 Good morning a good afternoon or good evening depending on where you're joining us from today My name is Andrew Wilder. I'm the vice president at the Asia Center at the US Institute of Peace I want to thank all of you for taking the time to join us today But a special word of thanks to Ambassador Rao for taking the time to join us for this important and timely discussion Ambassador Rao is one of India's foremost diplomats and foreign policy experts having served as foreign secretary Ambassador to China and ambassador to the United States Today, she joins us to discuss India's foreign policy outlook during a time of rapid change in the region a Border dispute with China turned deadly in June putting India's relationship with Beijing at a new low The confrontation has raised concerns over what the world can expect from Asia's two major powers especially as geopolitical tensions rise Intra-Afghan peace talks between Negotiating team from the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan and the Taliban began over the weekend Offering a glimmer of hope of peace in Afghanistan after 40 years of violent conflict India's Minister of External Affairs addressed the talks and offered support India worries that a future political dispensation in Kabul with too much Taliban influence could hurt India and India's interests India's relationship with his neighbors are also under some strain In addition to the tensions with China already mentioned. There's of course the perennial Indo-Pac-Tent conflict Exacerbated by the situation in Kashmir an amendment to India's citizenship law sparked protests in Bangladesh And the border dispute with Nepal has created friction in that relationship as well Meanwhile the United States and its allies encourage India to play a more active role in the Indo-Pacific Amid their own rising tensions with China All this takes place amid the corona virus pandemic with over 5 million cases India has the second worst outbreak in the world and perhaps faces the most higher economic impact How will India's foreign policy outlook adopt to the changing geopolitical order? These are some of the questions we'll examine today with Ambassador Rao After her opening remarks my colleague from Singh will moderate a discussion with her We invite all of you to take part in that discussion during the question-and-answer time You can ask a question by using the chat box function Located just below the video screen on the US IP event page where you're watching today's event from We ask that you please include your name and specify where you're joining us from in your questions And you can also engage with us and each other on Twitter, but today's hashtag Narupa morale us IP. That's hashtag Narupa morale us IP Thank you again for joining us today and please join me in welcoming Ambassador Rao Thank You vice president Wilder. It's a pleasure and a privilege to join all of you I am speaking from Bangalore and I believe I Our discussions will be interesting. There is so much to talk about I'm looking really looking forward to the discussion. I was just reflecting on the title of our Talk and the webinar today and you use the term inflection point and I completely agree that we are at an inflection point in foreign policy and as far as the situation in our neighborhood Surrounding India is concerned and why do we say that first of all, of course the COVID the universe of COVID has Upturned everything everything that all our calculations have been upturned and The situation has unforeseen ramifications for all of us particularly in the region and Talking about the larger environment that surrounds us. There's a kind of a geopolitical recession I think that was the term that Ian Bremer used recently Certainly, there is a retrogression as far as the economy is concerned So you have COVID and you have the economy and then you have China on our borders So it's a kind of trifecta so many crossroads and so little sense of the road ahead and Unfortunately, this is no brave new world Now foreign policy for India is not isolated from any of these factors Post COVID. What is the situation going to be? We ask there is no rainbow No part of gold at the end of that rainbow. There is dysfunction. There is dystopia. There is chaos You have the US-China Confrontation accentuated competition Confrontation and then you have global economies taking years. They will take years to recover You will see more nativism and more populism You will see many polls vying for influence many leagues of authoritarian gentlemen and the weakening of multilateralism Now as far as India is concerned, where does that leave us? What is the primary goal of our foreign policy? Obviously, it is to make India strong and more resilient Obviously, we will focus our energies on our neighborhood We would like to ensure that diplomacy works to resolve outstanding problems involving our peace and security Ensuring that external balancing takes the pressure off threats to our sovereignty on our land borders We would like to build more strength and substance and resilience into our Indo-Pacific policy our defense and security partnerships in the maritime domain, especially in the Indian Ocean With the reinforcing of the geographical assets that we are naturally Endowed with and ultimately promoting the values of openness transparency With like-minded democracies particularly with close partners like the United States with with whom we share a global comprehensive strategic partnership Now vice president Wilder mentioned China what really has happened as far as China is concerned Who lost China maybe the answer is China lost China really Let me give you a little background of our relationship with China Over the last three decades, we had built a structure We called it a strategic cooperative partnership for peace and prosperity with China It's our largest neighbor. We share a land border of 3,500 kilometers Almost 3,500 kilometers with China. It's a troubled border We have an unresolved boundary question between the two countries Numerous efforts still ongoing Have existed we've tried both sides to solve the question peacefully We fought a brief war in 1962 in the fall of 1962 between October and November We've resumed diplomatic relations at the ambassadorial level in the mid 70s from the early 80s onwards we endeavored once again To put in place efforts to resolve the boundary issue in a fair and reasonable and mutually acceptable fashion The visit of our Prime Minister the then Prime Minister Rajeev Gandhi to Beijing in the December of 1988 Launched a period in our relationship something like the Nixon opening to China an opening to China where While we continued our efforts to resolve the boundary issue We also built a structure and a process of relations in other spheres particularly in the trade and economic sphere And also in terms of cultural and educational Linkages even military to military ties and of course a high-level political dialogue Which continued which continued really up till until October last year when the second of the so-called Informal