21st It's a Tuesday meeting or the one after that is February 3rd Okay I can't make the 21st meeting Okay So the February 3rd Still gives you a couple of months away anyway Yes So we are tabling this and are you looking for anything in particular from me other than a definitive new screening plan and a hard answer about number of spaces? Yes Those are the two screening options Yep And again as Department of Public Works is requiring a maximum of five spaces based on the amount of property you have So based on five spaces do you want to bring in whatever you might propose patio benches or just leave that open? Have something Yeah Okay I think that's enough guidance I'll try to bring back something that makes you all happy Well it's got to work for you too Exactly I won't bring back something that I'm unhappy with Okay we didn't think you would So do I hear a motion to table this application until February? I second it Second? All in favor of tabling? Okay Okay, thank you all for your time See you in February See you in February Maybe I'll see you around on the street Okay Thank you Thank you, Jesse Thanks guys We don't have an applicant for anything in the street Do you want to give me a minute to run down and check my email or do you just What do you do in that situation? It depends Sometimes they go down and see My biggest problem right now is my self-hump and quickly die too I could try and call them downstairs or we can just tell them they have to come back for the next meeting I would tell them that they have to come back It's kind of like, you know If you, well So what's skinny and heavy going for a vent on the side of the building? Are they moving? No They're there That's where they are That's where the kitchen is So this is the entrance to the cellular when AT&T This is where their kitchen is Back behind the area where you order And they need to put in a new vent So the actual fan out is up on the roof where you can't see it But the duct work This is the only place where the duct work can come out Yep So I had suggested They had said that they were going to paint it Is that what they still ask them to consider other options But I haven't turned back on them Yep, it's still the same thing They were going to try and paint it to match the building Meredith, sorry I know it's not my turn anymore You're going to email me all of that information I'll follow up with you tomorrow Cool And we can always meet and discuss options That's great And we said the third Yes Really? Wow This looks terrible This is not possible So they are proposing painting it to match the building I went back to them because I know we've had issues before where chimneys have been painted It avoids any warranty And this is very similar to a chimney Maybe it's not quite as hot but it's going to be pretty hot This is a public art project I actually suggested to them whether or not they can do something to actually make it more like public art Do they have venting now? I honestly don't know I don't know what they have for venting right now I mean, there's an existing just their vent, I guess right there where that's coming out Existing rumor But that really wrecks the entire facade Yeah Well, it may be an opportunity to fix it but not with just the I don't know if they're trying to do higher heat stuff in there and that's why they need the new ventilation system Well, run it through the building through the roof outside the pool For some reason they can't do it that way, according to this We explored other routes for the vent and there are no viable alternatives That seems hard to believe That's almost got awful I don't think that you could pass it It's awful Ah Do you want me to run downstairs and see if I have any emails from them or try to reach them or They already got it Maybe they reconsidered Maybe, I mean, they've had notices a few different I emailed them and then Audra reminded them about the meeting I think it's really it would be really unfortunate So I can always go to them with that reading from the DRC and see if they can be denied somehow Yeah, I mean Thank you, Jesse Thanks, Jesse It's the same color It's not like it's not going to be noticeable No It's No, I think it would have to have some I mean, I think it's a terrible idea but some public art sort of way of making it read not venting but something interesting coming off the building and that's basically what I said to the doctor I saw this and I went to Mike and asked them what Would it even be better if they had some kind of flat panel vent that could come out of the sign pan even if they're projected slightly That would be better than I mean, this thing is visible from an airplane I guess I don't know enough about venting but why would it have to go all the way up to the building I mean, it's often that's the way it works in an effort to get them to heat the grease and all that stuff Yeah, I'm thinking it's because of what's actually coming out of it Right If it's grease-laden, that's an issue and distance, a little distance from the source to the fat is also another issue but directly up is probably the better way I'm assuming the old coffee corner location where the vent's out of the sign where the stone is The grill's right there And the grill's