summits between Prime Minister Modi and President Xi Jinping took place in the South Indian city of Chennai But what we've seen with China under President Xi Jinping is a very muscular assertive China They say they're striving for achievement. They want to achieve a China dream They want to see China's rejuvenation, but how it has translated into the rest of the region and for the rest of us is a new Chinese aggressiveness a Policy of attrition as far as China's neighbors are concerned when it comes to territorial disputes I not only refer to the maritime disputes in the east and South China Sea, but also on the land border with India and Simultaneously with that the China-Pakistan relationship is also another thorn in the flesh for us in India India is what it was the first country to express its Reservations and yes its opposition to the Belt and Road Initiative with particular reference to the China-Pakistan Economic corridor, which as you know aligns through territory Under occupation of Pakistan in Kashmir territory that is claimed by India and along the line of actual control between India and China Particularly in the Union territory the Indian Union territory of Ladakh. We've seen increased Chinese activity. We've seen An upsetting of the status quo. We've seen Chinese transgressions in Four to five pockets along the line of actual control and a massing of Chinese troops men and material Along the line of actual control So the whole situation is very kinetic and as you know on the 15th of June We had the incident at Galwan in Ladakh where the lives of 20 Indian Army Personnel were lost and this was the first time that we had such a loss of life of such an extent since the operations in the Natula Pass of Sikkim in 1967 and from 1985 onwards from October sorry October 1975 onwards the Border between the two countries had been quiet not a single shot had been fired in the border areas from October 1975 So a period an interregnum of 45 years was finally ended with the bloodshed in Galwan So that was a very serious inflection point a turning point Almost a breaking point. I would say China this practiced a lot of ambiguity and ambivalence when it comes to defining the line of actual control between the two countries and I refer particularly to the western sector as you know There are four sectors of the India China border the western sector the middle sector The Sikkim sector and the eastern sector the problems that we face now are in the western sector of the boundary So this policy of attrition that China has practiced literally stringing us along Is worrisome and it has introduced great complications in the relationship and the impact of what happened in Galwan and what is happening today In the areas along the line of actual control in the border areas is having repercussions on all other aspects of the relationship And you've seen it play out in the trade and economics We are particularly and also, you know public opinion in the country in India has turned Completely against China as a result and I'm sure you are aware of this as far as other countries are concerned and within the United States itself I know there is Basically an operational bipartisan consensus when it comes to China policy And I think it really reflects the concerns that we feel about the new China That is on the global stage today So the rest of the world Assesses China's actions really by and large and if you look at most of the Asian countries around us They feel China's attitude reflects an unmitigated belligerence on territorial issues on the sovereignty issue and There is really no attempt to seek Painstaking peaceful negotiations diplomacy in other words to resolve these problems So that is why the situation is so concerning and so serious and which is why we're here to discuss it also today Now strategic autonomy is something that India prides itself about But recent events concerning China have really seen an inevitable thrust in India towards greater closeness With the United States we can of course discuss that in in the rest of the webinar You have the quad of course of the United States Japan Australia and India which has been revived which has been reincarnated and Hopefully will be increasingly Rejuvenated as we go forward But let's also remind ourselves as far as India is concerned the problem that we have with China the sovereignty problem The territorial integrity problem is basically a continental problem. It's a problem on our land borders It's problem along the high Himalayas our Contest or our disputes with China if you Define them in the literal sense are not in the maritime domain But with Chinese assertiveness and the growth in Chinese military and naval power The challenge to us is how we address the looming presence of China in our neighborhood We've seen how China is so active among our smaller South Asian neighbors I'm leaving Pakistan aside for the moment Pakistan is the bigger problem But even where the smaller South Asian countries are concerned the Chinese presence is increasingly looming Chinese trade and China's economic involvement in our region has grown phenomenally and so the challenge is not only how to Calibrate our neighborhood policy, but also how we marshal and husband our defense and security essence Assets in order to create for instance better maritime domain awareness Including underwater surveillance Interoperability with our defense and security partners all the ramifications of what the quad can be and should be and Whether we can also expand the definition of the quad to cover areas of technology infrastructure humanitarian assistance and dealing with disasters and How India is to better safeguard its Geographical assets in the southern Indian Indian Ocean around the coastline of India What are the economic measures that we have to take to deal with the crisis vis-a-vis China? How do we build and buttress what the prime minister has called self-reliance at Manil Bharta? How are we to better safeguard our interests and how are we to create? Strategic alignments with our friends and partners in order to safeguard these economic interests because they equally impinge on National security today, and how did all this come about did our policy towards China over the last few years? Did we calibrate it well enough? Did we see all that was coming? Did we were we not cognizant of the risks the existential risks involved in our China policy? Did the structure of relations that we built with China's and since 1988 serve us? So this is all together truly an inflection point in the relationship I'll stop here because I know that Vikram has a lot of questions prepared for me to answer and I look forward to the Discussion over to you Vikram. Thank you Well, thank you Ambassador Rao and what a pleasure to have you it's been far too long We were last saw each other in January last year in Bangalore and It I look forward to the time that we could do something like this together again. We're really grateful for you Joining us, you know, I want to start with what's been the thrust of your discussion It is a new it is a new reality between India and China and the the relevance of that for the world is Significant. This is the both the two largest countries on earth both nuclear powers sitting with the dispute here and really impacting the entire future of the of the region depending on how they are able to manage These tensions. I thought I would ask you to make some personal Reflections you just ended asking where we did we manage it correctly? Did we make that we you know, where how did we it get? To this point, and I think many countries feel like China has been stringing them along as you as you said and sort of Yeah, waging a war of attrition when it comes to these territorial disputes and trying to just steadily gain the advantage Now you are one of the most experienced India hands when it comes to dealing with China You are working on a book on India Chinese diplomatic history from the period around the around the war after the post-war period and Up to the up to the India Sino-Indian war And of course you served as ambassador in Beijing and we've recently seen sort of this highly assertive wolf warrior diplomacy from From Chinese colleagues, right? Many of whom many of us have dealt with over the years And now we've seen them sort of out there with this really aggressive Stance backed up by really what feel like aggressive moves on the ground Can you give us some reflections on your experience? interacting with China with your Chinese counterparts over the years and managing these issues and how you see things having changed Between a time of building a constructive partnership to now what seems like managing a crisis Thank You, Vikram. Well, I Would like to start At the beginning I mean I'm talking of 1988 when we began with the prime ministerial visit to China that Extraordinary leap of faith that India took in making that visit at a time when we had similar tensions along the border as we see today We had a Chinese intrusion in the eastern sector in Arunachal Padesh in the area We call some their own two intentions were running high But this was of course before social media before the new new You know communications revolution that is completely overwhelmed most of us So we were able to contain and manage that dispute. I think in a in a more In a more successful way, let's say in retrospect and of course the visit that Mr. Gandhi Rajiv Gandhi undertook to China resulted in that breakthrough that Decision on both sides to build the structure of relations that essentially was an operating system That was valid until let's say till galvan happened Although it was beginning to fray at the edges because what we saw big when we started out in 1988 Essentially our GDPs were at the same level, you know the per capita income was more or less at the same level our levels of development were We're almost matched and then you saw China, you know make these enormous strides and their system I suppose is so different from India's the way they were able to manage the pace and dictate the pace of change was, you know It was very different from what we in democratic in India Do and and the way we do are, you know our development and the way we administer our policies So comparisons are odious. I don't want to make them But the fact is that China did make, you know great progress its GDP grew five times over India's its military budget grew phenomenally and It became the leading trading nation in the world, you know, its presence on the global stage just multiplied in terms of proportion and presence so phenomenally and with that I think came a lot of hubris A lot of assertiveness a lot of aggressive nationalism and compounded. I think now by, you know, the leadership of Xi Jinping which is all about striving for achievement, which is all about rejuvenation and They move with a great sense of grievance It's as if the rest of the world has denied China its place in the world, which is not really the case You know, I think for instance take the united states and with the opening of president with The opening that president Nixon was able to achieve towards china china really gotten many many Senses a first-class ticket ride. I think it really got a ticket to ride Many countries don't have that ticket to ride, but China did get that ticket to ride and and it and it you know, built its strength on that basis and and Power and influence all around as we see today So over the years what we saw was that not only did china See much less reasonable about settling disputes and about negotiating settlements it began to be much more strident about Asserting its claims it was so it was so much more biased and so much more irresponsible about about how it Looked at south asia, especially at pakistan You saw the way that it seemed to support pakistan Irrationally when it came to the listing of masood azar for instance And how long it took for that listing to take place under the un sanctions committee because china was the holdout and When it came to you know, one would have expected china to to exert far more rational influence on pakistan in order to restrain it from being the kind of Cross-border terrorism supporting country that it has been vis-a-vis in bia So china did not act In consonance with and in proportion to the power and influence that it could have exerted all across our region So in that sense it has been a supporter of authoritarian governments It has not been transparent about the administering of its development projects under the bri Smaller countries have just run up so much debt vis-a-vis china They've had to sacrifice sovereignty in some cases as srilanka did have to do vis-a-vis When it had to allow china a 99 year lease of the port. So all these are disquieting Signs of china's activities in the region Very different from the kind of self image that it has of itself as far as china is concerned The concept of original sin doesn't apply to it Even when it comes to how it describes the situation along the line of actual control with india They're always talking about the rights and wrongs and how you know, the blame has to be attributed to to india Which which is so difficult for us to accept and for the rest of the world also to believe I think the way, you know the the tide of Public opinion global opinion has moved in favor of india. You compare it with 1962 and now I think the balance of opinion across the world Favors india on this issue and I think it has a lot to do With china's attitude and the way it is perceived to be Following this the certainness and this muscular nationalism and this kind of patriotic zealotry That you see Written all across the face of china today, which doesn't bode well. I believe for peace in our region Yeah, it's absolutely true when you it's very stark when you when you when you lay it all out That way you realize that A part of the chinese attitude seems to be that that not much that the world can do about it Even as it bands together and to object that they don't expect there to be Much that can be done to to stop their pushes all around their periphery Into their