right there I'm assuming that I'm not sure if that's grandfathered or if that's still possible I don't see how it could have been and it was a new business that went in But wasn't the vent the vent was there before Right They still have to be code Yep, and that's all building code Right So I don't know if they didn't change anything inside with the if they didn't change anything I'm not sure that they'd have to meet new building code if all the stoves and ventilation system were the same Well, it was still a renovation technically I think we ought to since they're not here I think we'll pass them the invitation and have them maybe advise them to come to the next meeting with maybe some other alternatives so we'll get ideas It's one thing if you can do one in the back alley but this is What is the number seven here? Recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas including gateway views of the city and state house This is state and main Right on the front of a building It might make it difficult for us to enforce other rules in the future if we let that one throw Harmony of exterior design with other properties in the district Maybe talking about the front facades of other properties And again Recognition of and respect for view quarters This is one of the main quarters coming in whether you're coming in a main street approaching state or coming the other way or coming downstate approaching main I mean that's right there What's preventing them and I'm not sure what the ceiling is whether it's a suspended ceiling in the AT&T space adjacent to it What's preventing them from going across the ceiling just a straight shot right out the side of the building towards the church towards Bethany I don't know the architecture I mean the other thing is the whole building is owned by one person Yes So you would think that they'd be able to work with other tenants especially in the ceiling space Again, what do they have now or are they not required to have that now? I don't know I don't know Do you remember it was the vents that caught on fire at the head of the woods in Burlington? Maybe Because they didn't bother to clean it frequently And again that was a long run Yeah Sort of like a long run up the building Okay And again what happens to warm grease when it goes outside and goes shooting up That far 30 some 40 feet of cold metal Yeah, I haven't The The building inspector has been out about as long as I've been out between illnesses and Vacation time So I don't know if he's even had a chance to look at this application So we're going to bite him as well You have the person that got it Yeah, that's Yeah, I'll have Kristen and Pop Gowens, he could be get it to double check on that issue Because it seems like a really long way with lots of corners for a vent to be running for a rest on Okay, so they'll come back the next meeting or sometime after Yep And the next item on the agenda is approved in minutes of the meeting on December the 2nd because everybody who was here then had a chance to look at the minutes I did and I have a couple of grammatical things I don't write the minutes I keep them but I don't know how to catch it So don't feel bad I'm fine with any of it It seems, yeah Let me just point to it It's easier to just point to it There are existing lighting so a separate application doesn't need it should be there is And in the next paragraph optional changes are for a darker shade and then it goes on and says is allowed You don't need two verbs there Optional change for a darker shade is allowed will be fine What can I say Oh, no, that's okay There are times I catch those things and times that I'm not as careful as I should be Attorneys are always so careful with their wording Isn't this strange? And our commas No good, but thank you for catching those Any other comments, changes? Other than that, I think it's fine Okay, do I hear a motion to approve the minutes? So moved Second All in favor of approving the December 2nd minutes Minutes are approved Anybody have anything else to add? Otherwise, do I? I'm sorry I did send out an email towards the end of today sending out the public notice for the January 27th Planning Commission hearing on the proposal for revised design review regulations and the amended overlay district boundaries So take a look at that You know, look through if you can make the hearing, great But it will also, after that this chance for public comment filled the opportunities where Design Review Committee or Planning Commission can meet in Planning Commission Historic Preservation Commission can meet and discuss what the public's comments were and either Would you re-send that? The last one that says attached car and there was no attachment There wasn't an attachment? What did I send it for? Not a line Okay, sorry about that That's okay I will back because I went to three committees Or if it was there I couldn't access it for some reason So, I appreciate it Thank you So again, next meeting the 21st Tuesday Tuesday It shows up in line Notice of public hearing Yeah, word attachment Okay I'll re-send it to you Okay, thanks Sorry Do I hear a motion to adjourn if nobody has anything else? Second Second All in favor of adjourn but raise your hand Meeting is adjourned Thank you