into the into disputed territories I wanted to ask you a little bit about how The deepening china pakistan partnership particularly cpac, which you mentioned before But also this the the question of you know Where china would be visa be pakistan in terms of any kind of military confrontation or any crisis that are that would arise Where that how what what is the dilemma that presents to india of the deep that deepening chinese pakistan partnership and And particularly how do indian strategists view this situation of having essentially a hot potentially a hot conflict on both sides Up in the in the far north of the country with tensions with china and the potential for flare-ups and in Light of control tensions with pakistan Well, I think the the first point i'd like to make is that our relationship with pakistan of course is fraught with a lot of complexity and You know that underlying tension in the relationship is always there and you know From our point of view and we've said it out clear and very very Vocally as far as the rest of the world is concerned that We are confronted with a situation where a neighboring country of ours pakistan has has Consciously pursued a policy of fermenting terrorist activity across the line of control in kashmir as also along the border with india and This situation has festered for 70 long years It's not as if we didn't try to mend fences with pakistan Numerous such attempts have been made in the past and have come to naught because every time and including with prime minister morley You know when he was inaugurated in 2014. He invited all the south asian heads of state Or heads of government to come to the ceremony including prime minister navash rief then prime minister of pakistan and then Again, he visited prime minister sharif in pakistan as you know The a year later and then it was followed with the attacks on the patan court air base And then you know there's been a steady steady descent therefore into more and more tension and The situation has just not been able to mend itself because of the fact that india has just not I mean whatever we have done In terms of pursuing a policy of peace and negotiation with pakistan It's come to naught because it hasn't been reciprocated Adequately sufficiently reasonably from the pakistan side So that's where the relationship with pakistan rests at the moment if you can use the word rest And then you have china china is the second point the china is a close Friend an ally an iron brother of pakistan and you wonder why china has such few friends It's few the the friends it has i mean it's only friend perhaps is pakistan even north korea I think is somewhat ambivalent when it comes to china today So china has very few friends and china has to really do some soul searching as far as that is concerned What are china's foreign policy successes? I mean it has used its deep pockets. No doubt to Build infrastructure the bri is its own You know attempt to articulate chinese power and influence across the world and therefore with pakistan today China pakistan economic corridor builds china even more of that influence more of that control It needs pakistan obviously to It needs that that controlling factor as far as pakistan is concerned because it is Obviously looking at the situation in its own shinjiang province and the way it is treated wagers And it wants to make sure that there's no cross border problems created by pakistan It wants to reach out to the arabian sea. So therefore the port of guadar. So china is obviously Pursuing its own self-interest and also able to control the pakistani Mindspace through you know the economic and military and security influence that it brings to bear on on pakistan Now does that all translate into? Further complications as far as our border areas are concerned that was your question Now as far as the front with china is concerned the front in the dark Now it's true that after the abrogation of article 370 of the indian constitution Last last year in august last year the chinese reacted quite adversely to the indian government's decision to create two union territories one of jammu and kashmiri and the other of ladakh And i don't want to go into those details, but there was a clear attempt by china after that not only to Speak very stridently against this move But also in fact to take it to the un security council in an attempt to internationalize the dispute so you know china's you know credentials, let us say as as a balanced Observer and as a balanced Neighbor when it came to the disputes between india and pakistan was that image was completely shattered I think by those events post august 2019 so today when you talk of the kinetic situation along the line of actual control the first question That comes to mind of many observers is that in the event god forbid of a conflagration of a conflict breaking out What I mean will the pakistanis be up to mischief and what is the china? What is going to be the chinese government's attitude on that? Well, I think You know our imagination may be running a little too far ahead as far as that is concerned I think india has been making conscious efforts and the chinese too. We've been talking about disengagement We've been talking of de-escalation in the areas around the line of actual control I don't believe the intention is to enter into Conflict on these issues because we have had china and india and china over the last 30 years We did build a kind of a You know undergirding of this relationship that did have mechanisms for building confidence for promoting peace and tranquility The military to military level contacts the political level dialogue So I think there is a certain at least some element of resilience in this relationship And that I hope will stand us in some good stead as we move forward so that the pakistanis don't make mischief I mean they continue I mean they continue to be ceasefire violations along the line of control in jammu and kashmir with pakistan They continue to try and push the militants across the border. There's no doubt about that We have to be You know eternal vigilance as they say is the price of liberty as it was so that eternal vigilance cannot be relaxed As far as pakistan is concerned, but i'm quite confident that there's not going to be a two front sort of Exploding of tensions At this point of time Because efforts are ongoing with china to try and reduce These tensions that we have with that country with china and the two ministers the foreign ministers met as you know in moscow a few days ago last week and You know, they've resolved both sides have resolved to to infuse further confidence building into the process and to see how we can diffuse tensions and make sure that The winter months, you know Don't see a further build up a further escalation of tensions the situation is continues to be tense But I believe You know, we will I think we should be able to hold this in the way it is at the moment and There should be no further deterioration it seems like the it seems like the um agreement or statement between uh Eternal affairs minister jaishankar and chinese foreign minister wangyi was uh was intended to sort of Freeze things it didn't really necessarily give a path to a way down but it reaffirmed the various mechanisms that the two countries have for Managing their tensions and committed to using those to to find a way forward So but I think it you know, maybe it leads to sort of a plateau of tensions that stay much higher than they used to be So that baseline obviously means increased risk of flare-ups I could go down this road for a long time But I wanted to turn to the rest of the neighborhood also. So, um, you know the and and I have Questions fiends and in some cases they echo where I was going anyway, so I'm gonna I'm gonna start weaving some of those into the conversation so, um, you know, my next Thought was to ask you Sort of about the you know, multi administration came in with a neighborhood first policy And as andrew mentioned in our introduction, uh, a lot of things Uh, there've been there've been little incidents where it seemed like there's some smaller troubles in neighborhood ties So a border dispute with napal that seemed a little unexpected Tons of progress with bungalow daysh including the resolution of all outstanding territorial disputes with bungalow daysh But then kind of upset when the cia came in and they looked to the bungalow daysh Like a whole bunch of people might be pushed over the border back into bungalow daysh Uh, which is something they are obviously concerned and sensitive to the return of the rajapaksas in shri lanka who brought uh, who who actually engaged in that sort of Loving with love love fest with china that resulted in the whole hamantota debacle and whether they would Turn back to veijing in a way that was detrimental to india's interest Um, so one of the questions for the audience was also how would you assess? The neighborhood first policy and what do you think india? Uh should do as it looks forward and as the neighbors look with concern I'm sure at india china tensions and wonder what that means for how they manage relations with these two giant uh neighbors Well, it's true that you know the primary focus of our foreign policy has to be our neighborhood and despite the fact that you have seen The rise of china in our neighborhood and literally china Crossing the Himalayas into south asia as it were and also in shri lanka You've you've seen an increased presence in the Maldives for instance in afghanistan the fact is that You know the approach that india is increasingly beginning to take as far as its neighborhood first policy is concerned And you've seen that just the other day just a few days ago The united states and the Maldives signed a defense agreement You're aware of that a defense cooperation agreement now and in the old days You would have seen the indian attitude to that, you know, we don't want anybody in our backyard Even the use of the term backyard seems to be I think rather not the best best term to use But anyway, we would have reacted quite adversely or in a kind of a, you know Pavlovian fashion to to that happening But india was was quite all right with that with that Development and the united states and india had consulted with each other apparently before that and so, you know, there is this New approach and I think it's a mature. It's a wise. It's a well considered approach Where india is willing to work with friendly powers For instance, the united states when it comes to The policy outlook towards the region whether it when it comes to development when you talk of an asia africa growth corridor Whether it's working with japan or in colombo port for instance, you know now this defense cooperation agreement I noticed that and that the united states defense secretary mr. Espar And president go to buy a rajapaksa. I've just had a telephone conversation again, perhaps about defense Cooperation these are areas where india and the united states and other friendly countries can collaborate And if it is in a sense, it is reassuring to our neighbors Well, we want we would like to work in their interest also India and our foreign minister spoke to spoken about, you know, the balance the equilibrium that we want to create And that, you know, we want more connectivity. We want more infrastructure to be Able to integrate this region this region was integrated at 1.70 years ago And somehow over the decades that those ties have In a sense, we couldn't have trade and we need to build them again And why not work with friendly powers to do that that really is the approach now Yeah, that's a really interesting point because south asia by the numbers is the least integrated sort of sub region Probably possibly in the world It is and it's there's a lot of there's a lot of potential for building those ties and that might that might help address a whole number of concerns the the The next sort of circle there's all circles back to china, I think but the next the next area I really wanted to get your thoughts on was that this notion of the indopacific and india and the united states Partnering in support of what is, you know, being always being termed the free and open Indo pacific and a rules-based Order My question is do we mean the same things when we talk about free and open and rules-based orders? Have we defined what a rules-based order looks like in the 21st century for this region? I think there's a lot of value in thinking of the end of the pacific as an integrated as an integrated area Where countries with similar values and priorities can can cooperate and that's where the quad seems to be playing an Increasingly active role, but what is it? What do we where? Where are we in terms of really having a similar strategic vision? And obviously there's going to be differences in our in our priorities, even if we're cooperating So could you just address india's thinking? about the end of pacific and it's sort of increasing both look east policy and increasing activities with all of these great powers in the region Well, I Am I muted? No, you're good. Okay. I'm good well our the policy of regarding the free and open Indo pacific is concerned I think our views and those I mean when the united states speaks about a free and open Indo-Pacific and when you speak of a rule-based international order When you speak about freedom of navigation when you speak about codes of conduct when you speak of a peaceful Resolution of territorial disputes. I think we're both on the same page We're on the same side of history as it were India and the united states when it comes to the outlook that we have It may be so that as far as your strategic competition with china is concerned and And your traditional focus on the western pacific and east asia There we are we you know, we are in the different part of the region And we are our views are conditioned by a lot of what happens in our neighborhood We have our long land border with china. We have disputes to settle in that regard But there is this need also for that balancing that is required if we have to create that Deterrent to chinese aggression or chinese assertiveness or you know, this new Overzealous nationalism that we see and that's again a player an area where we need to work with Like-minded friendly powers. Just as I said in our neighborhood I just spoke in my previous answer about the way we need to work with friendly powers in our neighborhood And that's where the quad comes in for instance The quad is still I think a work in progress. It's still defining the parameters of its functioning It's still to define it's still You know perfecting or let's say finessing its agenda, but you know, we have made a beginning The ministers are talking. We are talking about this rule based international order All of us the four countries in quad the sea, you know, the complexities in dealing with china and how we we have to Understand we are I think developing Shared understanding it may not exactly be a common understanding because there will be Areas of emphasis and de-emphasis when it based on our own situations our own, you know The complexities that we face regarding china the emphasis that we want to give to some areas over the others But overall, I believe we share a certain approach Founded on shared democratic values and And principles also And the need to create an order in this region that is reassuring for the rest of the region also You know, we are not talking of a G zero situation where you don't have any power that counts in the region We're not talking of strict bipolarity also just between china and the united states There are a lot of middle powers in the region Including india that create their own poles of interest and influence. So it is this situation of of A plurilateral situation that let us call it or a multipolar situation where I believe this Concert of so many poles so much Multi-polarity in the region creates that room for maneuver vis-a-vis china But also through this process safeguards our security and doesn't you know, allow A situation to develop where china's You know flouting of the rules and it's Willful ignoring of you know, international law doesn't create complications for our future And for our peaceful development something that china is constantly stressing but seems to be constantly flouting also You know in southeast asia, I think there's a lot of potential for india to engage with a zion partners on how they're Perceiving the similar the similar dynamic that the stringing along you discuss when you think of the code of conduct negotiations Between a zion member states and china I think there's a sense among most of the a zion partners that china is just Just straight stretching things out and having talks that will lead to a meaningless A meaningless agreement Where the a zion countries are concerned, I think You know, there are levels of trust and mistrust of china I think nobody of course is perhaps speaking it saying it out loud Maybe some perhaps say it more than the others, you know, for instance, vietnam is a little more outspoken But I think the levels of trust of china and this is trust factor in the india pacific I think which is increasingly diminishing when it comes to china and that includes the a zion countries also Countries that are traditionally I think tended to perhaps take a more neutral More middle of the road approach when it comes to china but even that seems to be Seems to be a metamorphosizing now into something that signifies much lower levels of trust when it comes to china and is there a way that india can sort of Take in a strategic sense sort of Take advantage of that increasing common distrust In its engagement with a zion with countries like vietnam or malaysia or indonesia Definitely definitely. I think not only in the maritime domain not only when it comes to defense and security but also in terms of Of you know, this is a region with which india traditionally historically had the closest of relations I mean We have common histories So many ethnics so many linguistics so many cultural ties Don't forget this entire Indian ocean and you know the malacca straits This was an open sea and this is really what you need to restore today You know, this was an area where merchants, you know, transacted their trade and business and built this whole Concept of what we know is indochina. You know where india and china literally met but today unfortunately You know instead of having this Confluence as it were of civilizations that traditionally this history was built on You see more and more of a of a clash or more and more perhaps A kind of a tension developing within this what was once a common geographical cultural economic space That's very interesting because it's such a different historic perception than what the chinese put forward because the chinese basically put forward Most of this was a chinese lake rather than the victor said of an open Look at the clash line for instance. I mean, it's all or nothing There's no scope for give and take no scope for compromise no scope for mutually acceptable settlements Which is what makes the chinese attitude so concerning Well, one of the questions from the audience was around covet not sort of Not just impact on india and to a degree I do think china is seeing this as a moment of weakness for india because the economic of impact of covet will be so severe But it can press its advantage, but Do you see india? being able to use the covet crisis as a way to build cooperation with With the neighborhood with you know, especially with its immediate neighbors and even potentially with pakistan Where health could be something that is sort of held aside from the other kinds of concerns Well, I personally think there should be no political barriers when it comes to health and when it comes to public health policy And because the welfare of you know over a billion people in our region depends on it I'm not just talking of india alone But also of our neighbors and our prime minister as you know Just before you know the pandemic really hit us But at the at the outset we had this meeting of this of the sarc leaders as you know this kind of You know this this This discussion that the prime minister chaired to talk about how we could use Cooperation within the region to deal with the pandemic. So I think and at the scientific level. I believe that cooperation Continues must continue Because you know, we are all in this together really there are no Geographical or cartographic or political divisions when it comes to this but and then India's own You know, it's now sharing the world health assembly. It's now, you know in a position where I think it can offer It's not only good offices But also the the solid expertise that our own scientific establishment Can bring to bear on the crafting of Of of a global approach To meet the challenge of the pandemic It's an ongoing thing and you're working for instance on vaccine development. India is very much a part of the international The concert of countries that is working together to develop The set of cobit vaccines for instance india in many ways because of its pharmaceutical strengths is very well equipped look at the assistance that we've extended to over a hundred countries when it comes to therapeutic drugs to deal with cobit including to the united states, you know, as far as hydroxychloroquine Quinine was concerned hydroxychloroquine was concerned and in many of the antiviral drugs so, you know india's ability to be of Concrete Assistance is well recognized, but you know what concerns me again. I'm sorry to bring this back to to china Uh, the fact is that the virus did originate in china, you know, I'm not going to give it any names We're not here to to name the virus in one way or the other But the fact is cobit 19 is believed from all accounts to have originated in china and those first few crucial weeks when The the the disease the viral outbreak could have been contained better If so many people had not traveled out of Wuhan if there was not so much of an attempt to cover it up and to and to chastise and to Take action against those chinese brave chinese who spoke out about it, especially those doctors Like liwen yang and others who spoke out against Against the fact or not spoke out against but tried to throw light on this new virus. I wish you know Though that period Could have been handled better by the chinese government After china is a global power. It seeks super power stages But was its handling of those first few weeks china has to examine its own conscience on that I think However much it may have handled the pandemic or the or the virus later So this is also a question that's very troubling. I think for the world But I think in the long run. This should be an opportunity Covid and the fight against it to strengthen multilateral institutions And that's a message to the united states also. I think it's very essential that the united states should be a leading champion For multilateralism particularly multilateral cooperation to deal with threats to human security of this nature like diseases global pandemics of this nature You know, I don't mind that you brought it back to china because one one question was so the One of the big changes We've seen and the the handling of covid was I think a part of the driver towards this is a a big shift to Try to contain china's technological ambitions and india is now sort of the forefront because india has Banned chinese apps. It is banning and or restricting chinese investment in strategic Sectors. I I cannot imagine at this point that chinese 5g technology would become a part of india's 5g Push and even in europe and obviously from the united states And in australia and other places you're seeing a big shift from just six or eight months ago When most countries were saying we can manage and we'll have china ease and other Technologies, there's a big push to to sort of Uh Contain that part of china's global ambition Do you see india wanting to play a leadership role in those sorts of realms technological Norms cyber norms and that cyber security Or is india much more focused? Is it much more just an internal issue for india? No, it's not just an internal issue of course, you know national security and the And the safeguarding of critical infrastructure national infrastructure telecommunications being one of them is obviously essential We have to take necessary steps to ensure that our security is not diluted in any way And that's where the china factor comes in and you've seen the steps that we We are taking for instance on the 5g question. I don't believe Huawei will be involved at all in the in the You know introduction of 5g technology into india But this raises another issue the whole question of technology in a 21st century universe Involving our interaction with the outside world and this is where strategic partnerships come in You know technology being very much a part of all these strategic partnerships When it comes to our partnership with the united states with countries like germany and france with japan with australia You know when you talk of the quad when you you know quad you talk of the malabar exercises you talk of you know Defense and security related cooperation, but there are these aspects also To the to the to the partnerships that we build up Because how are we going to deal with a situation where the world is splintering? Really into these blocks in the chinese are building their own technology As far as these telecommunication Aspects are concerned the russians are trying to build their own internet as it were But you know we the democracies the you know this this alliance literally of liberty that we need to build up With like-minded countries that should safeguard our critical technologies for the future technologies on which our development is so critically dependent on Technologies where it is so easy for our adversaries to create severe crises in our ongoing you know efforts to become stronger and And and more developed I think these are all areas where we will have to think very very strategically in order to build partnerships where we can develop technologies In an atmosphere of complete trust and confidence And that really should become one of the new architectures really for for the future Well, we're running very close to the end of time. So i'm going to give you i'm going to throw three Questions from the audience at you together and you can answer any assortment of them that you want but um there And we'll we'll get to the end of our time with that Um, uh, the first was uh, did you do you expect india would india be at all look to involvement by outside parties or help from third parties in its Disputes for example sino-indian indo pakistan something india has never really wanted in the past That was that's question one question two is um, how do you see us india defense cooperation and deals Affecting the balance of power between china and india is it in is it sort of enough To help india be on par with china given china's military developments and the third Is on afghanistan, um when with the starting negotiations Most observers think a regional framework that supports any future Outcome is is critical that it won't work unless the region agrees and what do you see What is the indian viewpoint on what kind of regional framework might be able to sustain an afghan peace should that come So those are three questions. We have three minutes. So, uh, you can take all or one or none any up to you Well, where the first question is concerned and you're talking of You know, uh third party involvement or for mediation in as far as india's bilateral disputes are concerned Let's say with pakistan or with china. I don't foresee a scenario in which you will have active third party involvement when it comes to the resolution of these disputes and differences I think the focus and the preference and the approach that india takes will be bilateral It is true, of course that there will be like for instance now Concerning the situation with china whenever we've had problems with china take the 1962 conflict for instance but the united states was The first country really that that uh came to our assistance in terms of you know, sustaining and supporting The indian military at that point of time in 1960 and even today I believe the kind of intelligence sharing that goes on the kind of Very vocal expressions of support that we have received from the trump administration And the defense and security partnerships that we've built. I think They speak volumes about you know, the kind of The kind of support that india is receiving and the kind of uh, you know endorsement of india's policies that we We we receive from countries like the united states But then when it comes to disputes, I've presumed, you know, for instance with china We will have to face up to china ourselves. Secondly about I think the second the second question was Forgive the defense fields us india defense fields. Does it affect meaning? The defense and security partnership as I just mentioned with the united states is Extremely important and it has the grown in dimension strength and substance over the last decade decade and a half, you know So the united states an extremely crucially and very important Defense and security partner for the united states to what extent does it balance the threat from china if that was the question I think the chinese by virtue of the fact that the chinese themselves Being thin-skinned as they are show themselves to be so cabaret and concerned about The extent of our partnership for the united states itself is evidence of Of this creating a new balance in the region. Let us say a balance that has certainly deters Creates a deterrence against china in my view and the third thing about afghanistan. I think for peace real peace to return to afghanistan for the civil war to end and for the the The fruits of development that we've seen in afghanistan over the last 20 years to be sustained They will have to be regional cooperation. They will have to be a consolidation of like-minded Countries with the right attitude on this and pakistan unfortunately is a standout because it it doesn't want india to be involved in in such Initiatives as far as you know bringing stability to afghanistan Is concerned india has interests in afghanistan india's When we're on the side of the afghan people, we're not on the side of the taliban No doubt, but we're on the side of the afghan people and we want the afghan people to get the peace they deserve We want the projects the development activities that we Pursued in afghanistan three billion dollars worth of assistance that we gave afghanistan over the last two decades We want all that to continue. We don't want to you know Cut those links with afghanistan afghanistan is a neighbor. It's a part of south asia We share so much in common with the afghan people But for that we need collaboration. We need the pakistanis to be much more rational Much and that is where you know countries like china China, you know says it has the closest of relations with pakistan, but it is not acted responsibly I believe in terms of bringing influence to where you talked about, you know, can any third party You know create a situation where peace can be restored between india and pakistan Well, china is not able to advise pakistan I believe or a or at least doesn't bring to bear its influence on pakistan In order for it to take a more reasoned more rational More peace oriented attitude whether it comes to india or whether it comes to afghanistan But I think the russians the chinese the pakistanis the iranians That is after the united states withdraws from the region And india, I think we need we should be able to work together for the good of the afghan people To what extent the taliban will play ball. That really is the is the question You know, they don't haven't inspired much confidence Well, this is uh, let's let's certainly hope for that. I think that's a that's a that's a very hopeful Note to end on the region trying to come together to support the afghan people who have suffered who have suffered so much We've hardly touched on issues. I would have loved to get to russia Iran any others But before I let you go I just wanted to give you an opportunity to mention one of your projects that I think is quite amazing Which is the south asia orchestra and I know we've gone a little over But could you just share with our audience a little bit about what you've been doing? In terms of building bridges because you have always been a bridge builder And someone who believes in the power of people to sort of transcend differences and make a better future So if you could just share a little bit on that and then we'll then we'll sign off Oh, thank you. Thank you, big group. That's really nice of you to raise that now the south asian symphony orchestra I created it. It was really inspired by the east western divan orchestra that the israelis and palestinians have And which was created by edward sayid and daniel barron boy So when I looked at south asia and I looked I mean the eight nations of south asia from afghanistan The moldy shri lanka nipal van vadesh butan India nipal all of us together. There's such a lack of Communication at the popular level I felt between all of us And why not use music and music is something I've always loved and use it as a medium to bring Young people of the region together. So I and my husband and I We established a foundation in bangalore called the south asian symphony foundation two years ago And over the last two years we have created a whole database of musicians from the countries of the region That together constitute the south asian symphony orchestra, which we call chirag Which is a in the stari word which means Lamp a lamp that illuminates the darkness around us So we've had two concerts full-fledged orchestral concerts of chirag in mumbai in bangalore in 2019 and the idea is to Use music to make peace notes as we call it peace notes that bring The count all these countries together inspired by the spirit of Leaders like mahatma ganvi. I think who means a lot to the whole region whose memory is still revealed around the world And so that really is the south asian symphony orchestra Which makes peace notes in a region where we don't see too much peace and we see very little communication We're trying to teach or at least help south asians cultivate the art of listening to each other communicating with each other and Overcoming stereotypes and prejudices It's a beautiful vision. It's a hopeful vision. I've always enjoyed Both diplomacy and music with you and your family and it is it's really It's a it's a terrific thing to see people can you can google it you can learn more about it You will find poetry. You will find even albums recorded by ambassador ralh. So you you there are there are many more facets here We're so grateful to you for joining us Today, this has been a terrific session. Thank you to our audience members for being a part of it Sorry, I let the the scope a few minutes over and thank you for being generous with your time And let's hope to do this in person very soon Thank you so much vikram and thank you to Vice president wilder and to all of you at the usip. Thank you so much Thank you ambassador